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#1 jofanon

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 09:58

Just doesn't look much of a threat at the moment does he? He is record is terrible this season.

Are we not playing to his strengths or is he not playing well? Or is he simply not good enough?
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#2 CraccerC

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 10:06

i think everyone is a little harsh on him, he works hard because he's forced to, the injuries of our key players has had an affect. don't forget when everyone was fit, he was on the bench most of the time, he didn't get the service that the yak got, and he actually scored a few coming off the bench.

our problem with aj is, there's manny, arteta and pienaar that can play the balls and have the vision that aj need, we miss pienaar, manny isn't fit, and arteta has been in a bit of a slump. cahill aswell, although he's got less creativity and passing ability than my penis, his nack for finding the right positions and causign problems hasnt' really been there of late, and if you remember when aj was at his best last season, it was when he had cahill there playing well to help him out a bit.

i don't think it's entirely fair to jump on aj yet, don't forget also he scored the other week, a very well taken goal and had it taken off him.... that'll dent his confidence a bit, and it's easily forgotten but it was a perfectly good goal. he did pretty well last night aswell without scoring i thought, took a few defenders on, did fairly well for ossies goal, looked a bit more like the old aj.
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#3 Everton_Worshiper

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 10:09

AJ spent most of the game running into the backs of defenders, looks like he has lost his pace and cannot hit the ball with any venom - just look at his poor shots in the first half.

Not cutting it and owuld prefer Vis or Vaughan ahead of him judging on his current form....any wonder he is not even mentioned in the England squad either.

Edited by Everton_Worshiper, 14 Feb 2008 - 10:10.

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#4 CraccerC

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 10:17

i recall a few decent runs of his, and his cross for ossies goal was dangerous. i don't have a problem with him. i don't understand why everyone singles out the striker when we all know the midfield is a bag of shite atm....if you want to have a go at someone, why not cahill...he's been your actual fucking shite of late. or is he protected because he's scored a few important goals in the past.

frustrates me when people have a go at strikers that aren't getting service. i'm not by a long shot his biggest fan, i wanted to sell him to west ham don't forget, but you can't blame a striker for not scoring when he's not getting the service....if he gets a run with pienaar, manny and arteta all fit and well, we shall see but no striker would be banging goals in with our midfield at the moment.
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#5 Everton_Worshiper

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 10:25

Cahill was shite and I said as much in the match report but still a striker is always remembered for the goals they score rather than the assists.
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#6 carlmc25

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 10:26

I've been worried for some time about AJ's performances. Believe it or not when I used to be on the old bbc boards I was desperate for us to sign AJ, arguing with people about how we need him more than Robbie Keane etc as we needed AJ's pace etc. When he first signed he looked dangerous, but as time has gone on it's become apparent that he isn't very fast, his anticipation isn't very good, his control isn't very good, when he's faced one on one with a defender he usually just shoots and hopes for the best and in general play he isn't anything special (no real touch or vision to speak of). He works hard, but usually jogging after players until they pass to someone else, he doesn't exactly get stuck in like Vaughan, he can't win a header and unfortunately (for AJ) Yakubu has come in and shown AJ up for what he is, a half decent striker who is starting to look out of his depth now Everton have good players. Yes he hasn't had a lot of service as Craccer outlined, but sometimes it's a two way street, AJ needs to keep hold of the ball, AJ needs to make the runs, AJ needs to be in the right place at the right time - and the bottom line is he isn't doing enough. On his form over the last 12 months I wouldn't pay even £6m for him never mind £9. We need to get rid of him quick otherwise his value will plummet as it can only be a matter of time before he is 4th choice.

Yakubu is the real deal, Vaughan looks incredibly promising and Anichebe gives us options and when he gets a chance it usually goes in, we don't need an expensive underperformer on the bench when we have other areas of the team that need strengthening. I just hope Moyes doesn't become afraid to drop him for Vaughan/Anichebe because he cost big money.
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#7 Romey 1878

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 10:59

If you don't get the chances you can't score. I thought he looked very lively last night. He ran with the ball and held it up at times for the midfield to catch up to the hoof. And his touch looked a lot better than it has done in the past. AJ hasn't been brilliant but the blame cannot lie totally with him, our midfield is dessimated atm and without service you will not score. He can't even create a chance for himself because he has to chase ball after ball into the corner. It's no fucking wonder he has no pace when he's asked to run at players, the lad will be knackered.
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#8 EFCfanatic

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 10:59

Difficult one this but I'm leaning to agree with Craccer. His work rate is second to none and while it is obvious strikers will get judged by how many goals they score he has not had any service. True he has missed a few chances but those chances arose with the through balls he thrives on e.g. manny through ball vs spurs. Look at the 'goal' vs Blackburn he really kept his head not to lash the ball but take it round Kishanishvilli or whatever the fcuk he's called. Bottom line in my opinion is if you take him out of our team we would be a worse one. We don't have another striker like him. Vaughan, Vic and Yak are quite similar in their ways. AJ forces defenders into mistakes and will chase lost causes when Neville provides them! He helps us build attacks and can help us create something out of nothing. He's always there or thereabout. He needs our support over this. If he would have played exactly the way he has and would have scored the spurs chance and Rovers goal would have counted I'm sure there wouldn't be such a thread as this.

Edited by EFCfanatic, 14 Feb 2008 - 11:00.

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#9 CraccerC

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 11:07

finally a few people who agree.

and yes everton_worshiper that is how strikers are remember....but still doesn't change the fact you can't score if you don't have the service.

he works so hard, because he tries to create chances himself because others are seemingly incapable....his run and ball in for ossies goal and yakubu's through ball made it all possible, the link up play.
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#10 Blue 250

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 11:25

AJ's main problem is lack of service, or at least the type of service that would show him at his best!
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#11 jamiemaher85

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 12:54

When we get our creative players back then we can properly judge him., AJ hasn't been given a fair crack of the whip while we have had our best creative players available to us. I.e- Arteta and Pienaar down the wings and manny through the middle. If he continues to fail to score with ample service then it would be ok to criticise, but to vilafie him for last night, where he was one of our only players to try and move with the ball, is stupid.
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#12 chicagoblue

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 16:22

Thought he played really well last night, made one particularly great trap and turn in the first half on the right side. Made good passes, kept possession well enough. His shot has looked weak, but 25 yarders were never his strength. When the ball falls to him in the box he'll put it in again. We just haven't had any quality deliver of late.

If it had been AJ instead of Vic tapping in he'd of done just as well (and stayed onside....)
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#13 jacko1990

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 16:50

im not his biggest fan but i have to agree with you all, 'You cant Shoot a Rabbit with no Bullets'
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#14 carlmc25

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 16:51

people seem to be forgetting that he was clean through on goal against Spurs and hit it straight at the keeper, had an absolute sitter against Reading and missed - it's not as if nothing has been created for him, it's partly because you can never rely on him to put the ball away on those rare occasions he does get chances. To say AJ needs to play because there is no one similar is well wide of the mark, Vaughan is virtually the identikit player, except quicker, more aggressive, better on the ball, better in the air and works just as hard. Yakubu is the one who is irreplaceable at the moment, he has touch, guile, vision, strength and is absolutely clinical - our other strikers possess few of those attributes. The only attribute AJ has is workrate, big whup. Also, to credit him for last nights goal is a bit generous, he did ok and put a fairly decent cross in, but Osman was still outside the box when he scored an absolute beauty, I'd say the goal owed as much to the pass of Yakubu, the tackle of Cahill as it did to AJ, but 90% of the credit goes to Osman for incredible technique, one thing's for certain, had it dropped to AJ it wouldn't have been a goal.

You can't lay all the blame at the midfielders feet for not creating chances, he's hardly scored any goals for us for the last 12 months, not just this season. As I said earlier, it's hard to create a goalscoring chance when the only forward you have on the pitch is lightweight, has poor anticipation, hardly ever even jumps for a header never mind wins one, has average at best touch and control, isn't very fast and isn't very often in the right place at the right time - maybe having AJ up front is part of the reason why the midfield isn't playing well. It's a two way street imo. I am getting very frustrated at seeing AJ running into no mans land time and time again, I personally think he's turning into the new Radzinski.
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#15 savo

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 17:31

fink thats abit harsh on him he aint been getting service at all proves it due to you only being able to cum up wid two times hes missed shows how little chances he has had the midfield has been poor and when they were playing well yak was choosen over him so didnt get alot of chances at all only time will tell
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#16 carlmc25

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 17:53

fink thats abit harsh on him he aint been getting service at all proves it due to you only being able to cum up wid two times hes missed shows how little chances he has had the midfield has been poor and when they were playing well yak was choosen over him so didnt get alot of chances at all only time will tell

yeah but they weren't exactly half chances (which he also had against Chelsea) they were clear cut chances which a decent striker would bury 9 times out of 10, if he had've scored them then he would have had about 3 goals in his last 5 games - which no striker could complain about, instead he has 1 and even that went through the keepers legs slightly fortunately imo. Yes he scored a goal against Blackburn that was disallowed, but the bottom line is it didn't count!

If we didn't have Vaughan sitting on the bench then I'd settle for having AJ as back up, but we do have Vaughan who is in every way better than AJ so really AJ is just an unnecessary expensive asset that we need to cash in on. Replace him with someone of genuine quality who can maybe play on the wing as well.

I'll leave it at that! :D
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#17 Blue 250

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 18:26

Moyes isn't blind!...he probably knows better than most of us on here that James Vaughan is a great potential.........So whats he doing not playing him?

Well I recon he's getting it right!

We won last night without him......oh! he was there watching and learning and I think had we gone a goal down we would have seen him come on.Victors a big strong lad who's not as injury prone as Vaughan and he's ALWAYS good for a goal on European night ;) so the night at 1-0 was made for him.
Vaughans time is coming, but nice and easy I say!....If he's lucky with injuries, he's going to score plenty of goals for us.....and as Yakubu say's "you can see Victor improving in training" could we see a deverstating partenership in the making?

Anichebe and Vaughans styles are so different they could be the perfect foil.....or Moyes could change the shape of the team by brining one on for the other, If, he didn't want to start them together.

If all four strikers AJ,Yakubu,Anichebe and Vaughan were fit!......what an option for Moyes!
Andy Johnsons still got a big role at Everton!
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#18 MikeO

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Posted 14 Feb 2008 - 22:22

.....as time has gone on it's become apparent that he isn't very fast....


You keep saying that Carl but the facts say different...

"Everton striker Andrew Johnson is the second fastest player in the Premier League!

Johnson is second only to Manchester United’s Portuguese attacker Cristiano Ronaldo, who is a mere 0.3mph faster than the Everton striker.

These stats are based on the latest findings from Opta, who record an array of facts and statistics based on Premier League football.

The likes of Aston Villa’s Gabriel Agbonlahor and Newcastle’s Michael Owen do not appear in the top ten list, with the standings calculated by recording a player’s top speed when chasing the ball and also their pace when in control of the ball.

AJ has been clocked racing to the ball at 20.6mph, increasing to 20.7mph when in control of the ball.

Johnson is ahead of England colleagues Ashley Young, Aaron Lennon, Jermaine Defoe, Shaun Wright-Phillips and Joe Cole in the list."


I think he's struggling for confidence at the mo for sure, but he'll be back imo.
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#19 jacko1990

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 00:02

aaron Lennon is fastest player in the Prem no matter what opta say.
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#20 savo

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 00:55

he was spose to have had trainning from darren campbell
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#21 carlmc25

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 00:56

You keep saying that Carl but the facts say different...

"Everton striker Andrew Johnson is the second fastest player in the Premier League!

Johnson is second only to Manchester United’s Portuguese attacker Cristiano Ronaldo, who is a mere 0.3mph faster than the Everton striker.

These stats are based on the latest findings from Opta, who record an array of facts and statistics based on Premier League football.

The likes of Aston Villa’s Gabriel Agbonlahor and Newcastle’s Michael Owen do not appear in the top ten list, with the standings calculated by recording a player’s top speed when chasing the ball and also their pace when in control of the ball.

AJ has been clocked racing to the ball at 20.6mph, increasing to 20.7mph when in control of the ball.

Johnson is ahead of England colleagues Ashley Young, Aaron Lennon, Jermaine Defoe, Shaun Wright-Phillips and Joe Cole in the list."


I think he's struggling for confidence at the mo for sure, but he'll be back imo.

come on Mikeo, you must have watched AJ how many times? do you honestly believe that he's that quick? no way is he second fastest player in the premiership - Kolo Toure is quicker, Yobo is quicker, Vaughan may be quicker, Torres, Ronaldo, Drogba, Anelka, Lennon, Ferdinand, Obaefmi Martins, Gerrard, Wright-Phillips would destroy AJ over 20 yards? I've seen AJ play plenty and he isn't anything like second quickest in the premier league no matter what opta say, you can only judge that when players are in a straight race for the ball. If there's anyone on this board who genuinely believes that AJ is even our quickest player I'd be surprised, he's certainly not second quickest in the league. How they can even come up with AJ as second is beyond me, he's hardly ever even in control of the ball when he's running with it.

How long have we been saying he's struggling for confidence? 12 months... sounds like Beattie to me. I think he just isn't very good, he scores about 30-40% of very good chances he gets, Yakubu scores about 80-90% and contributes a lot more in link up play and creativity. If he doesn't buck up his ideas and start scoring before the end of the season then I think we have to look at selling him. No one would be happier than me if AJ scored 10 goals in his next 10 games and fired us to 4th and UEFA cup glory, I just honestly don't see it happening.

Edited by carlmc25, 15 Feb 2008 - 00:56.

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#22 Calico

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 01:37

Opta don't "come up" with stats, they take them from what actually happens in games. And no, it doesn't matter if you think otherwise.

Stop getting on his back when it's clear we need our midfield improved before we start relying on inconsistent, injury-prone kids.
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#23 CraccerC

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 09:55

wanker
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#24 carlmc25

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 11:13

Opta don't "come up" with stats, they take them from what actually happens in games. And no, it doesn't matter if you think otherwise.

Stop getting on his back when it's clear we need our midfield improved before we start relying on inconsistent, injury-prone kids.

not to point out the obvious but don't alarm bells start ringing about these particular stats when they have AJ running faster WITH the ball than without - that would be impossible. Are you telling me if 100m sprinters had to kick a football they'd break the world record? it's a joke, probably based over average speeds of chasing and AJ does a lot of pointless chasing. No way is he quicker than Agbonlahor, Lennon, SWP, Utaka, Anelka, Walcott. Everyone on here knows it. I don't get on his back for the fun of it, I get on his back because he isn't good enough.
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#25 MikeO

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 11:27

Devil's advocate here, just reporting what the stats said....not really commenting on the veracity of it.

Agree that on the face of it the "faster with the ball than without" sounds ludicrous....the only explanation I'd have thought possible would be that he's faster chasing the ball (makes sense...a greyhound runs faster chasing the hare than when not) than when running into space.
That doesn't fit with having the "ball under control" though obviously.

Shouldn't have said "the facts say different," just "Opta says different."
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#26 CraccerC

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 11:31

it isn't without the ball, it's to the ball, and thus, and players have to adjust nearing the ball to take it in their stride and take control.
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#27 Blue4Ever

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 11:36

Vaughans quicker than A.J imo, did anyone see that moment against reading when a think one of there players done a poor passback and Vaughan nearlly got to it before the keeper when vaughan started on the half way line, the speed out of him without the ball is breathtaking, he will be our number 9 in a few years. :rolleyes:
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#28 MikeO

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 11:37

#8 - Shaun Wright-Phillips (without ball) 18.9 mph (with ball) 21.2 mph.

Go figure :huh: .
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#29 carlmc25

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 11:43

it isn't without the ball, it's to the ball, and thus, and players have to adjust nearing the ball to take it in their stride and take control.

why don't you just put it on the line Craccer rather than hiding behind obviously flawed facts - do you actually think AJ is the second fastest player in the Premiership (or even in the top 10?) and do you think he has been anything other than a major disappointment over the last 12 months, with a grand total of 6 goals in 27 matches this season (7 as sub) and including 2 penalty misses? I'll definitely leave it there for me as I'll probably just get in another argument! I just want what is best for Everton and imo, AJ hasn't delivered and needs to go before he turns into another Beattie that we have to flog cut price. That's it.
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#30 Blue 250

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 11:49

#8 - Shaun Wright-Phillips (without ball) 18.9 mph (with ball) 21.2 mph.

Go figure :huh: .


Simple!......next time we play Chelsea DON'T let Wright-Phillips get the ball!

If interested I did a few calculatios of my own a couple of seasons back........using James Beattie as the subject, and came up with these interesting speeds!!


Beattie...(without ball) 17.2 mph....(with ball) 19.8 mph (from showers to canteen) 24.1 mph!

Seriously, Beattie did his best......I don't care how fast AJ is, figures like these mean little to me!
With better service there wouldn't be the need to be an top sprinter!
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#31 jacko1990

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 11:50

Vaughan is Quicker than AJ,

Opta Stats have got it the Wrong way round, your Faster without the ball!!

if someone bid 8 million for AJ i would sell him.

Lennon and ronaldo to battle it out for Fastest player in Prem.
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#32 CraccerC

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 11:51

put it on the line, because calculated statistics aren't as reliable as what you 'think'....give it a rest would you. you're starting to psis me off with your bashing, if we sold every player who got into a bit of a slump then we'd have noone left.

i say it once again, and maybe you'll fucking understand.... you can't score if you get the service.
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#33 jacko1990

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 11:59

put it on the line, because calculated statistics aren't as reliable as what you 'think'....give it a rest would you. you're starting to psis me off with your bashing, if we sold every player who got into a bit of a slump then we'd have noone left.

i say it once again, and maybe you'll fucking understand.... you can't score if you get the service.



i think theirs a Typo their.

If that was directed at me about Selling AJ, Ive wanted to get rid of him for ages now, he only has his workrate going for him, Hes not a good finisher, cant take players on and no height to win headers. and when you said If we sold every player we would have no one left, erm ofcourse we would buy some one else.
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#34 Romey 1878

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 15:31

Carl you're constantly coming out with statistics and evidence to back up what you're saying and you ask other people to do the same, but when what they find constradicts what you think you dismiss it :huh:

Im not saying the stats are right and Im not saying they're wrong either before you start.
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#35 carlmc25

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 18:55

Carl you're constantly coming out with statistics and evidence to back up what you're saying and you ask other people to do the same, but when what they find constradicts what you think you dismiss it :huh:

Im not saying the stats are right and Im not saying they're wrong either before you start.

I understand all that and I do welcome evidence and stats but these stats are so obviously flawed there's no point even using them. When stats say SWP is 3mph faster running with a ball than without then they are worthless and cannot be trusted. What is indisputable is that AJ has scored 18 goals in 62 matches for Everton, and only 12 in his last 55 (1 every 4.5 games), that's poor in anyone's books, apart from maybe Dirk Kuyt.
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#36 Louis

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 19:17

2007/08 Season Totals 6 in 20... over 1 goal every 4 games..
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#37 Bill

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 19:24

2007/08 Season Totals 6 in 20... over 1 goal every 4 games..


1 goal every 3.2 games actually, but i'm staying out of it cos i just dont think he's the player we bought. :)
Unfortunately he has'nt been in the side when we play football through the midfield, Yakubu has had the benefit of that.
AJ plays when we are short in midfield and we resort to hoofing it, so i agree to a certain extent that we are not creating any chances for him, 80% of his game is spent chasing aimless balls out to the corner flags.
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#38 Calico

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 19:36

Carl you're constantly coming out with statistics and evidence to back up what you're saying and you ask other people to do the same, but when what they find constradicts what you think you dismiss it :huh:

Im not saying the stats are right and Im not saying they're wrong either before you start.



I understand all that and I do welcome evidence and stats but these stats are so obviously flawed there's no point even using them. When stats say SWP is 3mph faster running with a ball than without then they are worthless and cannot be trusted. What is indisputable is that AJ has scored 18 goals in 62 matches for Everton, and only 12 in his last 55 (1 every 4.5 games), that's poor in anyone's books, apart from maybe Dirk Kuyt.


Really not doing yourself any favours by repeating the small-minded attitude there.

You just seem to be against AJ irrespective of what he can contribute to us whilst Moyes improves other areas of the team where we really need it.
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#39 carlmc25

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 20:21

that is my point, we DO need to strengthen other areas - midfield - and up front we have an embarrassment of riches. AJ hasn't delivered, there may be mitigating circumstances but in reality, so far, he's been disappointing and is now definitely second choice behind Yak. Bearing in mind that Moyes has obviously been holding back the very promising Vaughan to try and ensure he doesn't keep getting injured, you have to realise that Vaughan is not going to be happy sitting on the bench for long and his time must surely be coming, which will most likely push AJ back into 3rd choice striker. I think we'd already struggle to get our money back on Aj, his goal record for us is poor, he is now well out of the England fold, is not first choice for us and he isn't a spring chicken, his game is based on pace and the older he gets the slower he gets. I think his value at the moment is the highest it's ever going to be, which is why I say 'cash in' now, put the money towards a better and hopefully cheaper replacement and put the extra money towards the midfield.

Anyway, DEFINITELY 100% my last post in this thread now, I need to start being less argumentative!

Edited by carlmc25, 15 Feb 2008 - 20:41.

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#40 Ian

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Posted 15 Feb 2008 - 23:51

I think he's struggling for confidence at the mo for sure, but he'll be back imo.


Nail on the head Mike.

Hes had a few chances but hes definatly a player struggling for confidence. Last season when he was on a high he was scoring good goals, and very important ones and that. I cant see how people think he is not fast, even with his low confidence he can still cause problems with his pace.

Sadly one of the things that goes against Johnson is his undeserved reputation. Offside decisions and stone wall penalties not being awarded to a player who is down on his luck has not helped AJ one bit.

He hasnt been at his best for the last few weeks but its obvious that hes at a low at the minute. Fair play to the lad, hes kept going and puts a shift in everyweek. Im sure he will soon get a few goals and get back to his best.

Lets get behind the lads eh, we're not Liverpool fans :)
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