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451 Vs 442 And Cahill


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#1 Memmaclub

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Posted 19 Sep 2008 - 15:05

I would love us to be able to play 442 but I feel we play better (with the players we have) in a 451 and in addition to that Cahill when fit is one of our best and most consistent performers and I think we need to play a game that plays to his strengths hence the 451. In a 442 (which we reverted to last night) cahill threatis nullified because he cannot get forward. I also think that we don't have enough quality in attack to justify picking two stikers every week.

Why doesn't moyes just play cahill as a second stiker full time
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#2 sheedys2fingers

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Posted 19 Sep 2008 - 16:30

Why doesn't moyes just play cahill as a second stiker full time



I think it suits Cahill to come from deep and unmarked to get his goals. Just couldn't see him suiting his game if he was a marked sriker. Could see him getting frustrated being marked and knowing Tim, end up with a few red cards
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#3 carlmc25

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Posted 19 Sep 2008 - 17:10

451 451 451 451 451, as soon as everyone is fit and Pienaar is back I'd be majorly surprised if we didn't revert to the 451 that works so well. We could be absolutely awesome in a 451 this season and Moyes knows it.
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#4 sheedys2fingers

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Posted 19 Sep 2008 - 18:46

I think I must be the only one here that isn't a big Pienaar fan. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a good player but not a great one and Everton FC imo should only have great players or potentially great players i.e. Kids
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#5 Jimmy the blue

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Posted 19 Sep 2008 - 18:58

The way our defence is playing we may end up with a 5 4 1
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#6 BedfordBlue

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Posted 19 Sep 2008 - 19:15

451 451 451 451 451, as soon as everyone is fit and Pienaar is back I'd be majorly surprised if we didn't revert to the 451 that works so well. We could be absolutely awesome in a 451 this season and Moyes knows it.



I agree mate he's a decent player but when everyone is available he wouldn't be in my starting 11. Osman is a better player I would play him on the right with Arteta on the left and Castillo and Fallinia in the middle and Cahill behind the Yak
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#7 StevO

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Posted 19 Sep 2008 - 19:22

I think I must be the only one here that isn't a big Pienaar fan. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a good player but not a great one and Everton FC imo should only have great players or potentially great players i.e. Kids


hes one of our best players, and last season he was by far the best of our creative players, he is easily more useful than osman, and performed better than arteta last season. he will play when he's fit, im sure of that.

on topic though, 451 for me. cahill is a bigger threat than any of our other strikers, the yak aside.
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#8 sheedys2fingers

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Posted 19 Sep 2008 - 22:43

hes one of our best players, and last season he was by far the best of our creative players, he is easily more useful than osman, and performed better than arteta last season. he will play when he's fit, im sure of that.

on topic though, 451 for me. cahill is a bigger threat than any of our other strikers, the yak aside.



Disagree with you mate about Pienaar. I always look at our players and think which ones would get in one of the so called big 4 sides and no offence but I can't see Pienaar getting in any of them. There are players such as Cahill, Arteta, Jags, Yobo, Lescott (the one from last season) and perhaps the Yak who could break into the 'top 4' side albeit first team or fringe players but couldn't see Pienaar getting in them even though he was linked to Arsenal. Don't get me wrong the lad can play some good creative stuff but you need to do it in most games to be good enough to play for us. Agree he's better than Osman though, a lad who plays with his heart on his sleeve but doesn't have the quality of some of his comrads
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#9 Ant#1

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Posted 20 Sep 2008 - 08:02

we should jus play a 4-3-1-2 problem solved

----Yobo-----Jags-----Lescott-----Baines

---------------Castillo------------------

Arteta--------------------------Peanuts

---------------Cahill--------------------

--------Yak-------------Saha-----------
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#10 sheedys2fingers

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Posted 20 Sep 2008 - 09:14

Looks a good formation and one were we'll concede a few goals but we'll score a few too, more hopefully
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#11 Blue 250

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Posted 20 Sep 2008 - 11:15

.......................................Howard.

........Neville........................................................Lescott/Baines.

........................Yobo.........................Jags(capt).

.......................................Castillo.


.....Arteta...........Cahill.....................Fallini...........Pienaar.


.........................................Yakubu.

Arteta and Pienaar can change about a bit!

Problem at the moment is Castillo and Fallini are both new and playing in really important positions.
Cahill missed numerous games and is still probably a few games short of the cahill that teams fear.
Arteta played the last half of last season with a problem and Pienaar isn't fit at the moment!!

There you have it the entire midfield is a bit like a jigsaw.....just trying to fall into the right place and get back up to speed.

Osman can fit in across the middle, Victor is finding new depths, Rodwell is going to push for games, Vaughan is still on his way back.......Hell! even VDM turned up for training this week!
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#12 StevO

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Posted 20 Sep 2008 - 12:14

Disagree with you mate about Pienaar. I always look at our players and think which ones would get in one of the so called big 4 sides and no offence but I can't see Pienaar getting in any of them. There are players such as Cahill, Arteta, Jags, Yobo, Lescott (the one from last season) and perhaps the Yak who could break into the 'top 4' side albeit first team or fringe players but couldn't see Pienaar getting in them even though he was linked to Arsenal. Don't get me wrong the lad can play some good creative stuff but you need to do it in most games to be good enough to play for us. Agree he's better than Osman though, a lad who plays with his heart on his sleeve but doesn't have the quality of some of his comrads


need to do it in most games to be good enough to play for us. then how did arteta get in the side last season? he didnt do if for about 7 months.

the form arteta has showed for the last 12 months he wouldnt get into any of the top fours starting 11. cahill is good but not as good as anyone in uniteds midfield, chelseas midfield, liverpools midfield, might get lucky at arsenal to get in. jags yobo and lescott would not get above carvalho terry rio vidic toure gallas, maybe one of them could get into liverpools back line (but they have a solid defence and i cant really see it) i dont think for one second pienaar could get in any of them teams. for some reason everyone is up artetas arse, hes been average so far this season, and lasty season he was very poor. the year before he was great and ill give him credit when he is. but from our side last year, its pienaar who was our outstanding creative player. yak could push his way into one or two of the top four, but the rest of our squad (a lot of very very good players) are not up to top four standard.
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#13 carlmc25

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Posted 20 Sep 2008 - 15:40

need to do it in most games to be good enough to play for us. then how did arteta get in the side last season? he didnt do if for about 7 months.

the form arteta has showed for the last 12 months he wouldnt get into any of the top fours starting 11. cahill is good but not as good as anyone in uniteds midfield, chelseas midfield, liverpools midfield, might get lucky at arsenal to get in. jags yobo and lescott would not get above carvalho terry rio vidic toure gallas, maybe one of them could get into liverpools back line (but they have a solid defence and i cant really see it) i dont think for one second pienaar could get in any of them teams. for some reason everyone is up artetas arse, hes been average so far this season, and lasty season he was very poor. the year before he was great and ill give him credit when he is. but from our side last year, its pienaar who was our outstanding creative player. yak could push his way into one or two of the top four, but the rest of our squad (a lot of very very good players) are not up to top four standard.

How exactly has he been average this season, he's probably about 1 or 2 in the opta stats and has scored one and set up about 70% of our goals, playing in an absolutely abysmal midfield (until the last couple of matches). Not only that but he's had a big hand in goals (such as the Yak's goal on Thursday) which haven't been credited to him as an assist, he's there to provide goals and score a few, he's provided about 5 already this season in 5 games, what more do you want, miracles? Everyone is up Pienaar's arse, not Arteta's - true Arteta had a bad season last year (but he was supposedly carrying a nasty injury for a long time) but everyone sets such high standards for him as soon as he isn't playing like a world beater everyone is on his back, yet when Pienaar plays absolutely no better than Arteta (after the African Nations his impact was almost non-existent) everyone still singles him out as if he's been brilliant, I believe it's called new signing syndrome (the same way Castillo managed to get more motm nominations than Arteta the other night even though he did very little except score a wonder goal).

Arteta would get in Liverpool's team on the wing easily and possibly some of the others, Cahill would also get into virtually any team in a 451, in a 442 probably not. That being said, I do rate Pienaar, he's a very good player and I'd have him on the wing ahead of Osman any day, but Osman is very good in CM in a 451. For me, it's either Castillo or Fellaini who will miss out when we play 451, my money is on Castillo.
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#14 StevO

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Posted 20 Sep 2008 - 16:03

i'll happily give arteta the freekick he scored against blackburn was well executed, he hit a good one against stoke for anichebes goal, he hit a good corner for cahills goal against stoke too. but i dont see anywhere near as much in his play as he gave us two seasons ago, i have only seen maybe 5 well hit set pieces out of all of the set pieces he has taken so far this season. if you dont agree, fine.

i think its unfair to say castillo did very little the other night. did you not see he was always there to recieve the ball, he kept everything simple and tidy in the middle, which we havent had much of this season. the lad did a good job protecting the defence. to say he did little is a bit unfair on him i think. what exactly did our love boy arteta do on thursday? countless poor set pieces, he had one touch in the set up of yaks goal, as did a few other of our players in there.
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#15 carlmc25

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Posted 20 Sep 2008 - 16:19

i'll happily give arteta the freekick he scored against blackburn was well executed, he hit a good one against stoke for anichebes goal, he hit a good corner for cahills goal against stoke too. but i dont see anywhere near as much in his play as he gave us two seasons ago, i have only seen maybe 5 well hit set pieces out of all of the set pieces he has taken so far this season. if you dont agree, fine.

i think its unfair to say castillo did very little the other night. did you not see he was always there to recieve the ball, he kept everything simple and tidy in the middle, which we havent had much of this season. the lad did a good job protecting the defence. to say he did little is a bit unfair on him i think. what exactly did our love boy arteta do on thursday? countless poor set pieces, he had one touch in the set up of yaks goal, as did a few other of our players in there.

It wasn't one touch to set up Yak's goal, he played a brilliant 20 yard ball into Osman on the edge of the box and then Osman did brilliantly to touch it on. I don't base his performances solely on his set-pieces, which I think have been generally good until the other night. He put a goal on a plate for Cahill at the back post after some brilliant play, skinning the full back, and Cahill headed it over the bar, it's not Arteta's fault Cahill missed. I think Castillo did have a decentish game the other night, all I'm saying is Arteta ran the midfield whilst Castillo was doing a fairly decent but unspectacular job, but still Castillo gave the ball away in some horrendous positions and he wasn't exactly putting tackles in left, right and centre, more just sitting there and settling in to the team. Arteta also works very hard for the team, until the last 15 mins the other night when he was visibly knackered, he was harrying the opposition every chance he got. He also set up Osman's goal against West Brom and had a big hand in the goal from open play against Stoke as well, plus I'm pretty sure he set up Yak's against Blackburn. All I'm saying is, he's been playing in a midfield full of donkeys like Jags and Rodwell, who could hardly pass the ball to him, it's not Arteta's job to be the midfield enforcer and to win the ball, but if you get the ball to him (something we've hardly been able to do until the other night) then he will do something with it, more so than anyone else in our team.

He may not quite have hit the heights this season that we know he can, but no one can complain when he's worked very hard for the team and set up about 5/6 goals in 5 games and scored one - that's his job and I very much doubt Pienaar could do much more. That's all I'm saying.

On a side note, we played some of our best football in decades last season when Pienaar, Osman and Arteta were in the team - and bearing in mind Arteta was off the boil then, it could be exciting times when Pienaar is back this time. I still think if we stay relatively injury free that we could challenge the top 4 again.

Edited by carlmc25, 20 Sep 2008 - 16:23.

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#16 Guest_blueboy122_*

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Posted 20 Sep 2008 - 16:33

Is anybody else in agreement with me that maybe we should play arteta in the centre of midfeild in a 4-5-1 formation. i just feel he is wasted out on the wing when he is such a quality player. i think his little balls through to the yak will have a massive affect on yaks goal tally. would he not thrive off balls like gerrard does week in week out to torres?
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#17 carlmc25

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Posted 20 Sep 2008 - 17:05

Is anybody else in agreement with me that maybe we should play arteta in the centre of midfeild in a 4-5-1 formation. i just feel he is wasted out on the wing when he is such a quality player. i think his little balls through to the yak will have a massive affect on yaks goal tally. would he not thrive off balls like gerrard does week in week out to torres?

I think Arteta could be brilliant in CM in a 451, but apart from Pienaar i don't think we have anyone else who can play on the wing effectively, I don't think we'll see Arteta anywhere other than the wing in the near future.
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#18 Romey 1878

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Posted 20 Sep 2008 - 17:40

Arteta is too weak for a central role IMO. No doubt about him being good enough creatively to play there but I reckon we'd get punished down the middle with him playing there.
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#19 sheedys2fingers

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Posted 20 Sep 2008 - 22:44

Agree that Arteta would serve a better purpose down the flanks than through the middle. One of his strong points is enticing the full back to challenge him and 9/10 wins a free kick, as well as great crossing (crap on Thursday), couldn't see him being as effective through the middle but give him over pienaar anyday even just for the fact he don't have pigtails :lol:
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#20 carlmc25

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Posted 20 Sep 2008 - 23:15

Arteta is too weak for a central role IMO. No doubt about him being good enough creatively to play there but I reckon we'd get punished down the middle with him playing there.

I don't see why he would be too weak in a 5 man midfield, he's a lot stronger than Osman and he did an excellent job in the midfield last season. It doesn't really matter anyway, he'll be on the wing for the forseeable future.

Sheedy - his crossing wasn't rubbish on Thursday, only his set-pieces, Cahill missed a sitter off one of his crosses and Vaughan headed another just wide.
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#21 StevO

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Posted 21 Sep 2008 - 02:58

id love to see him in midfield, as his short range passing is generally perfect but long range/crossing leaves a little to be desired. i think moyes will generally play fallaini and castillo with three in from of them from cahill arteta pienaar and osman, with yak infront of them. but when saha is fit who knows
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#22 sheedys2fingers

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Posted 21 Sep 2008 - 08:27

Sorry, meant his set pieces were crap for a lad of his quality. I think every corner didn't clear the first defender. Just not the usually high standard we expect from him
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#23 Jimmy the blue

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Posted 21 Sep 2008 - 08:28

Sorry, meant his set pieces were crap for a lad of his quality. I think every corner didn't clear the first defender. Just not the usually high standard we expect from him


Spot on, he wastes so many dead balls its not true. As he takes everyone its a matter of averages that he must get some right say one in five
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#24 carlmc25

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Posted 21 Sep 2008 - 10:34

id love to see him in midfield, as his short range passing is generally perfect but long range/crossing leaves a little to be desired. i think moyes will generally play fallaini and castillo with three in from of them from cahill arteta pienaar and osman, with yak infront of them. but when saha is fit who knows

I think Arteta is such a good player he could play anywhere in our midfield, he used to play DM for PSG from memory and I think if asked to do it for us he could. Personally I think Arteta and Cahill are the only definite midfield starters, Moyes will never drop either of them in a 451, I think either Osman and Pienaar are fighting for the other wing slot or Fellaini and Castillo are fighting for the DM position. As Castillo is only on loan then I expect him to be on the bench for quite a few games, unless he really does start playing so well Moyes can't leave him out. I think Osman has the biggest task on his hands, he either needs to oust Pienaar on one wing (unlikely) or he needs to oust Castillo/Fellaini in CM - more likely.
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#25 StevO

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Posted 21 Sep 2008 - 11:47

i think he may be tempted to play two DMs. a lot of teams in the euros were playing with a sort of 4231 formation, i think it could be worth a try.
---------catillo-----felaini---------
arteta----cahill----pienaar/osman
---------------yak------------------

but at least we have some competition in there now, which god knows we've needed
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#26 Blue4Ever

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Posted 21 Sep 2008 - 20:40

451 451 451 451 451, as soon as everyone is fit and Pienaar is back I'd be majorly surprised if we didn't revert to the 451 that works so well. We could be absolutely awesome in a 451 this season and Moyes knows it.

id much rather play saha and yakubu who will be alot more effective than cahill behind the striker
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#27 EFC-Paul

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Posted 21 Sep 2008 - 21:38

If our Defence pulled it together i think we would have a very balanced team

--------------------Howard--------------------
Neville------Yobo-----------Jags------Baines
------------------------------------------------
--------------Fallaini/Castillo-----------------
------------------------------------------------
Arteta--------------------------------Pienaar
-------------------Cahill----------------------
------------------------------------------------
----------Saha--------------------------------
--------------------------Yakubu-------------
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#28 Memmaclub

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Posted 22 Sep 2008 - 20:27

I like this team and I don't see fellani as a box to box midfielder. From what I can see he looks more a def mid although moyes said that was castillo
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