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Keeping It Real!


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#1 rowlo-efc

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Posted 22 Feb 2007 - 14:02

last night was poor. We had a poor side and the bench was almost laughable - but it was the best we had and unfortunately it was not good enough.

If people dare to go to toffeeweb.com's mailbag they will see nothing but doom and gloom, moaning and groaning - but was it all that bad.

Terrible tactician? Hardly - 4-4-2 we were going nowhere. 4-5-1 and for the majority of the 2nd period we dominated. but we didn't have the attack. My only gripe is that the subs were awful decisions - naysmith, hibbert...

But...to reinvent Moyes ambition for our club, here are some interesting facts to help keep it all real!:

1996/97 season.

We finished 15th with 42 points. 39 points seen two teams get relegated - one of which was Boro, who had had 3pts deducted for failing to fulfill a fixture.
Joe Royle had resigned and Dave Watson was stand in Manager.
Peter Johnson had begun to destroy the club from the inside.

Had we lost one more game that season, had Boro not been treated so strictly by the FA, then we perhaps would have been playing in the championship. (or Div 1 as it was then).

2006/2007 This season in comparison.

We have spent on players. (8m AJ, 5m Lescott ?m for Howard)

We are lying in 8th position. We havenít had relegation fears for a few seasons and Moyes has had some, not much but some, money to spend each Summer.

Its hardly a backwards step is it?

Its worse, for me personally, to see seats empty because people can't be bothered or 'dont have the time' to attend the team that they are supposed to love...the people's club just aint got the people. Sad, we should be ashamed of ourselves.
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#2 Robo

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Posted 22 Feb 2007 - 18:10

I agree we have come along way so we need to stick with davey moyes and get behid the team!!!!!!!
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#3 Bluetrip

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Posted 22 Feb 2007 - 22:02

People become blasse about how far we have come thinking a new manager would take us into the next level. Moyes hasn't spent money compared to the rest of the top teams and outside of our first eleven our squad is average at best. If he was to go I think we might see a similar return to the relegation zone Leceister lost Martin O'neil or Curbishley more recently at Charlton.
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#4 Droobie

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Posted 22 Feb 2007 - 22:24

True true... we're far from rock bottom, just having a roller-coaster of a ride at the moment, and no momentum for a string of good results. Sure DM made some dodgy subs... Why he brought on Naysmith, I can only attribute to an injury - mebbe Victor felt a hamstring or had the runs... and Naysmith would have been the 'fittest' with experience on the bench. (Mebbe 'cos he's a scot... I dunno)

The Hibbert sub, I can sort of understand it... Fernandes (who hasn't had many games this season so isn't at peak) is showing signs of tiredness, so 85mins in, who does he put on? Hibbert was the most experienced (besides Teflon) on the bench, and it's more probable to save a point with another defender, than try and 'risk' a win with Vaughn.

On another day, with a different result, we might have been praising DM for saving the draw. I don't think he's lacking in ambition, just doesn't have the confidence in the squad depth to want to 'risk' going for the win.
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#5 Londonblue

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 07:30

Its patently obvious that David Moyes cannot take us any further. This has nothing to do with investment blah blah... he is not getting the best out of the players he has available to him. He thinks defensively. Fair enough that was fine 4-5 years ago when we were in real shit and I thank him for getting out of that terrible situation. But he was only doing his job, getting paid £500 a year, so I'm not too grateful!

The football we play is dire to watch. Moyes has perfected the art of nicking a one nil win with hoof ball. The odd 3-0 derby win is not going to change that reality I'm afraid. Look what Tony Mowbray is now doing at West Brom, they are playing good football in which the ball is passed quickly on the ground. The sad fact is we've forgotton what its like to watch good football and we comfort ourselves with the fact that at least we're not in a relegation fight now. How long are we going to depend on that fact for defending the indefensible.
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#6 StevO

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 08:53

Its patently obvious that David Moyes cannot take us any further. This has nothing to do with investment blah blah... he is not getting the best out of the players he has available to him. He thinks defensively. Fair enough that was fine 4-5 years ago when we were in real shit and I thank him for getting out of that terrible situation. But he was only doing his job, getting paid £500 a year, so I'm not too grateful!

The football we play is dire to watch. Moyes has perfected the art of nicking a one nil win with hoof ball. The odd 3-0 derby win is not going to change that reality I'm afraid. Look what Tony Mowbray is now doing at West Brom, they are playing good football in which the ball is passed quickly on the ground. The sad fact is we've forgotton what its like to watch good football and we comfort ourselves with the fact that at least we're not in a relegation fight now. How long are we going to depend on that fact for defending the indefensible.


indefensible? get real mate!

and you recon west brom will play attractive football when they get in to the prem again, i doubt it. reading are managing it, but they have a lot of prem quality players (which brom dont have)

so until we play like arsenal (or west brom) then i guess all the doom and gloomers will want rid of moyes, but the same question needs to be asked (london blue, id like you to answer this one as well) who do you want to replace moyes with?
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#7 Sickboy

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 09:06

Yes our football isint easy on the eye, but id rather play tight football & not worry about relegation than be pretty & go down.
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#8 Londonblue

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 09:31

indefensible? get real mate!

and you recon west brom will play attractive football when they get in to the prem again, i doubt it. reading are managing it, but they have a lot of prem quality players (which brom dont have)

so until we play like arsenal (or west brom) then i guess all the doom and gloomers will want rid of moyes, but the same question needs to be asked (london blue, id like you to answer this one as well) who do you want to replace moyes with?


The point I was making about West Brom is how Mowbray has come in and turned them around and made them attractive to watch, that's all.
I'm not a doom monger, I'm just sick of watching crap football, (wherever we are in the table). Taking a few risks and being more attack minded, trying to play the ball on the ground instead of hoofing it up to a player who has no-one to knock it down to is not going to get us relegated if you fill your players with confidence that they can do it. Moyes has drummed into them not to take risks and they don't because they are shit scared of the consequences from him. You asked me for a name how about Mark Hughes! In fact how about anyone else.
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#9 StevO

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 09:34

would you like to watch nice football, fast movement and slick passing in the championship?
we dont have enough good quality players to always play attractive, most of our team are just hard workers, arteta osman cahill, thats about the end of our squad capable of it. can you see neville carsley BT hibbert playing nice stuff?

fair choice with mark hughes, now tell me, how do you convince him to leave blackburn for us?
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#10 Bill

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 09:42

Mark Hughes..!! whats he done,? and is he really any better than what we've got. :mellow:
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#11 Dunny the Blue

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 11:20

Just an idea but Billy Davies? I mean he's turned Derby around.
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#12 StevO

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 11:42

is that a step in a better direction? whats billy davies really done? only about the same as moyes when we took him on.
if people want new stylish football then would a foreign coach not be better?

regardless who we get most people will complain, no matter what everton do its always wrong with the majority of fans anyway
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#13 Zed

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 14:02

The fisrt sub was fine, could understand it. Whatever reason it was for, nays fitted in well as an attacking left mid as lescot was getting raped by lennon

I think the real problem lies in bringing on a right back for a midfielder (even though Neville can easily go into midfield) and having a fast young hungry striker on the bench wanting to prove himself. Instantly we were on the defensive, tottenham new this, the crowd new this but moyes didnt
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#14 Bluetrip

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 14:12

Except when we win of course - then everything's rosy. I do want Kenwright out though. To think of his blind optimism with a cheesy smile in every interview backed only with cash that is siphoned in through selling players and TV money. Turning away investors for no reason other than living out his boyhood fantasy makes me want to punch his face in.
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#15 Zed

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 14:19

Except when we win of course - then everything's rosy. I do want Kenwright out though. To think of his blind optimism with a cheesy smile in every interview backed only with cash that is siphoned in through selling players and TV money. Turning away investors for no reason other than living out his boyhood fantasy makes me want to punch his face in.



The problem with your statement and most peoples view is that they are rarely based on fact. We recently introduced a new investor to Everton, namely Robert Earl (remember, it wasnt that long ago). When you say "Turning away investors for no reason" who exactly do you mean???????????

KEEP IT REAL
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#16 Ian

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 14:29

is that a step in a better direction? whats billy davies really done? only about the same as moyes when we took him on.
if people want new stylish football then would a foreign coach not be better?

regardless who we get most people will complain, no matter what everton do its always wrong with the majority of fans anyway


I think thats unfair steve, i think we have every right to be a bit pissed off at the minute, as Zed said first sub was understandable, we needed to double up on Lennon, that worked well.

But when the whole ground can see we where lacking in pace and we had the in abundance in the shape of James Vaughn why cant moyes?

Bringing a RIGHT BACK on was a joke, some people on here may be happy to settle for that but if they are they should support fuckin watford.

SITTING BACK ON A 1-1 AT HOME IS EMBARRASSING

And when they go the goal he then decides to do what the fans knew he should have done 10 minutes earlier.

Its not good enough
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#17 Bluetrip

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 14:35

The problem with your statement and most peoples view is that they are rarely based on fact. We recently introduced a new investor to Everton, namely Robert Earl (remember, it wasnt that long ago). When you say "Turning away investors for no reason" who exactly do you mean???????????

KEEP IT REAL

Let's get one thing straight Robert Earl is Kenrights showbiz mate - not the saviour of EFC. He was brought in by Bill mainly to help him fuck Gregg out of the picture and has gone on record saying Earl will be making no decisions in the running of the club. How much money is Robert Earl actually going to invest? As it was given to the press, he won't be putting cash into the club.
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#18 MikeO

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 14:36

I agree with Zed. BK has shortcomings no doubt but I don't believe for a moment he's..

Turning away investors for no reason other than living out his boyhood fantasy

He's a businessman and an Evertonian, wouldn't like to say in what order but the constant rumours about "Not returning phone calls" are IMO bollocks. As I've said before if someone was seriously interested in buying out/investing in the club it would take more than a few unreturned calls to put them off.

So imagine you win £300m on the eurolottery and want to buy Everton for £250m....you phone and explain and ask to speak to Bill. They tell you he's out of the office and will get back to you, but he doesn't for a couple of days. What do you do, go out and blow it on a fucking great ocean going yacht, a customised Lear Jet and a small republic in the Seychelles or do you push and push, bang on doors and go public? I know what I'd do.

Edited by MikeO, 23 Feb 2007 - 14:37.

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#19 Bluetrip

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 15:16

I agree with Zed. BK has shortcomings no doubt but I don't believe for a moment he's..

Turning away investors for no reason other than living out his boyhood fantasy

He's a businessman and an Evertonian, wouldn't like to say in what order but the constant rumours about "Not returning phone calls" are IMO bollocks. As I've said before if someone was seriously interested in buying out/investing in the club it would take more than a few unreturned calls to put them off.

So imagine you win £300m on the eurolottery and want to buy Everton for £250m....you phone and explain and ask to speak to Bill. They tell you he's out of the office and will get back to you, but he doesn't for a couple of days. What do you do, go out and blow it on a fucking great ocean going yacht, a customised Lear Jet and a small republic in the Seychelles or do you push and push, bang on doors and go public? I know what I'd do.

Giving the impression your club is not for sale under any circumstances would put off businessmen (not everton fans...) when there are other teams to invest in yes. Man City, Spurs, Charlton, West Ham, Fulham, Bolton, Villa, Wigan, Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle all now have chairmen who have outspent us or will invest heavily in their squads this summer.

Edited by Bluetrip, 23 Feb 2007 - 15:17.

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#20 MikeO

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 15:23

Giving the impression your club is not for sale under any circumstances would put off businessmen


No it wouldn't (although I don't agree for a minute that he gives that impression anyway). "Hostile" takeovers are commonplace in business. You're still living in "BK is Satan" popular myth dreamland, not reality (in my opinion).
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#21 StevO

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 15:25

Ian - i dont mean just on wednesday, i mean all the time. people even complained when we signed howard.
it seems there is always people moaning regardless of how we are doing, we beat liverpool 3-0 and people complained that they played better, we win a game but people moan because we didnt play attractive football.

i dont know if thats just evertonians or all football fans, because ive never supported anyone else.
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#22 Bluetrip

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 15:38

QUOTE(Bluetrip @ Feb 23 2007, 3:16 PM) *
Giving the impression your club is not for sale under any circumstances would put off businessmen

No it wouldn't (although I don't agree for a minute that he gives that impression anyway). "Hostile" takeovers are commonplace in business. You're still living in "BK is Satan" popular myth dreamland, not reality (in my opinion).

Satan wasn't mentioned and it's quite a reach from a 'man living out a boyhood fantasy'. And you cut the sentence in half I said it would put off businessmen when there are other teams to invest in. See for yourself how much Kenright has invested since he mortgaged his assets to buy the stake in the first place. You lke the idea of the club being run by a fan? Great. Today's game is run by money alone there's no room for sentiment and lving on past glories. Kenright is never going to provide the investment we need and meanwhile we see struggling lesser teams like Villa and West Ham get taken over.
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#23 john_webby

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 16:11

ok well 1st i think DM should stay 1st of all i will admit i could make the game as i was in work

but when brought naysmith on i gather we started to get back into the game

tony hibberts being brought on. can any one tell me did we change formation at all from the one that had seen us come back into the game or did DM just replace a player with lack of match fitness

i am not saying that vaughan should not have been brought on but seeing as though we were getting battered playing 4 4 2 what would have been the point in reverting back to it if it didnt work?

as for BK i am not blaming him but he doesnt have the financial backing to move the club forward and if he is an evertonian 1st should be proactively looking for investment but that we will never know

going back to DM his hands have been tied we do have the smallest squad in the prem we are going to get injuries and suspensions towards the end of the season but instead of turning round in the middle of a game and booing your own manager because of a decision i would loved to have seen hibbo bang one in to prove everyone wrong but it he didnt but what would have been the reaction if he would have brought vaughan on and we got beat he would have got slated

i'm still backing him because i know its going to take time to turn this club around not just 2 or 3 seasons
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#24 MikeO

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 16:14

Not going to fall out over this :D .

"BK is Satan" was intended as ironic, plainly not a quote...

I cut short your post to simplify and for my answer to make sense grammatically, but if you prefer...

Giving the impression your club is not for sale under any circumstances would put off businessmen (not everton fans...) when there are other teams to invest in yes. Man City, Spurs, Charlton, West Ham, Fulham, Bolton, Villa, Wigan, Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle all now have chairmen who have outspent us or will invest heavily in their squads this summer.


I stand by...
No it wouldn't (although I don't agree for a minute that he gives that impression anyway). "Hostile" takeovers are commonplace in business.

Like I said, my opinion.
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#25 Bluetrip

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Posted 23 Feb 2007 - 16:31

Not going to fall out over this :D .

"BK is Satan" was intended as ironic, plainly not a quote...

I cut short your post to simplify and for my answer to make sense grammatically, but if you prefer...
I stand by...
No it wouldn't (although I don't agree for a minute that he gives that impression anyway). "Hostile" takeovers are commonplace in business.

Like I said, my opinion.


It was an exaggeration of my post far from what I'd said. Hardly jumping on a bandwagon or paddling a myth to state it's a fact Kenright has no money or that you need it to stay in the top 6. You seem to be saying if a millionaire wants a club they will get it whether the major shareholder wants it or not. You must have a very short memory if you can't recall the amount of times investors tried to buy Villa but couldn't budge Ellis before the heart attack or Terrence brown at West Ham over the years.
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#26 Londonblue

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Posted 24 Feb 2007 - 07:17

Ian - i dont mean just on wednesday, i mean all the time. people even complained when we signed howard.
it seems there is always people moaning regardless of how we are doing, we beat liverpool 3-0 and people complained that they played better, we win a game but people moan because we didnt play attractive football.

i dont know if thats just evertonians or all football fans, because ive never supported anyone else.


Ian I've never supported anyone else either. I like watching good football though. Everton being safe from relegation is very important but too many people accept that as enough. I don't. The question is as far as I can see it:-

Is Moyes getting the best out of the players he has at his disposal under the financial restrictions he faces?
I used to think he was or at least he needed time but now I've lost all confidence in him. I seriously think the current squad would be better under someone else. I'm starting to think that Moyes is very defensively minded all the time, he doesn't seem able to adapt tactics to changing situations on the pitch or get the best out of the players he has. His strength is that he is generally good at keeping a lead if we go 1-0. But look at our attacking threat, it consists of long throws into the box from Neville, free kicks and the odd good cross. Our one strength going forward is the link up play between Johnson and Cahill, but teams are wise to that now. When was the last time we watched Everton score from a flowing move from defence? Our goals are usually opportunist and come from broken play or opposition mistakes. None of the players, Arteta apart, are comfortable on the ball, they want to get rid as soon as they receive a pass. Usually the ball is knocked short down the channels. Where are the defence splitting passes on the ground Johnson should be getting? Where is the threat of coming forward at pace down the wings? This is all about coaching and confidence building instead of Moyes permanent safety first approach.
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#27 Steve L

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Posted 24 Feb 2007 - 10:23

i would loved to have seen hibbo bang one in to prove everyone wrong but it he didnt but what would have been the reaction if he would have brought vaughan on and we got beat he would have got slated


Not wanting to piss on anyone's birthday cake here, but Hibbo will never bang one in and he DID bring Vaughan on, and we DID get beat! :unsure:
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#28 Bill

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Posted 24 Feb 2007 - 10:31

Spurs goal 89th min..............Vaughan on 90th min. a fookin joke. ;)
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#29 john_webby

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Posted 24 Feb 2007 - 13:04

i know he brought vaugan on but if he would have brought vaugan on then he would have got slated for being to attacking DM was and is still in a catch 22
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#30 Zed

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Posted 24 Feb 2007 - 13:39

i know he brought vaugan on but if he would have brought vaugan on then he would have got slated for being to attacking DM was and is still in a catch 22


I dont think so john (i know some would) most would have admired his balls really

In the paper today, Myes said the boo boys dont help the team

"THEY ARE BOOING YOU NOT THE PLAYERS"
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#31 MikeO

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Posted 24 Feb 2007 - 13:53

I dont think so john (i know some would) most would have admired his balls really


Absolutely, much rather lose a game we're trying to win than lose a game trying to avoid defeat. The sad thing for me is that it feels like we completely chucked away the performance at WHL. We'd probably have taken three points out of six from the Spurs games at the start of the season, but having played so well to win away it's a big wasted oportunity I think.
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#32 Zed

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Posted 24 Feb 2007 - 14:01

Liek the Chelsea game, i was bitterly diappointed, but proud of the team because of the effort each one of them put in

Why cant they get up for most games like that???
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#33 TrueBlue

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Posted 24 Feb 2007 - 14:01

On SPN they were talking about it then saying everyone was bang out of order for booing moyes. Kept saying how much of a great job hes done.

On a different not though Paul Merson was saying what a top club we are and that he would have been happy to play at Everton cos of the supporters and just kept complimenting the club and fans :D
Was a bit cringeworthy though :unsure:

Matt Le Tissier was also saying how happy Beattie is at the club and in the area and he feels he just needs a few goals as hes a confidence player. Tbh no matter how much I try not to like BT I just can't.

Edited by TrueBlue, 24 Feb 2007 - 14:04.

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#34 xsaint

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Posted 24 Feb 2007 - 15:39

People become blasse about how far we have come thinking a new manager would take us into the next level. Moyes hasn't spent money compared to the rest of the top teams and outside of our first eleven our squad is average at best. If he was to go I think we might see a similar return to the relegation zone Leceister lost Martin O'neil or Curbishley more recently at Charlton.



As for the spending, here is the fact from team talk
"David Moyes has spent just £50million in five years and recouped £36million"
Source: http://www.teamtalk....1939591,00.html

If that is true, we have spent peanuts (14M in 5 years) compared to other team and yet we are sniffing Europe.That is indeed progress from managerial point of view i would say....
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