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Whats Next For Everton


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#1 rowlo-efc

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Posted 06 Mar 2007 - 12:07

Its Moyes 5th Anniversary of taking the reins at Goodison and I reflect on the last years and remember a plan that was set up by the Red head and ask whether or not it has been achieved and where it can all go from here.
Many fans have been calling for Moyes' head after recent displays of 'negative' football that have seen the team end up sixth in a tight top half of the league. I have to be subjective and do my best to put things into perspective. what of Before Moyes and what of the situation after him. What has he achieved.

There is no doubt now that every Evertonian up and down the land and indeed all over the globe looks for a top half finish and the worry of relegation is all but diminished by the mid-table mediocrity that we now face. However, you only have to look back to the Smith and Walker days to realise that the clubs current status is a fair distance from where it was only 6 seasons ago. Moyes came to us and gave a passionate speech about us being the 'people's club'. He recognised that the club was losing its passion and its drive for better things and decided to concentrate on the way forward rather than survival - he left that to the fans and financially, he left it to the board.
I believe that the following article from the Telegraph sums up a few things that People often over look about Mr Moyes and his efforts at our beloved club.

'In his first game among his 'people', Everton scored within 30 seconds to trigger a victory sealed by Duncan Ferguson. If anyone who left Goodison Park that March afternoon was to be told that Moyes would render Everton effectively relegation proof, qualify them for the Champions League and finish above Liverpool for the first time since Derek Hatton ran the city, they would have thought the blue Shankly was among them. Moyes celebrates his fifth anniversary on Merseyside, placing him behind only Harry Catterick and Howard Kendall among Everton's modern managers.
And yet his last appearance at Goodison saw the man they called "The Moyesiah" denied more than three times by his own supporters, who aimed match programmes in his general direction. The fact that this same evening, the one which saw Everton howled off at home to Tottenham, witnessed Liverpool's astonishing comeback in the Nou Camp is perhaps not a coincidence but it signified something wider.

For those on the Gwladys Street who believe that Moyes' time is up it is pointless arguing that this is astonishing ingratitude. "You don't go to Goodison every week," they will argue. "The football's boring, the chairman has produced no investment. The club is drifting." You cannot lecture people on gratitude when they pay 30 they can ill afford and your view from the press box is free.

It has been too often Moyes' misfortune to be overshadowed by events at Anfield at precisely the wrong moments. In 2005, when he took Everton above Liverpool and qualified for the Champions League, Rafael Benitez responded by winning the European Cup in arguably the greatest final that competition had seen. It was a competition Everton then failed to qualify for and, as a triumph, it proved horribly short lived.

In all other respects, Moyes has admirably fulfilled what George Graham described as a manager's brief. Your first task, he once said, is usually to salvage a club, which because it's easy to identify what has gone wrong, is actually relatively simple, although Alan Curbishley may beg to differ. Then, you turn them into a mid-table side (harder) and then a top-six club (very difficult). Despite accusations that he finds it hard to make up his mind about a player, Johnson, Cahill, Arteta, Lescott, Neville and Howard are a fine core to any squad. There have been victories over Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United; there are two manager-of-the-year trophies to go home to.
And yet something is missing, perhaps the same kind of something that made Kevin Keegan submit his resignation from Manchester City two years ago this month; the realisation that the scenery was not going to change, that he had taken the club as far as he was likely to. It happened to Curbishley at Charlton and his chairman, Bill Kenwright, must wonder if it will happen to Moyes. If Everton want a few more anniversaries, they need to back their manager with money and vision.
A few years ago they had the vision but not the money. Had the club found 30 million in 2002, they would probably be building Goodison on the Water now, a vast, beautiful arena on the King's Dock that would have slotted into one of the most famous waterfronts in the world.
Thirty million was their share of the investment on a vision which would have given Everton something it has seldom possessed; genuine glamour. But in 2002, Everton were a struggling bottom-third club whose relegation was likely sooner rather than later. Had Moyes arrived two years before, 30million might not have seemed such a towering sum. The problem with Moyes is not that he has stayed too long but that he came too late.'

So the upshot is simply this. We are relishing the mid table scrap for Europe and we are developing a decent team - from the ground up when you consider what Moyes was left with (If I remember correctly, the last team that smith played had Linderoth, Gascoigne, Unsworth in - the first team Moyes played didn't!).

We need money and we need it fast - 10-15-20m every pre-season is not enough to give us the nudge we need to ensure that we are consistently better than Bolton, Blackburn etc. 20m buys you one superstar (who often cannot change a team) or 3-4 decent players. Decent players keep you 'relegation proof' but they don't win you leagues and cups on a regular basis. We need investment.
For those that dislike Moyes - I can't do anything about that - for those sitting on the fence, aim your concern more at the money men as that is where our next progression lies.
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#2 GoldfishMemory

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Posted 06 Mar 2007 - 13:03

Too true mate but I believe you omit one simple fact which grows amongst many people I know from your analysis. The simple fact that given money moyes would still dither over substitutions and would still be lacking the tactical knowhow to kill a game weather that be with goals or a decent defenceive display.

I am a fan of Moyes and I believe he has done an excellent job, my issue with him is the team we have (not necissarily the players) but the "team" can do better than they are.

One perfect example for me is we play 1 up front and score 1 or 2 then we sit on it but not as 2 banks of 4 with AJ & Cahill ready to break but as 11 men in the penalty area which it like suicide. Why dont we make teams break down our midfield before breaking down our defence to score an equaliser? we just bunch together and hope the ball doesnt find its way through. On the other hand when we are on top of a game and the tide slowly starts to turn isnt that the time to bring on fresh legs up front and possibly midfield and kill the game while the opposition try to get their tired legs going?

My issues with moyes are not that he has done badly but that he doesn't seem to have the vision that 35,000 fans see with such clarity 10 minutes before it hits him!
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#3 rowlo-efc

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Posted 06 Mar 2007 - 15:05

I take your point. Moyes is not very good on the day. Can't really argue with that. He seems to take ages to make up his mind and sometimes (not that often) it can be costly. Sometimes he makes the wrong decisions but then so does every manager.
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#4 RuffRob

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Posted 06 Mar 2007 - 15:13

I have done some rough sums on the transfers since Moyes has been at the club. I have tried to be realistic and not over optomistic on money paid out and brought in for player.

In Moyes's transfer dealings he has spent around 54M on player (this includes 3M of Tim Howard) and the club have sold about 47M worth of players.

So a net spent in the order of 7M or an average of 1.4M per year for the 5 years at the club. Even if you round it up to a net spend of 2M a year - that very very good going.

Especially when the squad (bar Rooney) is now considerabley better quality than it has been for a long long time. Our squad is better quality all round, keep more clean sheets, scores more goals, is hard working , and is young. The players we have are not paid stupid money and all indicate as far as I am aware that they want to put the Everton shirt on their backs.

Yes, he had the Rooney money to spend, but he lost one of the Prems best players in getting it, and plenty of other clubs have seen players go for big money - and not ended up really improving their squads with the money.

Moyes's net expenditure fades to insignificants when you look at Newcastle, Spurs, Middlesbrough, Villa, Blackburn, West Ham, Man City, Portsmouths and your Birminghams. Not to even mention the 'top 4'.

In 5 years Moyes has been voted for two Premiership managers of the season awards by his piers, when these are usually only dished out the the manager of the team that win the league.

The club has been a bit up and down in the last 5 years, but at no time have I ever had the relegation fears I had become acustom to.

In my opinion Moyes is very good manager, who has had to work with a very tight net budget. Given the players we now have and the football we play are now a club who are genuine contenders for a top 6 finish each season.

So we have gone from season in, season out, very real relegation candidates to very real top 6 candidates on a net expenditure in the order of 2M a year.

We now have a solid - steady squad. What is encouraging to me, is last summer Moyes brought in early 3 players he really wanted. In the past he had missed out on afew player becasue he wanted maximum value. At the moment there is no need for Everton to panic buy.

The three player brought in (Howard, Lescott and AJ) have all been excellent buys. More of the same next summer please!!!
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#5 thebluenose

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Posted 06 Mar 2007 - 15:59

thing is though with moyes. he either has brilliant signings (arteta, cahill, howard, lescott, AJ) or he gets really terrible buys (kroldrup, davies, BT VDM).
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#6 rowlo-efc

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Posted 06 Mar 2007 - 16:42

thing is though with moyes. he either has brilliant signings (arteta, cahill, howard, lescott, AJ) or he gets really terrible buys (kroldrup, davies, BT VDM).

I agree that he has signed some rotten eggs. But he more than makes up for it with the better players he signs. My only reserve is whether or not he has the capability to keep them (i.e. Arteta)
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#7 RuffRob

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Posted 06 Mar 2007 - 17:23

All managers make good and bad signings - Sometimes players just don't fit. This is also compounded when you don't have the budgets to go out and buy the very best. And sometimes buying the best doesn't work either.

If Moyes is not a good manager becasue some of his signings don't work out - then show me that extensive list of managers who as never bought duff players. If every player Moyes bought had of worked out - then if would probably make him the best manager in the world ....ever!!!! Lets get real.

The squad of player we now have is a country mile better than what was at the club 5 years ago, and a whole lot younger and something to build on. For roughly the cost of a affordable 2M a year.

What gets me mad is when I hear lots of critisisum of Moyes, when the fans of a host of other clubs would give anything to have our squad manager and be in our position.

I remember the doom and gloom around Everton before the day of Moyes. That really was proper doom and gloom fighting relegation to the very last nail bitting day of the season, Pulling a face because we sometimes don't attack enough really shows what short memories a lot of us have.

Moyes hasn't taken the club to finacial ruin or got a team of money grabbing has beens near the end of the career to have Everton currently sitting in 6th place in the table.

Does anybody disagree that we don't have a decent young squad to build on?

Does anybody really think that we should be further on given the resources afforded to Moyes?

Should we be challenging likes Cheslea, Man U or Liverpool or playing beautiful football like Arseanl?

Answers on a postcard on how best to acheive this spending by an average of 2M a seaons - I don't even think Wenger, Ferguson or Mourino would answer this one.
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#8 GoldfishMemory

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Posted 06 Mar 2007 - 17:27

Rob surly your maths is bias considering the sale of Rooney that was a lucky stroke for moyes and without the Rooney money the situation would look massivly different!
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#9 RuffRob

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Posted 07 Mar 2007 - 13:20

Rob surly your maths is bias considering the sale of Rooney that was a lucky stroke for moyes and without the Rooney money the situation would look massivly different!


Yes it does include the Rooney sale - thats becasue he was sold!!

But as I mentioned for that 28M gained, he had to loose the talents of one of the best young player in the world. Not easily replaced.

Smith did the same with Jeffers and Ball - and that money didn't end up improvng the team.

Blackburn had very good money for Duff and Dunn, Man City had good money for SWP, West Ham sold Lampard, Cole, Ferdinand and Defoe, Totenham with Carrick, Liverpool with Fowler and Owen are a few examples of other teams have had a bit of good luck and hence money.

Other teams don't have to sell the world class home grown players- How would Liverpool fair without Gerrard or Carraghar, Chelsea without John Terry, or Man U without Giggs and Scholes.

It evens itself out to a degree- some clubs have to sell and make the most of the money brought in and some clubs are able to keep all decent players.

So why shouldn't money brought in by selling our best player be included in net transfer figures.

If you think that the 28M shouldn't be included - than you should also factor the quality of the present squad to include one Wayne Rooney.

Even if you didn't include a penny from the Rooney sale then the current squad cost net about 37.5M (this includeds flops an all). Average net spend of 7.5m a year.

Lescott (7M), AJ (10M), Arteta (7M) and Cahill (5M) are worth more than that alone (39M) and those estimate prices are not over the top either.

So Neville (3M), Howard (3M), Yobo (6M), Beattie (4M), McFadden (2M) and VDM (1M) can be cosidered profit (19M).

Total worth of players bought and still at the club - 58M against a cost of spend of 37.5M. There are not many squads in the Premiership worth at least 50% more than money paid for them.

This doesn't include a single penny of the Wayne Rooney money - You include that and our 58M worth of bought players have a real cost of 10M.

Any team can have a 60M squad, but for a lot of clubs it costs at least 60M, but in a lot of cases ends up costing a lot more.

Moyes has had his fair share of flops like all other managers - but they are all included in my figures.

I would love it if somebody is able to produce something more comprahesive - but even if my sums are 10-20% out, it still makes decent reading.

Without the Rooney figues there is a considerable difference, but Moyes transfer figures still stack up as positive, if Rooney had never exisited - But I think you give Moyes a huge disservice by not allowing them to be included.
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#10 GoldfishMemory

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Posted 07 Mar 2007 - 13:50

I wasnt saying he was bad mate what I was getting at wa that without the golden egg of Rooney Moyes transfare performance goes from 2mil spent per anum to 7.5mil (using your maths). So he has had a decent amount of cash to spend and taken us from mid table relegation dodgers to mid table Euroean failures. The improtant thing is we have broken that threshold of being a top half team which is good enough for me.

My point he hasn't done this on a shoestring he's spent a reasonable amount of cash to get us there and patting him on the back for only spending 2mil per year is nieve. Without Rooney and spending the same amount of cash you would at this point be seriously questioning the amount of debt he' got us into with limited success!

Just another viewpoint as far as the numbers game goes!

I havent done any maths myself but using your 7.5mil (witout Rooney) per season does that mean that had we not had the Rooney money we would now be in 37.5million more debt than we currently are but only have climbed from 15th to an average of say 8th with no silverware to our name? Would you be praising the man if that were the situation?

I am a fan of Moyes before you think I'm attacking him / you, I'm just addressing the fact that the Rooney cash has masked how much cash he has actually spent during his time with us.
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#11 rowlo-efc

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Posted 07 Mar 2007 - 15:21

Do you actually think that Moyes was given any of the Rooney money?
It was certainly not counted in the Deloitte revenue calculations for that season.

The first 10m (when it arrived) came during the transfer freeze between Sept-Jan 04. Then it disappeared. We borrowed for BT on the back of the second 10m installment.

Then...we managed a 15m wage packet from Sky and a further 12m for finsihing 4th.

We never got the other 10m from Rooney - it was reduced by the introduction of Neville by 3.5m.

So when you look at it a different light. If Moyes was given the Rooney money (in its entirety) and the sky money and the 4th place finish money...

then we would have had (without selling a player) 47m

Did he get this much over the space of two seasons? Did he sell any players to bulk up his transfer budget - if so, does it all marry up? Dont forget that he would have had money from the 7th place finish, the 17th finish, 4th etc.

I think that you find that it doesn't add up - why....he never got the Rooney money.
And one other thing...

We didn't get 28m for rooney. We got 2 installments (1 per season) of 10m per installment.
The other 7m (not 8m) was offered based on several conditions.
1. Manure won the FA Cup in his first season - they didn't, Arsenal beat them in the final
2. European Cup within his first contract - FAILED - he has since signed his 2nd Contract
3. He signs a 2nd contract
4. he scores a certain amount of manure career goals - not yet met.
5. he plays a certain amount of games each season for the entirety of his manure contract - not yet met.

and so on and so on....(those were just the ones I could remember)...

Lets fact it, we sold he onthe cheap because we were desparate to keep the bank manager away...

Edited by rowlo-efc, 07 Mar 2007 - 15:26.

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#12 Zed

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Posted 07 Mar 2007 - 16:10

Dont forget Zed the force is back with you :whistle:


:offtopic: FFS

Edited by GoldfishMemory, 07 Mar 2007 - 16:50.

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#13 Bluetrip

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Posted 07 Mar 2007 - 21:35

Lets fact it, we sold he onthe cheap because we were desparate to keep the bank manager away...


You are right it doesn't add up but it hasn't done that for a very long time. To say the unaccounted cash went to the bank manager is a concession less cynical than my own view on it.
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#14 GemmyGem

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Posted 07 Mar 2007 - 22:30

i cant belive that it has been 5 years
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#15 Louis

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Posted 17 Mar 2007 - 13:59

TT has been going longer though :) I remember posting about whether David Moyes would be the right man because he is unproven and is the cheap option back in 2002!
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