What Can This Team Achieve?

[Bill]

Signed for Borussia Dortmund on a three-year contract from Ajax in Jan 2006. Seen as a replacement Tomáš Rosický...played twenty-five games and scored none. If he was a success they why did they offload him to us?

 

Have no idea how well he played for them but the bare facts suggest he didn't set the place alight.

 

Could this be the reason why Mike.........

 

In December 2005, Pienaar suffered a knee injury that would keep him out of action for four months. One match later, in January 2006, it was announced that Borussia Dortmund had signed Pienaar on a three-year contract from Ajax.

 

Not easy coming back after four months out with a bad knee injury.

Journalistic tendencies coming out again, only quoting half the article.

[Calico]

Beat me to it Licker!

 

MikeO... Dortmund has been in such a piss-poor state in terms of managing its best players that it is little surprise Pienaar struggled. It was not a simple case of him not being good enough and the farmed off to us; of course, there may have been an element of that to it in terms of him wanting to get fit, but I doubt it's the main reason as Licker pointed out.

[lilpyrokid951]

Give Carsley some credit? What for? Being an average player who does a job? Or being so one dimensional he can only perform in one formation perhaps?

 

it could be said that cahill only flourishes in the 451

sure you wanna go saying that a player is garbage just because they fit really well into a certain formation?

because we all know both cahill and carsley are not garbage and are FAR from it

[carlmc25]

it could be said that cahill only flourishes in the 451

sure you wanna go saying that a player is garbage just because they fit really well into a certain formation?

because we all know both cahill and carsley are not garbage and are FAR from it

good point, many of our players only flourish in the 451 system - we all know Carsley is no great shakes in a 442, but then again none of our central midfielders are. The fact is in a 451 he has been consistently excellent over the last few seasons and he will go through a brick wall for Everton, I don't think he is the most talented of footballers but in a 451 he'd be one of the first names on my teamsheet. A word for Neville as well, a player I'm not overly enamoured with but once again has been excellent since switching to RB but never gets any credit even when he has a hand in a few goals.

 

No one could possibly say Pienaar was a success in Germany, he may have had a knee injury which knocked him back but as far as I'm concerned - playing only 25 games, scoring no goals and being farmed out on loan (with an option to buy I thought?) suggests flop to me. Whatever the reasons, he's a good player

 

As for Tommy, no one is saying he is the long term answer or that in a 442 he is definitely what we need - as blue4ever said we need the powerhouse CM that we've been craving for years. All I'm saying is he gives us creativity and energy and let's not judge him until he's been given a chance, I still think he has something left in the locker.

[Bill]

"Playing only 25 games, scoring no goals and being farmed out on loan (with an option to buy I thought?) suggests flop to me. Whatever the reasons, he's a good player."

 

Make your mind up Carl is he a flop or a good player. ??

 

If you read the article you will see they bought from Ajax a week after his Knee injury, ( Why no medical ??) and he never played for them for over 4 months, so 25 games doesnt seem a bad return. ( bit better than VDM )

As to the goals scored he is not a goalscorer, in fact his best season with Ajax seen him score only 5 times, his seasonal average is about 3 per season and he's nearly there with us now. I think he was brought here for the football input not for goals.

Arteta had nobody here to help him play Football, Osman was on the opposite wing and not playing very well hence the long ball every time, but now Pienaar, Osman, and Arteta link up so well together we are able to play more football through the Midfield, much more attractive to watch and the results are coming in.

 

At whatever price they are asking for Pienaar i think it should be done while he is playing here, and not waiting till the season runs out, risking another Fernandes Fook up.

[carlmc25]

"Playing only 25 games, scoring no goals and being farmed out on loan (with an option to buy I thought?) suggests flop to me. Whatever the reasons, he's a good player."

 

Make your mind up Carl is he a flop or a good player. ??

 

If you read the article you will see they bought from Ajax a week after his Knee injury, ( Why no medical ??) and he never played for them for over 4 months, so 25 games doesnt seem a bad return. ( bit better than VDM )

As to the goals scored he is not a goalscorer, in fact his best season with Ajax seen him score only 5 times, his seasonal average is about 3 per season and he's nearly there with us now. I think he was brought here for the football input not for goals.

Arteta had nobody here to help him play Football, Osman was on the opposite wing and not playing very well hence the long ball every time, but now Pienaar, Osman, and Arteta link up so well together we are able to play more football through the Midfield, much more attractive to watch and the results are coming in.

 

At whatever price they are asking for Pienaar i think it should be done while he is playing here, and not waiting till the season runs out, risking another Fernandes Fook up.

I always said he was a good player (for us). IF he was such a success at Dortmund and is only on loan to build his fitness then why on earth would they sell him to us when he's playing so well? If they sell him to us then I can only assume it's due to them not being too keen on him, either that or we'll have to offer silly money. I hope we get him as he looks a fantastic buy, but if Dortmund do sell him to us then I think that has to define his stay at Dortmund as a flop

 

Another example of a flop is Brad Friedel, he looked absolutely abysmal at Liverpool and has gone on to be one of the consistently best keepers in the league at Blackburn. All I'm saying is not every club works out for every player, but the one manager who did get the best out of Tommy G is Moyes, so if anyone is going to get him playing again then it's him.

[StevO]

Pienaar wil only cost us £2m, im pretty confident we'll tie him up

[MikeO]

Journalistic tendencies coming out again, only quoting half the article.

 

As I said I knew nothing at all about Pienaar's time at Dortmund. Think judging him on a season and a half is fair isn't it? Presumably Borussia gave him a medical before they signed him. On paper and given their willingness to get rid he can surely only be regarded as a flop, whatever went before.

[Bill]

"Presumably Borussia gave him a medical before they signed him"

 

 

They signed him a week after he done his Knee, must have been the same Medical team that did'nt give VDM one.

[Calico]

Pienaar wasn't a flop. They way the two of you are looking at it is backwards. If you're just gonna look at the goal statistics then you could call a lot of Dortmund's players flops.

[carlmc25]

Pienaar wasn't a flop. They way the two of you are looking at it is backwards. If you're just gonna look at the goal statistics then you could call a lot of Dortmund's players flops.

we're not just looking at it from a goals point of view, that was just added ammunition. I'm looking at it as he's only played 25 games for them and they're now loaning him out with a view to selling him pretty cheap, that's surely the sign of a flop in anyone's books?

[Everton_Worshiper]

Nope, its a sign a player doesn't fit into a particular teams plans.

[carlmc25]

Nope, its a sign a player doesn't fit into a particular teams plans.

which is the same thing, especially after only a year and a half.

[MikeO]

So you buy an international player to replace Tomáš Rosický and he does well for you....doesn't flop at all, turns out to be the player you expected.

 

"I know," thinks Doll "I'll loan him out and then sell him, that's a good idea!"

 

Makes a lot of sense. Also (from AFP)...

 

"Slowly but surely, South African midfielder Steven Pienaar is recapturing the form that made him one of the most sought-after players in Europe in his early twenties.

 

The 25-year-old shone brightly in the Ajax side which won the domestic title in 2004, and reached the second round of the UEFA Champions League in 2005/06.

 

But he failed to show his true talent during a mixed 2006/07 season with German club Borussia Dortmund."

 

And my apologies for being backward <_< .

Edited November 28, 2007 by MikeO

[Bill]

""So you buy an international player to replace Tomáš Rosický""

 

Sorry Mike but they got him on a free, and its not surprising he struggled after 4months out with a busted knee.

 

 

Borussia Dortmund Loans Midfielder Steven Pienaar To FC Everton

 

Borussia Dortmund has loaned midfielder Steven Pienaar to English Premier League Club FC Everton until the end of the upcoming season (2007/2008). Both clubs agreed not to disclose the fee.

The 25 year-old South African international joined BVB at the start of the 2006/2007 season from Ajax Amsterdam on a free transfer.

[carlmc25]

""So you buy an international player to replace Tomáš Rosický""

 

Sorry Mike but they got him on a free, and its not surprising he struggled after 4months out with a busted knee.

Borussia Dortmund Loans Midfielder Steven Pienaar To FC Everton

 

Borussia Dortmund has loaned midfielder Steven Pienaar to English Premier League Club FC Everton until the end of the upcoming season (2007/2008). Both clubs agreed not to disclose the fee.

The 25 year-old South African international joined BVB at the start of the 2006/2007 season from Ajax Amsterdam on a free transfer.

it may not be surprising he struggled and the reasons may be understandable, but the fact is, he had a fairly bad injury then came back and struggled for form, so they've loaned him out to us - basically that means, so far, he has flopped. Whatever the reasons and justification, that is the bottom line. Next someone will tell me VDM hasn't flopped!

[Bill]

Putting VD Meyde and Pienaar in the same bracket what-a mistake-a to Make-a, your a crazy man.

 

Both where very good players five years ago, one has had a bad injury struggled to recover Fitness, stamina and confidence but the dedication, determination and hard work has paid off, and he has once again become the very good player that he was.

 

The other went through similar problems but didnt have the same dedication to hard work, therefore did'nt regain any confidence or fitness, and would much rather throw the towel in and seek solace down the pub having a few Beers, so he has not become the very good player that he once was.

 

I'll leave you to decide which one was which.

[MikeO]

Substituting "acquire" for "buy" in my post changes nothing imo.

 

There you go with your nitpicking journalistic tendencies again Bill .

 

In the old fashioned TT tradition we shall have to agree to differ.....but you're still wrong :jerry: .

[Zed]

Carsley is a one dimensional clogger, all teams need them, it helps the team tick.

 

Sometimes the best teams dont have world class players in all positions

 

Look at Makalele at Chelsea, Real Madrid were happy to let him go as they wouldnt give him galactico wages, but he was the one who let the galacticos play. They missed him big time when he was gone

 

Makalele would look shit in a 4-4-2 at Chelsea and Everton.

 

We do need a better central midfielder, but to be fair, moyes has been looking for the right one for years

 

If you look at anything in isolation, its easy to critise

 

Just my opinion at a poster on an Everton forum mind you

[Calico]

Here is the problem.... "flop" and "player not working out" seem to be interchangeable to some people. In football, I personally think this is a backward way of thinking but there you go.