TheBombardier Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Before I start I make no secret of the fact that I am actually a Red. However, I have many bluenose friends who, apart from being very bitter towards LFC and their fans, are usually great lads. I am writing on here not to gloat or mock or antagonise but to try and understand the source of all of the blue bitterness. If you are the "thinking" fans then you must have thought about how such anti-red (and in many cases pure vitriolic and hateful) bitterness arose. I am lucky enough to remember the great Liverpool teams of the 70s and 80s as well as the great Everton team of the mid-80s. In those days there was always great rivalry but it mostly took the form of friendly banter. Who remembers the 1984 League Cup Final or the 1986 FA Cup Final with both Liverpool and Everton fans singing "Merseyside" and "Are you watching Manchester"? Red and blue fans stood shoulder to shoulder and travelled in the same cars and trains to Wembley. We would often jibe at the opposite team but there was none of the personal venomous animosity that you now get aimed at reds supporters. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the current bitterness has its origins with the Heysel disaster and the subsequent banning of English clubs from Europe. Of course this could not have come at a worse time for Everton who had probably their greatest ever team at the time, as good as Liverpool during the period 1985 to 1987 and surely destined to make an impact on Europe had the ban not been implemented. But wait. Do you "thinking" Evertonians honestly believe that this was the fault of Liverpool FC and/or its fans? Wasn't the Heysel disaster merely the last straw, the culmination of a decade of English hooliganism (which until Heysel had never involved Liverpool or Everton fans)? Wasn't the stadium itself decrepit, a disaster waiting to happen? Wasn't the overall policing and the segregation of the fans woefully inadequate? Could it be that a viscious right-wing Tory working-class hating and city of Liverpool loathing regime led by Thatcher and cheered on by Murdoch's media machine, was only too willing to use the disaster to blacken the city and its people. People who had a proud tradition of standing up in solidarity and fighting for the rights of the working class? Thatcher and the powers that be were only too pleased to see English clubs banished from Europe especially as the two clubs most effected heralded from our great defiant city. Oh but most thinking Evertonians can't seem to see past the headlines in the Sun newspaper. Don't forget, it wasn't just Everton who suffered as a result of Heysel. Liverpool had no heart to contest the 1985 final itself following the disaster. They could have won the cup for a fifth time in 85 had it been contested under normal circumstances. During the years when the ban was in place Liverpool won the League three times in 1986, 1988 and 1990. Like Everton they were unable to contest the European Cup in each of the following seasons. Many reds fans believe that the 1988 team of John Barnes, Peter Beardsley and John Aldridge was possibly our greatest ever. We were not able to see this team in action against the best in Europe. So Liverpool fans have as much right to be bitter following the Heysel disaster as you bluenoses. But our bitterness is against UEFA for staging the showpiece final of European competition in a clapped out stadium. Against the Belgian police and authorities for their inept organisation. Against the so-called English fans who had established our reputation for hooliganism during the preceding decade. Against the Thatcher government and English FA who jumped at the chance to ban English clubs from Europe. And yes some Liverpool fans are also partly to blame. But not for their outright violent hooliganism. They are to blame for pushing and eventually charging at Italian fans positioned too close to them and thereby causing a crumbling wall to collapse. But hey, isn't this what football fans do? Shouldn't the authorities have anticipated some pushing, shoving and charging? And let us not forget that Italian fans themselves were not without blame for contributing to the ugly atmosphere of animosity and violence that existed prior to the disaster. Anyway my point is that a lot of your bitterness is misguided and misdirected. You use Heysel as a convenient excuse for the failings of your own team. You Evertonians are too preoccupied with the team across the park. You judge success by whether or not you finish above us. If Liverpool finished 20th in the Vauxhall Conference League and Everton finished 19th you would judge this to be a successful season. Such is the petty small-mindedness of the "thinking" supporters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazjones78 Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Good post and you are right in some respects but youve labelled every evertonian the same,as bitter stuck-in-the-past and blinkered, completely wrong. I see a successfull season as having played better football than the previous, at least as good (something very few people especially the press failed to highlight that not only did we play aggressively and defend well last season but we actually played some good stuff on the ground at times)anyway failing that, having improved on our league position or got further in a cup is what I call success. Most of us on here know we are a wounded animal on a slow recovery and any sign of progress is a good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmymac Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 im a red supported meself fella and i agree with some of your points, things about heysel and such. But as already said here, its not fair to label every evertonian supporter in this way. We have our fair share of arseholes who invade this board and post insults just to get a response and there are some evertonians that do it over on liverpool boards but it is the few that give this response. The fact is we are two teams that are almost neighbours in a major city, there is bound to be rivalry between us, its what makes supporting your club more interesting. I mean Arsenal and Tottenham have much the same history, sure we have all seen the timer on one of the gunners pages showing the countdown from when tottenham last won a cup. My best mate is an Everton supporter and we both enjoy giving each other shit but it works so much better in a friendly banter way. Sorry, think i started to ramble a bit there Fact is we both have our idiot supporters but on both sides, we aint all bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Do any of you red supporters ever go on your own forums, or havent you got any.??? I come from a split family... such as Father & brother ..Reds. Two other brothers plus myself ....Blues. In our house i often ask my red brother, if he wants to post a letter on the Blue Forum, the reply i get goes something like....Feck off you tw@t, why would i want to go anywhere near a blue forum. Which gets me thinking, WHY DO YOU COME ON HERE.?????. Cos i'm like our kid, i wouldnt go anywhere near a red forum, just wouldnt be arsed. I have no interest at all in what you say or do. So to all those reds (good and bad) i say, you are all very very strange people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fozzie22 Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Do any of you red supporters ever go on your own forums, or havent you got any.??? I come from a split family... such as Father & brother ..Reds. Two other brothers plus myself ....Blues. In our house i often ask my red brother, if he wants to post a letter on the Blue Forum, the reply i get goes something like....Feck off you tw@t, why would i want to go anywhere near a blue forum. Which gets me thinking, WHY DO YOU COME ON HERE.?????. Cos i'm like our kid, i wouldnt go anywhere near a red forum, just wouldnt be arsed. I have no interest at all in what you say or do. So to all those reds (good and bad) i say, you are all very very strange people. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fozzie22 Posted August 24, 2005 Report Share Posted August 24, 2005 Before I start I make no secret of the fact that I am actually a Red. However, I have many bluenose friends who, apart from being very bitter towards LFC and their fans, are usually great lads. I am writing on here not to gloat or mock or antagonise but to try and understand the source of all of the blue bitterness. If you are the "thinking" fans then you must have thought about how such anti-red (and in many cases pure vitriolic and hateful) bitterness arose. I am lucky enough to remember the great Liverpool teams of the 70s and 80s as well as the great Everton team of the mid-80s. In those days there was always great rivalry but it mostly took the form of friendly banter. Who remembers the 1984 League Cup Final or the 1986 FA Cup Final with both Liverpool and Everton fans singing "Merseyside" and "Are you watching Manchester"? Red and blue fans stood shoulder to shoulder and travelled in the same cars and trains to Wembley. We would often jibe at the opposite team but there was none of the personal venomous animosity that you now get aimed at reds supporters. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the current bitterness has its origins with the Heysel disaster and the subsequent banning of English clubs from Europe. Of course this could not have come at a worse time for Everton who had probably their greatest ever team at the time, as good as Liverpool during the period 1985 to 1987 and surely destined to make an impact on Europe had the ban not been implemented. But wait. Do you "thinking" Evertonians honestly believe that this was the fault of Liverpool FC and/or its fans? Wasn't the Heysel disaster merely the last straw, the culmination of a decade of English hooliganism (which until Heysel had never involved Liverpool or Everton fans)? Wasn't the stadium itself decrepit, a disaster waiting to happen? Wasn't the overall policing and the segregation of the fans woefully inadequate? Could it be that a viscious right-wing Tory working-class hating and city of Liverpool loathing regime led by Thatcher and cheered on by Murdoch's media machine, was only too willing to use the disaster to blacken the city and its people. People who had a proud tradition of standing up in solidarity and fighting for the rights of the working class? Thatcher and the powers that be were only too pleased to see English clubs banished from Europe especially as the two clubs most effected heralded from our great defiant city. Oh but most thinking Evertonians can't seem to see past the headlines in the Sun newspaper. Don't forget, it wasn't just Everton who suffered as a result of Heysel. Liverpool had no heart to contest the 1985 final itself following the disaster. They could have won the cup for a fifth time in 85 had it been contested under normal circumstances. During the years when the ban was in place Liverpool won the League three times in 1986, 1988 and 1990. Like Everton they were unable to contest the European Cup in each of the following seasons. Many reds fans believe that the 1988 team of John Barnes, Peter Beardsley and John Aldridge was possibly our greatest ever. We were not able to see this team in action against the best in Europe. So Liverpool fans have as much right to be bitter following the Heysel disaster as you bluenoses. But our bitterness is against UEFA for staging the showpiece final of European competition in a clapped out stadium. Against the Belgian police and authorities for their inept organisation. Against the so-called English fans who had established our reputation for hooliganism during the preceding decade. Against the Thatcher government and English FA who jumped at the chance to ban English clubs from Europe. And yes some Liverpool fans are also partly to blame. But not for their outright violent hooliganism. They are to blame for pushing and eventually charging at Italian fans positioned too close to them and thereby causing a crumbling wall to collapse. But hey, isn't this what football fans do? Shouldn't the authorities have anticipated some pushing, shoving and charging? And let us not forget that Italian fans themselves were not without blame for contributing to the ugly atmosphere of animosity and violence that existed prior to the disaster. Anyway my point is that a lot of your bitterness is misguided and misdirected. You use Heysel as a convenient excuse for the failings of your own team. You Evertonians are too preoccupied with the team across the park. You judge success by whether or not you finish above us. If Liverpool finished 20th in the Vauxhall Conference League and Everton finished 19th you would judge this to be a successful season. Such is the petty small-mindedness of the "thinking" supporters. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Good post tbh,i used if there was no Everton game on a saturday go to anfield,had a good laugh there too,the lads who i went with all knew i was a rabid blue we got the jibes in and had a laugh about football in general. Then came heysal,and yes it was something waiting to happen it was just bad luck it was the RS that copped it that night.the juve fans where certainly not without blame and frankly that was a game that should never have been played at all. But i have never blamed the RS for our ban,or there fans for that matter,a lot of blame for that night has to go to UEFA,its a cop out to pile the blame on the RS and thier fans. But when i went back to anfield(for the last time i might add) in the september of 85 things had changed... Something died that night in heysal,and not just the poor supporters,a bit of football died as well,and frankly for me at least it was a sad event. 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StevO Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 i just think its down to local rivalry, obviously with liverpool bein more sucessfull since the 80's the intensity has grown, but i believe it would be the same if we were the more sucessfull. i was maybe a bit too young from the heysel disaster, so i cnt pin iton that. but if you go to manchester, city are also named the bitter blues, its just rivalry, and i love it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fozzie22 Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 i just think its down to local rivalry, obviously with liverpool bein more sucessfull since the 80's the intensity has grown, but i believe it would be the same if we were the more sucessfull. i was maybe a bit too young from the heysel disaster, so i cnt pin iton that. but if you go to manchester, city are also named the bitter blues, its just rivalry, and i love it! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Sadly its got worse over the last few years mate.. It maybe the norwegain mentality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Sadly its got worse over the last few years mate.. It maybe the norwegain mentality <{POST_SNAPBACK}> sneaky scandinavian fuckers! first the saxons now the kopites, whatever next! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willo Posted August 25, 2005 Report Share Posted August 25, 2005 Sadly its got worse over the last few years mate.. It maybe the norwegain mentality <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The fookin viking berserkers !!!!!!!!!!1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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