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Lacking Depth In The Defensive Positions.

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Heitinga - Jags - Distin - Baines

 

Hibbert - Yobo - Mustafi??? - Neville???

 

Coleman

 

 

Am I missing some players here or are we poorly stocked at the back?

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Considering Everton aren't good enough yet to have 'happy' squad players, I think midfield is the biggest worry. Neville, Hets, Hibbert and Coleman (if Moyes ever trusts him to play first team football, which considering he played Hibbert often enough is a joke) can all play at right back. Neville, Jagelika, Yobo, Distin and Hets can all play at center back. And Baines, Neville and Distan can play at left back. In total we have eight defenders, which is good enough.

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Considering Everton aren't good enough yet to have 'happy' squad players, I think midfield is the biggest worry. Neville, Hets, Hibbert and Coleman (if Moyes ever trusts him to play first team football, which considering he played Hibbert often enough is a joke) can all play at right back. Neville, Jagelika, Yobo, Distin and Hets can all play at center back. And Baines, Neville and Distan can play at left back. In total we have eight defenders, which is good enough.

 

let's keep it at heitinga untill we find a better nickname :D

 

i agree though, defense isn't a big issue.

i'm more conserned about our lack of wide players.

Altough billy and Pienaar aren't bad, they aren't the type to get 5 to 10 good crosses in each game, wich would bring much more threat with good headers like Cahill felli, ...

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I reckon the only defensive option we lack is a GOOD defensive mid.

 

Nev is alright for cutting out passes and all but what he does with the ball after is what annoys me.

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I reckon the only defensive option we lack is a GOOD defensive mid.

 

Nev is alright for cutting out passes and all but what he does with the ball after is what annoys me.

agreed, A top class defensive midfielder is really needed but personally I dont think moyes wants to replace his captain just yet, because where else on the park is he going to go?

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Nobody is concerned that injuries and the African Cup of Nations will leave us bare at the back then?

 

I mean, we can't really turn to the youth either because one plays RB for which we already have three or four other players and the other is 17 :mellow:

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Yes. Then we are left with Jags - who will have recovered from a *major* injury - and Distin. Yes, JH can play there so then what - back to Hibbert and Coleman as the only natural RB's? Sure, Neville can play there and Gosling can fill in but Gosling will be needed to cover attacking positions since that is where he is best.

 

THEN

 

What if Jags, Distin or JH get injured then we are even worse off and oh, btw, this is just after the busy Christmas period so injuries are very, very possible.

 

I just think that we could be left very vulnerable at the back. Maybe we can get a loan or a free agent in there for cover?

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let's keep it at heitinga untill we find a better nickname :D

 

i agree though, defense isn't a big issue.

i'm more conserned about our lack of wide players.

Altough billy and Pienaar aren't bad, they aren't the type to get 5 to 10 good crosses in each game, wich would bring much more threat with good headers like Cahill felli, ...

 

Agreed!

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Yes. Then we are left with Jags - who will have recovered from a *major* injury - and Distin. Yes, JH can play there so then what - back to Hibbert and Coleman as the only natural RB's? Sure, Neville can play there and Gosling can fill in but Gosling will be needed to cover attacking positions since that is where he is best.

 

THEN

 

What if Jags, Distin or JH get injured then we are even worse off and oh, btw, this is just after the busy Christmas period so injuries are very, very possible.

 

I just think that we could be left very vulnerable at the back. Maybe we can get a loan or a free agent in there for cover?

 

we'd have jags and distin with heitinga and baines as the full backs...jags gets injured for arguments sake then hibbert to right back and heitinga in the middle...you're talking like you expect 3 or 4 injuries in defence and if it happens then it happens we havent got the budget to be paying 7 or 8 top class defenders just in case

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I'm not talking about 7 or 8 top class defenders. We don't even have one :huh:

 

I just find it very strange that a David Moyes squad lacks depth in the defensive positions and am concerned about it.

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yobo, heitinga, baines, distin, jagielka i'd have them in most teams be honest with you. neville can do a good job anywhere there, hibbert can do a good job too i dont care what anyone says hes been good this season so far. i dont know what you want to be honest do you want us to spend another 10 million on two more players that wont play all the time...or am i bein thick and missin your point?

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name 4 teams an there players that have all these defenders? other then spurs as they have 12 rb's

 

Even Man u don't have that much, defensively

 

 

Man U = Brown, Neville, Rafael, Fabio, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evans, O'Shea, Evra. I think that's quite a lot defensively tbh.

 

We probably could do with another defender just to be sure, but we've got what we've got now.

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Man U = Brown, Neville, Rafael, Fabio, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evans, O'Shea, Evra. I think that's quite a lot defensively tbh.

 

We probably could do with another defender just to be sure, but we've got what we've got now.

 

Like us three of them are kids Rafeal, Fabio and Evans. That leaves them with Brown, Ferdinand, O'shea, Vidic and Evra as Neville will never be fit again.

 

Gurantted the kids are more experianced then our kids, but still kids.

 

EDIT: forgot to put Vidic in

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Turns out that we've bought Heitinga as a defensive mid;

 

“My best position is ahead of the defence as a holding midfielder. But I’ve also played a lot of games for the national team on the right side.”

 

Surprised by that.

 

So Neville to RB then...

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Heitinga has played DM before, yes. Mainly for Ajax, if not exclusively I think.

 

Okay, so Chelsea at the back: Bosingwa, Ferreira, Beletti, Cole, Zhirkov(as cover), Terry, Carvahlo, Alex, Ivanovic

 

Arsenal: Sagna, Eboue, Vermaelen, Gallas, Clichy, Gibbs, G. Hoyte, Djourou, Senderos, Song, Silverstre, Traore

 

Liverpool: Johnson, Degen, Kyrgiakos, Carragher, Skrtel, Agger, Ayala, Aurelio, Dessena, Insua, Darby, Kelly

 

 

Right. So. All I'm saying that if DM is telling the truth about wanting to break the top four then we could do with a bigger defensive line.

 

As for Jags would get into most teams and all of that other stuff...

 

The fact is that none of our players have been tested at the top level and if they have then haven't come out looking too good. So no, by performance, which is surely how football players should be judged, the fact is that they are not top class defenders. Of course I want them all to prove that they are and I am a fan who doesn't like getting on players backs but the fact is that I'm just not sure that they're good enough to stretch for a season.

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not been tested at the top level?? heitinga is new yeah but he starts for one of the best national teams on the planet...vidic was made to look a fool against one of the worlds best strikers but torres didnt get a sniff against jagielka. we're playing at the top level of domestic football how much of a bigger test do you want? playing against some of the best in the world i dont know how big of a test you want to give them. and if we did get another defender what happens when everyone is pipin up wantin to play...disharmony is gonna get into the team its a fine balance and i think we have it perfectly in defence

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Hmmm, Jags against Villa when playing for England. I seem to remember the Spaniard making him look a joke, actually.

 

I am more than a fan of JH. Personally thought he was going to play for one of the best teams in Europe so believe me when I think he can be a top class player but, certainly, just playing RB for Holland doesn't equate to top class. If Nigel de Jong didn't turn into a holding player then I don't think JH would be playing there. Instead, I prefer to see him as a CB and can't wait to see him and Jags there together as both can probably learn from each other whilst creating a great partnership.

 

Top level of domestic football? I disagree but if you want to go there then how have we fared against the top teams these past two seasons, since that is when the current defence have played with each other mostly? I don't have a good memory playing against what you call the best but maybe my memory is poor.

 

As for disharmony. It is DM's job to keep players happy, since he is the manager. He has often spoke of us being a team to break into the top four so along those lines we will also be in more competitions (Europe) and surely if we're good enough to be doing both of those things then we're good enough to compete in the domestic cups, after all we did get to the F.A. Cup final last year and the League Cup Semi's the other year . . . with this in mind surely a larger squad is needed thus competition encouraged and then disharmony kept at bay by the manager?

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Heitinga has played DM before, yes. Mainly for Ajax, if not exclusively I think.

 

Okay, so Chelsea at the back: Bosingwa, Ferreira, Beletti, Cole, Zhirkov(as cover), Terry, Carvahlo, Alex, Ivanovic

 

Arsenal: Sagna, Eboue, Vermaelen, Gallas, Clichy, Gibbs, G. Hoyte, Djourou, Senderos, Song, Silverstre, Traore

 

Liverpool: Johnson, Degen, Kyrgiakos, Carragher, Skrtel, Agger, Ayala, Aurelio, Dessena, Insua, Darby, Kelly

 

 

Right. So. All I'm saying that if DM is telling the truth about wanting to break the top four then we could do with a bigger defensive line.

 

As for Jags would get into most teams and all of that other stuff...

 

The fact is that none of our players have been tested at the top level and if they have then haven't come out looking too good. So no, by performance, which is surely how football players should be judged, the fact is that they are not top class defenders. Of course I want them all to prove that they are and I am a fan who doesn't like getting on players backs but the fact is that I'm just not sure that they're good enough to stretch for a season.

 

 

lol bit of a contradiction there!

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I ment about getting him as a def mid, but thanks tough :)

 

Hmmm, Jags against Villa when playing for England. I seem to remember the Spaniard making him look a joke, actually.

 

Don't be daft, the Villa goal was his fault, yes.

But he's only the best striker in the world. (No, not one of the best, he's miles ahead of torres or anyone else imo). But it was a good game alround for Jagielka imo.

 

our defense has been tested against world class teams, we got points against EVERY one of the 4 teams. we even won against liverpool and Manchester united and should have won against chelsea an arsenal, that's just my opinion though.

(and what would have happened without our injuries?)

 

if defense is our biggest issue, i'm very happy about the squad :)

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lol bit of a contradiction there!

 

lol well spotted. Getting my own point confused there. What I'm trying to get at is that they haven't been tested on a consistent basis.

 

 

Don't be daft, the Villa goal was his fault, yes.

But he's only the best striker in the world. (No, not one of the best, he's miles ahead of torres or anyone else imo). But it was a good game alround for Jagielka imo.

 

our defense has been tested against world class teams, we got points against EVERY one of the 4 teams. we even won against liverpool and Manchester united and should have won against chelsea an arsenal, that's just my opinion though.

(and what would have happened without our injuries?)

 

if defense is our biggest issue, i'm very happy about the squad :)

 

So Jags did well enough for 45 minutes. I was as happy as anyone about it and think that he is brilliant for us but the top level of football? I don't know, until he consistently plays against the quality of Villa in something like the Champions League then I think the idea of him being a top level defender is a weak one. Actually, now that I think about it he will play against some good forwards when we play against Benfica and (hopefully) when we progress so I'll guess we'll see.

 

We beat Liverpool and Manchester United in the league last year and the year before?

 

Should have won means very little, sadly. If a goal has been scored it is mostly thanks to poor defending so not having enough defenders is never going to help.

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lol well spotted. Getting my own point confused there. What I'm trying to get at is that they haven't been tested on a consistent basis.

 

 

 

 

So Jags did well enough for 45 minutes. I was as happy as anyone about it and think that he is brilliant for us but the top level of football? I don't know, until he consistently plays against the quality of Villa in something like the Champions League then I think the idea of him being a top level defender is a weak one. Actually, now that I think about it he will play against some good forwards when we play against Benfica and (hopefully) when we progress so I'll guess we'll see.

 

We beat Liverpool and Manchester United in the league last year and the year before?

 

Should have won means very little, sadly. If a goal has been scored it is mostly thanks to poor defending so not having enough defenders is never going to help.

 

What are you talking about? The English Prem is the BEST LEAGUE in the world an thats a fact, Every player wants to play here, an Jags has played some of the best strikers in the world, Rooney,Drogba,Torres to name a few. Don't think Jags will be fit to play against Benfica.

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i'm sure Hiets said on Radio city that his fav postion was CB not DM, he said he can play CB RB an MF if needed but his fav postion is CB an wants to prove himself there.

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i'm sure Hiets said on Radio city that his fav postion was CB not DM, he said he can play CB RB an MF if needed but his fav postion is CB an wants to prove himself there.

 

He said his favoured position is center back or center midfield, I've watched Hets from the Ajax days and we don't want him in our midfield. But neither do I want Neville there, but that's Moyes for you.

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What are you talking about? The English Prem is the BEST LEAGUE in the world an thats a fact, Every player wants to play here, an Jags has played some of the best strikers in the world, Rooney,Drogba,Torres to name a few. Don't think Jags will be fit to play against Benfica.

 

Why are the best players in the world playing in Spain, and a couple in Italy. Certainly, a higher percentage of the very best are in those leagues.

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you have about 4 or 5 teams in each of those leagues that are class and the rest are scrappy most of the time from what ive seen. in the prem you have the big 4 and then another 6 clubs who could finish 5th. higher standard of teams all round

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Why are the best players in the world playing in Spain, and a couple in Italy. Certainly, a higher percentage of the very best are in those leagues.

Ronaldo whos the best player in the world, left England because he won EVERYTHING with Man U an wanted a change an wanted to play for his favourite club.

 

Once City get in the Champs leagues, a few like Messi an co could well be in England.

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hahahahahaha seriously, Messi at City? Laughable. Sorry, it is just laughable. By that point City will probably be the only team with the resources left to even afford to bid for him. Football works in cycles and England has had its time for the past few years now; another league will take the mantle up next and it might not be a while until we see such a high standard of player in the Prem IMO

 

C. Ronaldo left not just because he won everything with Utd - surely he could see that the best football was beginning to get played in Spain once more. When comparing the games between the lower placed teams in Spain to the relative games here all I can say is that it's like watching football compared to Rugby - the latter is the lower placed Prem games and they are UGLY.

 

As for teams who can finish top 5 in the Prem. Judging by how they've been performing for the past few seasons when English football has been on a high the fact is that none of them play anything other than scrappy football with the odd -- sorry, very odd - spot of good play. Even last year Man Utd were playing poor football and they won the bloody thing just to show how bad it was!

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Ronaldo whos the best player in the world, left England because he won EVERYTHING with Man U an wanted a change an wanted to play for his favourite club.

 

Once City get in the Champs leagues, a few like Messi an co could well be in England.

 

Messi will never step foot upon British shores, unless it's a friendly or an shopping spree. In Spain the tax rebate is 30%, compare that to Britain 50% then you'll quickly realise why Ronaldo left sharpish.

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Messi will never step foot upon British shores, unless it's a friendly or an shopping spree. In Spain the tax rebate is 30%, compare that to Britain 50% then you'll quickly realise why Ronaldo left sharpish.

 

That's the most important truth written regarding this. True, England has had the best league in the europe for a long time, but this tax thing could very well change that. If other spanish teams start to get more revenues, and can spend more, you can very well see a move from players away from the premier league and to la liga.

 

And by the way, the taxes aren't 30%, it's some sort of new provision where they pay 30% or 40% for the first 5 years, then it goes back to 50%.

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That's the most important truth written regarding this....

 

 

....the taxes aren't 30%, it's some sort of new provision where they pay 30% or 40% for the first 5 years, then it goes back to 50%.

Isn't that a bit contradictory :huh: ?

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I'm not a fan of attaching football players to the money-driven tag. If we go there then the game becomes irrelevant to follow IMO. But then, have you already said that in another thread, CaptainFerguson10, that we should boycott the games to give the board a kick in the back-side?

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tax rate means nothing, the players get paid a set NET RATE by the teams, when the tax rate goes to 50% the players get the same NET pay, the club just pays them more.so for exam....a player getting 5.5mil on 40% tax will get paid 6mil on the 50% off the club. so he end up with the same net figure(that was an example the maths arn't correct.)

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tax rate means nothing, the players get paid a set NET RATE by the teams, when the tax rate goes to 50% the players get the same NET pay, the club just pays them more...

 

That sounds incredibly unlikely to me; any evidence to back it up?

Never heard of any company or organisation ever doing such a thing. Individual contracts may be agreed taking into account the rates of the time but (for example) in 1974 the top rate went up to 83%. Any club/company contractually obliged to guarantee a net income under those circumstances would very quickly go out of business.

Any club who work like that would be barking mad in the current financial situation.

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That sounds incredibly unlikely to me; any evidence to back it up?

Never heard of any company or organisation ever doing such a thing. Individual contracts may be agreed taking into account the rates of the time but (for example) in 1974 the top rate went up to 83%. Any club/company contractually obliged to guarantee a net income under those circumstances would very quickly go out of business.

Any club who work like that would be barking mad in the current financial situation.

 

Was on SSN, when they disscuessed if the prem was losing it, they explaned about the tax rate. That the clubs pay the players more so they get the same Net pay

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Was on SSN, when they disscuessed if the prem was losing it, they explaned about the tax rate. That the clubs pay the players more so they get the same Net pay

 

SKy is barely creditable, but I do agree it's going to be harder now to attract the best talent because of the dreaded tax man.

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The clubs have to pay more, I agree with that. However, when Chelsea aren't willing to pay Kun £200k a week so that he can get half that in net terms then I think it's quite obvious which way the wind is blowing as far as Prem teams and money is concerned.

 

 

Also, now that Nev is injured which means that only Distin can cover LB can anybody maybe see where I was coming from with the lack of depth proposition?

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