European elections 2017

[MikeO]

anyone thinking the EU is (if not falling apart) beginning to shake a wee bit?

 

No.

[Chach]

 

That's because a good chunk of the population currently is right wing and don't like anyone questioning their viewpoint, even if it be in a non-partisan way. The BBC is not left wing, the suggestion is pure fantasy put forward by people who don't like their opinions challenged; if the country was predominantly left wing the majority would accuse the beeb of being right wing because they wouldn't want their opinions challenged.

 

The BBC is probably the one and only news outlet in the country that comes from a totally neutral perspective, it's probably one of the few in the World; we should be immensely proud of it. My car radio is always on 5live and (when they're talking politics) I spend just as much time shouting at it as I do applauding it.

 

We get exactly the same criticism of the ABC (aussie version of the BBC) from right wingers here, to the point it was getting openly attacked by our then tory PM and getting its funding cut.

This country, outside the ABC is also dominated by media controlled by Murdoch, I wonder if there might be a correlation.

[holystove]

 

That's because a good chunk of the population currently is right wing and don't like anyone questioning their viewpoint, even if it be in a non-partisan way. The BBC is not left wing, the suggestion is pure fantasy put forward by people who don't like their opinions challenged; if the country was predominantly left wing the majority would accuse the beeb of being right wing because they wouldn't want their opinions challenged.

 

Interesting point of view. I always assumed it was mainly the other way around : the popular press is right-wing, so their readers (if they read nothing else) will be right-wing as well. If I only read the Daily Express for example, I wouldn't just say the EU is shaking a wee bit, I'd say it'll be lucky not to collapse before the end of April. (not implying the EU is necessarily a left or right-wing issue).

 

I also agree about the BBC. If both Corbyn supporters and UKIP supporters think you're overly critical of them, you're probably right there in the middle.

[johnh]

 

That's because a good chunk of the population currently is right wing and don't like anyone questioning their viewpoint, even if it be in a non-partisan way. The BBC is not left wing, the suggestion is pure fantasy put forward by people who don't like their opinions challenged; if the country was predominantly left wing the majority would accuse the beeb of being right wing because they wouldn't want their opinions challenged.

 

The BBC is probably the one and only news outlet in the country that comes from a totally neutral perspective, it's probably one of the few in the World; we should be immensely proud of it. My car radio is always on 5live and (when they're talking politics) I spend just as much time shouting at it as I do applauding it.

 

Who said the BBC is left wing? It is ultra Liberal (though there are those who would say there is little difference). The BBC at senior management level is stuffed with the liberal elite.

[pete0]

I've always found the BBC to be a Tory haven of paedophiles.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12177987/Jimmy-Savile-Vote-Conservative-hoax-spreads-on-social-media.html

Edited April 26, 2017 by pete0

[markjazzbassist]

Same thing with NPR (national public radio) and PBS (public broadcasting service) here in the states. The right wingers say they are lefty liberals. Funny cause surveys and independent analysis shows its listeners/viewers lean center right. My wife worked for NPR and said her colleagues were as diverse politically as the US is .

 

Conservatives love blaming the media.

[MikeO]

 

Who said the BBC is left wing? It is ultra Liberal (though there are those who would say there is little difference). The BBC at senior management level is stuffed with the liberal elite.

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one John .

 

Unless you want to take it outside :shaking fist:. Actually no wait a minute, you were a centre back so ignore that bit .

[johnh]

 

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one John .

 

Unless you want to take it outside :shaking fist:. Actually no wait a minute, you were a centre back so ignore that bit .

Mike, it will take me so long to get outside that you will get fed up and go home.

[rubecula]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/39719866

[holystove]

Marine Le Pen has resigned as leader of her party.

the guy who replaced her, now himself replaced by some new guy. this is like when farage quit as head of ukip and not a week later MEPs for ukip were throwing punches in parliament.

 

the far right quickly becomes pathetic once you cut off its head.

[Matt]

Mike, it will take me so long to get outside that you will get fed up and go home.

quick, gettim! Wait, that's not Tim

[holystove]

Couple more days until French election. LePen now backtracking on EURO exit, because polls show French massively against exit.

 

Before week is over she'll be talking about the benefits of immigration.

[MikeO]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-39779548/le-pen-accused-of-copycat-speech

 

Oops.

[markjazzbassist]

Couple more days until French election. LePen now backtracking on EURO exit, because polls show French massively against exit.

 

Before week is over she'll be talking about the benefits of immigration.

 

LOL her father is probably rolling in his grave. once the power is so close people will do anything to get it. sad really.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-39779548/le-pen-accused-of-copycat-speech

 

Oops.

 

Macron had the lead before i think he's running away with it now.

[MikeO]

 

LOL her father is probably rolling in his grave. once the power is so close people will do anything to get it. sad really.

 

Odious man obviously but I think I'd draw the line at burying him before he was actually dead.

[markjazzbassist]

 

Odious man obviously but I think I'd draw the line at burying him before he was actually dead.

 

my bad, i thought he had passed. she's been uninvited from boxing day now.

[MikeO]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-39823865

[nyblue23]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-39823865

A small bit of sanity.

[MikeO]

A small bit of sanity.

Indeed, at least one country in the world hasn't gone barking mad.

[Matt]

Indeed, at least one country in the world hasn't gone barking mad.

dont forget the Dutch too

[holystove]

He was always going to win, but noone expected it to be this big of a landslide.

 

I love the story that came out recently about how they expected to be attacked by hackers, so his campaign planted false information on phishing pages to confuse the hackers.

 

Also love he came onto the podium to give his victory speech while 'Ode to Joy' was playing

 

EDIT.

this is pretty great too:

 

Nigel Farage, former leader of British anti-EU party UKIP, who backed Le Pen, said on Twitter: 'A giant deceit has been voted for today. Macron will be Juncker's puppet.'

In The Netherlands, Dutch far-right leader Geert Wilders commiserated with Le Pen, saying in a tweet: 'Well done anyway @MLP-officiel millions of patriots voted for you! You will win next time - and so will I!'

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by holystove

[holystove]

dont forget the Dutch too

 

and the Austrians .. although that was still a fairly close one. In Holland and France, the alt-right was pretty much blown away.

[johnh]

I see Macron is visiting his new boss, Angela. It will be interesting to see how Macron's pledge to reform the EU, and particularly the euro, goes down with Merkel.

He can't be seen to fail so early in his tenure. My guess is that he will do a 'Cameron' and return to Paris with the square root of sod all and hail it as a major success.

[holystove]

I see Macron is visiting his new boss, Angela. It will be interesting to see how Macron's pledge to reform the EU, and particularly the euro, goes down with Merkel.

He can't be seen to fail so early in his tenure. My guess is that he will do a 'Cameron' and return to Paris with the square root of sod all and hail it as a major success.

 

It's a long standing tradition that the new German or new French political leader meet each other one of the first days of being inaugurated. Merkel has been in power for a very long time now, so Sarkozy, Hollande and Macron went to Berlin. On her first day in office, she went to Paris to visit Chirac.

 

I thought you'd be glad to hear Macron speak about the euro. I remember you posting about the need for a banking union, maybe even eurobonds, to get a currency that can handle a possible future shock to global finance. Today, Spain have released their proposal which even included a common unemployment fund ... a lot of these proposals seem a bit much to me, but I guess no better time for reform than now, with economic growth in the eurozone outpacing US, UK, etc., and public support for both EU and euro higher than ever.

Still, there won't be a lot of movement on this , or brexit, till after the German elections. If Merkel wins (likely) there will be reforms, but limited; if Schulz wins, EU federalism will shift into higher gear.

[johnh]

 

It's a long standing tradition that the new German or new French political leader meet each other one of the first days of being inaugurated. Merkel has been in power for a very long time now, so Sarkozy, Hollande and Macron went to Berlin. On her first day in office, she went to Paris to visit Chirac.

 

I thought you'd be glad to hear Macron speak about the euro. I remember you posting about the need for a banking union, maybe even eurobonds, to get a currency that can handle a possible future shock to global finance. Today, Spain have released their proposal which even included a common unemployment fund ... a lot of these proposals seem a bit much to me, but I guess no better time for reform than now, with economic growth in the eurozone outpacing US, UK, etc., and public support for both EU and euro higher than ever.

Still, there won't be a lot of movement on this , or brexit, till after the German elections. If Merkel wins (likely) there will be reforms, but limited; if Schulz wins, EU federalism will shift into higher gear.

 

Yes, I am glad to hear Macron speak about the euro. The current structure is high risk and a failure of the euro wouldn't be good for anyone. The problem is that Germany are against many of the changes which are required, particularly debt sharing. Germany are quite happy with the current set-up which, after all, has given them the highest current account surplus in the world economy (even though it exceeds EU rules and has done for some years). I back Macron in his attempt to reform the EU but when he comes up against German self-interest I think he is on a loser.

[holystove]

 

Yes, I am glad to hear Macron speak about the euro. The current structure is high risk and a failure of the euro wouldn't be good for anyone. The problem is that Germany are against many of the changes which are required, particularly debt sharing. Germany are quite happy with the current set-up which, after all, has given them the highest current account surplus in the world economy (even though it exceeds EU rules and has done for some years). I back Macron in his attempt to reform the EU but when he comes up against German self-interest I think he is on a loser.

 

Yes, German public opinion will be key in this. Right after the election of Macron, Bild (German tabloid) ran a headline "How much is Macron going to cost us?".... Bit silly considering France is also a big net-contributor.

 

I am optimistic about the reforms because Merkel has shown she is not afraid to stand up to tabloids (opening borders to refugees) and because her next term will be her last. I'm sure she won't want to be remebered as the European leader who let the opportunity for real positive reform go by.

 

I also think the Germans have realised that it is in their self-interest to forego short-term gain in favour of a sustainable EU (and euro) which is the only guarantee of long-term success. Brexit has shown you can't take the EU for granted.

 

We shall see how it turns out.

[johnh]

Had to allow myself a wry smile this morning reading the report on the Macron/Merkel meeting. (Telegraph, so could be fake news ) Merkel decided to weild the EU's weapon of choice - bureaucracy and time. She effectively kicked Macron's proposals into the long grass saying, 'The whole world is changing, that is why Germany is ready to change the treaties'. She then went on to say 'First, we need to work on what we want to change and then if it turns out it needs a treaty change, we're prepared to do that'. Well, I reckon that bought her 15 years (considering the Canada trade deal took nearly 10 years).

In the meantime, in classical EU tactics, Wolfgang Schaeuble. Germany's foreign minister, announced the real response saying such radical EU reforms were 'not realistic'. He also shot down the idea of a eurozone finance minister for the same reasons.

Still, Macron will be able to return to France and declare that his proposals had not been rejected out of hand and would be carefully debated within the EU (over the next 15 years)

 

My comment in brackets.

[holystove]

I was looking for the report you mention on the Telegraph website, as it's always interesting to read an account of European politics with the anti-EU / pro-brexit spin of the Telegraph, and came across this quote from Belusconi in one of the articles:

 

"Emmanuel Macron is a nice lad - with a good looking mum"

[johnh]

I was looking for the report you mention on the Telegraph website, as it's always interesting to read an account of European politics with the anti-EU / pro-brexit spin of the Telegraph, and came across this quote from Belusconi in one of the articles:

 

"Emmanuel Macron is a nice lad - with a good looking mum"

 

[holystove]

Had to allow myself a wry smile this morning reading the report on the Macron/Merkel meeting. (Telegraph, so could be fake news ) Merkel decided to weild the EU's weapon of choice - bureaucracy and time. She effectively kicked Macron's proposals into the long grass saying, 'The whole world is changing, that is why Germany is ready to change the treaties'. She then went on to say 'First, we need to work on what we want to change and then if it turns out it needs a treaty change, we're prepared to do that'. Well, I reckon that bought her 15 years (considering the Canada trade deal took nearly 10 years).

 

Just for the sake of argument some comments on what you wrote here.

 

Indeed Merkel went as far as to say a treaty change is possible. Keep in mind that a treaty change has always implied more integration. So wrong to conclude she dismissed his proposals.

In the last 20 years there have been 10(!) changes to the EU treaties of a constitutional nature. You confuse EU treaty changes with Free Trade Agreements. The latter take longer as parties are "adversaries" trying to get the best deal, whereas EU treaty changes are conluded amongst union members and reach agreement much easier.

 

 

In the meantime, in classical EU tactics, Wolfgang Schaeuble. Germany's foreign minister, announced the real response saying such radical EU reforms were 'not realistic'. He also shot down the idea of a eurozone finance minister for the same reasons.

Still, Macron will be able to return to France and declare that his proposals had not been rejected out of hand and would be carefully debated within the EU (over the next 15 years)

 

Schäuble is the German finance minister and indeed a bit of a hawk. He's over 70 years old and will be gone after next elections (september 2017).

 

However, here's what he recently said to German press (Der Spiegel):

- "financial transfers from richer to poorer states are necessary within the euro zone"

- "you can't build a community of states of varying strenghts without a certain balance"

- "a union can't exist if the stronger members don't vouch for the weaker ones"

- "I consider Macron's criticism of the high German trade surplus to be justified, however it will decline in coming years"

 

so there you go.. The Telegraph, keeping you informed