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#41 Blue4Ever

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Posted 18 Sep 2007 - 15:41

turning him into a midfielder? none of us know what role moyes has brought him in for.
if stubbs is fit while Yobo is away id be sure moyes will play him over jags. you dont need to play 451 for a defensive midfielder to be usefull.

Exapmle 1 - Arsenal - Gilberto - plays in a 442 - defensive midfielder - hardly seen attacking - partner Fabregas - often attacking - always a threat going forward

Example 2 - Liverpool - Sissoko - plays in a 442 - defensive midfielder - hardly seen attacking - partner Gerarrd/Alsonso - often attacking - always a threat going forward

now im not comparing the quality of our players to these, just the roles in a 442 of an attacking and defensive partnership. scholes and keane did it fantastic for years. cahill offers a different threat than fabregas/gerarrd/alonso/scholes, but still offers a threat. jags can do dog work like the others. its not all about flair, balance and team work are much more effective.

He doesnt tho, he offers less of a threat because all he gets is goals, all these other players offer " An all round game " something our midfielders dont.
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#42 carlmc25

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Posted 18 Sep 2007 - 16:01

He doesnt tho, he offers less of a threat because all he gets is goals, all these other players offer " An all round game " something our midfielders dont.


exactly, and Cahill's goals tend to dry up pretty big time in a 442 as well, 90% of his goals (at least) come in a 451. I like Cahill, but unless he can develop as a player (I know Moyes was on at him to add more to his game like Lampard) then I don't know if there is a place for him in a 442, certainly once we buy a real quality CM.
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#43 Blue4Ever

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Posted 18 Sep 2007 - 16:20

exactly, and Cahill's goals tend to dry up pretty big time in a 442 as well, 90% of his goals (at least) come in a 451. I like Cahill, but unless he can develop as a player (I know Moyes was on at him to add more to his game like Lampard) then I don't know if there is a place for him in a 442, certainly once we buy a real quality CM.

Untill we buy a quality Center midfielder, he still is a key player and we need him back soon as, at least moyes will play Cahill ahead of Cars + Neville then thats one of them out the starting 11, if Graveson turns out good id play him center midfield with Cahill and Jagielka rightback

------------------Howard--------------------

Jagielka----Yobo-------Lescott-----Baines

Arteta----Graveson----Cahill------Pienaar

------------Johnson----Yakubu-------------

Imo our best line up when everyone is fully fit, I hope moyes puts that team out in one game this season just to show how better we would be with our best midfield out.

Edited by Blue4Ever, 18 Sep 2007 - 16:24.

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#44 Romey 1878

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Posted 18 Sep 2007 - 18:25

You'd really drop the quality Hibbert? Fuck, you must really rate Jags then :P Only messing mate, it's a decent team but we'd get steamrolled down the centre with no defensive midfielder.
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#45 StevO

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Posted 18 Sep 2007 - 22:25

You'd really drop the quality Hibbert? Fuck, you must really rate Jags then :P Only messing mate, it's a decent team but we'd get steamrolled down the centre with no defensive midfielder.


thank fuck some one on here understands the need for a defensive player in the midfield!

how can grav or pienaar be considered our best players already?
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#46 carlmc25

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 10:04

thank fuck some one on here understands the need for a defensive player in the midfield!

how can grav or pienaar be considered our best players already?


yeah I agree on the DM point, Gravesen and Cahill would be too lightweight together, maybe not against some of the lesser teams who we are far superior than, but we couldnt play that team away from home against virtually any half decent team. Which is why I'd play Gravesen with a DM and leave out Cahill if Tommy still has what it takes. Cahill and a DM in a 442 lacks creativity, no one will be able to get the ball out to Arteta enough and play through balls for Vaughan/Johnson or Yak. Personally I think maybe we should go back to 451, now that Gravesen is back we'd be awesome again. Cahill can get in the box to score (as good as anyone in the country), Gravesen can stroke it around (as well as anyone) and Carsley/Jags can sweep up in front of the defence (as well as anyone), whilst Johnson looked much happier as a lone striker. Plus Arteta on the wing and what an amazing midfield that is.

Personally, unless Johnson hits form, I'd drop Johnson or Yakubu for Vaughan as well. Johnson looked excellent early last season as a lone striker, running the channels etc and leaving gaps for Cahill but his goal record has been pretty poor since the first couple of months. Vaughan looks more confident, plus much superior in the air, stronger, more direct, most likely a better finisher and from what I've seen probably as quick. Johnson's pace has been a big let down, yes he's nippy but he never really seems to get away from anyone and a combination of lack of service and poor runs means he isn't getting in on goal very often. Too many times I've seen him one on one with a defender and he hasn't even had a go at getting past him. I like Johnson, but he needs to start scoring as Vaughan will be back fairly soon and he deserves to play on last seasons form.
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#47 StevO

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 10:24

so you want ot play 4 center mids and a winger?

--------------cahill----------------
--------------grav---------arteta
------cars-----------jags---------

no balance for me with that.

arteta---cahill--jags---grav
i could maybe go for that as arteta is the only player who can do a good job on the left for us and grav can play on the right if needed.
but i dont think i could drop one of AJ, Yak or Cahill.
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#48 Romey 1878

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 10:28

yeah I agree on the DM point, Gravesen and Cahill would be too lightweight together, maybe not against some of the lesser teams who we are far superior than, but we couldnt play that team away from home against virtually any half decent team. Which is why I'd play Gravesen with a DM and leave out Cahill if Tommy still has what it takes. Cahill and a DM in a 442 lacks creativity, no one will be able to get the ball out to Arteta enough and play through balls for Vaughan/Johnson or Yak. Personally I think maybe we should go back to 451, now that Gravesen is back we'd be awesome again. Cahill can get in the box to score (as good as anyone in the country), Gravesen can stroke it around (as well as anyone) and Carsley/Jags can sweep up in front of the defence (as well as anyone), whilst Johnson looked much happier as a lone striker. Plus Arteta on the wing and what an amazing midfield that is.

Personally, unless Johnson hits form, I'd drop Johnson or Yakubu for Vaughan as well. Johnson looked excellent early last season as a lone striker, running the channels etc and leaving gaps for Cahill but his goal record has been pretty poor since the first couple of months. Vaughan looks more confident, plus much superior in the air, stronger, more direct, most likely a better finisher and from what I've seen probably as quick. Johnson's pace has been a big let down, yes he's nippy but he never really seems to get away from anyone and a combination of lack of service and poor runs means he isn't getting in on goal very often. Too many times I've seen him one on one with a defender and he hasn't even had a go at getting past him. I like Johnson, but he needs to start scoring as Vaughan will be back fairly soon and he deserves to play on last seasons form.



You want to play 451 when we've spent 20million on new strikers? And we have Vaughan as well. We'd probably hoof the ball up even more knowing Cahill is strong in the air. I think I'd die of boredom if we reverted back to that just because you want Cahill out of the midfield and just behind AJ. He already has his strike partner - Yak.
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#49 carlmc25

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 11:13

You want to play 451 when we've spent 20million on new strikers? And we have Vaughan as well. We'd probably hoof the ball up even more knowing Cahill is strong in the air. I think I'd die of boredom if we reverted back to that just because you want Cahill out of the midfield and just behind AJ. He already has his strike partner - Yak.


Firstly - StevO, I meant play either Carsley OR Jags, I didn't name the other winger in the 451 because I don't know whether I'd pick Piennar or Osman.

As for reverting back to 451, I can't see Moyes doing it - but I personally think we'd play better football now that Gravesen is back than we do in a 442. The Blackburn game was diabolical, large stretches of the Wigan match was poor, we were totally useless passing wise against Utd and for 70 mins against Bolton we couldn't string more than 2 passes together. We don't have enough quality in CM to play a 442, unless Gravesen can perform there. Cahill and Jags would be better than Nev/Carsley & Jags but it still wouldn't exactly set the pulses racing, Cahill's game is just too limited. Cahill is better in 451, Johnson is better in 451, Carsley is better in 451, Gravesen is better in 451, Arteta would get more of the ball in 451, hence I think we'd do better with a 451. But due to fan pressure Moyes will play 442, let's just hope Gravesen still has what it takes as otherwise I can't see 442 working.

edit: Just think of the team we had the season we played 451 and finished 4th, it was average at best. We now have Johnson (rather than Bent) Lescott, Howard, Baines, Yobo who is getting better and better, Arteta and Gravesen for a whole season, Vaughan & Yakubu. We've a MILES better squad and first team than we did when finishing 4th, so I don't see why people have a go at us playing 451. Yes, we'd all rather play 442 and pass and move like Arsenal, but the fact is we don't have the players in midfield to do this. With the personnel we have, we'd be AWESOME with a 451, no team would fancy playing Everton home or away with that team.

Howard

Hibbo/Nev Yobo Lescott Baines

Carsley

Osman Gravesen Cahill Arteta

Johnson/Vaughan

Edited by carlmc25, 19 Sep 2007 - 11:19.

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#50 StevO

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 11:47

our record signing doesnt start!
(i wont comment on jags being dropped for carsley/grav)
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#51 carlmc25

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 12:45

our record signing doesnt start!
(i wont comment on jags being dropped for carsley/grav)


as a defensive midfielder, I don't think there any many better in the world than protecting the back 4 than Carsley, he was immense in the season we finished 4th and was excellent in a 5 last season. In a 4 his limitations going forward are majorly exposed, but in a 5 he is superb. I have hardly seen anything of Jags and I don't see why I'd put him in ahead of Carsley on the basis of his performances so far, which have been solid, not spectacular. In fact, he was to blame for the goal that Bolton scored. Just because he is a new signing, doesn't mean he automatically is better than some of the more established players.

Yakubu wouldn't play as he's too lazy to play up front as a lone striker.

Edited by carlmc25, 19 Sep 2007 - 12:48.

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#52 StevO

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 12:55

carsley can only be short term, two years at the most. if you want to pin boltons goal on jags (which was a quality finish by the way) then im sure a few people on here can name goals caused by carsley last term, mostly due to his lost pace
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#53 carlmc25

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 13:05

carsley can only be short term, two years at the most. if you want to pin boltons goal on jags (which was a quality finish by the way) then im sure a few people on here can name goals caused by carsley last term, mostly due to his lost pace


I always thought Carsley looked pretty pacy, I remember the game he marked Gerrard out of the derby. Whenever I've seen him play he still looks quick enough to play DM in a 5. I'm not talking long term, as long term I would hope Moyes will try and bring a real class CM in who can dominate a match - but for this season I think a 451 would get us the best results, and possibly help us play better football. 442 at home or against weaker opposition, 451 against the big teams, definitely away.

Edited by carlmc25, 19 Sep 2007 - 13:08.

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#54 GoldfishMemory

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 13:15

I always thought Carsley looked pretty pacy, I remember the game he marked Gerrard out of the derby. Whenever I've seen him play he still looks quick enough to play DM in a 5. I'm not talking long term, as long term I would hope Moyes will try and bring a real class CM in who can dominate a match - but for this season I think a 451 would get us the best results, and possibly help us play better football. 442 at home or against weaker opposition, 451 against the big teams, definitely away.


90% of Evertonians have spent te past 2 years screaming out for decent centre forwards to get us away from the predictable 451 formation!

It's good for blocking out teams but not a formation I'd choose to use week in week out
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#55 Bobbyj

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 13:40

There are some opinions on here that are really out of touch:

1. Why do we want to go back to a 4-5-1. We have 3 class stikers and 2 ok prem stikers.
2. Our midfield should be a blend of creativity (arteta) good tackling and marking (Jags) and the ability to get goals (Cahill).
3. Neville is not a midfielder and should not get a look ni.
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#56 Blue4Ever

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 13:48

Eventually when we get a player who can do the Jag's job but can create aswell we can play him rightback and have a class midfielder in with Cahill or if he proves he's not up to much Graveson, I can see what u mean if Cahill is playing we do need a defensive midfielder but playing jags in midfield is just like having 5 defenders on and that means less going forward.
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#57 StevO

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 14:05

There are some opinions on here that are really out of touch:

1. Why do we want to go back to a 4-5-1. We have 3 class stikers and 2 ok prem stikers.
2. Our midfield should be a blend of creativity (arteta) good tackling and marking (Jags) and the ability to get goals (Cahill).
3. Neville is not a midfielder and should not get a look ni.


Good work on them points bob!

Eventually when we get a player who can do the Jag's job but can create aswell we can play him rightback and have a class midfielder in with Cahill or if he proves he's not up to much Graveson, I can see what u mean if Cahill is playing we do need a defensive midfielder but playing jags in midfield is just like having 5 defenders on and that means less going forward.


why is it like having 5 defenders? its not like we would otherwise be attacking with 6 players getting forward anyway, that would leave the defence too exposed. we would be attacking with 2 forwards, 2widemen and a central midfielder.
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#58 CraccerC

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 14:26

blue4ever u change ur mind every 5 minutes

did i realyl see carsley referred 2 as 1 of the best in the world at protecting back 4? LOL
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#59 carlmc25

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 15:23

Good work on them points bob!
why is it like having 5 defenders? its not like we would otherwise be attacking with 6 players getting forward anyway, that would leave the defence too exposed. we would be attacking with 2 forwards, 2widemen and a central midfielder.


the one small problem with that is none of the 6 attacking players will get much of the ball or decent service because the 5 defensive players can hardly pass the ball and the other attacking player in CM (Cahill) isn't much better. Don't you see? it's why we struggle to score goals, it's why Johnson can't buy a goal (or even look close to scoring in half the games) and why Beattie flopped etc. We don't have anyone in midfield to get the ball to Arteta on a regular basis, to get Johnson one on one with the keeper etc. In a 451 we do, as we get more of the ball in the midfield, we have more options to keep the ball in midfield, Cahill can go forward at will (rather than leaving huge gaps in the midfield like he does in 442) and we look more dangerous. If going backwards with a 451 means finishing 4th again then sign me up. Everyone goes on about 442, but they don't actually look at the strengths of our players and what system they play best in. You pick the system depending on the players you have, not the other way round. 442 MAY (and I say may) work IF Gravesen can produce in a 442, otherwise we'll just amble along, have a decentish season but not really fulfil our potential, purely because we so sorely lack the right balance in CM - the most important position on the pitch.
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#60 GoldfishMemory

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 15:34

Carl, I'm reading what youve been posting and I'v lost complete track of what your saying apart from we should be playing 451 defensive formation with one half of a 20mil strikeforce sat on the bench in favour of Lee Carsley.

Did I get it right? :huh:
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#61 carlmc25

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 15:51

Carl, I'm reading what youve been posting and I'v lost complete track of what your saying apart from we should be playing 451 defensive formation with one half of a 20mil strikeforce sat on the bench in favour of Lee Carsley.

Did I get it right? :huh:


not in every match, but yes - against decent opposition away from home, and possibly sometimes at home. :)

I think we will always score goals in a 451 (once Cahill is back) but that we will rarely concede any (as opposed to no clean sheets this season, even with 2 ball winners in midfield). Yakubu was bought as Moyes is desperate to get a team capable of playing 442, because it's what the fans want - BUT he never got that world class CM he so desperately wanted, so unless Gravesen can do the job then we still don't have the right balance. If Gravesen can do it in a 442 then I'm all for it, and I hope he can - and I think he may be able to as I really rate Gravesen, but if he can't then no one else in our squad can.
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#62 carlmc25

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 15:55

look at it this way, if we played Liverpool in the derby with:

Osman, Jags, Cahill, Arteta

in midfield, Benitez would probably be rubbing his hands with glee as he knows that Gerrard and Alonso would walk over them. If we had:

Osman, Gravesen, Carsley/Jags, Cahill, Arteta

in midfield, then he'd be thinking 'we're going to have a game on here.' It's why we've taken results off the big teams in recent years. imo anyway :)
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#63 GoldfishMemory

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 16:17

Mate we havent got the midfield for 451 anymore Carsley although he does a job has been on a downward spiral since the heady heights of 2004, Cahill didnt score many at all after his initial season and saying that sacrificing yakubu to make room for Cars is bad judgement IMO.

What are you asking for? That because we havent signed a class midfielder we should just play the same team as last season?

Remember last season when we were found out by loads of teams, we were one dimensional, predictable and most of us spent all season crying out for a left back a centre mid & a striker. We got 2 out of the three and have taken massive steps in the right direction but 451 this season will not win us as many games as did last season and last season it wasnt half as effective as the season before. You cant play one system all the time especially a defensive one there comes a point when we have to step up to the plate and start taking games to the opposition and we have reached that crossroads in our development as a team!
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#64 Blue4Ever

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 16:46

the one small problem with that is none of the 6 attacking players will get much of the ball or decent service because the 5 defensive players can hardly pass the ball and the other attacking player in CM (Cahill) isn't much better. Don't you see? it's why we struggle to score goals, it's why Johnson can't buy a goal (or even look close to scoring in half the games) and why Beattie flopped etc. We don't have anyone in midfield to get the ball to Arteta on a regular basis, to get Johnson one on one with the keeper etc. In a 451 we do, as we get more of the ball in the midfield, we have more options to keep the ball in midfield, Cahill can go forward at will (rather than leaving huge gaps in the midfield like he does in 442) and we look more dangerous. If going backwards with a 451 means finishing 4th again then sign me up. Everyone goes on about 442, but they don't actually look at the strengths of our players and what system they play best in. You pick the system depending on the players you have, not the other way round. 442 MAY (and I say may) work IF Gravesen can produce in a 442, otherwise we'll just amble along, have a decentish season but not really fulfil our potential, purely because we so sorely lack the right balance in CM - the most important position on the pitch.

Agreed, a center midfielder is a real priority.
I might get slaughtered for this but IMO we missed out on a good left winger in Koumas, he's looked very good lately but I think he's injured now.

I dont agree with my last post reading it myself, just woke up nice and refreshed :)
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#65 Romey 1878

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 20:59

Playing Carsley in a 5 man midfield, even a 4 man midfield for that matter, invites pressure on us. He has no pace so acts like a 3rd centre back, but does more damage than good. His reading of the play has capitulated completely, his timing of anything is non-existent these days. He just gets in our teams way, rather than in the oppositions way. Cheers for your hardwork Cars but you've lost it, now feck off into retirement.


451 is not the way to go. Moyes has spent £11million on Yak, he's not going to sit him on the bench for a year til we get a quality centre midfielder.
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#66 StevO

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Posted 19 Sep 2007 - 22:52

see the cavalry of sense has arrived!

but i think its time for me to give up on this thread! im baffled, and maybe even a little flabergasted!
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#67 carlmc25

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Posted 20 Sep 2007 - 08:22

see the cavalry of sense has arrived!

but i think its time for me to give up on this thread! im baffled, and maybe even a little flabergasted!


I think the problem is a lot of people see 451 as immediately negative, yet for Everton it is largely positive as we can get more of the ball. We played 442 against Blackburn who closed down the ball a lot and because of this we couldn't pass the ball, we just don't have the players to find space and pass and move. 451 was a disaster with Beattie, as he is too slow and too lazy to play 451, same reason it wouldn't work with Yakubu (or Crouch for Liverpool) - you need pace, you need energy and to run the channels to create space in the middle for Cahill. I'll leave the 451 debate here if you like, but I'll leave you with this one thought. Which of our current squad would play better in a 442/451

Howard (the same)

Baines (the same, or possibly better in 451 when DM can cover defense letting Baines bomb forward)
Yobo (same)
Lescott (same)
Neville (same or better in 451)

Osman (same or better in 451 as can get in box more and get more of the ball)
Gravesen (immense in 451 a couple of years ago, unproven at 442 for us)
Cahill (undoubtedly better in 451, no comparison)
Carsley (MILES better in 451)
Arteta (same or better in 451 as more of the ball etc)

Johnson (did better in 451 at Palace and with us last season)

Yakubu (better in 442)
Jags (unknown, same most likely)
Vaughan (unknown)
McFadden (better in 451, could play Cahill link role)


There are far more players in our team who suit a 451, it would cut down the goals we let in and help us score more. Think back to last season - after about 8/9 games both Cahill and Johnson had scored about 6 goals EACH. We've played 6 this season and Johnson is yet to score and (going from Cahill's scoring rate in a 442) CAhill would have only got 1 or 2 at the most. McFadden could play Cahill's link role, I think he could score as many as Cahill and provide a LOT more goals than Cahill.

We have the perfect players for a 451, with one more dominating midfielder we'd have the perfect team for a 442, but not yet.

On another note, they reckon Johnson is dropped tonight for McFadden - GET IN! although I think McFadden and Johnson could work, but McFadden deserves his chance of a run in the team.
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#68 CraccerC

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Posted 20 Sep 2007 - 08:48

disagree... johnson isn't better in a 4-5-1 i think we proved that last year/ i think arteta plays better in a 4-4-2 aswell
osman, doesn't make much of a difference when he plays right
baines and neville, there's no difference
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#69 carlmc25

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Posted 20 Sep 2007 - 09:11

disagree... johnson isn't better in a 4-5-1 i think we proved that last year/ i think arteta plays better in a 4-4-2 aswell
osman, doesn't make much of a difference when he plays right
baines and neville, there's no difference


how did Johnson prove it last year, at the start of the seaon Cahill was playing behind Johnson, in effect we were playing 451 and Johnson and Cahill started off scoring goals for fun. As the season went on and Cahill got injured so Johnson was paired with different strike partners (Vaughan etc) he could hardly buy a goal and the same has continued this season. Playing up front for palace he scored 20 goals in a season, for us he scored about 11 or something. I don't think Johnson has proved anything, certainly not that he's better playing in a 442.
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#70 StevO

StevO

    Blagging on the basis of knowledge

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Posted 20 Sep 2007 - 09:26

451 is a great formation, if you have winger. chelsea domminated for two years with drogba cole robben duff swp. we dont have a sinlge winger who is fit to play.

and the list of players who are better in 442 or 451, you've just guessed at most of that. grav was good for 6 months! 6 MONTHS!!! and he hasnt been able to get a game since!

and when cahill was good in a 451, it was more of a 4411 (442 imo) as cahill was a second forward. but yak is more of a threat than cahill, but we can use cahill some where else when yak plays.

bored now.
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