eddie blue Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 This "masterplan" as worshiper put it is exactly what im looking to see.... Any idiot can pull up huge land spaces on google maps and plonk Goodison park on it..... Isnt that exactly what Wyness did. ?? I agree with that, but several things have come to light since the early days which the club cannot dispute. Didnt this start off as a Deal of the Century, a stadium that was only going to cost 20 million with a gift of 50 million from Tesco, who have since said that the 50 million was to buy the land for the tesco store, but you can have some of it to build your stadium on if you help us get permission to build our store, it seems to me that tesco were only looking after their own interests and using EFC solely for that purpose, and being in the mess we are in, they jumped in with Both feet. Now theres talk of it costing 78 million, so again you should ask yourself 78 MILLION for a football stadium, i dont think so, more like £278 million for a half decent stadium so we would have obviously had to mortgage ourselves up to the neck to borrow that, as if we are'nt deep enough in debt already. "We can all discuss the financials of this move untill the cows come home but to be honest none of us has a clue". If your financial knowledge is not good enough to see that a stadium increase of only 10.000 people cant bring in the extra 10 million pounds that EFC claimed it would , then i suggest you keep a close eye on your bank balance mate, cos some people could be milking you dry and you wouldnt have a clue. The problem i find with it all is were are these extra 10,000 fans coming from?we are down on last seasons attendances, but even last season when we were playing well,we were not selling out every game i just dont think anyone has answered this question properly, i also have an open mind on the issue of moving to a new ground.there was an article in the papers over the weekend which stated that Man U had not sold out of all there corporate seating for over 2 years which we need to bear in mind .there is no guarantee of selling all these expensive seats,you need really good marketing which im not convinced we have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DangerMouse Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Please prove to me that 10k extra matchgoes carnt bring in 10mil on my workings 10000 x £30 22 games maybe / season thats = 6.6mil leaving 200k / game shortfall on 10mil each person spending £20 while at the game not thats quick and 20 quid spend per peron at the game is excesive........ but there is noooo way the match tickets would be £30 at a new ground..... just £5 on that makes a total matchday ticket revenue around £7.7 anyone can add up and take away... the thing here is marketing.....Marketing specialists would give you a fairly good spend / head average.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie blue Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Please prove to me that 10k extra matchgoes carnt bring in 10mil on my workings 10000 x £30 22 games maybe / season thats = 6.6mil leaving 200k / game shortfall on 10mil each person spending £20 while at the game not thats quick and 20 quid spend per peron at the game is excesive........ but there is noooo way the match tickets would be £30 at a new ground..... just £5 on that makes a total matchday ticket revenue around £7.7 anyone can add up and take away... the thing here is marketing.....Marketing specialists would give you a fairly good spend / head average.... My main point is do we all think we could get 10,000 more supporters every week,if so were are they coming from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 DM ...Please go back and look at my earlier post, if you think we are going to fill the ground every week your dafter than i first thought, we will be lucky to boost the present Average of 36.000 to scrape over maybe 40.000 average, and only if we are performing on the pitch week after week, i was being very generouis when i said we might get the average up to 43.000. You can paint it up anyway you like with Hotdogs and cups of Oxo, maybe a pint here and there, but there is no way you are going to make it up to anywhere near 10 million. Also bare in mind that probably a third of the ground is made up by juveniles and over 60 concessions who can get a ticket for £20 or less, so the £30 pound average price was also generous. I'll point you back to your original statement ....... "We can all discuss the financials of this move untill the cows come home but to be honest none of us has a clue"...... In your case i have to agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everton_Worshiper Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 there has to be so many police per fan, so if the capacity can reach 50k there has to be police for 50k, we currently pay for policing upto 40k. there has to be so many stewards per fan also, and they dont work for free. hes not getting at the point that the debt wont increase at GP, the point is the revenue will on increase enough. we still wont compete with spurs and their little 36/37k seater stadium, due to us not having enough corp boxes. have you actually read his posts or have you just gone "oh look someone picking on kirkby again, must defend regardless" lol I love the way mods edit their posts but don't leave the watermark to say they have. If you took the time to read posts you will see I am not for or against Kirkby, I just do not bow down to the KEIOC statements and comments that come out. Most of them try to turn the slightest thing into a big negative spin but when it is balanced against a neutrals perspective (and the bigger picture) it is not such a big thing. I lost respect for what KEIOC were trying to do a long time ago - not that I can imagine they care less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Jim - I don't know why you are assuming that I've even taken season tickets into account for my figures. Robert Elstone said that Goodison brings in £800k per matchday in matchday revenue. He also said that the club can expect Kirkby to bring in £10million more than Goodison. More staff will be needed on a match day including police, stewards, caterers, bus drivers and petrol costs so SteveO does have a point. That's before you realise that the club will be taking up to £78million (at this time, final fee expected to be higher) worth of debt on for the stadium and the outgoing payments will be increased. I'll see if I can get the spreadsheet up to share with everyone. Louis mate I haven't assumed anything about season tickets apart from the fact that with new owners and some big signings the blue touch paper will be relit and we will gain overnight supporters in the same way Citeh have. Steves point is all that valid mate because Goodison needs heavy stewarding due to its design (my daughter used to be a marshall at the games and was told this when training). The new stadium should be a much better design, no matter where it is . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Dont want to piss on anybodys chips but city are still not doing any good in the crowd department, they had the same average as us last season (fairly good season and Just scraped into Euro position) and this season after all the Hype of the takeover and Robinho plus europe an all, they're still not doing too clever. City of Manchester Stadium Capacity ....................................48000 Average attendance (2008/2009) 37.364 Even with a 50.000 capacity stadium we wouldnt get much more than the Hardcore base we have now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy the blue Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Dont want to piss on anybodys chips but city are still not doing any good in the crowd department, they had the same average as us last season (fairly good season and Just scraped into Euro position) and this season after all the Hype of the takeover and Robinho plus europe an all, they're still not doing too clever. City of Manchester Stadium Capacity ....................................48000 Average attendance (2008/2009) 37.364 Even with a 50.000 capacity stadium we wouldnt get much more than the Hardcore base we have now. What was there average last term Bill, if more I'll choke the cheeseman at Ormskirk market What increase has there been since the arab take over? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Dont know Jimmy cant find it anywhere, just been on the Blue moon forum and asked, they think i'm a Red manc and they told me to fook off. :D I'll go back on later and see if anybody's answered properly. From what they tell me it was 46.000 Under KK, 42.00 Last season and since the takeover they have only played 3 league games at home.... Liverpool 47.400 .... Chelsea the same 47.400 ........ and pompey 41. 010. and a few euro and league cup games ""Lowest Attendance 18,214, Highest Attendance 47,331, Average Attendance 38,468 Based on all matches played this season."" Edit ...... here you go... http://www.bluemoon-mcfc.co.uk/forum/viewt...f=1&t=89693 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted October 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 We seem to have had wires crossed somewhere along the line.. so to surmise is this what has happened? In summary, I said Kirkby is expected to take in less matchday revenue in 2010 than Anfield did in 2006/2007 - I said this limits Everton's future growth (mainly because we will have took on a lot of debt to pay for the stadium, I don't see why extra hospitality boxes can't be in place straight away - as far as I know the stadium expansions only include the 10,000 seats for a 60,000 stadium). I then suggested that a groundshare makes financial sense from my point of view because Everton will never be able to compete with rivals financially whilst confined at Kirkby and will be at best 8th in the matchday revenue table. I acknowledged that Kirkby could see a 59% increase in matchday revenue and that is a good thing but I don't feel it is enough to bridge the gap to the top four in financial terms. Everton Worshipper said he agreed with me that the lack of corporate hospitality is a concern for the long-term. SteveO said that there will be an increase in outgoings on matchday due to an expected increase in attendance and that this would eat into the revenue - we all agree on this. Jim commented that more stewards are needed at Goodison Park than would be needed elsewhere at a modern stadium with a similar capacity. Licker has looked to see the average attendance of CoMs last season and it was around 42,000. In it's first season the attendance level was 46,834. He wanted to establish what a likely predicted attendance would be at Kirkby for Everton. I'd like to add that the repayments for the new stadium would also eat into the matchday stadium however I feel that a smaller amount of money could be borrowed to take capacity to 50,000 at Goodison Park in the short-term which would allow us a steady income to rebuild Goodison slowly but surely. Long-term it would cost more to redevelop Goodison than Kirkby - I won't dispute that but by making smaller baby steps (transitional approach) we can take less risk with the finances and we can ease cash flow and rebuild a stadium that was once considered the best in the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everton_Worshiper Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Louis, good summary Your last paragraph would be the perfect scenario but I feel it won't happen. I will raise my cup of tea to it happening but sadly I fear it won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 lol I love the way mods edit their posts but don't leave the watermark to say they have. If you took the time to read posts you will see I am not for or against Kirkby, I just do not bow down to the KEIOC statements and comments that come out. Most of them try to turn the slightest thing into a big negative spin but when it is balanced against a neutrals perspective (and the bigger picture) it is not such a big thing. I lost respect for what KEIOC were trying to do a long time ago - not that I can imagine they care less. didnt edit that post mate, and dont know how to without it saying its been edited. i posted one right after the other, i normally merge when i do that, but i was on my way out so didnt get chance. sorry to disappoint. p.s. what KEIOC statements and comments are you not bowing to? there is none on this thread that ive noticed. its a shame you think keioc try to spin everything negative, but you dont see efc try to spin everything positive either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 Finally got some figures off the City Site.. 03-04 46,834 04-05 45,192 05-06 42,856 06-07 39,997 07-08 42,126 08-09 (so far) 42,871 You can see that it started off very well, 46.800 average from a capacity of 48.000 is an excellent start plus Keegan was the Manager then, but it steadily dropped when the initial excitment of the new ground wore off. Down to 39.000 when Pearce was there, and then picked up when Shinawatra took over and a good season last season making it into euro. This year has seen it go up again obviously with the Arabian oil connection and Robinho and such , tho only 3 league games have been play so far ... Redshite and Chelsea full houses (47,000) and Portsmouth (41.000). no doubt it will rise as the season progresses, the january transfer window should see to that. So as i said earlier higher attendances are based on what happens on the pitch, but it also helps if the ground is easily accessible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thescore Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 reports on the redevolpment of Goodison park http://www.toffeeweb.com/club/Goodison/Red...odison_Park.pdf http://www.knowsley.gov.uk/resources/225054/GoodisonPark.pdf http://www.keioc.net/uploads/files/gfefeasstudy.pdf got a few hours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 (edited) i love the one on toffeeweb, is that skemptons? cant remember i like the gfe one as it shows it all looking pretty slick, but the other one is just purely iconic on the interior to me. like a small san siro Edited October 9, 2008 by StevO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fussybear Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 everton to lodge application for stanley park. source, LCC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 surely you must have more info for this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fussybear Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 LCC member is suggesting that LFC ground wont be happening and 'embryonic talks' have started with Everton Football Club. application and planning to be submitted Jan 09. heard it here first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted October 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 It'll be a joint application if it is for Stanley Park, I can't see EFC being able to afford it when LFC can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everton_Worshiper Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 It'll be a joint application if it is for Stanley Park, I can't see EFC being able to afford it when LFC can't. Agreed - unless we get a buy out then it will be the shared stadium plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DangerMouse Posted October 13, 2008 Report Share Posted October 13, 2008 would actually make a little sense.... on what grounds would they have to reject it.......... Ignoring the fact that we could never ever afford it.... they could never refuse planning permission after granting it for the red shite..... Sadly i dont think it holds up............... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fussybear Posted October 13, 2008 Report Share Posted October 13, 2008 no mention of a ground share from my source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted October 13, 2008 Report Share Posted October 13, 2008 no mention of a ground share from my source. Think your theories may owe more to sauce induced fantasy rather than any reliable inside info . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fussybear Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 im not in the business of being board and making shit up, it will come out in due course: a connected officer of LCC is saying this "liverpool isnt happening..(quote 9 years the application has been in place).. everton are keen and we are exploring..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thescore Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Liverpool City Council have shown Everton that they can still influence Everton's future, regardless if they want to sell out to Knowsley. Everton were attempting to acquire planning permission to build 74 family homes, with the money earned likely to head straight to the Destination Kirkby project. LCC rejected the proposal citing increased traffic to the area as a major problem. The land in question is at the old Bellefield site, now redundant of use after the move to Finch Farm. The land will remain empty until the club can find a new way to use it, and presumably make money off it. Paul Williams, a representative from Everton's property agents Savills, was quoted as saying: ''The site is now redundant since the move to Finch Farm. ''If this application is refused it will remain vacant.' ''Everton have every right to realise the worth of their assets. The club need to realise a return on the site and will appeal any refusal.' LCC were never likely to cooperate and bend the rules for Everton, after all the bad press the club has sent in the councils direction, over the controversial move to Kirkby. The city council objected to the Kirkby project last week, along with all surrounding councils, with the unsurprising exception of Knowsley. The only hope for Evertons future inside the city now lies in the hands of a Government call in, if you are against the move and would like to hope increase pressure on those decision makers, please sign this petition: petition Evertons off the field future is very much up in the air right now, and regardless of which way the decision goes it is important it is wrapped up quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted October 26, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Deloitte - the club's financial advisors have said the stadium is expected to bring in a potential benefit of £6million a year. This is from a letter sent to Knowsley Council from Deloitte: Further to your discussions with Everton FC we have been requested to comment on some of the financial aspects. We have worked with the Club in developing its Business Plan, the related funding strategy and the progress the Club has made in implementing that strategy. We understand that the Club is in advanced discussions with funders which it expects to enable it to raise funding of circa £80 million within the next month or so, which represents the club's contribution to the new stadium being developed by Tesco. From our work with the Club to date on it's Business Plan we understand the annual potential financial benefit to the Club of the new stadium is of the order of £6m. As a result it appears that the commercial rationale for the Club developing the new stadium if it has to raise more than £80million is questionable. The contribution to the stadium project needs to be carefully balanced with the requirement for investment in the Club's playing squad and existing infrastructure. http://www.knowsley.gov.uk/resources/23434...oitteLetter.doc Previously it had been said by club employee's that the stadium would bring in more that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 expect people to make comments along the lines of that piece by Deloitte has been edited by KEIOC to make the club seem stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DangerMouse Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 (edited) Well looking at it in a positive manor we could potentially move to kirkby.. get a brand new shiny ground and within 15-20 years have it all paid for...... seriously though.... would redeveloping Goodison park be any cheaper??? Edited October 27, 2008 by DangerMouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted October 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Goodison Park redevelopment in all likelihood won't be cheaper but it will be more manageable because smaller chunks of money will be needed meaning the lower (more affordable) repayments. The 'Credit Crunch' has affected naming rights, previously Ian Ross had said the club would receive £6m a year, Robert Elstone said it would be around £4.5m a year. I believe that the figures quoted were ambitious because Arsenal earn £3.3million a year and they are in one of the best club stadiums in the country, in the capital city and Champions League regulars. I think that any naming rights deal at this time will be significantly lower and this'll have a knock on effect for how long it takes for the stadium to be paid off in. DM, Please answer this because you are one of the more vocal supporters for the Kirkby stadium on here, are you concerned (even slightly) that the club's financial consultants expect the stadium to intake some 40% less than what we were told by the club, that or they expect the shortfall between estimates to be covered by supplementary sales (food, drink etc.). "...We are confident that we can generate £10m, £11m of incremental revenue from this new stadium." - Robert Elstone "A new stadium gives you new revenue strings. It could be up to £10million a year the revenue at Kirkby." - Keith Wyness Keith Wyness also said that the £10million would be for transfer funds in an interview with bluekipper: Keith Wyness: We calculate we will get an extra ten million revenue from stadium activities, increase in attendances, where we think ticket prices will be, extra corporate facilities, extra sponsorship. We think that figure is pretty conservative. Mickey Blue Eyes: Is that the origins of the ten million quoted in the press as being available for David Moyes to bring in new players? Keith Wyness: Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DangerMouse Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 (edited) To be honest, Kirkby, in my opinion isn't the be all and end all.... I'm one of the fans that think a ground move is required to allow the club as a whole to grow and become more profitable....On a more selfish note.. id just like to see us playing in a top stadium with top facilities..and cold beers Now Kirkby being on the outskirts of Liverpool is pushing it a bit but its not exactly in Manchester is it....Id be happy if we found another location but sadly I just dont see us stumping up 200 - 300 million. Everton just can not afford it.... YET!! So bearing this I'm mind..... If Kirkby is the ONLY alternative allowing us to get a ground for 80 million then so be it... And getting to the point that pisses me right off.... I'm sure you will site various "proposals" and "offers" from LCC, KEIOC and similar stating that its not the ONLY viable option.... well I'm sorry but WHERE is the proof....studies have been carried out maybe but i wouldn't call them comprehensive by any means.... As i like to sat any idiot can find a plot of land on google maps.. As for the financials..... you will tell me that the 80 million stated is a "lie", conservative, misguided call it what you will... even if it doubles.. it will DEFIANTLY be cheaper than building the same stadium on our own or redeveloping Goodison... Income / season is basically a guess.... ffs its "made up" by marketing "experts" . With my background in engineering I could find you two of these numpties that will would give you two stupidly different answer's... I deal with them all the time when were qouting for projects...... The most likely scenario is income / turnover will increase... surely this can only be a good thing? Arguing over the numbers isnt really for you and me.... someone with more knowledge, experience & expertise will have figured all this out long before now... but hey there all liar's arnt they.. Things are allways done for a reason... tell me Louis, what benefit would BK and the like get from building us a ground in the middle of Kirkby that wouldnt also benefit Everton FC..... So what if the share value increases and makes BK a fortune.... Companies riddled with debt making no profit and having poor turnovers dont magically have high share prices.....If the share price goes up its good for Everton... This means were profitable And its not like were building houses here.. a football stadium is worthless for any other purpose than playing football in.... so were not exactly going to be asset stripped are we by a new buyer... No! Most of the stuff you post Louis is factual but sadly I dont care if they lie or not.... Sometimes they have too please fickle moaning supporters.... BK too me is MR EVERTON.... he isnt going to ruin are club just to put a few quid in his already bulging pockets Edited October 27, 2008 by DangerMouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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