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Kenwright, Is He Similar To Gillete & Hicks?

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Agreed, another superb post. You have to spend to make money as I've already said, Everton have put their money into the squad in the belief that results on the pitch will get us the revenue and recognition we need.

 

The only problem is, can we wait and see if we keep being successful and a new owner steps in, meaning we don't have to move out of Goodison? I don't think so personally, as it may not happen - leaving us with Goodison which will need serious redeveloping which we just cannot afford. I, like everyone I suspect, do not want Everton to move from Goodison, but I just can't see how we can turn down Kirkby, it's too good to be true.

 

Licker, opinions may not need proving (I never asked for proof) but they should be able to be justified otherwise what is your opinion based on? The grammar wasn't ok - its should have been it's. Unlucky. :)

 

 

I know im shit at Anthing to do with English but that shouldnt be a Capital? I hold my hands up if im wrong.

 

Kirkby Deal is to good to be True? :wacko:

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I'm in agreement with that mate and one of my biggest fears is that we move to Kirkby in the search for investement and when it comes they turn around and say, "I'd have never moved you out the city". We are on the right track to progress both on the field and in attracting investement so why the rush for the stadium move right now it's proberbly the least important time in the last 10 years to be making this step. I belive we can attract investement with our on the pitch actions over the comming seasons and when that happens we are going to be in a position of power in our stadium move rather than being the sideshow to the Tesco Circus!

 

Playing the long game has given us what we have today (that is something Kenwright deserves credit for!) so lets continue with the slow & steady in all areas and we will end up better off in the end!

I agree with all that and that's fair enough, but I also trust in Kenwright wanting what is best for this club. We'd all love to stay at Goodison or in the heart of the city (ie not Speke) and Kenwright must know how unpopular Kirkby is and how if it goes wrong he will be forever blamed, but he thinks it's the right thing to do and he must be getting advised by some of the most respected names in the business, rather than the man on the street or on the phone-ins. The Liverpool Council may come out with all these big noises about sites, but it was too little, too late - and after seeing the city council voted as the worst in the country twice recently I have little faith in their claims anyway. The Kirkby deal will have a lifespan, if we don't go for it now someone else will snap up the land and we're left with no back-up plan apart from redeveloping Goodison which will cost a fortune, a fortune we don't have.

 

It basically comes down to who you believe, Kenwright and his team of experts, or the man on the street who knows little of what actually goes on behind the scenes. I believe Kenwright.

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I've come to the conclusion your a tosser, and fook the grammar you silly boy. And thats an opinion.

You came to that conclusion many months ago and you let everyone know it in every post you write so it's not exactly big news, but thanks for clarifying.

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I agree with all that and that's fair enough, but I also trust in Kenwright wanting what is best for this club. We'd all love to stay at Goodison or in the heart of the city (ie not Speke) and Kenwright must know how unpopular Kirkby is and how if it goes wrong he will be forever blamed, but he thinks it's the right thing to do and he must be getting advised by some of the most respected names in the business, rather than the man on the street or on the phone-ins. The Liverpool Council may come out with all these big noises about sites, but it was too little, too late - and after seeing the city council voted as the worst in the country twice recently I have little faith in their claims anyway. The Kirkby deal will have a lifespan, if we don't go for it now someone else will snap up the land and we're left with no back-up plan apart from redeveloping Goodison which will cost a fortune, a fortune we don't have.

 

It basically comes down to who you believe, Kenwright and his team of experts, or the man on the street who knows little of what actually goes on behind the scenes. I believe Kenwright.

 

I'll not go into this in this thread but Kenwright has offered nothing to believe, everything has already changed from what was initially said and we havent even got planning permission yet!

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"You came to that conclusion many months ago and you let everyone know it in every post you write so it's not exactly big news, but thanks for clarifying."

 

 

 

 

You clarified it yourself by your antics on this board. Droning on about how right you are and how everbody must prove why they think the way they do. I think you should look at yourself very closely and ask, "Why does'nt anybody like me".

Your right about one thing i did make my mind up months ago, after your first post actually and i warned you then that nobody likes a clever dick or a smart arse and you left in a childish tantrum because i had the nerve to speak honestly, but it obviously didnt register because you came back to this board even worse than you were before you left. What happened ? did all the other Forums tell you exactly the same as me. Stop questioning peoples opinions.

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I'll not go into this in this thread but Kenwright has offered nothing to believe, everything has already changed from what was initially said and we havent even got planning permission yet!

I still prefer it to the alternative which seems to be: sitting back and doing nothing, but crossing our fingers hoping that we do get 4th, we continue to keep hold of Moyes and operate in the upper reaches of the league (with teams like Villa, City, Liverpool getting major investment) and hope that some mega wealthy businessman decides to take pity on us and buy us out of the goodness of his heart.

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I still prefer it to the alternative which seems to be: sitting back and doing nothing, but crossing our fingers hoping that we do get 4th, we continue to keep hold of Moyes and operate in the upper reaches of the league (with teams like Villa, City, Liverpool getting major investment) and hope that some mega wealthy businessman decides to take pity on us and buy us out of the goodness of his heart.

 

 

Do you honestly believe that we'll have a massive amount of financial clout just because we get a tin pot stadium? I don't.

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"You came to that conclusion many months ago and you let everyone know it in every post you write so it's not exactly big news, but thanks for clarifying."

You clarified it yourself by your antics on this board. Droning on about how right you are and how everbody must prove why they think the way they do. I think you should look at yourself very closely and ask, "Why does'nt anybody like me".

Your right about one thing i did make my mind up months ago, after your first post actually and i warned you then that nobody likes a clever dick or a smart arse and you left in a childish tantrum because i had the nerve to speak honestly, but it obviously didnt register because you came back to this board even worse than you were before you left. What happened ? did all the other Forums tell you exactly the same as me. Stop questioning peoples opinions.

I never went on any other forums, so er no. I used to be on the bbc club messageboards (which were mainly excellent) until they shut down. I've gone out of my way not to argue with you Licker, or get personal - I think you should take a look at yourself to be honest. You consistently get personal, you consistently use abusive language and reply to nearly everything I write. You just can't stop yourself and seem to get wound up by everything I say, why? I couldn't give a rat's ass what you say about me or whether I'm popular on an internet message board, I have more meaningful things in life and enough real friends not to worry about people on here. I come on because I get sick of some of the absolute rubbish the likes of you spout, influencing young minds who don't know better but than to listen to people stuck in the past. I come on to give them a different viewpoint, I say exactly what I believe and always have - if others disagree then fine, but hopefully some people who may just listened to what you say unquestioned may actually now think for themselves and make their own judgements. Once again you've managed to turn this into a slanging match by taking digs (don't go on about it again etc), no doubt I'll get the blame due to buddy culture - hi Bill, hey we're first name term buddies - but you're the one who was looking for this argument, like usual.

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Do you honestly believe that we'll have a massive amount of financial clout just because we get a tin pot stadium? I don't.

no, but we will have a brand new stadium at little cost, which doesn't need hundreds of millions to rebuild so we will then be a far more attractive proposition to an outside buyer. That's the theory.

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"You came to that conclusion many months ago and you let everyone know it in every post you write so it's not exactly big news, but thanks for clarifying."

You clarified it yourself by your antics on this board. Droning on about how right you are and how everbody must prove why they think the way they do. I think you should look at yourself very closely and ask, "Why does'nt anybody like me".

Your right about one thing i did make my mind up months ago, after your first post actually and i warned you then that nobody likes a clever dick or a smart arse and you left in a childish tantrum because i had the nerve to speak honestly, but it obviously didnt register because you came back to this board even worse than you were before you left. What happened ? did all the other Forums tell you exactly the same as me. Stop questioning peoples opinions.

 

I think he puts across a good opinion and agree with a lot of what he says.

 

So are you saying anyone who doesn't agree with you should not visit the forum? That'll do wonders for the forum...

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no, but we will have a brand new stadium at little cost, which doesn't need hundreds of millions to rebuild so we will then be a far more attractive proposition to an outside buyer. That's the theory.

 

Your being blinded by propeganda Carl the stadium will cost 200mil so with Tesco's 50mil in the pot we will need to find 150mil.

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Your being blinded by propeganda Carl the stadium will cost 200mil so with Tesco's 50mil in the pot we will need to find 150mil.

if that is true then obviously that puts a different perspective on things, where did you hear that? As far as I knew, we were only paying something like £20-50m for the stadium?

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if that is true then obviously that puts a different perspective on things, where did you hear that? As far as I knew, we were only paying something like £20-50m for the stadium?

 

Just to clarify something mate,

 

You didnt know we sold Finch Farm & You dont know the details of what the stadium is projected to cost but you still defend these people and claim Kenwright / Kirkby is the answer to our prayers?

 

They are spoon feeding you information in the hope that you wont question it and by the looks of things you havent!

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I've never heard that we only had to put 20-50 mil in.

 

ive only heard What Goldfish said.

 

Carl you better get looking down the back of the sofa for sum loose change.

I quote (from Terry Leahy - Tesco guy, to Evertonians):

 

Clearly it’s possible to lift the stadium design for Kirkby (or one like it) and drop it onto Goodison or the loop site – and in my heart as a fan, it looks nice. But unless the club is offered a concrete proposal to own a £150 million stadium for around £35 million investment by Everton, and delivered by 2010 / 11 then I’m afraid it is not a realistic option.

 

The stadium is supposed to cost around £150-200m, but we're only meant to be paying about £35m, that's where I'm getting my figures from.

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I quote (from Terry Leahy - Tesco guy, to Evertonians):

 

Clearly it’s possible to lift the stadium design for Kirkby (or one like it) and drop it onto Goodison or the loop site – and in my heart as a fan, it looks nice. But unless the club is offered a concrete proposal to own a £150 million stadium for around £35 million investment by Everton, and delivered by 2010 / 11 then I’m afraid it is not a realistic option.

 

The stadium is supposed to cost around £150-200m, but we're only meant to be paying about £35m, that's where I'm getting my figures from.

 

I cant be arsed finding the quote but the same bloke has confirmed Tesco will be paying 50mil only so by your sums when we start digging in Kirkby we need to dig up 115mil in order to have enough cash for the stad.

 

Yes I know it doesnt make sense thats why we are questioning, not because we dont want this but because there are contradictions in ever release of info so which is correct? The safe option is to demand the truth not sit back and praise Kenwright!

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Just to clarify something mate,

 

You didnt know we sold Finch Farm & You dont know the details of what the stadium is projected to cost but you still defend these people and claim Kenwright / Kirkby is the answer to our prayers?

 

They are spoon feeding you information in the hope that you wont question it and by the looks of things you havent!

I'm still waiting for where this £150m figure is coming from? I believe official statements not rumour, if you know something different then I'd like to know the source so I can check up on it.

 

To further quote Leahy (a very successful businessman and Evertonian who knows what he is doing)

 

I have heard it suggested that a ‘no’ vote for Kirkby would precipitate a change at the club, and thereby increase the likelihood of new investment. I have two reactions; first Bill Kenwright, Keith Wyness and David Moyes have turned a relegation side into a European side, something that a number of better invested clubs have failed to do. Second, the prospect of outside investment in the club is massively increased by the Kirkby proposal. Without it, any prospective investor knows that the first £150 million of investment would have to go into a stadium, with nothing to show on the pitch. With Kirkby, new investment could go straight into the team, with the prospect of a return by way of better results.

 

One final point, in my business life I have learned the most valuable commodity is trust. Without it you don’t have much to build on. I may not always like it, but I’ve learned to trust the people closest to issues to make the best judgement. When the Board, the manager and the leading players of Everton are unanimous that a move to Kirkby is right, I know they have the best interest of the club at heart and I trust their judgement. Whichever way I look at it, the heart says Goodison but the head says Kirkby.

 

I agree with all that, he's an intelligent guy who doesn't make many bad decisions. But as I say, if you have any hard evidence to prove your claims of £150m are accurate then that would make things very different, but I think you have actually misread the costs involved.

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I cant be arsed finding the quote but the same bloke has confirmed Tesco will be paying 50mil only so by your sums when we start digging in Kirkby we need to dig up 115mil in order to have enough cash for the stad.

 

Yes I know it doesnt make sense thats why we are questioning, not because we dont want this but because there are contradictions in ever release of info so which is correct? The safe option is to demand the truth not sit back and praise Kenwright!

So basically what you said was all speculation and what I said was based on official press statements, yet somehow I should believe what you're saying? Tesco may only be paying £50 because isn't a large part of the funding supposed to be done through tesco vouchers or something similar? Maybe the council chip in, all I know is Everton are only supposed to be funding £35m of the stadium cost - if that is true then that is a quite frankly AMAZING deal and I don't know how anyone in Kenwright's position could turn it down.

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I think turning the club around is a pretty big thing he has done for the club. Moyes has turned this club around, but who chose Moyes? Kenwright that's who. Who gave Moyes his transfer funds, risking plunging us into debt? Kenwright that's who. Who's been chairman for our most successful seasons in the last 20 years? Kenwright that's who. Who has managed to get us a quite incredible deal with Tesco for a new staidum when there were no other viable options out there and we couldn't afford to redevelop? Kenwright that's who.

 

How did he miss out on millions with Rooney? He was a young kid who had done virtually nothing for Everton and we sold him for £20m plus add-ons, it was a fantastic deal and the biggest single factor why Everton are now challenging for Europe when we were going nowhere fast with Rooney in the team.

 

The lack of appreciation for Kenwright I find nothing short of disgraceful, here is a man who didn't have to rescue us from the Johnson debacle, but stepped in even though he didn't have the most money in the world and saved us. Being a chairman does actually involve some work you know, he doesn't just mess around all day smoking cigars and laughing it up, he puts the time in, he's at every match supporting the players, he's stuck by Moyes even when the fans were getting twitchy and he's also managed to keep hold of Moyes for years.

 

Kenwright says he would sell if someone came in with the right offer, no one has - that's not his fault. If Kenwright walked out on Everton now and then Moyes left we'd plummet faster than a stone down a well, it's what some fans deserve for their lack of respect and gratitude. Moyes and Kenwright have my 100% support, they've made some mistakes - who hasn't - but they've done a lot more good than bad. But you just can't please some fans.

 

In what ways could Kenwright actually be doing a better job, by nailing himself to a cross?

 

I had to stop reading there as i needed to clean up the mess after i pissed myself laughing!

the word deluded comes to mind, or maybe misinformed, im not sure anymore!

 

but it doesnt matter because as always, carls opinion is correct and we shall all rot in hell for disagreeing with him!

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Tesco's have said that no money at all will be handed over to Everton, the £50 million pounds thats been bandied about is the money they will hand over to Knowsley Council for the land.

Tesco's where refused permission to build until they got Everton on board, but you have to ask yourself are we jumping in on Tesco's back, or are they jumping in on ours, either way a Stadium is going to cost at least £250 million quid to build, so where do you think that money is going to come from. ?

 

 

PS .... We have all gone way off topic here.

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I had to stop reading there as i needed to clean up the mess after i pissed myself laughing!

the word deluded comes to mind, or maybe misinformed, im not sure anymore!

 

but it doesnt matter because as always, carls opinion is correct and we shall all rot in hell for disagreeing with him!

 

maybe it's you who is misinformed Stevo, ever thought of that? I quote, from a well respected expert - rather than some guy on the internet who probably gets all his info from the Star, rumour or football phone-ins:

 

Dear Chairman.

 

You’ll recall that two years ago I was elected as a “special advisor” to the Board at the club’s Annual General Meeting, so it is only right that I give you my advice on the proposed Ground move.

 

I am, also, writing to you because so many of my fellow Evertonians have asked my views on this crucial issue. I guess this reflects not only my role of a Business School Dean, but my long term – and very public – interest in sports finance.

Like every Blue, I feel many emotions. Some of the best nights and days of my life were at Goodison; against Fulham, when we won our first post-war title, against Bayern and the 4-4 against Liverpool. Goodison was great – but even greater were the players and the fans. I want my children and grandchildren to look forward to the same kind of success so I’ve looked closely at the case for the move to Kirkby and the alternatives.

 

Sir Terry Leahy has already completed some of the analysis I would normally make. He flags the scale of the Kirkby development – 80 acres against our current 7 acres and the slightly larger (than Goodison) Scotland Road Site – with all that means for development and new finance. He highlights the £150 million cost of the same stadium as a stand-alone project against £35M the Kirkby development is likely to cost Everton.

 

Looking at the alternative sites to Kirkby, it is hard to see how the costs to the club could be kept below £150 Million. The contribution of local and corporate partners is crucial to keeping the costs to the club down. I admire Sir Mohammed Anwar Pervez and his achievements at Bestway, but there is a world of difference between its financial capacity and that of Tesco. According to the latest figures Tesco’s profits are twice Bestway’s total turnover! At £4 billion, its profits are fifty times greater than Bestway’s £73 million profits.

 

It is hard to see how Bestway could provide significant financial support, when a £150 million stadium development would pretty well wipe out their entire profits for the last three years! Similar comments can be made about the local authorities. Here, I confess to some personal interests. Although I was born and lived off Stanley Road, my family – like so many Liverpudlians – was moved to Kirkby by the Council when I was eleven. Even now, although my company is based on Rodney Street, I have worked with Knowsley Council and found it an outstanding partner, as have Ford, Vertex, QVC and a host of others.

 

I don’t doubt Warren Bradley’s sincerity, but I question his ability to deliver his promises about funding, planning permissions, access roads etc. I remember the Kings’ Dock and the apparent promises about planning permission around Goodison and developments around the planned arena. Working on Rodney Street, I am acutely aware of the problems faced by the Mathew Street Festival, The Fourth Grace, The Tram etc. I am, also, aware that Warren’s already going cap in hand to Gordon Brown to cover a £20 million deficit on the Capital of Culture.

 

I am less than encouraged that a key role in Everton’s future will be played by Jason Harborrow, the Council’s newly appointed Executive Director for Culture, Media and Sport. We know him best, of course, as the Chief Executive of the Culture Company.

This means that I must conclude that the sites in Liverpool require that the club must fund any new ground development here out of its own resources. That means finding at least £150 million, plus any lost income while the parts of Goodison are redeveloped if the “redevelop at Goodison” option is pursued.

 

This raises some of the greatest concerns that I have about the future not just about Everton, but about many other top flight clubs in England. Despite the new money coming into the game through television, increased ticket prices, merchandising, Premier League clubs (if we include the risk investments of new owners) are massively in debt with total indebtedness now over £3 Billion or roughly the total Premier League TV income for the next 3 years.

 

I want Everton to be relatively debt free, if the feared financial crunch happens and Hedge Funds (already under pressure from crashing stock markets) and others start demanding their “pound of flesh” from new investors in the Premier League.

Every ½% increase in interest charges costs a club borrowing £150 Million an extra £1 Million a year– we’ve had four of these increases over the last year –on top of the £10 million required to service the basic debt for a stadium costing £150 million, plus any other of the club’s debts.

 

The Kirkby alternative will involve debt, but using Sir Terry’s figure of £35 Million, an annual outlay of around £2.5 Million to service the basic debt for the stadium against at least £11 Million for the Scotland Road site. Even staying at Goodison with no redevelopment costs but lost revenues from obstructed views, limited executive facilities, weak local amenities etc. is expensive. The table below answers many questions for me.

 

Comparing the three most widely touted alternatives and using conservative estimates of income and expenditure, the move can give us a minimum of £6.5 Million a year more than we have now to spend on players and other developments. The Scotland Road loop would actually mean £4.5M less than we have now or £11M annually less than Kirkby, even if we assume, as I do here, bigger average gates at that site.

 

Besides this, the likely two year delay could cost the club around £15 Million in lost income and added costs. Similar analysis for a redeveloped Goodison indicates that this is the most expensive option with the lowest returns. Over the next 5-6 years, the Scotland Road site would reduce Everton’s spending power by £50 million compared to Kirkby.

 

 

 

Kirkby Scotland Road Undeveloped Goodison

Costs Annual £M £M £M

Debt Servicing 2.5 11 0

Obstructed Views - - 1

Operating costs -1 0 0.5

Total 1.5 11 1.5

Net Additional Annual

Gate 4 4.5 0

Executive 2 2 0

Amenity Development car parks etc 2 0 0

Total 8 6.5 0

Balance +6.5 -4.5 -1.5

 

I’ll always remember the glory days and nights, but if I want my grandchildren to have more glory days and nights from the great players we can sign – rather than the bank charges we can pay – for me Tesco and Knowsley is undoubtedly the best choice.

I confirm, however, that whatever the outcome of the vote, wherever we play – I’ll support Everton.

Yours truly, Professor Tom Cannon. (20/08/07)

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Tesco's have said that no money at all will be handed over to Everton, the £50 million pounds thats been bandied about is the money they will hand over to Knowsley Council for the land.

Tesco's where refused permission to build until they got Everton on board, but you have to ask yourself are we jumping in on Tesco's back, or are they jumping in on ours, either way a Stadium is going to cost at least £250 million quid to build, so where do you think that money is going to come from. ?

PS .... We have all gone way off topic here.

did you read my post, numbers weren't bandied about - I quoted the open letter from the Tesco CEO to Everton fans. This is not rumour or conjecture or open to misinterpretation, he said the stadium would cost us £35m - fact. The whole development may cost £400, but the stadium should cost about £150 when opened, £200 when finished, and will cost us £35m. That is what we have been told, if it's a lie then it's a lie, but for now that's all we have to go on so why question it?

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The stadium cost is 150mil like it states in your post, this has now risen to 200mil.

 

Tesco have confirmed they will be paying 50mil

Tesco have confirmed Everton will be paying 35mil

 

where does the other 65mil come from? Or 115mil if you go on the current figures??

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Carl, Nobody is going to read that btw.

 

Do you not find it funny how Everybody here seems to know that Tesco have put 50million in ( For the land) and you're the only one who thinks Tesco are buying the whole Shindig and we give 'em 20 mil!

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Carl, Nobody is going to read that btw.

 

Do you not find it funny how Everybody here seems to know that Tesco have put 50million in ( For the land) and you're the only one who thinks Tesco are buying the whole Shindig and we give 'em 20 mil!

I don't really care where the rest of the money is coming from, all I care is what we're paying and we've been told by all sources that it's approx £35m. If Everton don't invest in a new stadium we may end up like Marine, we can't afford to redevelop Goodison.

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I don't really care where the rest of the money is coming from, all I care is what we're paying and we've been told by all sources that it's approx £35m. If Everton don't invest in a new stadium we may end up like Marine, we can't afford to redevelop Goodison.

 

Ever considered the 35mil is the initial investement??

 

I cant find the press releases but hows this?

 

After explaining what Tesco is contributing to the project, a specific stadium cost of £110M is finally mentioned in Terry Leahy’s open letter, this is later confirmed by Keith Wynes as the true net cost of the stadium. Keith Wyness is confident, some would say over confident, that the sale of Goodison, £15M, and naming rights, minimum £25M, will raise a combined £40M in contribution towards that cost, this leaves a figure of £70M which needs to be accounted for through a combination of vague “discounts” and some unspecified long term debt taken on by Everton. Perhaps Barr’s new owners (sold in June 2007, a fact conveniently omitted) wont want to build a stadium for nothing. They are, remember, a business who operate in a low margin industry and whose profits are measured in single million figures.

 

If this all adds up to you then good luck but it doesnt add up to me. Also the mention of naming rights above also highlights the fact that KW plans to spend a large part of our "increased revenue stream" up front on the actual stadium leaving no money for players and the like which was the purpose of the move in the first place.

 

Anyway back on topic, this confusion is one of the jewels in Kenwright's crown. I think not!!

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im only half way through reading so this may be off topic now, but carl you say we have a small catchment area, then say we should move to a smaller one in kirkby!

 

the deal is too good to be true? its still gunna cost £150m!

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im only half way through reading so this may be off topic now, but carl you say we have a small catchment area, then say we should move to a smaller one in kirkby!

 

the deal is too good to be true? its still gunna cost £150m!

how?! The deal was originally stated as this:

 

Kirkby/Knowsley council (whoever it is!) give the land to Tesco (worth £50m)

Tesco then pay £50m towards the stadium (worth £75m in reality as they have a deal with the stadium builders)

 

this equates to £125m of the £150-200m that the stadium is projected at costing, leaving us with 25-75m, minus the £15m we'll get for the Goodison land.

 

Now there are some rumours that Tesco aren't paying £50m towards the stadium, but towards the land - but at the same time this £50m they're giving to the council for the land, the council are using to part fund the stadium. This means that the numbers are still the same it's just a grey area who is paying for what, but Everton's input has remained the same, approx £35m. We won't be paying £150m for the stadium, we can't afford it! That's why we want to move to Kirkby as it's so cheap!

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Ever considered the 35mil is the initial investement??

 

I cant find the press releases but hows this?

 

After explaining what Tesco is contributing to the project, a specific stadium cost of £110M is finally mentioned in Terry Leahy’s open letter, this is later confirmed by Keith Wynes as the true net cost of the stadium. Keith Wyness is confident, some would say over confident, that the sale of Goodison, £15M, and naming rights, minimum £25M, will raise a combined £40M in contribution towards that cost, this leaves a figure of £70M which needs to be accounted for through a combination of vague “discounts” and some unspecified long term debt taken on by Everton. Perhaps Barr’s new owners (sold in June 2007, a fact conveniently omitted) wont want to build a stadium for nothing. They are, remember, a business who operate in a low margin industry and whose profits are measured in single million figures.

 

If this all adds up to you then good luck but it doesnt add up to me. Also the mention of naming rights above also highlights the fact that KW plans to spend a large part of our "increased revenue stream" up front on the actual stadium leaving no money for players and the like which was the purpose of the move in the first place.

 

Anyway back on topic, this confusion is one of the jewels in Kenwright's crown. I think not!!

At the end of the day no one can categorically state exactly how the finances work out, we can only go on what we're told unless you are an insider. What you can be sure of is that the board will have looked at the numbers long and hard and must think this is feasible otherwise they wouldn't be doing it. They will be doing all of it under the guidance of the top experts in the business, so you have to have a little trust. I think Kenwright has earned out trust, I read before that he is the only Premiear League Chairman who doesn't even take a salary for his job. If that is true, then surely that says it all about his committment to Everton. Anyway, I think we must have explored every option in this thread now! maybe we should just move on and lock it or something!

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did you read my post, numbers weren't bandied about - I quoted the open letter from the Tesco CEO to Everton fans. This is not rumour or conjecture or open to misinterpretation, he said the stadium would cost us £35m - fact. The whole development may cost £400, but the stadium should cost about £150 when opened, £200 when finished, and will cost us £35m. That is what we have been told, if it's a lie then it's a lie, but for now that's all we have to go on so why question it?

 

So you are gullible enough to believe that a Stadium worth £200 million pounds is only going to cost EFC 35 million.

 

And this is the 50 million pounds i said had been bandied about, From the Echo in July.

 

I’m more concerned by Keith Wyness’s comments: “We will be getting a very nice stadium for a small amount of money.”

When something sounds too good to be true, it’s because it usually is.

The stadium images released today are undoubtedly impressive.

But where will the £150m cost of the enterprise come from?

We’ve been told that Tesco will pump in £50m via Knowsley Council, and naming rights are likely to generate a further £10m, but Tesco have since said that no money will be handed over to Everton.

So at this moment in time EFC can come up with £15m with the sale of Goodison and £10m for naming rights.

 

 

So i'll ask again where do you think the moneys coming from, to buy a £200m Stadium.

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carl if you really believe what people who have a lot to gain from this move want to tell you then fine.

but ask yourself, if everyone else here knows about it costing us £150m, then there is no smoke without fire.

take a look around broadsheet articles (not the sun) supporters clubs, find where the info came from like we did.

this info came from the club, spread through the media, even the echo.

 

also, you said yourself, Sir Terry is a very clever business man, this is his party, we've just been invited, but we have to bring the booze or no one will get wasted!

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carl if you really believe what people who have a lot to gain from this move want to tell you then fine.

but ask yourself, if everyone else here knows about it costing us £150m, then there is no smoke without fire.

take a look around broadsheet articles (not the sun) supporters clubs, find where the info came from like we did.

this info came from the club, spread through the media, even the echo.

 

also, you said yourself, Sir Terry is a very clever business man, this is his party, we've just been invited, but we have to bring the booze or no one will get wasted!

But then I don't understand why Everton would move to Kirkby if we're getting very little out of it. It's not as if Kenwright is on a mission to destroy the club so if it isn't a good deal why would he go ahead and do it? If we have to pay over £100m for Kirkby then I can't possibly see Everton going along with it. You hear a lot of rumours and speculation, I've been hearing it for years about all sorts of things, but until I see something official then I keep my mind open. I believe Everton won't be paying much for the new stadium, based on the statements that have been officially released and based on the assumption that if there is nothing in it for Everton then why would we move?

 

If it makes me gullible then so be it, but I don't see how Everton could possibly get away with winning a fans vote on a new stadium, based on projections of only having to pay about £35m, then turning around and saying 'actually, we're paying £150m for it.' If that happened, the board must know they'll be out of a job and fast. I can't see the logic.

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But then I don't understand why Everton would move to Kirkby if we're getting very little out of it. It's not as if Kenwright is on a mission to destroy the club so if it isn't a good deal why would he go ahead and do it? If we have to pay over £100m for Kirkby then I can't possibly see Everton going along with it. You hear a lot of rumours and speculation, I've been hearing it for years about all sorts of things, but until I see something official then I keep my mind open. I believe Everton won't be paying much for the new stadium, based on the statements that have been officially released and based on the assumption that if there is nothing in it for Everton then why would we move?

 

If it makes me gullible then so be it, but I don't see how Everton could possibly get away with winning a fans vote on a new stadium, based on projections of only having to pay about £35m, then turning around and saying 'actually, we're paying £150m for it.' If that happened, the board must know they'll be out of a job and fast. I can't see the logic.

 

We don't get very little out of it we get what everyone gets when they build a new stadium that's the point regarding the stadium, we get less out of this than both Knowsley & Tesco so it begs the question why not go another hundred million in debt and go it alone?

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Correct me if i'm wrong JD but i gather you are trying to tell us that Kenwright is the best option. Or did you miss out on a category "E".

 

Actually, you are wrong. The point of my post was not to suggest that BK or anyone else was our "best" option (which is not what I think anyway - I don't know who our "best" option would be and I wouldn't even try to guess). My point was to highlight the basic ownership styles and philosophies vis-a-vis the economic and personality poles.

 

Economic: Does the owner set a generous budget, and not even sweat too much about going over it if he thinks it's necessary or if it's a short-term hit that can yield long-term benefits (B, C)? Or does he set a tight budget and refuse to break it unless there's an absolute dire emergency (and sometimes not even then) (A, D)?

 

Personality: Does the owner believe that an organization functions best when you put football people in football positions and let them do their jobs, overseeing but not interfering (B, D)? Or is he a demanding, meddling mini-dictator who treats the team like his own personal fiefdom, demands a say in every decision, and starts giving people the chop if they disagree with him, criticize him, or lose three games in a row (A,C)?

 

As I said in my post, a type B owner (generous but hands-off) is clearly the kind that 99% of fans (including myself) would want for their team, and BK is definitely not a B. He just doesn't have the money for it. But he's far from the worst owner in the league, and trust me, as someone who grew up near San Francisco I've seen firsthand the difference between a great owner and a horrible owner, because the SF 49ers of the NFL went from maybe the best in the league when Eddie DeBartolo (a B type) owned the team, to maybe the worst in the league when his brother-in-law John York (an A type) took over. If Everton had a John York clone in the owner's chair (incompetent, skinflint, no organizational planning, no long-term financial planning, doesn't know the first thing about running a sports team) you'd be begging for Kenwright to come back. If you still even cared, that is, because they'd probably be down in League Two by then. Kenwright isn't the best owner in the EPL, but he could be a hell of a lot worse. His long-term financial planning leaves something to be desired and he has an image problem - deserved or not - that he can't seem to shake (some of the threads on this board are proof enough of that), but his people sense and organizational planning are demonstrably better than those of many owners, and whatever else you may fault him for, you absolutely have to give him credit for sticking with Moyes in seasons 2 and 4 when probably 90% of his peers would've pulled the plug - he made the right decision to tough it out and it's paying off.

 

And yes, I would rather have BK than Hicks/Gillette. Gillette's almost irrelevant anyway - he's the lower-profile parter, and his teams have never done a damn thing. Hicks is the big money/high profile guy, and he is notorious for turning his American sports clubs into Newcastle-equivalents: superstar signings every year, huge wages shelled out, some of the highest payrolls in his respective sports, and very poor results to show for it (he's the one who offered Alex Rodriguez a $250 million dollar contract to play baseball for Texas, and all he got for it was three straight years in last place before he finally gave up and sent ARod to the Yankees). The one championship he won (with the Dallas hockey club in '99) was more inherited than earned - except for the goalkeeper position, the nucleus of that team was already in place when he bought the team, and you could argue with the talent they had in the late 90's that they should've won at least two or three titles, not just one. The way he's run Liverpool so far, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they ended up going down the same road - big money for bad results every year. If that was what I wanted when I was picking an EPL team to root for five years ago I'd be over on the Toon message board right now, not here.

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Again I am not Bill's biggest fan,

 

However, If Kenwright is so maligned, would the majority have rathered Peter Johnston stayed on ?

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But then I don't understand why Everton would move to Kirkby if we're getting very little out of it. It's not as if Kenwright is on a mission to destroy the club so if it isn't a good deal why would he go ahead and do it? If we have to pay over £100m for Kirkby then I can't possibly see Everton going along with it. You hear a lot of rumours and speculation, I've been hearing it for years about all sorts of things, but until I see something official then I keep my mind open. I believe Everton won't be paying much for the new stadium, based on the statements that have been officially released and based on the assumption that if there is nothing in it for Everton then why would we move?

 

If it makes me gullible then so be it, but I don't see how Everton could possibly get away with winning a fans vote on a new stadium, based on projections of only having to pay about £35m, then turning around and saying 'actually, we're paying £150m for it.' If that happened, the board must know they'll be out of a job and fast. I can't see the logic.

 

thats the whole point carl, thats why were questioning the actions and integrity of the people involved. the numbers dont add up, please dont believe everything they tell you.

remember, first and foremost Sir Terry is a businessman, he wants whats best for him. secondly, Wyness is not an evertonian, if he makes a mess he just walks away, not a problem, hes done it before in previous roles.

if we question them we may find out the truth, we may get what the club and its fans deserve, or they may simply ignor us and do what they want anyway.

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thats the whole point carl, thats why were questioning the actions and integrity of the people involved. the numbers dont add up, please dont believe everything they tell you.

remember, first and foremost Sir Terry is a businessman, he wants whats best for him. secondly, Wyness is not an evertonian, if he makes a mess he just walks away, not a problem, hes done it before in previous roles.

if we question them we may find out the truth, we may get what the club and its fans deserve, or they may simply ignor us and do what they want anyway.

obviously if the numbers do change and we end up paying a lot of money for a stadium in a suspect location then I'll be changing my mind fast on what an amazing deal BK has got for us, I just hope the numbers we were originally quoted were correct! otherwise I would have thought there will be riots! fingers crossed we're still only paying somewhere around the £35-50m.

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obviously if the numbers do change and we end up paying a lot of money for a stadium in a suspect location then I'll be changing my mind fast on what an amazing deal BK has got for us, I just hope the numbers we were originally quoted were correct! otherwise I would have thought there will be riots! fingers crossed we're still only paying somewhere around the £35-50m.

 

if it was only £35m i'd back it all the way to kirkby, but we'll just have to see how they get out of it.

i honestly dont think BK is the one making the mess here, it believe its KW. we all know what a romantic evertonian BK is, a little bit of spin and some bright lights and i think hes got Bill hooked.

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Notice even with talk of Kirkby there has apparently been no interest from investors. I wonder if some will be attracted with planning permision should it be granted?

 

How much more interest do you think would be generated with a Liverpool City centre planning application granted?

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CarlMc,

 

This is a verbatim quote from Robert Earle at the AGM:

 

"The Kirkby stadium cost was around £50 million when first floated. After the feasibility study and the Board’s wish that supporters only received the highest quality seating, facilities, environment etc., the cost rose to about £75 million.

 

Due to construction costs, the figure then became approximately £100 million. Now, because construction costs have risen again, the total stadium cost at Kirkby is in the region of almost £150 million"

 

Also in http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/everton-fc/...00252-19485345/

 

it states "It will cost £150m, rather than the £75m price tag reported this week."

 

Incidentally the article also shows the bias of the Echo, the stadium cost rises £75million and it's summed up in one sentence, had it been 'you know who' it would have been all over the back pages that the cost has increased. More should have been made of it, the same could be said for when Earle said Tesco were giving 55million quid to Everton, they're not and never have been (they're a plc) yet the Echo never questioned it and published it.

 

There are still people out there who believe the stadium will cost £35million and that Tesco are giving Everton £55million. This is not true.

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I have mixed views on Kenwright, he is a much better option than some relatively unknown (to us) American or Russian 'investor' but at the same time I don't believe he has ever searched 24/7 in the manner he says he has for investment. Even during the FSF debacle, it was clear from the start that Kenwright was only going for that because he could remain as chairman and be the public face of EFC alongside Moyes. The same is true regarding his relationship with Robert Earl, who appears to be a fully paid-up of member of the BK Admiration Society. But Paul Gregg was also one, once.

 

Having said that, I have no doubts about his passion for the club and he has presided over a period of harmony and stability which (all credit to David) have seen our on-field reputation and fortunes rise rapidly. We are shortly coming to the moment of truth for the club where the powers that be must decide if they are happy to maintain things as they are or if we are going to unite together and FIGHT to break the current stranglehold. I despair at some of Bill's public utterances with references to 'pulling rabbits out of hats' etc. The reality is we are where we are by a miracle and the net spend on transfers during Moyes' tenure is on one hand a reason to applaud Moyes' true managerial pedigree whilst at the same time an embarrassment and a disgrace to those in positions above him.

 

I would question Bill's desire to see us bridge the gap considering how much of a shambles we were when Moyes took over, it must be beyond his wildest dreams looking at the club currently. Neither with our present manager do we actually need an enormous cash injection, it's just that £30 M net to spend in a summer (nothing phenomenal by our rivals standards) would in my view be hugely beneficial and pay off significantly in terms of what we could achieve. People like Lord Grantchester, Ian Kilbride and others have been mentioned but I would doubt they would be willing to sign cheques under Bill's watch regardless of affection for the club. People don't hand over money easily.

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Thats a decent round up of how I feel, the long game has worked wonders so far but largly down to Moyes IMO. For the future we have to decide if we stick with the current long game and risk fustration from fans, players & inevitably manager or we build. I believe now is the time where we must take the 15mil pushing 20mil spending limit and make it 30mil+ or Villa and City at least will leave us behind next season.

 

Kenwright has been the present for so long its now time to look to the future, you can say the grass is always greener but the reality is Kenwright can not afford to take us any further.

 

Whatever hapens I'm enjoying being blue!

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