Time For Everton To Get A 'kop'?

[paul]

It would take a bitter Evertonian to dismiss the atmospheric qualities that Liverpool have with the kop. So why aren't we trying to replicate this stand when we move to Kirkby?

 

Are we worried that we may get skitted by Liverpool fans for copying it? Can't be that, the design we have for Kirkby is the same as their Centenary stand.

 

Is it about identity and tradition? Can't be that, our identity and tradition is about adhering to the motto Nil Satis Nisi Optimum and a kop like structure is more superior. Identity can be replicated by reproducing the like of the recreation of the Leitch criss-crosses on the side stands. It should not comproise quality.

 

Is it because of executive boxes? No, can't be, they can always double them up on the side stands, which would actually slightly increase the number of executive boxes.

 

Do they think the current Kirkby design is better than a kop like design? Can't be that, Villa, Rangers, Blackburn, Celtic and Man U all complain about the inadequacies of their design.

 

To say that Liverpool have the better atmosphere is down solely to the fans is not only simplistic but also an insult to thousands over Evertonians who have been going in the Gwladys Street over the years. Any long standing singers in the Gwladys Street will tell you how we do have a more than respectable back catalogue of songs, but we have always struggled with the atmosphere due to the inferior structure. Liverpool don't have great fans when it comes to singing, that is the hype, they have do however have a great stand, they got lucky.

 

For us not to replicate this stand, would not be a question of luck, but would be sheer stupidity in my opinion. It's time to compete with them, I don't want 1 kop like structure, I want 2, I want to be better than they are. Fight fire with fire so to speak. If we don't get a stand to compete ourselves, and the next generations of Evertonians will have to carry on pretending that atmosphere is for wool etc. Fine if people don't wish to sing, fine, but we should still have a design that is there for us, and not one that prohibits the singing.

 

By order of Nil Satis Nisi Optimum, Everton must have kop like structure behind both goals

[Bill]

PAUL ... "It would take a bitter Evertonian to dismiss the atmospheric qualities that Liverpool have with the kop. So why aren't we trying to replicate this stand when we move to Kirkby?"

 

WHEN, .. This has gone through has it Paul,? i thought Planning permission had been refused but wont be made public till late May (End of season). dont know how official that is but i heard a little whisper.

[paul]

Hi Licker, yes I was bit flippant with the use of the word 'when' over 'if', the question of move was not the issue I wanted to raise. It was more about the quality of the End Stands.

[Louis]

We've got our equivalent to the Kop, the toilets in the Gwladys Street!

[paul]

We've got our equivalent to the Kop, the toilets in the Gwladys Street!

 

It's just the structure I want, not the smell of it as well!

[teppic]

all the kop is is one large single tier stand.

 

at everton we have a tradition of the double decker stands and if we move to a new stadium i'm sure that is what they will have in mind.

 

the problem with the gwladys is that the roof is too high to trap any decent acoustics. we need a smaller lower tier and larger upper to help noise retention and have imposing stands right over the pitch.

[christophski1]

i agree that the acoustics of the gwladys isnt great. if everton had a 'kop like' stand, then all the pundits who say liverpool have great fans would really see what an atmosphere is like.

 

 

nil satis nisi optimum

[paul]

all the kop is is one large single tier stand.

 

at everton we have a tradition of the double decker stands and if we move to a new stadium i'm sure that is what they will have in mind.

 

the problem with the gwladys is that the roof is too high to trap any decent acoustics. we need a smaller lower tier and larger upper to help noise retention and have imposing stands right over the pitch.

 

It's about quality first over tradition. I could say that we traditionally have posts obstructing our view. It is tradition to play at Goodison. Don't forget our first 60 years we had a single tier as our main end. While I don't dispute that character is important, it cannot ever be in place over quality. A reproduction of the Leitch criss-crosses can add the character.

 

After all our motto is Nil Satis nisi optimum, it's not the latin for 'We like towo tiered stands'!

 

Re : your second point about having a larger upper tier. An important factor for singing is for your fans to stand up. It's a lot harder to encourage fans to stand up constantly in an upper tier. So if there's a lack of standing there's a lack of singing which means it's a waste of time having the acoustics.

 

When you said about the roof being too far above the lower tier, you'd be right if you were talking about the current Kirkby design. However with the Gwladys St now, the singers go under the upper tier. The songs do struggle to project themselves out but that is more to do with the fact that the underside of the upper Gwladys St is not designed with acoustics in mind, if it was then you'd notice the difference.

[teppic]

hmmm... well the design of kirkby seems to have 2 tiers round the pitch. i'm happy that has been incorperated in the plans. the main problem with one huge single tier stand like the kop is an obvious one. people at the back need binoculars to see the action. by cutting the stand in half it improves the viewing for all the supporters.

 

for a decent atmosphere- lets be honest there really are no grounds in the country that produce thumping noise at every game.

 

perhaps a way round this is to include safe standing behind each goal. i believe everton are interested in this and it could be a nice addition to the kirkby ground if it were included.

[Louis]

I'm no longer impressed with any aspect of the Kirkby stadium.

 

I agree that there should be a mixture of stand designs, not all two level stands. I believe that the club have said that it is a nod to Goodison Park as it was the first stadium to have all stands have two levels.

 

The Archibald Leitch criss-cross pattern is part of Everton, it's instantly recognisable to Evertonians.. from the days of Dixie Dean to yesterday against Chelsea, you know it's Everton because of the criss cross and to lose it would be a mistake.

 

There's no doubt that the acoustics do need to be improved.

[paul]

It annoys how they say it's a nod to tradition that it's two tiers. For a start since when is having Executive boxes in the middle of our Ends traditional? Also Goodison has Tiers that overlap each other, we do not have a tradition of 2 tiers that don't overlap each other. You may think that it sounds like a minor detail, it's not it's huge.

 

I find it astonishing that we've had a design that's held back our atmosphere for years and we don't try and fix our problem. We cannot put up with inferior atmospheres just because of a poor attempt at tradition.

 

It is our tradition to be innovators, trying to be the the best, competing. We should have a kop like stand behind both goals. I'm not aware of another big club in Europ that has that. It should be our aim to be the best.

 

Teppic you're wrong about those at the back of a large single tier struggling to see the pitch compared to the current design. The current design of Kirkby does not overlap the lower tier. there is therefore 30 rows lower and 31 in the upper. If we had a large single tier it would be 61 rows the last row wouldn't be any further back.

 

No ground does make 'thumping' noise every week because not every fan is up for it every week, but they do get noise, some far more than others. At your worst games eg Derby, other grounds do get noise because the singers can stand up under a roof to bellow out the songs to the rest of the fans, if the design is wrong this restricts this, ie Everton now.

 

Your last point about safe standing the best you can hope for, is for stading in front of your seat. This is being pushed for by a campaign called Standupsitdown, but due to safety regulation this cannot happen in upper tiers. Therefore in Kirkby, this won't be able to happen in Kirkby, the executive boxes are directly behind the last row so they could have their view blocked and it will also deter fans from standing up. Also even if this was overcome the roof is an entire tier above, so the songs will not resonate well.

[teppic]

fair enough paul, you seem very determined to get your point across. fwiw, i like the look of 2 tier stands and i believe that having a second tier it will improve the view for those people in it over one large single tier stand.

 

talking of atmosphere i believe the stadium is a copy of the cologne w/c stadium? i read that it was easy enough to create a wall of noise in that stadium.

[Bill]

I personally think a two tier stand is a must, and the top stand should be directly above the lower stand and protrude out as far as the lower one, so the floor of the upper stand becomes the roof of the lower stand which would be so much lower than if it was just one single stand, therefore trapping the noise and giving a much better atmosphere.

I suppose each of us has our own view on how it should be and this is my view, as previously said the top tier would only go back as far as the bottom one making it no more difficult for viewing but much better for sound levels.

Whichever design it turns out to be, or whichever location it might be in, i may not be around to see it finished but that will not bother me at all.

Goodison Park is the only place for me, when i think about some of the great players and great teams that have stepped out at Goodison, IN MY CASE FOR OVER 50 YEARS, the tears of sadness and the tears of joy i cried during the history of the grand old Lady, it just wont be the same going anywhere else, even tho it might be a nice new shiny stadium. R.I.P EFCs Goodison History.

[StevO]

acoustics will make a difference, but if anyone thinks that having a differnet roof or tiers will make for a better atmosphere then i would question whether they have been to Goodison over the last five years or so.

 

highbury was called the library, well ive been to noisier librarys than Goodison of previous years.

 

there is no atmosphere at Goodison anymore, the occasional game, derbies, european nights. but on the whole "the famous Goodison roar" is a thing of the past!

 

and the none over lapping stands, go to old traford, the stands dont overlap, they still create a lot of noise over there.

[Bill]

acoustics will make a difference, but if anyone thinks that having a differnet roof or tiers will make for a better atmosphere then i would question whether they have been to Goodison over the last five years or so.

 

highbury was called the library, well ive been to noisier librarys than Goodison of previous years.

 

there is no atmosphere at Goodison anymore, the occasional game, derbies, european nights. but on the whole "the famous Goodison roar" is a thing of the past!

 

and the none over lapping stands, go to old traford, the stands dont overlap, they still create a lot of noise over there.

 

Thats because they get 76.000 in there Steve, as opposed to our 36.000. and they have been very succesfull for the past 30 years, I think that would be the obvious reason. There was nowhere louder than Goodison Park in the 60s when we where very successful, and WE got crowds of 75.000.

 

Those where the days my friends, i thought they'd never end, we sang and danced forever and a day.

We lived the life we choose we thought we'd never lose, those where the days oh yes they where the Days.

 

Some welsh bird sang that in eurovision song contest.

[paul]

Re teppic, Cologne has a form of terracing in there End Stand and that's why it works for them. We don't have that form of terracing so we therefore have different requirements from our stadium in order for our singers being able to sand up. As it is, the singers will be put off from standing up if they have exec boxes right behind them, and standing up in an upper tier is a safety risk and far harder to encourage. If you prefer the look that's one thing, but we cannot put a mere aesthetic opinion over actual quality, it would be like puuting Valente at lb over say Lescott. When it comes to views the large single tier will actually have better views at the back, the current design will be about 2 metres higher up the exact height of the exec boxes. If we were talking about a large single tier with 100+ rows of seats I'd agree with you, there is a maximum you can reach before viewing is compromised we would not reach that by having a 60-70 row End Stand (See my response to Licker). Draw them both types of End Stands now and you'll see what I mean by viewing slightly better for a large single tier than the current Kirkby design! So come on pencils and rulers out!

 

 

 

Re: Licker, I agree that if the Upper significantly overlapped the lower then the underside could be used as a source of amplification. If the underside of the upper was designed with with acoustics in mind then I wouldn't be so disappointed with this. However, consider this, the current Kirkby design has 30 lower and 31 upper, assuming they were to overlap, then our singers in the lower would only have 30 rows compared to currently with 41 rows, so even if we shuffled Kirkby to 41 on the lower and 21 on the upper then while it would be an improved Gwladys Street, I want us to be the best. So just say the great times came along loads and we needed to expand, we decide that we like not having a bowl shaped ground so we decided to expand via an extra tier, we eventually choose an End Stand to add this tier to. That would make a 3 tiered End Stand, the more tiers there are the more filtered the atmosphere is, anything over 2 tiers just isn't good enough. So if we start off with a large single tier, then we have the choice of adding 30 rows to it (which could then compromise viewing at the back as it would be about 90+ rows - teppic), or by adding a second tier that overlaps our large single tier. This would make our End stand 2 tiered overlapping for acoustics with 60 odd rows on the bottom and 30 on top, now that would be a vastly improved Gwladys Street.

 

 

 

Re StevO. Our current Gwladys Street is not a bad design because it is an overlapping two tiered stand. It is bad because of design faults within that structure. Firstly, take what Licker said about the underside of the Upper providing the amplification for the singers directly below it, and therefore acting as a roof for them. Well if you take a look at it from under there it's not designed to project the songs out it's the wrong angle and material to do this. This could be rectified if we were to have a new overlapping double tier. The next problem is that we don't get the songs going now because our singers don't stand up, this is due to a very low beam obstructing the views of those at the back of the stand so they can't see when they stand up, they therefore tell everyone to sit down.

 

Your next point about Man U is one that I'm glad you've brought up. Their fans constantly make the extra effort to purposely stand up, this is from constant encouragement from their fanzines to get fans to stand up. So they have pockets of fans in 3 areas of the ground making that extra effort to stand. Again they struggle with numbers standing. The ones who stand in the lower tier leead to blocking views of Executives in the boxes directly behind them, which has lead to executives getting the stewards involved in removing those standing, and real sense of us and them attitude in the stands. We would simply just end up sitting down. In their Stretford upper this is one place where they do get away with standing even though this is a safety risk. Again it is so much harder to encourage fans to stand up in the upper tier. There is no concertina effect up there (ie front row stands so rest stands) fans therefore purposely stand to get everyone else standing which requires a lot of organisation to do. Eg I don't know where you sit in the ground but imagine if you believed in everyone standing up would you be the first man to do this every single match to encourage those around you to do. Not easy is it. Now imagine tring to get the entire upper first row standing again very hard to organise.

[Louis]

Paul, which new stadium has the best design for acoustics in your opinion?

[paul]

Paul, which new stadium has the best design for acoustics in your opinion?

Thinking of the new stadiums in the Premiership, I'm not jealous of any. It's hard to say which 'acoustics' are best, because it's the positioning of the acoustical source, that and the type of stand that is below it, that is more important. If that is done right then it can make a cheaper roof appear better. If the stand type is wrong then even the best roof can't amplify noise if there is no noise!

 

The best stand, is Liverpool's. It makes me laugh when kopites think they're great fans cos of their atmosphere. Any team who had an End Stand as good as theirs would be able to have a good atmosphere. It's someone who drives a Ferrari thinking they're a better driver cos they can go round a track quicker than someone who drives a Lada!

[paul]

By the way, I don't just want one of them. I want a kop like stand behind both goals.

 

When the next generation of Evertonians come through in about 15 years they won't know any different. In fact they'd be laughing at Liverpool for only having one good End stand, and we'll have 2!

 

Or I suppose we could build un-atmospheric stands like we are doing, and tell our kids excuses like singing is for wools

[EFCfanatic]

If the artists impression is anything to go by behind the goals seem similar to the away end at Blackburn!

[paul]

If the artists impression is anything to go by behind the goals seem similar to the away end at Blackburn!

Yes it is. They both have the same no of rows of seats on the lower, 30. Upper is similar number. The Kirkby exec boxes are placed slightly lower, so anyone standing up in the lower tier will probably get told to sit down as they're blocking the view of the xec boxes.

 

 

So it appears that our board believe that Blackburn has the best End Stand in the country.

[christophski1]

one tier- park end?

[StevO]

the people in the lower tier will not be blocking the view of then execs as it will be slightly higher than the back row of the lower stand.

[paul]

the people in the lower tier will not be blocking the view of then execs as it will be slightly higher than the back row of the lower stand.

 

It's something I would like clarified. It is fine when fans sit but I'd like it confirmed that it's the case when they stand. The exec boxes can also put the fans at the back off from standing up in front of it though. Plus what are the odds on the police control room being in the 'back of block 4' position?

 

The break in tiers also means that at best we'll get fans at the lower standing, but the roof is too far above to spread the songs around.

[scouser_george_efc]

i want BK to put his hand in his pocket and redevelope Goodison up or try and get a place in liverpool somewhere the loop on scotty road looks good i think but if we have to move to kirkby then i would be happy but i would like us to stay in liverpool but if we have to go we have to go simple. KEIOC

[pete0]

even thou Goodison is not acoustically well thought of, top managers still acknolege thsat Goodison has the best/most intimidating atmosphere. wenger, mourinho and ferguson.

[scouse]

And it has the highest decibel count throughtout a match.

[paul]

even thou Goodison is not acoustically well thought of, top managers still acknolege thsat Goodison has the best/most intimidating atmosphere. wenger, mourinho and ferguson.

 

Imagine how intimidating it would be then if we had a stadium designed properly for atmosphere.

 

In the main the atmosphere is absolutely rubbish in Goodison, and it's to do with the poor design which inhibits the fans from standing up, and it's to do with the poor acoustics.