Moyes should go/Moyes should stay

[SimonButtle]

This is our biggest problem at the moment, not Moyes. Like I said, we have no idea what Moyes could do with money, the same way we have no idea what would happen of Moyes left, the same way we don't know where would would be if we had never employed Moyes! The first thing as a club we need is BK out and investment in, otherwise we will just be I the same situation as we r now. Yes we could possibly have win the cup under a different manager but that is not Gunna happen year in year out! We can't compete without cash!!! Even SAF wouldnt compete with the amounts of cash we don't have.

Moyes IS the problem in a sense though, you can have all the money in the world, but if the manager decides at half time he is going to sit the game out and try to defend for 45mins then that is down to Moyes, not Kenwright nor the players

[Romey 1878]

Realistically on paper is our squad as good as the RS. If we sold all our players and they sold theirs, who would have the most cash in thier pocket? Who would sell their players first! On papered should be no where near them, but we r! Like I said, let Moyes spend a combined £60 mill on two strickers and then see if we can or cannot compete against them, I bet we could cause Moyes is a far better coach than that sour faced prick in charge at anfield!!

 

 

On paper we should be near them. They spent £35million and £20million on Carroll and Henderson but they're not actually playrs that should have cost that much, so your argument there is slightly flawed no? Let's talk ability, that's what I'm talking about when I say we're as good as them. Nothing to do with money. But if you want to talk money then let's do it. Sunderland have spent far more than us and remind me what we did to them not that long ago... Oh yes, we annihilated them.

[Hafnia]

I just want you all to bottle this feeling, the next time I come out with negative (realistic) shite open it up and take a whiff.

 

Again, for those of you who are under 35 - everton are not plucky, peoples club, punching above their weight etc etc.

 

I was a Liverpool fan until my brother took me to my first ever game, I was meant to go against Sheffield Wednesday where heath got stretchered off but I wanted to go the Christmas fayre?! I went the next game - we beat forest 5-0, Liverpool was the team I supported because it matched the name of a city, Everton?! Where is that? That's the mentality of an 8 year old from across the water. None the less I loved it, next game Doncaster 2-0, my brother kept taking me because I was good luck!

 

It wasn't luck, we were good and we were massive, it was a great time, mullets, semi Flairs, tacchini track suits, the mighty wah, Alison moyet, ford sierras, but yeah we were good - was I spoilt? Yeah - do I care? Do I fuck.

 

Everton are huge, fuckin massive, it's fans who see me as a moaner, negative etc etc that dilute our name - get ambitious!!! Call out that lying greedy egomaniac of a chairman, question Phillip tax dodging green, demand egm's agm's whatever they are - ask why our £70k a week horse owning manager serves up shite in important matches.

 

I want everton go be what it is when I first went, some (mikeo) are lucky to have seen ball, Harvey, Kendall, and seen the late 70's early 80's where we fell only to rise again. What are we seeing now??? Treading water that's what it is.

 

Cahill summed up the club perfectly yesterday, jelavic went berserk at skyrtel for stamping on him, good old tim who socialises with all the red shite told him off and gave skyrtel a pat?! What the fuck?!!! Did he hit the deck like jelavic, infuriated that the game was lost? Did he bollocks, he along with Gibson and gueye were just happy to be there. Neville showed yesterday that despite being technically shite can play on the big stage.

 

Rant over, but please do not continue to accept this, it's the hope that destroys you and mine is fading. Absolutely gutted.

[Mogsy]

 

 

 

On paper we should be near them. They spent £35million and £20million on Carroll and Henderson but they're not actually playrs that should have cost that much, so your argument there is slightly flawed no? Let's talk ability, that's what I'm talking about when I say we're as good as them. Nothing to do with money. But if you want to talk money then let's do it. Sunderland have spent far more than us and remind me what we did to them not that long ago... Oh yes, we annihilated them.

 

Has Moyes ever spent 25, 20, 35 million on a player? No , and I'm sure he would by better players with that money than Dogliesh has! And as for your argument about Sunderland, that totally undoes any argument about Moyes, surely if they have spent loads on their team yet we have smashed them off the park who is that down too??

 

[Mogsy]

Moyes IS the problem in a sense though, you can have all the money in the world, but if the manager decides at half time he is going to sit the game out and try to defend for 45mins then that is down to Moyes, not Kenwright nor the players

 

Agreed, and i have never defended his tactics, in fact I said earlier I don't agree with them, but we have to look at the bigger picture here, and that doesn't mean settling for what we've got, it's called 'facing facts' we can never consistently compete without cash. Doesn't matter who is manager. Chelsea couldn't, Man city couldn't, and I personally don't like the fact but 'Cash is king' in football. Who was the last team to regularly break into the top four/five without cash, who consistently gets to cup finals without cash, yes there are one offs in cups, mainly due to the top teams fielding weakens teams cause of the league or champions league,.

Edited April 15, 2012 by mogsy

[Romey 1878]

Has Moyes ever spent 25, 20, 35 million on a player? No , and I'm sure he would by better players with that money than Dogliesh has! And as for your argument about Sunderland, that totally undoes any argument about Moyes, surely if they have spent loads on their team yet we have smashed them off the park who is that down too??

 

 

That's my point, don't you get it? You were using money as an argument for why Liverpool beat us yesterday but it's not. Liverpool spent that much on players that weren't worth that much, their true value would be around what we've spent on our players in reality, because their ability is no better than what we have.

 

And again your Sunderland point, you're not getting it at all. What I said doesn't disprove what I said, it proves it. Moyes' attitude and mindstate is costing us. Sunderland have spent more than us but did he send us out there to defend against them? No, we took the game to them and completely dismantled them. So why when it comes to playing Liverpool does he do it? It's fucking frustrating.

[Hafnia]

Totally agree with romey. It's dickheads like moyes who put that shite on a mantelpiece. Money has fuck all to do with it.

 

If ferguson managed us yesterday we would have beaten that lot. Cahill wouldn't have played for starters. That pitch was a leveller - by that I mean pace and spring was minimalised, I've played on pitches like that and even when I was rapid and could jump like a stag the advantage was nullified.

 

If anyone wants to excuse him based on money then get at the board and get them out. If you want to look at it properly both factors need removing.

[Mogsy]

 

 

 

That's my point, don't you get it? You were using money as an argument for why Liverpool beat us yesterday but it's not. Liverpool spent that much on players that weren't worth that much, their true value would be around what we've spent on our players in reality, because their ability is no better than what we have.

 

And again your Sunderland point, you're not getting it at all. What I said doesn't disprove what I said, it proves it. Moyes' attitude and mindstate is costing us. Sunderland have spent more than us but did he send us out there to defend against them? No, we took the game to them and completely dismantled them. So why when it comes to playing Liverpool does he do it? It's fucking frustrating.

 

Don't you get it?? I'm not and have never said that they beat us because they have more money, I'm saying Moyes has done remarkable well to compete at that level cause he hasn't got any! Maybe I didn't write it correctly!!! And Sunderland have bought even shitter players with their cash than Liverpool.

Edited April 15, 2012 by mogsy

[SimonButtle]

Don't you get it?? I'm not and have never said that they beat us because they have more money, I'm saying Moyes has done remarkable well to compete at that level cause he hasn't got any! Maybe I didn't write it correctly!!! And Sunderland have bought even shitter players with their cash than Liverpool.

But up until 2 seasons ago(i think) Moyes had spent more in his time here than Wenger had at Arsenal, ok you can factor in things like amounts at certain times etc etc, but the in the cold light of day he had spent more, so the money argument is meaningless imo.

[Romey 1878]

Don't you get it?? I'm not and have never said that they beat us because they have more money, I'm saying Moyes has done remarkable well to compete at that level cause he hasn't got any! Maybe I didn't write it correctly!!! And Sunderland have bought even shitter players with their cash than Liverpool.

 

 

He's not competing at Liverpool's level though is he? He constantly belittles his own players ability in comparison to theirs but they are no better, despite their price tags. And yes Sunderland have bought shitter players, but Moyes doesn't let what they've spent get in the way of how he sets us up, what he says before the game, his own attitude to the game. He's got a mental block when it comes to that shower and something needs to change.

 

I wasn't around when we were the best but, as the song says, if you know your history... and I know mine and won't be forgetting it any time soon, and I want us to be the best and while Moyes is in charge it doesn't look like it'll ever happen unless his mindset changes. That includes pushing the board, not just just his attitude to games.

[Mogsy]

But up until 2 seasons ago(i think) Moyes had spent more in his time here than Wenger had at Arsenal, ok you can factor in things like amounts at certain times etc etc, but the in the cold light of day he had spent more, so the money argument is meaningless imo.

 

I think the arsenal thing is that their net spend is lower than evertons, they have spent more than us but they have sold players at a higher price as well.

[Hafnia]

You know what moyes is... A world class number 2.

 

Send him to watch opponents, look at players, scout, take training (once he's been told what he is to drill them for) - he is a great organiser. I know someone who is friends with the lad who does the analysis and moyes leaves no stone unturned - he works his staff hard, and I mean hard.

 

Unfortunately I think this is moyesys undoing, he works so hard - so when someone like Royston ticky shows up with not a care in the world but a sack load of talent, a heavy sack, and can't get out the sack it pisses him off!

 

Busby was a great manager, and best was the biggest pain in the backside to manage - did he drop him??? No, he knew it wouldn't change him, would ferguson have saved gascoigne??? No. Maybe he wouldn't have been so destructive to his own talent but ultimately these players are what they are because of who they are and their genetics. Moyes will never be able to manage a drogba, Rooney, van persie, tevez, Suarez, and probably even messi. They know the game, they know that what they have can't be coached by an ex second rate centre half but moyes can't handle that. He has to be "the man"

[s-mackie]

On paper we should be near them. They spent £35million and £20million on Carroll and Henderson but they're not actually playrs that should have cost that much, so your argument there is slightly flawed no? Let's talk ability, that's what I'm talking about when I say we're as good as them. Nothing to do with money. But if you want to talk money then let's do it. Sunderland have spent far more than us and remind me what we did to them not that long ago... Oh yes, we annihilated them.

 

That's exactly it in a paragraph. People can talk about the finances all they want. Yes, we probably would be making more progress if we had more cash to spend, but if you look at the team Moyes put out yesterday, or a team that he could have put out, then the money argument holds no weight. Man for man we should have matched them, and then gone on to prove we are better than them. Realistically there are only 5 players that I would have from them in our starting XI. Reina in goal, Kelly at RB, POSSIBLY Skrtel/Agger for Distin, Gerrard in CM and Suarez in the hole (solely based on playing ability). I say possibly for the two CBs because Distin has been outstanding this season, althought Skrtel has been impressive for them this season and offers a better goal threat. With that in mind, in terms of the footballing ability of the two sides you'd say we are pretty equal to them, if not possibly better. It's not the ability that's in question though, it's delivering when it matters as the likes of Utd do.

 

We're a big club with a small team mentality whilst Liverpool have got the mentality for the big occasion that matches the size of their club. We were overawed by the occasion and never played well. We should have gone for the jugular once we went a goal up but bottled it and sat back inviting them onto us despite the fact that they had barely threatened us before that.

 

They played our CBs cleverly second half in fairness. Suarez was getting nothing out of Heitinga first half and was getting frustrated, so he moved on to Distin. Carroll moved on to Heitinga but it was Suarez moving on to Distin that made all the difference. Like at Anfield he made him feel uncomfortable with his dribbling. Distin was always back tracking whilst Heitinga in the first half was more aggressive and snide with Suarez which worked.

[Mogsy]

We are a big club? We were a big club many moons ago I'm afraid! I'm lucky to just remember the eighties, but I also remember the 90's and what we have now is while lot better than the 90's, and to be honest all this talk about history is starting to sound like the CRAP all those red shite supporters spout about how many trophies they have won and how the should be competing for the league! Deal in the here and know people! We will never compete with our current board regardless of who is managing the team!

[s-mackie]

I'd say we are a big club yes. Not as big as we once were but with the potential to be with sufficient investment. I think it's silly to just disregard history, that's what makes us the club we are today. Without that history we'd be nothing. Our history is big and we're a big club. That being said, you're right about the here and now- we won't progress to become true greats without change of the boardroom.

[Romey 1878]

We're just a small club from Merseyside, small club from Merseyside, we're just a small club from Merseyside!

 

Sing it.

 

Getting to Wembley is enough, we got a good day out of it. After all, we never stood a chance of winning anyway because Liverpool have spent £35million on Andy Carroll. Finishing seventh is no longer a platform to build upon, it's as good as it gets.

 

Do you know what I don't get? Moyes put all his eggs in one basket for this cup and then completely bottled it. If we'd gone for it and still lost then you can take that on the chin, even though it still hurts, but to lose after not even giving it a go? I can't accept that.

[Mogsy]

Finishing seventh is no longer a platform to build upon, it's as good as it gets.

 

How the hell do we build upon seventh place without cash?? Explain that one to me cause I can't see how?

[Romey 1878]

How the hell do we build upon seventh place without cash?? Explain that one to me cause I can't see how?

 

 

Did we not finish fourth and sixth with no cash? Same manager, worse players, different mindset. I'm not good with numbers but I'm sure they're better finishing positions than seventh.

 

Money isn't everything (I obviously want us to be taken over though) but Moyes and the players should and can perform better, they've both proven it!

[s-mackie]

How the hell do we build upon seventh place without cash?? Explain that one to me cause I can't see how?

 

By changing our mindset and playing more attack minded football. We've got the players for it but a manager who seemingly can only take us so far. Flair players like Barkley need to have a look in- he's barely seen the bench since a mistake against Blackburn at the start of the season.

[Mogsy]

 

 

 

Did we not finish fourth and sixth with no cash? Same manager, worse players, different mindset. I'm not good with numbers but I'm sure they're better finishing positions than seventh.

 

Money isn't everything (I obviously want us to be taken over though) but Moyes and the players should and can perform better, they've both proven it!

 

Sorry don't want to argue every point, but do you remember how many points we had one we achieved forth? I seem to remember was one of the lowest points haul ever for forth place?

 

I would love to see us up there competing week in week out, but I just can't see it with the board, and maybe if we had cash Moyes wouldn't be the right man but at the moment it's gotta be 'better the devil you know' and staying in the prem has got to be the priority over anything else. I've said eairlier that I agree that yesterday was the best chance we have had or possibly will have to progress to winning the cup, but I'm not into one offs, just like forth place was a one off! I would rather us stay in the prem than win a cup next year and get relegated a la Portsmouth. Which could be a distinct possibility if we got in the wrong manager instead of Moyes. A few months ago I was so pissed with Moyes I was in the camp for change, but the last few weeks I've changed my mind, having seen Swansea go on a bad run, it doesn't take much to get sucked towards a relegation battle(although they look safe now) and it could do easily happen to us if we r not careful, which Moyes is! If we go down we would never get investment and I think we would struggle to come back up

[s-mackie]

It's difficult. I saw in an article before the following phrase which, for me, sums it up perfectly: 'We won't win anything with Moyes but we won't survive without him.'

 

It would be a hard job for whoever came in after him. I'd imagine plenty of players would be keen to move on after Moyes' 'legacy', if you can put it that way..

[Romey 1878]

Sorry don't want to argue every point, but do you remember how many points we had one we achieved forth? I seem to remember was one of the lowest points haul ever for forth place?

 

I would love to see us up there competing week in week out, but I just can't see it with the board, and maybe if we had cash Moyes wouldn't be the right man but at the moment it's gotta be 'better the devil you know' and staying in the prem has got to be the priority over anything else. I've said eairlier that I agree that yesterday was the best chance we have had or possibly will have to progress to winning the cup, but I'm not into one offs, just like forth place was a one off! I would rather us stay in the prem than win a cup next year and get relegated a la Portsmouth. Which could be a distinct possibility if we got in the wrong manager instead of Moyes. A few months ago I was so pissed with Moyes I was in the camp for change, but the last few weeks I've changed my mind, having seen Swansea go on a bad run, it doesn't take much to get sucked towards a relegation battle(although they look safe now) and it could do easily happen to us if we r not careful, which Moyes is! If we go down we would never get investment and I think we would struggle to come back up

 

 

Does it matter? We've still better with worse players, so we could improve on seventh.

 

You seem to think that this is all about yesterday, it's not, it's deeper than that, yesterday was just another in a long line of the same mistakes. I'd rather us stay in the Premiership than win a cup too, it's not about the cup, it's about the performance we put in yesterday (from manager and players). I said we shouldn't prioritise the cup over the league so I'm not really sure what your point is there tbh.

 

Lets just agree to disagree yeah? You think we can't compete on the field with Liverpool (and the likes) because we can't compete off it with them and I don't.

[Dalziel Kane]

My main frustration is Moyes inability to deliver a trophy, he's had chances to do it, sounding like a broken down record but it's been seventeen years now without a trophy to pick up, no side has any divine right to win anything, but for a club of Everton's stature some would say, simply not good enough, some of our supporters, a fair number in fact, have never seen, never know what it feels like to see Everton win anything, and I can understand their frustrations, even those of a certain age who have seen the club be big and successful, it's been nearly two decades now without any silver or honors and even that would appear a little too long. The manager of the club has a certain duty to deliver things, pick the teams, motivate the players etc, has an objective, gets things done etc, and sometimes I just feel Moyes is incapable of this, seems to go to sea when the going gets tough or when we get within striking distance of an actual trophy it usually ends in the same style, see yesterday as another illustration.

 

Some people seem content to survive for each season, getting a 6th or 7th place finish under Moyes but there's no end product from it in way of actual trophies won, 'safety first is Moyes priority it seems'. The league I can understand, we can't compete with the Sky Four but I'd like maybe someone who can come in and show some ruthless agression or show a bit of fight and determination when the going gets tough or when there's an actual chance of glory ahead and see it through. It's something Moyes is unable to orchestrate, sorry.

[Lowensda]

Sorry, just woken up, thought I was reading the same arguments again. The players out there were better than the team Liverpool put out (collectively speaking) yesterday. With more belief we'd have had them, no question, we bottled it completely. Liverpool didn't have to play well to beat us, that says a lot for me. Still gutted how we rolled over...

[Dalziel Kane]

It's still frustrates now even some 26 hours after the event, I thought we had more than them before start of play and was confident of a success but the players simply didn't utilize the difference to our advantage, and that's the key thing isn't it, bottle or whatever, we simply lose the stomach for a battle at a certain critical point and other teams either take advantage or we simply can't play as we should, so fucking frustrating sometimes.

 

We'll be watching (some of us) in a month or two when the shite play whichever opposition in the final showpiece event, and you know you'll be looking on and thinking 'that could have been us, should have been us etc'. That's what will hurt the most, especially as it was them that beat us when we failed to turn up second half.

 

You would think after a while these things would become a learning experience maybe, but Moyes or whoever simply doesn't get educated..

[BoroBlue]

If the best team on paper won every game football would be very boring. I agree that was a massive opportunity missed for us but thats football. To me we looked nervous from the off and never really looked relaxed enough to play our natural game which would have won us the game. I would have picked the exact same team we started with, unfortunately we just didn't perform on the day.

 

I still think we are looking strong for next season, we have a good strong core of players and some exciting talent coming through the ranks, I do think we need to get rid of a few of the fringe players though and raise what funds we can from transfer fees and saved wages, aswell as giving an opportunity for more game time for some of the younger lads.

[c1982]

Once again this thread/forum shows how fickle football fans are... if we had won Moyes would be Moysiah (he probably wouldn't actually - it would have been brushed over) until if we lost in the final. The majority of us would have picked the team he put out yesterday, yes we may have liked Drenthe's impact but none of us know the full story there. The fact is we looked comfortable enough in the 1st half but the game turned on the Distin mistake and we never really came back from that. Yeah it may have been the tactics or lack of by Moyes and many of the players must be accountable. Maybe it is time (I personally disagree), his record away to 'bigger' teams is awful and we've failed once again on the biggest stage so what do we (EFC) do? Would people on here want Moyes sacked then? The football world would think EFC are mad and who would want to come to us after that?! Basically it's not happening, the only way Moyes will go is if he moves on to a different job or runs his contract down - so we can stop the sack Moyes nonsense now. As for his replacement, I'd struggle to name many available managers who would take us on from what Moyes has already done. Rodgers, Martinez, Lambert... all under contract - remember we don't have a lot of money to buy-out a managers contract...

 

It annoys me the doomsdayers who highlight our faults and have managed to ignore a lot of the good that has happened in recent weeks. We all want EFC to be the best but we're not. Kenny is probably 'King' again today... does that mean he's doing a good job at that lot? We need to stand by and support Moyes while he is here - none of us know what would/could happen without him. Maybe if this 'investment' suddenly appeared the situation could be reviewed but for anyone to suggest Moyes has been anything but an excellent manager for EFC needs their head checking! Manager of the year 3 times is it?

[Dalziel Kane]

No, if Moyes had won, some would say, still the dour, defensive, tentative individual he is, but as manager of the club and all that's responsible, probably pushed aside in one spontaneous moment of achievement, but you can't change what the man clearly is or represents sometimes. It's like the derby game in the league, Moyes took a serious backlash, we play Sunderland, Moyes gets plaudits and recognition, we have the semi-final and poor old Moyes gets it in the neck again, either supporters are plain fickle or we simply react to the times and results of incidents.

 

I want Moyes to do well, to win things, but the frustration levels can be overbearing sometimes, we've all felt it.

 

In the simplest terms, do you see Everton FC winning anything so long as Moyes is manager?, be honest and say no. I'm afraid some people can't look beyond that, myself sometimes, I mean a trophy again would be nice, but Mr Moyes is not the individual to deliver such a thing, I'd like to be proved wrong of course, but not sure how much longer he will remain in charge whichever way he chooses to leave.

 

A good manager, Yes, turned it around, OK, had some moments of recognition, I see that, but I could murder for that man sometimes..

[c1982]

Who will win us this trophy with our resources then?

 

If Moyes had an extra £10m a season to spend then I believe yes he would win a trophy. Put Donovan and Pienaar on the wings yesterday and I believe we would have won with some comfort.

[SimonButtle]

Who will win us this trophy with our resources then?

 

If Moyes had an extra £10m a season to spend then I believe yes he would win a trophy. Put Donovan and Pienaar on the wings yesterday and I believe we would have won with some comfort.

None of that makes any difference if the manager is going to instruct the team to sit back and invite the other team on for 45mins.