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Walton Hall Park - Stadium Site


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#1 New Stadium

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Posted 21 Oct 2009 - 11:25

Walton Hall Park is the ideal site for a stadium.

  • Rapid-transit rail line right into the park (a tunnel from Kirkdale exists into the site), shifting half the capacity in an hour.
  • Major trunk roads
  • Easy access to motorways
  • lots of space
  • Minimum interference to residents
  • Easy to get to fro all fans
  • Easy mainline rail connections
  • Near GP

The map below
  • The red is the proposed recommissioned Outer-Loop line - still with trackbed and bridges intact. This brings on-line: Walton Hall Park, Norris Green, Clubmoor, West Derby, Knotty Ash, Broad Green, Childwall, Gateacre, Woolton & Halewood - eventually. The catchment area of the line is substantial.
  • The red star at the top at the end of the red line is Kirkdale station.
  • The red star at the bottom of the red line is Hunts X station.
  • The red/blue line is the Kirkdale-Rice Lane tunnel.
  • The red/blue star at the top is Walton Hall Park where an Everton FC or a shared stadium could be built with a high throughput station. Trains leave the stadium both ways.
  • The green dotted line is the existing Northern line that creates a full city loop with the Outer-Loop - trains can just go around the loop, as they partially do on the Wirral Line. Or just around the loop on matchdays to shift fans.
  • The pink lines are existing Northern Lines to: Southport, Ormskirk and Kirkby.
  • The light blue line is Edge Hill to the west and where it meets the red line is Broad Green. This could be made into a junction, as was planned to be so in the 1970's. That means the north and southern sections of the Outer-Loop can be two separate loops and will run right into Edge Hill junction and onto Lime St, or into Central if the Wapping tunnel is branched into Central. Or down the Waterloo tunnel and onto the Northern
    Line at Waterloo Dock. All in the future, but would make the loop quickly accessible to the city centre.
  • The light blue star at the bottom is Liverpool South Parkway station with connections to London and Manchester and beyond.
  • The rails already bought for collapsed Merseytram scheme are stored in Hull and can be used for the loop offsetting some costs.

Posted Image

Most of the line is in place...Also a point was that stadia should be NOT granted PP unless rapid-transit rail is incorporated in the design - Merseyrail is superb and can alleviate concerned for locals. It can increase attendances.

The rail setup shifts people fast with connections all over Merseyside.

If a shared stadium is on the agenda, then Walton Hall Park is the ideal choice as the fans can be shifted in and out very fast and en-mass. It is cheap to implement as well. It is cheap to implement as most is actually in place. This gives a big bang-for-buck.

Trams were dropped and were a disaster of a plan. Kirkby to Liverpool was 5 minutes faster than the bus. They cannot shift 30,000 per hour. Merseyside has a rapid-transit rail system with connections to mainlines stations, that can shift people fast and in great volume. The answer is there waiting.

The line, the Outer Loop, is existing, as the bridges and trackbed is still there, even a long tunnel right to WHP. Lords has three tunnels under and the plan is to use one or two of them to shift fans right into the stadium. Good thinking. It can be done at WHP and a Merseyrail line to serve the population as well outside match days. The Outer Loop covers districts MerseyTram was to cover - but does it quickly. The existing disused infrastructure is mothballed. Cost is cheap as most is still intact. MerseyTram lines were bought and stored in Hull, and can be used.


Merseyrail is the largest rapid-transit underground/overground system outside of London. It has 68 stations on fully electric lines. It is easily expandable to cover more of its targeted population that any other metropolitan railway. See: Extending Merseyrail http://www.liverpool...ail"]Merseyrail[/url]

The proposal is a complete rail loop.

The prime point is that the city should not give planning permission to any large venue unless high throughput rapid-transit rail links are a part of the design, able to shift half of the capacity in one hour. Liverpool has a comprehensive rapid-transit rail network, which has increased in size over the past 20 years and it should be used to the full. Not to incorporate this rapid-transit network is totally foolish. Everyone gains, especially the fans and football club.

It should be, if no rapid-transit rail link, no stadium. If it is there they should be forced to use it.

Below: if the disused lines on Merseyside are used this is what you get:
Posted Image

Put a stadium on one of these fast lines and the fans will flock in.

Edited by New Stadium, 21 Oct 2009 - 18:16.

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#2 New Stadium

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Posted 21 Oct 2009 - 11:40

LFC have been granted planning permission for their stadium in Stanley Park. They desperately need a high throughput Merseyrail station. Hence the adjacent, well not that near, Canada Dock Branch Line being considered for Merseyrail. EFC at Kirkby need the Kirkby Merseyrail station, which is not on the doorstep, enlarging to give a high throughput.

There is no joined up thinking. It would be best to have a station under the two stadia to allow fans to access the stands directly. Lords Cricket ground are proposing this. The ground consists of the main cricket ground and right next to it is the Nursery end, which was used for practising. Named so because it was a nursery at one time. Tunnels using the cut and cover method were run under the Nursery end for access to Marylebone station in the 1890s. One tunnel serves Marylebone station while the other two were for storing trains. and are now disused. They propose using the through tunnel as a station for direct access into the stands and the other two for a gym, sports injuries treatment, or whatever.
Times Article

Below the three tunnels under the Nursery end, being built. Lords only own the top 18" of land and can't put large buildings up. Now they can as they have bought two of the tunnels.
Posted Image

Integrated stations is what LFC and EFC should be made to incorporate into their stadia. It all makes so much sense. A high throughput rapid transit rail link must be a precursor for a new stadium. No link. No Stadium. Rapid-transit access s the key.

Taking a Merseyrail train from any part of Merseyside to a stadium and walking directly into the stadium stands from the station in a covered stadium in winter will attract many people to the venues. A sure success. Generates money to buy players to make a top club.

Below: the stand with the media bubble is to be made much larger with its own rapid-transit rail station underneath giving direct access.
Posted Image

Edited by New Stadium, 21 Oct 2009 - 11:50.

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#3 Louis

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Posted 21 Oct 2009 - 12:47

It's not a very good site in my opinion.

It needs to be located where the transport provisions are already in place. The recommissioning of the red line alone would cost more than the stadium.

http://www.openstree...9205322&zoom=15

The main benefit of the Stanley Park stadium being built would be the line being allowed for public use again,Walton and Anfield railway station could be opened as 'Goodison Park'.

I met with Merseyrail last year, they don't see the point in the rail station being opened because train service would only be every 15minutes and would not allow many passengers to use it. Less than 2,000 per hour from what I remember.
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#4 New Stadium

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Posted 21 Oct 2009 - 13:08

Walton Hall Park is the best site for EFC or a shared stadium. There is a disused tunnel from Kirkdale to the Rice Lane flyover. This can be extended under the junction and into the park and a station under the stadium - the tunnel is still running under the flyover junction as the lines were only lifted in 1975. Skirting the park the track beds of the old curves are largely still there. This connects onto the outer loop line trackbed that goes to West Derby/Broad Green/Childwall/Gatacre/Hunts Cross/South Parkway and back to the city centre via Brunswick. Merseyrail can then go back to the centre via Kirkdale and the other way onto South Parkway for the London line and the Manchester line. A station may be built at Rice Lane or anywhere in one of the tunnel cuttings.

Th red is the disused tunnel from Kirkdale station (bottom left) to the Rice Lane Flyover. An Everton stadium can be just over the junction in Walton Hall Park. The white dotted lines are the old trackbeds and the lead off to bottom right is the outer loop line that goes to West Derby and then onto South Parkway. It can form a complete loop via the city centre. The dotted line just north of Goodison Park is the Canada Dock Branch line.
Posted Image
Courtesy of Multimap

The disused tunnel:
http://www.subbrit.o...on_on_the_hill/

Posted Image
The Outer Loop Line's Bridges are still in Place - the line is mothballed

There is no joined up thinking. All is there waiting for someone to think it all together. Merseyside has a high throughput rapid transit rail system,. No stadium should be be given planning permission unless they build it in as a part of the stadium, or just nearby, a Merseyrail metro station. It is madness not too!!!!! All benefit mainly the fans and club(s).

The trams have been scrapped. The Dept of Transport will fund any Merseyrail extensions along with EU and NWDA. The Outer loop forms a complete loop through the city centre - all the districts along its rout will benefit not just a footy ground.

It is easy to see that the Outer Loop is the by far a great enhancement to the city and a footy club:

  • It merges into Merseyrail easily and forms a complete loop through the centre from both ways.
  • On matchdays, trains just need to stay on the loop and run in and out of the stadium station. This make matters very easy for Merseyrail operation in getting the trains in and out of the stadium and shifts people fast.
  • Also two ways into the city centre and Wirral connections
  • Two ways to South Parkway for away fans.
  • Easy change at Sandhills to Southport and Ormskirk
  • Easy changes at Kirkdale for Kirkby (and Skem when that comes on-line)
  • Easy change to the airport when that comes on line
  • It brings onto line many districts that really need a rapid transit rail connection.
  • It eliminates the need for slow lumbering trams.

Remember, the Outer Loop was a part of the original 1970's Merseyrail metro plan, maybe why it is kept intact inc' bridges. Budget cuts stopped the implementation. The curves to Rice Lane were not in this plan, neither was the Kirkdale tunnel. Now it looks like a great enhancement to the city's transport and to a footy club as well.

LFC and EFC could both have a stadium at Walton Hall Park and the station serve both. WHP is not far from both clubs. The park is by far the better solution to Stanley Park which is on the wrong side of Queens Drive. Queens Drive outwards had dual carriageway trunk roads and east access to the East Lancs Rd and Motorways.

Edited by New Stadium, 21 Oct 2009 - 14:57.

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#5 New Stadium

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Posted 21 Oct 2009 - 13:25

The main benefit of the Stanley Park stadium being built would be the line being allowed for public use again,Walton and Anfield railway station could be opened as 'Goodison Park'.


You are getting confused with the Canada Dock Branch Line (sometimes called the Bootle Branch) it takes freight trains to the docks. This is a north end loop running from Edge Hill to Bootle via Kirkdale. It still takes trains. This may be electrified along with the Liverpool-Manchester line. It can them merge with Merseyrail using dual-voltage picks trains (3rd rail and wires). As it stands if opened for LFC it would run from Bootle to mainline Lime St via Edge Hill using diesel trains. A point to point line. The Outer Loop full merges into Merseyrail running both way easily back to the city centre.

Dep of Transport, Council, NWDA, LFC, EFC, etc, may collectively fund the Outer Loop as it will alleviate congestion and pollution in the city centre. The station will attract investment around them as they do in London and other cities. It can kill many birds with one stone.

Below: Canada Dock Branch Line in Blue. Northern Line in black, Kirkdale in the North, Lime Street in the South. A point to point diesel line at the mo', if commissioned. The Kirkdale tunnel can be seen and WHP is at the top where it says Walton.
Posted Image

Merseyrail (run by NedRail/Serco) do not like the idea of running diesel trains as they have to farm it out to Northern Rail, so make less money. They get paid to run Merseyrail as all urban railways run at a loss - they are a social necessity. They like to run electric trains. The City Line is diesel and operated by Northern Rail with Merseyrail colours and tickets. Their view may change when the L'pool-Mcr line is electrified in 4 years - the document heavily implies the Canada Dock Branch line is to electrified for freight trains to access the West Coat Main Line. This means the passenger trains can use as well. BTW, Merseytravel, the local transport executive decides if a line gets recommissioned. They are the authority, Nedrail/Serco just run the network.

Merseyrail need to promote the system like London Underground do. Many People in Merseyside could use the Merseyrail metro but just don't. They just don't think of it.

Edited by New Stadium, 21 Oct 2009 - 14:45.

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#6 Louis

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Posted 21 Oct 2009 - 18:47

I am not confused... you raised the issue of Liverpool's stadium needing a new station on that line and I pointed out a station on Walton Lane could benefit Everton at Goodison or at the very least offer a nod to Goodison should we move on.
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#7 New Stadium

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Posted 21 Oct 2009 - 19:02

I am not confused... you raised the issue of Liverpool's stadium needing a new station on that line and I pointed out a station on Walton Lane could benefit Everton at Goodison or at the very least offer a nod to Goodison should we move on.


Any station on that line will not be at Walton Lane. It will be around Cherry Lane to cope with 75,000 at LFC. The line initially could be diesel running from Bootle to Lime St mainline. IF the electrification is run through to the docks in 4 years it may start out as electrified meshing better with Merseyrail and if the Waterloo and/or Wapping tunnels are recommissioned then direct access to "most" of Merseyside. Why would they put another station at Walton Lane if EFC move on?

Edited by New Stadium, 21 Oct 2009 - 19:03.

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#8 Louis

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Posted 21 Oct 2009 - 19:20

Because surveys have already been carried out and Walton Lane/County Road were identified as possible sites. County Road was seen as more favourable but if EFC stay at Goodison Walton Lane may be opened on the back of LFC plans. :)

Have you calculated a possible throughput for the station at Cherry Lane?

From a transport perspective, somewhere between Moorefields and Sandhills is ideal because of the number of trains going through the area. I'll try and keep that to the other thread though!
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#9 New Stadium

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Posted 21 Oct 2009 - 19:53

Because surveys have already been carried out and Walton Lane/County Road were identified as possible sites. County Road was seen as more favourable but if EFC stay at Goodison Walton Lane may be opened on the back of LFC plans. :)

Have you calculated a possible throughput for the station at Cherry Lane?


If LFC build at SP and EFC stay (highly unlikely), a station will not be at County Road. One was there until 1948, Spellow:
Spellow
It is in a deep cutting with only two shallow platforms. The throughput will be very poor.

LFC were supposed to be contributing towards a new station at Cherry lane with 4 platforms, so it will be as near to them as possible. If electrified a new signalling system could have trains 2 minutes apart. But the Canada Dock Branch Line is poor as it does not mesh into Merseyrail well. The Outer Loop via WHP does.

There is no way a station will be at County Rd to do the two grounds.

From a transport perspective, somewhere between Moorefields and Sandhills is ideal because of the number of trains going through the area. I'll try and keep that to the other thread though!


You mean your fantasy stadium at Clarence Dock destroying the city's heritage? This stadium is in the inside the heads of two nuts who put together the CAD renders and emailed them out to site admin' men. Read what I wrote. No organisation is planning a stadium there. The UN have approved the plans and no stadium is approved!!!!

No one who cares about Liverpool would want to destroy such a site with a concrete lump of a footy stadium. Then they tell me they are proud of their city and coming from Liverpool and wanting to destroy it. How odd.
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#10 jamiemaher85

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Posted 21 Oct 2009 - 20:39

You're a little tetchy about this arn't you ;)
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#11 Bill

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Posted 21 Oct 2009 - 21:21

Who are you ? and tell me exactly what are you on here for. ?? :mellow:

Is he a friend of yours Louis. :P
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#12 Romey 1878

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Posted 22 Oct 2009 - 06:58

Or a friend of Merseyrail ;).
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#13 thescore

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Posted 22 Oct 2009 - 08:57

i think this guy could be off KEIOC.

http://www.keioc.net...alton-hall-park
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#14 Louis

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Posted 22 Oct 2009 - 10:40

I've never met him Bill. I've read his posts on another forum and he's not involved with KEIOC, he's a fan who beleives that Walton Hall Park is a better site for a stadium than most (if not all) alternatives (and it coincides with 'outer loop' railway idea) and doesn't want to see a Everton stadium built near the riverside because he wants it to be maritime themed. It's fair enough but I don't agree with him.

There's a few crossed wires, he seems to think that miles of rail track should be laid between Kirkdale and Hunts Cross instead of 'merely' opening a new station near the old Walton and Anfield station site which is more cost effective.

If he's saying that the track should be laid to make the 'outer loop' which would help people get around the city, then fine, fair enough. If he's saying it should be built to suit a stadium on Walton Hall Park then it's a pipe dream because the cost is prohibitively expensive.

WHP is a decent site but it's not likely, LCC have ruled it out "two wrongs don't make a right".
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#15 New Stadium

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Posted 22 Oct 2009 - 11:54

You're a little tetchy about this arn't you ;)


The city's history and heritage is threatened because of a concrete lump. Something are priceless and should not be meddled with.
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#16 New Stadium

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Posted 22 Oct 2009 - 11:57

Or a friend of Merseyrail ;).


You have no idea of what makes a stadium a success - read my posts again. Rapid-transit rail right to the door does. If it is easy to get to they turn up. Just accept it and then shout if a stadium is proposed without it. Like the one on SP and the one in Kikby.

Edited by New Stadium, 22 Oct 2009 - 11:58.

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#17 jamiemaher85

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Posted 22 Oct 2009 - 13:30

Look mate you might have strong views but there is no point trying to ram it down peoples throats. This is a forum for discusion and so far you have not tried to engage in debate, simply state your opinion and shout down everyone elses. Treating Louis for example like he knows nothing is very rude as on this board he is one of the most in the know people on this subject. If you open the scope of your views then maybe people would welcome a debate with you, but as it stands people are just going to be flippant as your posts come accross rude and single-minded.
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#18 Not Happy

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Posted 22 Oct 2009 - 14:07

Look mate you might have strong views but there is no point trying to ram it down peoples throats. This is a forum for discusion and so far you have not tried to engage in debate, simply state your opinion and shout down everyone elses. Treating Louis for example like he knows nothing is very rude as on this board he is one of the most in the know people on this subject. If you open the scope of your views then maybe people would welcome a debate with you, but as it stands people are just going to be flippant as your posts come accross rude and single-minded.


This is the sort of personal attack I was on about. This post was not about the topic in question at all. It is clear you do not like peopel countering the views of an establisghed member, as no one in your mind can oppose the views of the "old boys club".

New Stadium added spice and new dimension. It is best to stock to the debating points and keep personal attacks to yourself. If you want a club where you all think the same way and pat each other on the back then have a full not seen by anyone else forum. In an open forum stick to the points in question.
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#19 StevO

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Posted 22 Oct 2009 - 21:58

not happy - if you dont like the way we run things around here, it might be worth you finding another forum.

new stadium - in more than one topic people have asked you questions which you constantly work around rather than answering. for some reason you think telling us about your views will make a change. how about you try contacting the club with your ideas, as we actually have no control over this.
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#20 jamiemaher85

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Posted 22 Oct 2009 - 22:28

This is the sort of personal attack I was on about. This post was not about the topic in question at all. It is clear you do not like peopel countering the views of an establisghed member, as no one in your mind can oppose the views of the "old boys club".

New Stadium added spice and new dimension. It is best to stock to the debating points and keep personal attacks to yourself. If you want a club where you all think the same way and pat each other on the back then have a full not seen by anyone else forum. In an open forum stick to the points in question.

Look everyone knows that you and New Stadium are one in the same. Is it just a happy coincidence that you have the same IP add? I think not. My point was that I would be happy to instigate in debate with you or your multiple personalities. I rather enjoy discusing matters that will heavily effect both the great football club that is Everton and the great city that is Liverpool. My problem was that you where not interested in participating in a discusion. You simply wanted to state your belief and tell everyone else they where wrong. I was not standing up for Louis because he was an established member, I stuck up for him because you dismissed his comments out of hand and questioned his knowledge without a second thought. I respect that you have cleadly put alot of time and thought into the Walton Park site and are clearly passionate about both Everton and Liverpool City, it would be nice if everyone could be like this. HOWEVER, you need to be able to look at both sides of the picture. If you cant consider and discuss other options then how do you expect other people to respect your points.

It would be nice if you could give a real considered response to this and start to contribute in a more considerate manner rather than just calling people out. Also having the balls to admit that you are the same person as New Stadium may be a big help. I love Everton. I Love Liverpool City. I want the best for both parties and I am willing to discuss both these issues. But DISCUSS is the main word there. It's not a one man mission, this is a board for many people to discuss isuues. If you cant do this then please please PLEASE choose another board.

I feel I have been fair and balanced here and I am not trying to embarres you or anything like that, but seriously man get a grip. People might come around to your proposals if you could simply be more personable.
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#21 Louis

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Posted 23 Oct 2009 - 09:06

http://forum.keioc.n....php?f=1&t=1049 :blink:
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#22 jamiemaher85

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Posted 23 Oct 2009 - 10:23

http://forum.keioc.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1049 :blink:

:blink: Oh dear. This guy's lovelly isn't he! I like that he thinks he "won" the argument on here! He never entered a true debate so how could he win? :lol:
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#23 Bill

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Posted 23 Oct 2009 - 10:30

Who is TT_ Blue. ??
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#24 MikeO

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Posted 23 Oct 2009 - 10:42

Who is TT_ Blue. ??

Me :) .
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#25 Bill

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Posted 23 Oct 2009 - 10:44

Nice one Mike well done.
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#26 duncanmckenzieismagic

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Posted 23 Oct 2009 - 13:36

http://forum.keioc.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1049 :blink:




Lol This guy truely is delusional!
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