Mindless Atrocities

[holystove]

I would ask one thing, though: If religion is little more than a crutch to help the weak-minded, as many suggest, how come there are more Christians in China today than there are people in the UK and Benelux countries combined - especially when they are taught otherwise by the state, picked on, imprisoned, discriminated against, and sometimes outright killed?

 

Because citizens of Benelux and UK are mostly (scientifically) literate and live in a welfare state where, overall, they don't have to worry about their social and economic well-being. It's tough for religion to get a firm hold on people who are critical thinkers and who feel most of their needs are met in real life, rather than hoping they will be met in an after-life or in a spiritual world.

 

Why do they choose Christianity? Christianity is a great one for people who feel oppressed, because it allows them to identify with the struggles Christ and the early Christians went through. A lot in Christianity is about submission (as opposed to the more aggressive Islam). Also, if you're gonna pick a religion, why not the biggest one? Maybe there is a bandwagon effect going on there.

 

To be clear, I don't dismiss religion; it plays a valuable part in many (by my standards less advanced) societies and is definitely a bringer of hope.

Edited June 8, 2017 by holystove

[Cornish Steve]

Going back to my suggestion that a civilized nation can distinguish itself by remembering and helping the families of the attackers as well as the families of the victims: This article reveals something of the pain and shame faced by one attacker's mother. She can't be blamed for the actions of her son.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40193451

[Cornish Steve]

 

Because citizens of Benelux and UK are mostly (scientifically) literate and live in a welfare state where, overall, they don't have to worry about their social and economic well-being. It's tough for religion to get a firm hold on people who are critical thinkers and who feel most of their needs are met in real life, rather than hoping they will be met in an after-life or in a spiritual world.

 

Why do they choose Christianity? Christianity is a great one for people who feel oppressed, because it allows them to identify with the struggles Christ and the early Christians went through. A lot in Christianity is about submission (as opposed to the more aggressive Islam). Also, if you're gonna pick a religion, why not the biggest one? Maybe there is a bandwagon effect going on there.

 

To be clear, I don't dismiss religion; it plays a valuable part in many (by my standards less advanced) societies and is definitely a bringer of hope.

 

You don't jump on a bandwagon when it means certain death, but that has happened many times. It doesn't always mean death in China today, but it certainly does mean persecution and potential arrest. Admittedly, as human beings, we like to explain away awkward facts, but the willingness of so many to subject themselves to poverty, disgrace, rebuke by their families, arrest, torture, and death is very difficult to explain away.

[Cornish Steve]

 

Where are you getting those figures from re China, can you provide a source?

 

Also you've said previously that we shouldn't confuse Christians with evangelical Christians in the US, is there in your opinion a "correct" form of Christianity? If so, what is that form and how did you/they arrive at that opinion?

 

The numbers re China are in the public domain.

 

Re the "correct" form of Christianity... Basically, those who commit their lives to the person and teachings of Christ. This is evident from the "fruit" of their lives: a powerful selflessness; a concern for the poor and sick and needy and outsider; a desire to turn the other cheek, demonstrate love to enemies, and strive for peace; a willingness to give up everything in pursuit of these goals. In my experience, you can add to that a bit of an effort to keep these activities out of public sight, even to the point of anonymity.

 

I'm a little biased in that I attended an evangelical church for over 20 years and left because of its increasingly extreme social stances and worrying intolerance; maybe I'm reacting against that. Nonetheless, when I line up what evangelical leaders in the US claim are Christian opinions, I see little correlation with the teachings of Christ - and hence my earlier comment.

 

Let me emphasize, though: the Christian faith is not about beliefs or actions; it's primarily a relationship with a person. That causes jaws to drop and a level of incredulity in many observers, but so be it. Looking back on my life, I can point to many times when a person has specifically guided or intervened, with a presence that is undeniable. This lies at the very core: Actions are a result of that relationship, not a philosophy of life, per se.

 

Again, apologies for taking this thread off track. I should listen to my own advice in steering clear of public discussions like this!

[Cornish Steve]

Sorry, just one other thing: Maybe I can address the comment about religious books being just a collection of fairy tales. Almost exactly a century ago, the head of Scotland Yard, who was a devout Christian, did some careful research. He took a statement from the Old Testament about when "Israel's Messiah" would appear: 69 weeks of years from a public and known political statement at that time. He calculated the number of days, accounting for the Roman calendar, leap years, etc. and it comes out to be Palm Sunday. Fascinated by this, I did a similar calculation. If you read the crucifixion accounts carefully, it's clear there were two Sabbath days that week, so Christ was crucified on a Wednesday (not a Friday as in tradition). This would have been because, that year, Passover fell on a Thursday. The Jews use a complex mathematical formula to calculate Passover each year, so I did that calculation. Sure enough, that year it fell on a Thursday. These aren't proofs, of course, but the point is this: The more time you spend to verify details, the more surprising the results. (By the way, Isaac Newton was also fascinated by details like this and actually wrote quite a bit on the subject.)

Edited June 8, 2017 by Cornish Steve

[markjazzbassist]

 

This misses the point of science and theology though IMO which is ultimately about truth seeking, where do you draw the line between respecting someones belief and respecting someones beliefs that are harmful to others, personal anecdotes are all well and good but not everybody lives a comfortable existence in a liberal democracy.

For a liberal you seem to have an ironic foot in the conservative camp there and are uncomfortable having your traditions challenged, did any human progress ever come from "agreeing to disagree?"

 

common mistake, not all christians are conservatives. they're just the loudest and most obnoxious (the evangelical religious right), on the contrary you'll find many liberals of all faiths who embrace most faiths, like i do. also if you have ever read the jewish law you'll see many "socialist" policies such as the law of reaping and the year of jubilee. that's why i laugh when i see evangelical right wingers saying only "real christians" are conservatives. so no i don't have a foot in that camp, although my parents are firmly in that camp, so i agree to disagree when talking politics and religon and enjoy learning what they believe and why.

 

agreeing to disagree is a basic tenant of many peace deals so yes, i'd say it works rather well.

[Hafnia]

Again... why does the proposed existence of God annoy many atheists?

 

We have proved that war and murder exists largely outside of religion... atheists aren't being made to sit on the back of a bus or not allowed to sit in certain restaurants... what's the problem?

 

It's a personal choice and one that no one needs to justify or be questioned on.

[MikeO]

Again... why does the proposed existence of God annoy many atheists?

 

We have proved that war and murder exists largely outside of religion... atheists aren't being made to sit on the back of a bus or not allowed to sit in certain restaurants... what's the problem?

 

It's a personal choice and one that no one needs to justify or be questioned on.

 

Doesn't annoy me in the slightest.

[EFC-Paul]

Me neither, as I've said my daughter goes to a Catholic school due to it being a great local school but she's taken to it which was expected tbh and I'd never steer her away from it

 

I fully acknowledge the good it does and can instill I just simply don't believe in any of it

[holystove]

Me neither, as I've said my daughter goes to a Catholic school due to it being a great local school but she's taken to it which was expected tbh and I'd never steer her away from it

 

I fully acknowledge the good it does and can instill I just simply don't believe in any of it

 

Religion doesn't annoy me either .. kids go to Catholic school as well. Today my son came home singing "we walk on the water, just like Jesus" ...

[Matt]

Religion is not the problem. People abusing religion for their personal gain is.

[EFC-Paul]

 

Religion doesn't annoy me either .. kids go to Catholic school as well. Today my son came home singing "we walk on the water, just like Jesus" ...

Ha I've had similar, It is good for kids it does give some form of guidance you can't deny it hence why I won't tell her otherwise that's her own choice further down the line

 

I do sometimes wish comfort wise seeing loved ones and family members pass away that my mind could conform to it but I just can't

[Romey 1878]

Again... why does the proposed existence of God annoy many atheists?

 

We have proved that war and murder exists largely outside of religion... atheists aren't being made to sit on the back of a bus or not allowed to sit in certain restaurants... what's the problem?

 

It's a personal choice and one that no one needs to justify or be questioned on.

I'm not annoyed by it. I just don't get it in the slightest and don't believe in it. You could say I have faith that none of it is real. But I have no problem with those that do believe.

[Hafnia]

I'm not annoyed by it. I just don't get it in the slightest and don't believe in it. You could say I have faith that none of it is real. But I have no problem with those that do believe.

That's fine... a few people on here express their non belief and I'm cool with that. What I find puzzling is people who don't believe who challenge or discredit those who do.

[Cornish Steve]

Ha I've had similar, It is good for kids it does give some form of guidance you can't deny it hence why I won't tell her otherwise that's her own choice further down the line

 

I do sometimes wish comfort wise seeing loved ones and family members pass away that my mind could conform to it but I just can't

 

So you have no inherent sense that justice, ultimately, will be done? If not, why bother with justice? What is your measure of right versus wrong, and how does your conscience play into that?

 

This sounds like a silly question, but I'd love to know the answer. If you take Dawkins' arguments to their logical conclusion, we should rejoice, or at least be secretly pleased, when millions are killed in a tsunami or earthquake since that benefits us in many ways. Why, in practice, does it have the opposite effect?

[markjazzbassist]

That's fine... a few people on here express their non belief and I'm cool with that. What I find puzzling is people who don't believe who challenge or discredit those who do.

Agreed.

[Matt]

 

So you have no inherent sense that justice, ultimately, will be done? If not, why bother with justice? What is your measure of right versus wrong, and how does your conscience play into that?

 

This sounds like a silly question, but I'd love to know the answer. If you take Dawkins' arguments to their logical conclusion, we should rejoice, or at least be secretly pleased, when millions are killed in a tsunami or earthquake since that benefits us in many ways. Why, in practice, does it have the opposite effect?

I don't, any more. I lost my faith gradually since my grandad passed nearly 20 years ago. I tried to hold on but I was just kidding myself.

 

I've often admitted to being a lot happier when I had it, and I put down so much of my nature to being raised by a proud RC family. Trouble is, you cannot force yourself to have faith, and that's the crux of the matter for me. It's individual, for better or worse.

[EFC-Paul]

 

So you have no inherent sense that justice, ultimately, will be done? If not, why bother with justice? What is your measure of right versus wrong, and how does your conscience play into that?

 

This sounds like a silly question, but I'd love to know the answer. If you take Dawkins' arguments to their logical conclusion, we should rejoice, or at least be secretly pleased, when millions are killed in a tsunami or earthquake since that benefits us in many ways. Why, in practice, does it have the opposite effect?

Morality not religion dictate what is right or wrong Steve in my "book" pun intended ?

 

It depends on the environment you are brought up in or around that can dictate the measure of how severe or lenient it is

 

I don't Steve, I basically see the human body as an absolutely complex and magnificent off shoot of evolution that when the time comes simply shuts down like a computer if you will

 

It's not a nice thought I admit and not a pleasant way to view it but that's just how my mind works

[Sibdane]

Morality not religion dictate what is right or wrong Steve in my "book" pun intended

 

It depends on the environment you are brought up in or around that can dictate the measure of how severe or lenient it is

 

I don't Steve, I basically see the human body as an absolutely complex and magnificent off shoot of evolution that when the time comes simply shuts down like a computer if you will

 

It's not a nice thought I admit and not a pleasant way to view it but that's just how my mind works

I agree. I think this is the only life we've got. That thought alone makes me appreciate being alive and trying my best to be a good person, as I want to enjoy this short time.

[Cornish Steve]

Trouble is, you cannot force yourself to have faith, and that's the crux of the matter for me. It's individual, for better or worse.

 

Spot on. You cannot force yourself. Neither can you choose it, actually. When it's about a relationship with a person, as it is for me, the best you can do, with a healthy skepticism, is consciously resolve to be alert. "You were dead but now live; you were blind but now see; you were deaf but now hear", and so on.

[Matt]

Spot on. You cannot force yourself. Neither can you choose it, actually. When it's about a relationship with a person, as it is for me, the best you can do, with a healthy skepticism, is consciously resolve to be alert. "You were dead but now live; you were blind but now see; you were deaf but now hear", and so on.

debate, don't judge. Try and understand, don't dismiss. That's the faith I have now.

[Palfy]

Where are you getting those figures from re China, can you provide a source?

 

Also you've said previously that we shouldn't confuse Christians with evangelical Christians in the US, is there in your opinion a "correct" form of Christianity? If so, what is that form and how did you/they arrive at that opinion?

That's a very good point why are there so many factions of the same faith claiming that there form of Christianity is better than some other forms of Christianity, yet atheist don't claim they are better atheist than the next atheist, seems to me that people who believe in God can't agree amongst them selves who is right and who is wrong, is it because people change the story to suit their own believes needs and wants. Edited June 8, 2017 by Palfy

[Cornish Steve]

That's a very good point why are there so many factions of the same faith claiming that there form of Christianity is better than some other forms of Christianity, yet atheist don't claim they are better atheist than the next atheist, seems to me that people who believe in God can't agree amongst them selves who is right and who is wrong, is it because people change the story to suit their own believes needs and wants.

 

Ultimately, it all boils down to human arrogance. We seem to be made to disagree, and that's what happens. Leaders disagree over something and each insists they are right. They may disagree over big issues or seemingly trivial issues, but they will not compromise. Sometimes the issue is about how words are translated from the original Hebrew and Greek, which is fascinating actually. Over time, this has resulted in literally hundreds of different denominations. The bottom line, though, is that the Christian faith is defined, no more and no less, by the ancient creeds - Nicene, Apostolic, etc. These, very early on, captured the essence of Christian belief. Today, we get hung up on so many peripheral things that we too often lose sight of them, which is sad. Almost all denominations do agree with the creeds; those that do not are, in most cases, referred to as cults.

[Chach]

 

The numbers re China are in the public domain.

 

Re the "correct" form of Christianity... Basically, those who commit their lives to the person and teachings of Christ. This is evident from the "fruit" of their lives: a powerful selflessness; a concern for the poor and sick and needy and outsider; a desire to turn the other cheek, demonstrate love to enemies, and strive for peace; a willingness to give up everything in pursuit of these goals. In my experience, you can add to that a bit of an effort to keep these activities out of public sight, even to the point of anonymity.

 

I'm a little biased in that I attended an evangelical church for over 20 years and left because of its increasingly extreme social stances and worrying intolerance; maybe I'm reacting against that. Nonetheless, when I line up what evangelical leaders in the US claim are Christian opinions, I see little correlation with the teachings of Christ - and hence my earlier comment.

 

Let me emphasize, though: the Christian faith is not about beliefs or actions; it's primarily a relationship with a person. That causes jaws to drop and a level of incredulity in many observers, but so be it. Looking back on my life, I can point to many times when a person has specifically guided or intervened, with a presence that is undeniable. This lies at the very core: Actions are a result of that relationship, not a philosophy of life, per se.

 

Again, apologies for taking this thread off track. I should listen to my own advice in steering clear of public discussions like this!

 

The numbers you quoted don't match what is in the public domain though, from what I have read its less than 3% of the population and about 30 mill so way less than you claimed and not statistically significant enough really demonstrate anything, a survey of Anglican priests found that 2% were Atheists and up to 16% were agnostic. That's fairly significant.

What if you had been Chinese or Indian Steve, do you think you'd still be Christian? If so is it predetermined, does god have a western bias?

 

 

common mistake, not all christians are conservatives. they're just the loudest and most obnoxious (the evangelical religious right), on the contrary you'll find many liberals of all faiths who embrace most faiths, like i do. also if you have ever read the jewish law you'll see many "socialist" policies such as the law of reaping and the year of jubilee. that's why i laugh when i see evangelical right wingers saying only "real christians" are conservatives. so no i don't have a foot in that camp, although my parents are firmly in that camp, so i agree to disagree when talking politics and religon and enjoy learning what they believe and why.

 

agreeing to disagree is a basic tenant of many peace deals so yes, i'd say it works rather well.

 

The basis of those peace deals is compromise which might be in the same vicinity but is not really the same thing IMO.

I think you misunderstood my post, I wasn't implying that all liberals are agnostic about the existence of god but rather that they typically encourage debate in the battle of ideas in order to make the ideas better. You seem to have wanted to close this discussion down, like you were uncomfortable discussing it which is not the way I have typically seen you post.

 

Again... why does the proposed existence of God annoy many atheists?

 

We have proved that war and murder exists largely outside of religion... atheists aren't being made to sit on the back of a bus or not allowed to sit in certain restaurants... what's the problem?

 

It's a personal choice and one that no one needs to justify or be questioned on.

 

Come now Haf, 99% of the "annoyance" stems from the misuse/cherry picking of science to make very flimsy non points not the proposed existence of god

 

It is a personal choice, of course it is, but it should be questioned just like any idea so the ideas can be improved and the bad ideas left behind or we would still be burning witches at the stake.

 

 

 

Ultimately, it all boils down to human arrogance. We seem to be made to disagree, and that's what happens. Leaders disagree over something and each insists they are right. They may disagree over big issues or seemingly trivial issues, but they will not compromise. Sometimes the issue is about how words are translated from the original Hebrew and Greek, which is fascinating actually. Over time, this has resulted in literally hundreds of different denominations. The bottom line, though, is that the Christian faith is defined, no more and no less, by the ancient creeds - Nicene, Apostolic, etc. These, very early on, captured the essence of Christian belief. Today, we get hung up on so many peripheral things that we too often lose sight of them, which is sad. Almost all denominations do agree with the creeds; those that do not are, in most cases, referred to as cults.

 

Out of interest, what is your churches/your position on non-Christians. What happens to them in the afterlife?

[Paddock]

Again... why does the proposed existence of God annoy many atheists?

 

We have proved that war and murder exists largely outside of religion... atheists aren't being made to sit on the back of a bus or not allowed to sit in certain restaurants... what's the problem?

 

It's a personal choice and one that no one needs to justify or be questioned on.

I'm not arsed what people believe in and I'm an atheist. What I do take offence to is people trying to ram religion down my thoat- preaching at me in the street, knocking on my door, trying to frighten people into believing their ideals and such.

 

I don't go around trying to force people not to believe in it- Inthink it's all fairytales personally but I'm fine with others thinking different.

[Lowensda]

I'm not arsed what people believe in and I'm an atheist. What I do take offence to is people trying to ram religion down my thoat- preaching at me in the street, knocking on my door, trying to frighten people into believing their ideals and such.

 

I don't go around trying to force people not to believe in it- Inthink it's all fairytales personally but I'm fine with others thinking different.

 

I'm with you Pad. Happy for people to have beliefs, faith and use religion as a means to live their life. Everyone's entitled to do and believe in what ever they want to.

 

I personally don't like being told that i'm going to burn in hell (whichever one of the 100's of versions of hell they're referring to) because I don't agree with their notion of gods and demons. If I want to follow a particular belief, then let me do so in my own time.

 

I'm also in the process of watching The Keepers on Netflix, isn't the best advert for some followers of catholicism.

[EFC-Paul]

I'm also in the process of watching The Keepers on Netflix, isn't the best advert for some followers of catholicism.

Any good? I nearly put it on the other day but decided to get back into Elementary (end of season two)

[Lowensda]

Any good? I nearly put it on the other day but decided to get back into Elementary (end of season two)

 

Yes. Very interesting, if not very raw. Goes deep into murder, sexual abuse, pheadophile rings and community cover ups. We're only 2 episodes in!

[markjazzbassist]

The basis of those peace deals is compromise which might be in the same vicinity but is not really the same thing IMO.

I think you misunderstood my post, I wasn't implying that all liberals are agnostic about the existence of god but rather that they typically encourage debate in the battle of ideas in order to make the ideas better. You seem to have wanted to close this discussion down, like you were uncomfortable discussing it which is not the way I have typically seen you post.

Ah I see what you mean now. And yes I'm closed about the issue because I think it's a very personal belief whether people have a faith or not. I grew up very "ram down your throat" everyone has to be a Christian. I hated it. I got away from that and discovered people that read the texts the way I did and were more liberal and figurative in it all and more importantly not combatant about it. More interested in the "love your neighbor" and less in finding one off strange verses that fit our agenda.

 

So when I meet people of any faith or atheist who try and "ram it down my throat" I'm averse (even to christians). Whereas if we respect each other and then have a theology/science discourse I'm fine, but I just can't stand people trying to prove "their way is the right way".

 

I hope that makes sense.

[Cornish Steve]

Labour did especially well in London and Manchester. Is this in any way linked to the recent attacks?