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Are We Really Moving Forward?

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Guest efctaxi   
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As much as we are moving forward , it's also important to look at how many of our immidiate rivals in the Prem have moved backwards .

 

Spurs , Blackburn , Bolton , Portsmouth , Newcastle to name a few over recent seasons .

 

Are we really moving forward , or have other teams fallen off track ?

 

Yes , Moyes has made some good signings , but remember he's made a few bummers too .

 

VDM , Beattie , Castillo , Johnson , Valente , Davies , Kroldrup etc etc ( my opinion of course ) .

 

Does he really get the best out of players , or is that EFC fans concentrating on the good and not the bad ?

 

Does he really give the kids a chance ? Some yes , most no ?

 

Yes , we've moved forward since Moyes arrived without doubt , but are we still moving forward , cup final aside ?

 

If not , what is our next move ?

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I thnk we are moving forward and some of the players you cannot say were a complete failure for example AJ was good for a season and a half and we made 2 mil profit. Beattie was good for a season and a half and we made a 2 mil loss. Castillo did a job Valente did a job. Davies VDM I agree with.

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we have gone from being a relagtion club to a european club in the space of 7 years, so in that sence yes.

 

If you look at this season to last, then yes and no.

Europe, we went backwards.

League, i think we moved forward, even tho we finished 5th again, we handled our selves better against the top 4 an started to win game by more then the odd goal.

In the Cups, defo yes, went from semi-final in CC to a Cup final in the FA-Cup.

In terms of revanue we also moved forward, with kitbag an le-caq.

 

Only other team that went forward was Villa

Altho Newcastle did go forward, to where they belong.

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Beattie and Johnson both played their parts in the evolution of this club, looking back they're obviously not on the level of our current squad, but we didn't have our current squad then.

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We've definately moved forward in terms of stability: buying young exciting kids, consistant top ___ finishes, europe regulars (now), financialy sound...so i think we have. We were soon to be relegated if you think about it, i remember when i was a bit younger, gettin excited about finishing 15th...now i wanna win stuff!? Thats moving forward in my opinion. We are solid. You can't really move backward Tax when you buy players who are ment to good (in the cases of spurs, newcastle, portsmouth) They all bought, at the time, very good players, if it hasnt worked out its not going backwards, its just everyone else has the stability, the slow generative growth that teams respect Everton for. We dont go out and buy 8/9 players like your sunderlands, tottenhams...its a slow process...look at United, they buy 2/3 quality, team players who work well together, most of their better players came from their academy. We've got our super-trooper Rodwell to blossom, Baxter, Duffy, Gosling (many people disagree) and loads more...our futures bright (abeit the bankrolled arabs), we have the foundations alot of teams crave for. I like where we are, i love the support, the forward moving ideas, the team...i really hope it gets better but all in good time me thinks :)

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we moved forward for a few years, but i dont think we have in the last couple of years. i think we have got to a point where we cant move forward without major investment. still happy thou

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we moved forward for a few years, but i dont think we have in the last couple of years. i think we have got to a point where we cant move forward without major investment. still happy thou

we have moved forward, we are now an established top six side in europe every year look at the quality of players we have now compared to 5 years ago there is no comparison,also the marketing of the club has moved on enormously,5 years ago we were going nowhere drifting along ,we are gradualy building a sound base on the pitch and off it.dont underestimate how far we have come, there are a lot of teams who envy us .yes we have some way to go but we are not far away,money would help but it does not guarantee success,i for one am full of optimsm COYB

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I think we have definetely made progress without a doubt, year on year. The season before last, even the beginning of this season, there were plenty of fixtures that you thought, ok, we need a bit of luck here or we need so-and-so to have a good game there, and I'd be be worried we wouldn't pick up points, (i'm talking about the likes of Newcastle, Spurs, Fulham, Wigan, Blackburn, City, Villa - all teams round and about us, not the top4). However, from the second half of this season, I've stopped looking at this games with an inch of fear, but with full on confidence that we can get maximum points out of these games. And, I'd even go as far as to say, that I'm sure we can give any of the top4 teams a run for their money. The only thing we are lacking is that extra bit of quality that you need to win those big games. But to get that you need $$, and the only thing we can do there, is hold on to our best players, and year on year continue to progress in the way we have done, bringing in quality young players (including the younguns like Rodwell). Even if we bought 1 top quality player each year, as long as its not "one-in, one-out" that's still progress.

I think, not having the money that other teams have means we can't just buy in a bunch of players aiming for instant success, it's something that we've got to be a little patient with and aim for over the coming years. We have to remember, it's not just progress on the pitch that we have made, but also behind the scenes as well. A think we're building a house on the rocks, which has got to be a good thing, and I really do believe that we are only a season or two away from winning something.

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we moved forward for a few years, but i don't think we have in the last couple of years. i think we have got to a point where we cant move forward without major investment. still happy thou

 

I guess its how you define progress.... If its where you finish in the league well.... I can't really see us going much further without major investment..

Can we improve our squad, playing style, points tally & day to day running of the club... yes I think there is a vast amount of improvement possible...

Is that enough though.... I think we can improve each area vastly but is it enough? At the end of the day fans players & staff want that 4th spot and in their eyes thats the next step....

 

Sadly I think were at a point were the BIG 4 's financial clout is self sustaining..... to a point..... Even if TV rights were to vanish I'm sure at least three of them could milk their own TV rights....

 

The clubs themselves have so much bargaining power and financial clout, independent of TV money that without it they would still dominate the league...

Their squads are worth 100's of millions of pounds... % wise much much higher than the rest of us...

They have huge fan base's all over the world bringing in millions of pounds in merchandising every year....

 

If we all see "The BIG 4" as the next step we may as well pack and go home...... Its never going to happen long term

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I guess its how you define progress.... If its where you finish in the league well.... I can't really see us going much further without major investment..

Can we improve our squad, playing style, points tally & day to day running of the club... yes I think there is a vast amount of improvement possible...

Is that enough though.... I think we can improve each area vastly but is it enough? At the end of the day fans players & staff want that 4th spot and in their eyes thats the next step....

 

Sadly I think were at a point were the BIG 4 's financial clout is self sustaining..... to a point..... Even if TV rights were to vanish I'm sure at least three of them could milk their own TV rights....

 

The clubs themselves have so much bargaining power and financial clout, independent of TV money that without it they would still dominate the league...

Their squads are worth 100's of millions of pounds... % wise much much higher than the rest of us...

They have huge fan base's all over the world bringing in millions of pounds in merchandising every year....

 

If we all see "The BIG 4" as the next step we may as well pack and go home...... Its never going to happen long term

 

Personally i slightly disagree, as if we were to finish 4th above Arsenal per say, i think Arsenal would be in trouble, as they relay on Champ league money, an i think you find that there gate recipts would drop.

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Personally i slightly disagree, as if we were to finish 4th above Arsenal per say, i think Arsenal would be in trouble, as they relay on Champ league money, an i think you find that there gate recipts would drop.

 

Actually, I've always thought Arsenal might be the best-prepared of the four to handle a CL-less season, especially in relation to Liverpool or Man U who both have much larger debt loads to service than Arsenal does. In particular I seem to remember that the Glazers' business plan when they bought Man U was dependent on CL money, which was one of the things that had their fans so nervous.

 

Regardless, if Man City keeps spending big money and they learn to spend it wisely, on the right players, then it seems likely that they WILL break the monopoly sooner or later, and when that happens we'll see how the loser fares without their CL money.

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Talk to fans of other clubs! a very big percentage of them are full of respect for Everton FC.

It's no secret that our injuries to major players (Yakubu, Arteta and at the end Jagielka) this season caused us all kinds of problems yet STILL we finished 5th and got runners up at Wembly.So ok we didn't win anything (if you discount, runners up in the FA cup, qualification for the Europa league) but then neither did clubs who spent far more than us.What we did win was massive respect from many people, I'd say that's worth something.

This club has moved on big time since Moyes arrived in many ways, most have been mentioned above, the players, Kenwright and the fans have also done their bit.

No teams like playing us, many people in the football world respect us for the way we do things, I'd say that's moving forward.

 

Think back a few years.....lets see have we moved forward :o

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we have moved forward, we are now an established top six side in europe every year look at the quality of players we have now compared to 5 years ago there is no comparison,also the marketing of the club has moved on enormously,5 years ago we were going nowhere drifting along ,we are gradualy building a sound base on the pitch and off it.dont underestimate how far we have come, there are a lot of teams who envy us .yes we have some way to go but we are not far away,money would help but it does not guarantee success,i for one am full of optimsm COYB

 

im assuming you misread my post. we have moved forward since moyes has come in, but in the last few years we have finished in the top six. to move forward we have to finish higher, which we havent. so on the field, how have we moved forward? we dont have more players than 3 years ago, we are still finishing in the same place in the league. we have done well to get here, i am not pulling anybody down, but we have not gone forward in the last 3 years in my opinion. we've had a couple of good cup runs, and enjoyed them along the way, but until there is a trophy in the cabinet, a cup run is still no better.

 

off the field we haven't really got better until this year, elstone trying to move things forward and kitbag sorting out the mess JJB made. and again, until improvements start showing on the balance sheet, we wont know if it works will we.

 

i agree money helps, but does not guarantee success, but lack of money, in the modern game, guarantees a lack of success.

 

What we did win was massive respect from many people, I'd say that's worth something.

 

i dont mean to be short mate, but what the fuck is respect worth?

who was scored the injury time winner in the respect final last year?

who was the top scorer?

what was the bonus money for the winning team?

 

did you ever dream of seeing everton win respect or winning the cup/league?

fuck respect, i want us to win something worth winning!

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Moved on a bit from all this....

 

Everton F.C ? sorry guys, but we are the laughing stock of british football! We are Crap and relegation fodder!

 

Moyes is a sack of shite and should be given a P45 for Easter. His total lack of tactical know-how shines through in every game we're chasing.

 

The players he has bought have been sh!te in the main (apart from Arteta, Neville to a point).

 

He came from a lower division, never worked on the top tier, never dealt with big name players and 4 years in still doesn't look able to do so. I wouldn't mind if he'd have used his knowledge of the lower leagues to buy a few uncut diamonds but he hasn't even managed that (Cahill was an easy signing for anyone to see before someone replies with that).

 

His opening gambit in transfer negotiations of "How would you like to play for the best manager in the Prem" has made him a laughing stock amongst players.

 

His abilities as a manager are vastly over rated and I do not value him in the same league as Benitez and Jol let alone rate him higher.

 

Laughing stock we are.

 

Have said it before DM is not the right man for the club.

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i dont mean to be short mate, but what the fuck is respect worth?

who was scored the injury time winner in the respect final last year?

who was the top scorer?

what was the bonus money for the winning team?

 

did you ever dream of seeing everton win respect or winning the cup/league?

fuck respect, i want us to win something worth winning!

 

 

OK respect means nothing to you!....fine.

 

Maybe you want an Arab to come along, change Everton beyond recongnition, perhaps no local players a Spanish manager, big name stars, who only come for the massive wages....hey why not change our Blue shirts to say red!.........perhaps we could qualify for the champion league each year, so what if we don't win it, just finish in the top 4 was worth it.....OH and we could maybe win the FA cup every few years, like Portsmouth did a few years back!!

BUT WE MUST WIN SOMETHING AT ALL COSTS...........Well that's not exactly how I see it mate.

We were three injured players away from winning the FA cup this season....and we still managed 5th place, I'm pretty pleased with that......and I'm REALLY pleased people respect Everton FC :)

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respect means something to me in my own life, not on the football field.

do you want to be the team everyone likes? i want us to be the team everybody fears! fuck being nice, i want players to fear playing against everton, the fear of being humiliated by a better opponent. not full of respect for a team who haven't won anything.

 

i didnt once say i want an arab to come along, and win at all costs. im not getting on the back of the board, the manager or the team. what im saying is three years ago we got into the top six. and we have stayed there, im not saying people are not doing a good job, im saying they have done a good job to get us there. but now it takes a good job just to keep us there. im not saying we are not doing well, im saying we have done well.

 

but answer me this, when you were a kid playing football did you ever imagine celebrating coming 5th? celebrating losing a cup final just because we were there? did you celebrate the respect of other clubs fans?

 

personally, i dont give a shit what other fins think of us. i care about us and us alone.

 

anybody who came up against everton teams in the 60's, 70's and 80's were scared of us, yes they may have had respect for us too, but respect didnt win us our illustrious history and a bunch of league and cup triumphs.

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Guest efctaxi   
Guest efctaxi

Some very interesting and varying replies :)

Hope I didn't open too big a can of worms with this one , but it is a great subject for debate .

Just be nice about it lmao :lol:

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respect means something to me in my own life, not on the football field.

do you want to be the team everyone likes? i want us to be the team everybody fears! fuck being nice, i want players to fear playing against everton, the fear of being humiliated by a better opponent. not full of respect for a team who haven't won anything.

 

i didnt once say i want an arab to come along, and win at all costs. im not getting on the back of the board, the manager or the team. what im saying is three years ago we got into the top six. and we have stayed there, im not saying people are not doing a good job, im saying they have done a good job to get us there. but now it takes a good job just to keep us there. im not saying we are not doing well, im saying we have done well.

 

but answer me this, when you were a kid playing football did you ever imagine celebrating coming 5th? celebrating losing a cup final just because we were there? did you celebrate the respect of other clubs fans?

 

personally, i dont give a shit what other fins think of us. i care about us and us alone.

 

anybody who came up against everton teams in the 60's, 70's and 80's were scared of us, yes they may have had respect for us too, but respect didnt win us our illustrious history and a bunch of league and cup triumphs.

 

Go back to my first post!.....You want us to be the team that everybody fears!.....Well I mentioned that teams at present really don't like playing us, so we are getting towards what you want.And I would say that with our BEST team out we CAN beat most teams, and they know it!

 

You've made a big thing out of the word "Respect".....I used it and stand by the context it was in.

 

I know you didn't mention Arabs and the things that go with them, but to move forward as fast as you seem to want, might just need a camel or two tied up outside Goodison Park!

 

Yes I played football as a kid and teenager, I loved playing football for footballs sake, obviously wanted to win, but also to enjoy every game.I like a lot of you, have a cardboard box in the roof with some tacky old wooden and plastic trophies, there's even one acting as a door handle on my sons cupboard door <_< I liked winning, but it wasn't everything to me.

All Everton fans want us to win the next game and the one after that, and if we can do that whilst the football world admires the way we are doing it all the better.

Everton HAVE moved forward in the last few years......staying in the top 6 is a friggin achievement, this year coming 5th and runners up in the cup with our injuries "IS" .........A FRIGGIN MASSIVE STEP!

What a shame we have to question it :huh:

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And I would say that with our BEST team out we CAN beat most teams, and they know it!

 

You've made a big thing out of the word "Respect".....I used it and stand by the context it was in.

 

I know you didn't mention Arabs and the things that go with them, but to move forward as fast as you seem to want, might just need a camel or two tied up outside Goodison Park!

 

What a shame we have to question it :huh:

 

we can beat most of the teams below us, but the gulf between the top four and all below is bigger than we let on. our record against the top four in recent years isnt great. but i agree we can beat most teams in the league, as finishing where we have proves. but we are not feared like any of the top four are, or how we have been in the past.

 

i understand you stand by your respect and the context in which it was meant, i have no problem with that.

 

i have made no reference in that we need to move forward faster. im happy with the progress we have made, i just believe we are at the limit without further investment. im very happy with where we are and proud of it too, im just not the optimist that some others are, we wont break into the top four without investment as far as i can see.

 

and i am not questioning anything about the club, as you can see, ive said everybody is doing a good job.

 

(i agree with everything else)

 

Some very interesting and varying replies :)

Hope I didn't open too big a can of worms with this one , but it is a great subject for debate .

Just be nice about it lmao :lol:

 

this is the stuff that keeps us coming back.

one of the most interesting topics in recent weeks, im sure most will agree.

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Maybe keeping hold of Lescott and Rodwell (if we do that is) means we have in some ways moved forward.

 

This thread has got us all thinking about what Everton have done in the past few years, probably a good thing in some ways.

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Honestly, no. We can't possibly move forward until we have the strength in depth to cope with the kind of difficulties we faced this season.

 

If we get to the final of the europa league, we play almost 20 extra games. If we get to the fa cup final again, its another half dozen, same for the carling. Add those to the 38 in the league and youre asking a lot out of what is a handful of players.

 

I have the utmost faith in Davey and the board, and in the players on the pitch, and I think that on a good day we are capable of beating the top 4 (well pool and arsenal at least). However we need at least 4 or 5 fresh faces and luck with injuries to be able to compete at the top level, something I'm sure we're all aware of. Only time will tell....

 

On the respect thing, I see it everytime I say I'm a fan of the toffees. A few years back I would have been laughed at, now there seems to be a level of "fair play mate" about it. However, that is just a stepping stone to the level that the top 4 play in, and although originally I was grateful of the respect, I'm fed up of teams that I know are beneath us (Bolton, Wigan etc) talking confidently about playing us, like we are a fast route to some easy points. The next progression before we become stgnant is Champions league. Next season is the time for it.

 

Personally I think while our progression is slow we are heading in the right direction. What it takes next year is a consolidated shaking off of the "proud of how far we've come" vibe, and a lethal dose of the "come and have a go if you think you're hard enough" tonic. Other teams, especially the top 4, don't relish playing us, because they know they could drop points if they're not careful. Next season, we need to take those points from them, then we will be moving forward ;)

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im assuming you misread my post. we have moved forward since moyes has come in, but in the last few years we have finished in the top six. to move forward we have to finish higher, which we havent. so on the field, how have we moved forward? we dont have more players than 3 years ago, we are still finishing in the same place in the league. we have done well to get here, i am not pulling anybody down, but we have not gone forward in the last 3 years in my opinion. we've had a couple of good cup runs, and enjoyed them along the way, but until there is a trophy in the cabinet, a cup run is still no better.

 

I think you seem to forget that a few seasons ago we got 5/6 even 4th spot - a lot to do with luck as much as anything else, the season we finished 4th, we had pretty much no injuries for the whole season, now imagine of that had been the case this season. We are in a position now where, 5 or 6 is seen as normal and not just as a 'good result', we shouldn't forget that. We have consistently (over the past couple of seasons at least) proved ourselves as "best of the rest" outside the top four, and anyone who thinks we can just walk into that elite group is dreaming. Everyone knows, that that elite is miles ahead of the rest of the league, and realistically, we shouldn't even be touching them, but the fact is we are!!, and we're doing it better than anyone else in the league. That is something to be proud of and no matter what all the deriders say, we have consistently made progress. We're not gonna be Prem or CL winners for a while yet, but we are, undoubtedly, heading in the right direction. Moyes has been the key to that, and certainly will continue to be, as long as he is here. OK, he's not brought any silverware home yet, but I believe, in fact know, that it won't be long before he does. And the progress we've made is that we are able to say those words with confidence and honest belief - and that's a long, long way from where we were even one season ago.

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Go back to my first post!.....You want us to be the team that everybody fears!.....Well I mentioned that teams at present really don't like playing us, so we are getting towards what you want.And I would say that with our BEST team out we CAN beat most teams, and they know it!

 

You've made a big thing out of the word "Respect".....I used it and stand by the context it was in.

 

I know you didn't mention Arabs and the things that go with them, but to move forward as fast as you seem to want, might just need a camel or two tied up outside Goodison Park!

 

Yes I played football as a kid and teenager, I loved playing football for footballs sake, obviously wanted to win, but also to enjoy every game.I like a lot of you, have a cardboard box in the roof with some tacky old wooden and plastic trophies, there's even one acting as a door handle on my sons cupboard door <_< I liked winning, but it wasn't everything to me.

All Everton fans want us to win the next game and the one after that, and if we can do that whilst the football world admires the way we are doing it all the better.

Everton HAVE moved forward in the last few years......staying in the top 6 is a friggin achievement, this year coming 5th and runners up in the cup with our injuries "IS" .........A FRIGGIN MASSIVE STEP!

What a shame we have to question it :huh:

agree with you fully. also what about finch farm the envy of a lot of clubs the red shite included. our batch of young ones coming through saving millions now that is progress.respect, tradition,history,that is what makes us a good club,take Chelsea won things recently but if roman throws his toys out were would that leave them, like Leeds we are building a strong foundation and when we win things we will have earned them the right way the Everton way humble in victory, dignified in defeat, RESPECT, TRADITION, HISTORY,thats what this club stands for thats why we are the peoples club i for one am proud of this, and trust me the trophies will come COYB

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We have moved forward, but to an extent, we aren't rewarded for it. For example, Australian commentators believe that Tim Cahill should be playing at a higher club. Players like Mbia are bossed by Eto into 'not' moving to Everton, like players like Moutinho see Everton as a needy club and keep the rumours flowing until Arsenal or whatever come along.

 

We know we're becoming a big club, but we're still seen as the Everton of 3 years ago, at least to the neutral fan.

 

But fuck em, we're progressing and we know it.

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No. We've been selling to buy and I think before last season then we were making progress. Now we're standing still and we've just been lucky enough that other teams have underperformed. Next season I think it will be different, I don't expect to qualify for Europe again next year without some decent signings in this window.

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I think you seem to forget that a few seasons ago we got 5/6 even 4th spot - a lot to do with luck as much as anything else, the season we finished 4th, we had pretty much no injuries for the whole season, now imagine of that had been the case this season. We are in a position now where, 5 or 6 is seen as normal and not just as a 'good result', we shouldn't forget that. We have consistently (over the past couple of seasons at least) proved ourselves as "best of the rest" outside the top four, and anyone who thinks we can just walk into that elite group is dreaming. Everyone knows, that that elite is miles ahead of the rest of the league, and realistically, we shouldn't even be touching them, but the fact is we are!!, and we're doing it better than anyone else in the league. That is something to be proud of and no matter what all the deriders say, we have consistently made progress. We're not gonna be Prem or CL winners for a while yet, but we are, undoubtedly, heading in the right direction. Moyes has been the key to that, and certainly will continue to be, as long as he is here. OK, he's not brought any silverware home yet, but I believe, in fact know, that it won't be long before he does. And the progress we've made is that we are able to say those words with confidence and honest belief - and that's a long, long way from where we were even one season ago.

 

if you read my posts i think you will see i havent forgot where we have been finishing in the league. i have praised the club for it.

 

we have been the best of the rest, but they are catching us.

 

the top four are an elite group, and we can not walk into it, i didnt say at any point we could. and realistically, no we are not touching them. they have carried on staying above us in the league and will continue to do so.

 

agree with you fully. also what about finch farm the envy of a lot of clubs the red shite included. our batch of young ones coming through saving millions now that is progress.respect, tradition,history,that is what makes us a good club,take Chelsea won things recently but if roman throws his toys out were would that leave them, like Leeds we are building a strong foundation and when we win things we will have earned them the right way the Everton way humble in victory, dignified in defeat, RESPECT, TRADITION, HISTORY,thats what this club stands for thats why we are the peoples club i for one am proud of this, and trust me the trophies will come COYB

 

finch farm is a brilliant facility, but unfortunately due to our poor financial situation we sold it before it was complete (another of wyness' shortcomings imo)

 

the young ones are starting to show, but dont pressure them yet, there is only jack who is looking like a premiership player so far.

 

please, please, please, do not put us in the same bracket as leeds! are you aware of who they are and what happened to them?

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please, please, please, do not put us in the same bracket as leeds! are you aware of who they are and what happened to them?

That's what I thought but I reckon street end's just mangled his punctuation and so it reads different to what he meant.

 

I think he meant that if Abramovich left Chelsea they'd end up like Leeds. Move the comma from before "like Leeds" to after it :) (at least I hope that's what he meant).

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No. We've been selling to buy and I think before last season then we were making progress. Now we're standing still and we've just been lucky enough that other teams have underperformed. Next season I think it will be different, I don't expect to qualify for Europe again next year without some decent signings in this window.

the 'other teams' underperform every year mainly because they don't have as a good a manager and as good players in most positions. I agree we need to make signings but let's not forget that we had no Yakubu for virtually the whole season, Arteta for a major part of it plus injuries to the likes of Cahill, Anichebe, Jagielka, Vaughan etc etc to contend with as well. Barring another injury crisis we'll be stronger next year regardless, especially with Rodwell coming through and hopefully Fellaini a bit sharper. We will make signings anyway, I have no doubt.

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