Jump to content
IGNORED

Kenwright, Is He Similar To Gillete & Hicks?


Louis

Recommended Posts

I've come to the conclusion your a tosser, and fook the grammar you silly boy. And thats an opinion.

You came to that conclusion many months ago and you let everyone know it in every post you write so it's not exactly big news, but thanks for clarifying.

Edited by carlmc25
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 106
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I agree with all that and that's fair enough, but I also trust in Kenwright wanting what is best for this club. We'd all love to stay at Goodison or in the heart of the city (ie not Speke) and Kenwright must know how unpopular Kirkby is and how if it goes wrong he will be forever blamed, but he thinks it's the right thing to do and he must be getting advised by some of the most respected names in the business, rather than the man on the street or on the phone-ins. The Liverpool Council may come out with all these big noises about sites, but it was too little, too late - and after seeing the city council voted as the worst in the country twice recently I have little faith in their claims anyway. The Kirkby deal will have a lifespan, if we don't go for it now someone else will snap up the land and we're left with no back-up plan apart from redeveloping Goodison which will cost a fortune, a fortune we don't have.

 

It basically comes down to who you believe, Kenwright and his team of experts, or the man on the street who knows little of what actually goes on behind the scenes. I believe Kenwright.

 

I'll not go into this in this thread but Kenwright has offered nothing to believe, everything has already changed from what was initially said and we havent even got planning permission yet!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"You came to that conclusion many months ago and you let everyone know it in every post you write so it's not exactly big news, but thanks for clarifying."

 

 

 

 

You clarified it yourself by your antics on this board. Droning on about how right you are and how everbody must prove why they think the way they do. I think you should look at yourself very closely and ask, "Why does'nt anybody like me".

Your right about one thing i did make my mind up months ago, after your first post actually and i warned you then that nobody likes a clever dick or a smart arse and you left in a childish tantrum because i had the nerve to speak honestly, but it obviously didnt register because you came back to this board even worse than you were before you left. What happened ? did all the other Forums tell you exactly the same as me. Stop questioning peoples opinions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll not go into this in this thread but Kenwright has offered nothing to believe, everything has already changed from what was initially said and we havent even got planning permission yet!

I still prefer it to the alternative which seems to be: sitting back and doing nothing, but crossing our fingers hoping that we do get 4th, we continue to keep hold of Moyes and operate in the upper reaches of the league (with teams like Villa, City, Liverpool getting major investment) and hope that some mega wealthy businessman decides to take pity on us and buy us out of the goodness of his heart.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still prefer it to the alternative which seems to be: sitting back and doing nothing, but crossing our fingers hoping that we do get 4th, we continue to keep hold of Moyes and operate in the upper reaches of the league (with teams like Villa, City, Liverpool getting major investment) and hope that some mega wealthy businessman decides to take pity on us and buy us out of the goodness of his heart.

 

 

Do you honestly believe that we'll have a massive amount of financial clout just because we get a tin pot stadium? I don't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"You came to that conclusion many months ago and you let everyone know it in every post you write so it's not exactly big news, but thanks for clarifying."

You clarified it yourself by your antics on this board. Droning on about how right you are and how everbody must prove why they think the way they do. I think you should look at yourself very closely and ask, "Why does'nt anybody like me".

Your right about one thing i did make my mind up months ago, after your first post actually and i warned you then that nobody likes a clever dick or a smart arse and you left in a childish tantrum because i had the nerve to speak honestly, but it obviously didnt register because you came back to this board even worse than you were before you left. What happened ? did all the other Forums tell you exactly the same as me. Stop questioning peoples opinions.

I never went on any other forums, so er no. I used to be on the bbc club messageboards (which were mainly excellent) until they shut down. I've gone out of my way not to argue with you Licker, or get personal - I think you should take a look at yourself to be honest. You consistently get personal, you consistently use abusive language and reply to nearly everything I write. You just can't stop yourself and seem to get wound up by everything I say, why? I couldn't give a rat's ass what you say about me or whether I'm popular on an internet message board, I have more meaningful things in life and enough real friends not to worry about people on here. I come on because I get sick of some of the absolute rubbish the likes of you spout, influencing young minds who don't know better but than to listen to people stuck in the past. I come on to give them a different viewpoint, I say exactly what I believe and always have - if others disagree then fine, but hopefully some people who may just listened to what you say unquestioned may actually now think for themselves and make their own judgements. Once again you've managed to turn this into a slanging match by taking digs (don't go on about it again etc), no doubt I'll get the blame due to buddy culture - hi Bill, hey we're first name term buddies - but you're the one who was looking for this argument, like usual.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do you honestly believe that we'll have a massive amount of financial clout just because we get a tin pot stadium? I don't.

no, but we will have a brand new stadium at little cost, which doesn't need hundreds of millions to rebuild so we will then be a far more attractive proposition to an outside buyer. That's the theory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"You came to that conclusion many months ago and you let everyone know it in every post you write so it's not exactly big news, but thanks for clarifying."

You clarified it yourself by your antics on this board. Droning on about how right you are and how everbody must prove why they think the way they do. I think you should look at yourself very closely and ask, "Why does'nt anybody like me".

Your right about one thing i did make my mind up months ago, after your first post actually and i warned you then that nobody likes a clever dick or a smart arse and you left in a childish tantrum because i had the nerve to speak honestly, but it obviously didnt register because you came back to this board even worse than you were before you left. What happened ? did all the other Forums tell you exactly the same as me. Stop questioning peoples opinions.

 

I think he puts across a good opinion and agree with a lot of what he says.

 

So are you saying anyone who doesn't agree with you should not visit the forum? That'll do wonders for the forum...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

no, but we will have a brand new stadium at little cost, which doesn't need hundreds of millions to rebuild so we will then be a far more attractive proposition to an outside buyer. That's the theory.

 

Your being blinded by propeganda Carl the stadium will cost 200mil so with Tesco's 50mil in the pot we will need to find 150mil.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your being blinded by propeganda Carl the stadium will cost 200mil so with Tesco's 50mil in the pot we will need to find 150mil.

if that is true then obviously that puts a different perspective on things, where did you hear that? As far as I knew, we were only paying something like £20-50m for the stadium?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

if that is true then obviously that puts a different perspective on things, where did you hear that? As far as I knew, we were only paying something like £20-50m for the stadium?

 

Just to clarify something mate,

 

You didnt know we sold Finch Farm & You dont know the details of what the stadium is projected to cost but you still defend these people and claim Kenwright / Kirkby is the answer to our prayers?

 

They are spoon feeding you information in the hope that you wont question it and by the looks of things you havent!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've never heard that we only had to put 20-50 mil in.

 

ive only heard What Goldfish said.

 

Carl you better get looking down the back of the sofa for sum loose change.

I quote (from Terry Leahy - Tesco guy, to Evertonians):

 

Clearly it’s possible to lift the stadium design for Kirkby (or one like it) and drop it onto Goodison or the loop site – and in my heart as a fan, it looks nice. But unless the club is offered a concrete proposal to own a £150 million stadium for around £35 million investment by Everton, and delivered by 2010 / 11 then I’m afraid it is not a realistic option.

 

The stadium is supposed to cost around £150-200m, but we're only meant to be paying about £35m, that's where I'm getting my figures from.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I quote (from Terry Leahy - Tesco guy, to Evertonians):

 

Clearly it’s possible to lift the stadium design for Kirkby (or one like it) and drop it onto Goodison or the loop site – and in my heart as a fan, it looks nice. But unless the club is offered a concrete proposal to own a £150 million stadium for around £35 million investment by Everton, and delivered by 2010 / 11 then I’m afraid it is not a realistic option.

 

The stadium is supposed to cost around £150-200m, but we're only meant to be paying about £35m, that's where I'm getting my figures from.

 

I cant be arsed finding the quote but the same bloke has confirmed Tesco will be paying 50mil only so by your sums when we start digging in Kirkby we need to dig up 115mil in order to have enough cash for the stad.

 

Yes I know it doesnt make sense thats why we are questioning, not because we dont want this but because there are contradictions in ever release of info so which is correct? The safe option is to demand the truth not sit back and praise Kenwright!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to clarify something mate,

 

You didnt know we sold Finch Farm & You dont know the details of what the stadium is projected to cost but you still defend these people and claim Kenwright / Kirkby is the answer to our prayers?

 

They are spoon feeding you information in the hope that you wont question it and by the looks of things you havent!

I'm still waiting for where this £150m figure is coming from? I believe official statements not rumour, if you know something different then I'd like to know the source so I can check up on it.

 

To further quote Leahy (a very successful businessman and Evertonian who knows what he is doing)

 

I have heard it suggested that a ‘no’ vote for Kirkby would precipitate a change at the club, and thereby increase the likelihood of new investment. I have two reactions; first Bill Kenwright, Keith Wyness and David Moyes have turned a relegation side into a European side, something that a number of better invested clubs have failed to do. Second, the prospect of outside investment in the club is massively increased by the Kirkby proposal. Without it, any prospective investor knows that the first £150 million of investment would have to go into a stadium, with nothing to show on the pitch. With Kirkby, new investment could go straight into the team, with the prospect of a return by way of better results.

 

One final point, in my business life I have learned the most valuable commodity is trust. Without it you don’t have much to build on. I may not always like it, but I’ve learned to trust the people closest to issues to make the best judgement. When the Board, the manager and the leading players of Everton are unanimous that a move to Kirkby is right, I know they have the best interest of the club at heart and I trust their judgement. Whichever way I look at it, the heart says Goodison but the head says Kirkby.

 

I agree with all that, he's an intelligent guy who doesn't make many bad decisions. But as I say, if you have any hard evidence to prove your claims of £150m are accurate then that would make things very different, but I think you have actually misread the costs involved.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I cant be arsed finding the quote but the same bloke has confirmed Tesco will be paying 50mil only so by your sums when we start digging in Kirkby we need to dig up 115mil in order to have enough cash for the stad.

 

Yes I know it doesnt make sense thats why we are questioning, not because we dont want this but because there are contradictions in ever release of info so which is correct? The safe option is to demand the truth not sit back and praise Kenwright!

So basically what you said was all speculation and what I said was based on official press statements, yet somehow I should believe what you're saying? Tesco may only be paying £50 because isn't a large part of the funding supposed to be done through tesco vouchers or something similar? Maybe the council chip in, all I know is Everton are only supposed to be funding £35m of the stadium cost - if that is true then that is a quite frankly AMAZING deal and I don't know how anyone in Kenwright's position could turn it down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think turning the club around is a pretty big thing he has done for the club. Moyes has turned this club around, but who chose Moyes? Kenwright that's who. Who gave Moyes his transfer funds, risking plunging us into debt? Kenwright that's who. Who's been chairman for our most successful seasons in the last 20 years? Kenwright that's who. Who has managed to get us a quite incredible deal with Tesco for a new staidum when there were no other viable options out there and we couldn't afford to redevelop? Kenwright that's who.

 

How did he miss out on millions with Rooney? He was a young kid who had done virtually nothing for Everton and we sold him for £20m plus add-ons, it was a fantastic deal and the biggest single factor why Everton are now challenging for Europe when we were going nowhere fast with Rooney in the team.

 

The lack of appreciation for Kenwright I find nothing short of disgraceful, here is a man who didn't have to rescue us from the Johnson debacle, but stepped in even though he didn't have the most money in the world and saved us. Being a chairman does actually involve some work you know, he doesn't just mess around all day smoking cigars and laughing it up, he puts the time in, he's at every match supporting the players, he's stuck by Moyes even when the fans were getting twitchy and he's also managed to keep hold of Moyes for years.

 

Kenwright says he would sell if someone came in with the right offer, no one has - that's not his fault. If Kenwright walked out on Everton now and then Moyes left we'd plummet faster than a stone down a well, it's what some fans deserve for their lack of respect and gratitude. Moyes and Kenwright have my 100% support, they've made some mistakes - who hasn't - but they've done a lot more good than bad. But you just can't please some fans.

 

In what ways could Kenwright actually be doing a better job, by nailing himself to a cross?

 

I had to stop reading there as i needed to clean up the mess after i pissed myself laughing!

the word deluded comes to mind, or maybe misinformed, im not sure anymore!

 

but it doesnt matter because as always, carls opinion is correct and we shall all rot in hell for disagreeing with him!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tesco's have said that no money at all will be handed over to Everton, the £50 million pounds thats been bandied about is the money they will hand over to Knowsley Council for the land.

Tesco's where refused permission to build until they got Everton on board, but you have to ask yourself are we jumping in on Tesco's back, or are they jumping in on ours, either way a Stadium is going to cost at least £250 million quid to build, so where do you think that money is going to come from. ?

 

 

PS .... We have all gone way off topic here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had to stop reading there as i needed to clean up the mess after i pissed myself laughing!

the word deluded comes to mind, or maybe misinformed, im not sure anymore!

 

but it doesnt matter because as always, carls opinion is correct and we shall all rot in hell for disagreeing with him!

 

maybe it's you who is misinformed Stevo, ever thought of that? I quote, from a well respected expert - rather than some guy on the internet who probably gets all his info from the Star, rumour or football phone-ins:

 

Dear Chairman.

 

You’ll recall that two years ago I was elected as a “special advisor” to the Board at the club’s Annual General Meeting, so it is only right that I give you my advice on the proposed Ground move.

 

I am, also, writing to you because so many of my fellow Evertonians have asked my views on this crucial issue. I guess this reflects not only my role of a Business School Dean, but my long term – and very public – interest in sports finance.

Like every Blue, I feel many emotions. Some of the best nights and days of my life were at Goodison; against Fulham, when we won our first post-war title, against Bayern and the 4-4 against Liverpool. Goodison was great – but even greater were the players and the fans. I want my children and grandchildren to look forward to the same kind of success so I’ve looked closely at the case for the move to Kirkby and the alternatives.

 

Sir Terry Leahy has already completed some of the analysis I would normally make. He flags the scale of the Kirkby development – 80 acres against our current 7 acres and the slightly larger (than Goodison) Scotland Road Site – with all that means for development and new finance. He highlights the £150 million cost of the same stadium as a stand-alone project against £35M the Kirkby development is likely to cost Everton.

 

Looking at the alternative sites to Kirkby, it is hard to see how the costs to the club could be kept below £150 Million. The contribution of local and corporate partners is crucial to keeping the costs to the club down. I admire Sir Mohammed Anwar Pervez and his achievements at Bestway, but there is a world of difference between its financial capacity and that of Tesco. According to the latest figures Tesco’s profits are twice Bestway’s total turnover! At £4 billion, its profits are fifty times greater than Bestway’s £73 million profits.

 

It is hard to see how Bestway could provide significant financial support, when a £150 million stadium development would pretty well wipe out their entire profits for the last three years! Similar comments can be made about the local authorities. Here, I confess to some personal interests. Although I was born and lived off Stanley Road, my family – like so many Liverpudlians – was moved to Kirkby by the Council when I was eleven. Even now, although my company is based on Rodney Street, I have worked with Knowsley Council and found it an outstanding partner, as have Ford, Vertex, QVC and a host of others.

 

I don’t doubt Warren Bradley’s sincerity, but I question his ability to deliver his promises about funding, planning permissions, access roads etc. I remember the Kings’ Dock and the apparent promises about planning permission around Goodison and developments around the planned arena. Working on Rodney Street, I am acutely aware of the problems faced by the Mathew Street Festival, The Fourth Grace, The Tram etc. I am, also, aware that Warren’s already going cap in hand to Gordon Brown to cover a £20 million deficit on the Capital of Culture.

 

I am less than encouraged that a key role in Everton’s future will be played by Jason Harborrow, the Council’s newly appointed Executive Director for Culture, Media and Sport. We know him best, of course, as the Chief Executive of the Culture Company.

This means that I must conclude that the sites in Liverpool require that the club must fund any new ground development here out of its own resources. That means finding at least £150 million, plus any lost income while the parts of Goodison are redeveloped if the “redevelop at Goodison” option is pursued.

 

This raises some of the greatest concerns that I have about the future not just about Everton, but about many other top flight clubs in England. Despite the new money coming into the game through television, increased ticket prices, merchandising, Premier League clubs (if we include the risk investments of new owners) are massively in debt with total indebtedness now over £3 Billion or roughly the total Premier League TV income for the next 3 years.

 

I want Everton to be relatively debt free, if the feared financial crunch happens and Hedge Funds (already under pressure from crashing stock markets) and others start demanding their “pound of flesh” from new investors in the Premier League.

Every ½% increase in interest charges costs a club borrowing £150 Million an extra £1 Million a year– we’ve had four of these increases over the last year –on top of the £10 million required to service the basic debt for a stadium costing £150 million, plus any other of the club’s debts.

 

The Kirkby alternative will involve debt, but using Sir Terry’s figure of £35 Million, an annual outlay of around £2.5 Million to service the basic debt for the stadium against at least £11 Million for the Scotland Road site. Even staying at Goodison with no redevelopment costs but lost revenues from obstructed views, limited executive facilities, weak local amenities etc. is expensive. The table below answers many questions for me.

 

Comparing the three most widely touted alternatives and using conservative estimates of income and expenditure, the move can give us a minimum of £6.5 Million a year more than we have now to spend on players and other developments. The Scotland Road loop would actually mean £4.5M less than we have now or £11M annually less than Kirkby, even if we assume, as I do here, bigger average gates at that site.

 

Besides this, the likely two year delay could cost the club around £15 Million in lost income and added costs. Similar analysis for a redeveloped Goodison indicates that this is the most expensive option with the lowest returns. Over the next 5-6 years, the Scotland Road site would reduce Everton’s spending power by £50 million compared to Kirkby.

 

 

 

Kirkby Scotland Road Undeveloped Goodison

Costs Annual £M £M £M

Debt Servicing 2.5 11 0

Obstructed Views - - 1

Operating costs -1 0 0.5

Total 1.5 11 1.5

Net Additional Annual

Gate 4 4.5 0

Executive 2 2 0

Amenity Development car parks etc 2 0 0

Total 8 6.5 0

Balance +6.5 -4.5 -1.5

 

I’ll always remember the glory days and nights, but if I want my grandchildren to have more glory days and nights from the great players we can sign – rather than the bank charges we can pay – for me Tesco and Knowsley is undoubtedly the best choice.

I confirm, however, that whatever the outcome of the vote, wherever we play – I’ll support Everton.

Yours truly, Professor Tom Cannon. (20/08/07)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tesco's have said that no money at all will be handed over to Everton, the £50 million pounds thats been bandied about is the money they will hand over to Knowsley Council for the land.

Tesco's where refused permission to build until they got Everton on board, but you have to ask yourself are we jumping in on Tesco's back, or are they jumping in on ours, either way a Stadium is going to cost at least £250 million quid to build, so where do you think that money is going to come from. ?

PS .... We have all gone way off topic here.

did you read my post, numbers weren't bandied about - I quoted the open letter from the Tesco CEO to Everton fans. This is not rumour or conjecture or open to misinterpretation, he said the stadium would cost us £35m - fact. The whole development may cost £400, but the stadium should cost about £150 when opened, £200 when finished, and will cost us £35m. That is what we have been told, if it's a lie then it's a lie, but for now that's all we have to go on so why question it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Carl, Nobody is going to read that btw.

 

Do you not find it funny how Everybody here seems to know that Tesco have put 50million in ( For the land) and you're the only one who thinks Tesco are buying the whole Shindig and we give 'em 20 mil!

I don't really care where the rest of the money is coming from, all I care is what we're paying and we've been told by all sources that it's approx £35m. If Everton don't invest in a new stadium we may end up like Marine, we can't afford to redevelop Goodison.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really care where the rest of the money is coming from, all I care is what we're paying and we've been told by all sources that it's approx £35m. If Everton don't invest in a new stadium we may end up like Marine, we can't afford to redevelop Goodison.

 

Ever considered the 35mil is the initial investement??

 

I cant find the press releases but hows this?

 

After explaining what Tesco is contributing to the project, a specific stadium cost of £110M is finally mentioned in Terry Leahy’s open letter, this is later confirmed by Keith Wynes as the true net cost of the stadium. Keith Wyness is confident, some would say over confident, that the sale of Goodison, £15M, and naming rights, minimum £25M, will raise a combined £40M in contribution towards that cost, this leaves a figure of £70M which needs to be accounted for through a combination of vague “discounts” and some unspecified long term debt taken on by Everton. Perhaps Barr’s new owners (sold in June 2007, a fact conveniently omitted) wont want to build a stadium for nothing. They are, remember, a business who operate in a low margin industry and whose profits are measured in single million figures.

 

If this all adds up to you then good luck but it doesnt add up to me. Also the mention of naming rights above also highlights the fact that KW plans to spend a large part of our "increased revenue stream" up front on the actual stadium leaving no money for players and the like which was the purpose of the move in the first place.

 

Anyway back on topic, this confusion is one of the jewels in Kenwright's crown. I think not!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

im only half way through reading so this may be off topic now, but carl you say we have a small catchment area, then say we should move to a smaller one in kirkby!

 

the deal is too good to be true? its still gunna cost £150m!

how?! The deal was originally stated as this:

 

Kirkby/Knowsley council (whoever it is!) give the land to Tesco (worth £50m)

Tesco then pay £50m towards the stadium (worth £75m in reality as they have a deal with the stadium builders)

 

this equates to £125m of the £150-200m that the stadium is projected at costing, leaving us with 25-75m, minus the £15m we'll get for the Goodison land.

 

Now there are some rumours that Tesco aren't paying £50m towards the stadium, but towards the land - but at the same time this £50m they're giving to the council for the land, the council are using to part fund the stadium. This means that the numbers are still the same it's just a grey area who is paying for what, but Everton's input has remained the same, approx £35m. We won't be paying £150m for the stadium, we can't afford it! That's why we want to move to Kirkby as it's so cheap!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...