Manager's Flaws

[nogs]

Arggghhh, that Fulham result has seriously p***ed me off, time for a proper moan. Now I'm a big fan of Moyes, I love what he has done for the club and the passion and determination to succeed he has instilled in the club. But he still has a tendency to show he he is far from the finished article for a top-class manager by making some infuriatingly bad decisions, and today there were, in my opinion, a catalogue of them:

 

1. Bilyaletdinov and Heitinga on the bench. Why? I was annoyed by the team selection even before we kicked off. If we'd won all three league games so far and the team was pleying right on top of its game, you could justify leaving £15m of new signings (plus another £15m in Fellaini on the bench). But we've started really poorly, and I don't think a last minute scraped win via a penalty at home versus Wigan qualifies for 'don't change a winning team'-type cliches. In the first three games, we've looked like a team crying out to be freshened up. Instead, Moyes left it as it was, and we lost. Enough said.

 

2. Tactics. Second half, we just didn't seem to have any. Hodgson is a skilled tactician and a good motivator and Fulham were a different team after the break. We just didn't respond. At times Moyes' preferred 4-5-1 looks incredibly one-dimensional and there is apparently no plan b. Which is worrying when we haven't kept a clean sheet in four matches and didn't ever look like scoring second half, eventually resorting to the aimless long ball as desperation set in. Moyes has gotta do much, much better in my opinion to build flexibility into the side and be able to respond to things going against us on the pitch. He relies far too much on guts and determination to haul us back - if that fails, we're screwed.

 

3. Substitutions. Following on from the one-dimensional tactics were the choice of substitutions, which really wound me up. We've signed Heitinga as a full-back, right? So when Neville got injured, why did he come on instead of, say, Fellaini, who last time I looked was a centre mid player we paid £15m for? What exactly is Moyes' obsession with playing defenders at centre mid anyway? It didn't work with Jags, it's still not Neville's best position and I'm pretty damn sure it's not Heitinga's either. And then to throw Fellaini on for Jo was just bizarre - I know we did fantastic with no fit strikers available last season, but let's face facts, neither Fellaini or Cahill are centre forwards, so why purposefully choose to go with no natural strikers for a quarter of the match when you're still drawing 1-1? Negativity, or just naivety? And that got exposed as a really poor decision when we went 2-1 down and Moyes had to throw Yakubu on to chase the game. Suddenly Cahill is playing wide right, a complete and utter waste, with Fellaini pushing up front, and with a full-back in centre mid, we had no balance in midfield whatsoever and predicatbly resorted to hoofing pointless long balls from the back.

 

Rant over, anyway. Long way to go, I know, and I for one won't be getting carried away, but it's another atrocious start to the season. Moyes could do with learning from some of these mistakes, and fast.

[Romey 1878]

You have said everything that I'm feeling right now mate. I'm so angry it's untrue.

[jamiemaher85]

Good post, though one point I will comment on, about leaving Bily and Heit on the bench. I can understand why that was done, neither has had much time with the team at all, mainly due to Internationl duty. I know that Heit has only had 1 training session with the club so far, Bily has not had many more. So on that point I can understand why he left them both on the bench. As for Felli being left out, i agree with doing that TBH. He played well coming off the bench last time but has unimpressed in games he has started. Lets let him build up a rythem from off the bench and then let good performances build from there.

 

As for everything else I totally agree. The substitions he made today where bizarre. Taking off Jo for Felli at that point in the game made no sense what-so-ever.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Arggghhh, that Fulham result has seriously p***ed me off, time for a proper moan. Now I'm a big fan of Moyes, I love what he has done for the club and the passion and determination to succeed he has instilled in the club. But he still has a tendency to show he he is far from the finished article for a top-class manager by making some infuriatingly bad decisions, and today there were, in my opinion, a catalogue of them:

 

1. Bilyaletdinov and Heitinga on the bench. Why? I was annoyed by the team selection even before we kicked off. If we'd won all three league games so far and the team was pleying right on top of its game, you could justify leaving £15m of new signings (plus another £15m in Fellaini on the bench). But we've started really poorly, and I don't think a last minute scraped win via a penalty at home versus Wigan qualifies for 'don't change a winning team'-type cliches. In the first three games, we've looked like a team crying out to be freshened up. Instead, Moyes left it as it was, and we lost. Enough said.

 

 

 

2. Tactics. Second half, we just didn't seem to have any. Hodgson is a skilled tactician and a good motivator and Fulham were a different team after the break. We just didn't respond. At times Moyes' preferred 4-5-1 looks incredibly one-dimensional and there is apparently no plan b. Which is worrying when we haven't kept a clean sheet in four matches and didn't ever look like scoring second half, eventually resorting to the aimless long ball as desperation set in. Moyes has gotta do much, much better in my opinion to build flexibility into the side and be able to respond to things going against us on the pitch. He relies far too much on guts and determination to haul us back - if that fails, we're screwed.

 

3. Substitutions. Following on from the one-dimensional tactics were the choice of substitutions, which really wound me up. We've signed Heitinga as a full-back, right? So when Neville got injured, why did he come on instead of, say, Fellaini, who last time I looked was a centre mid player we paid £15m for? What exactly is Moyes' obsession with playing defenders at centre mid anyway? It didn't work with Jags, it's still not Neville's best position and I'm pretty damn sure it's not Heitinga's either. And then to throw Fellaini on for Jo was just bizarre - I know we did fantastic with no fit strikers available last season, but let's face facts, neither Fellaini or Cahill are centre forwards, so why purposefully choose to go with no natural strikers for a quarter of the match when you're still drawing 1-1? Negativity, or just naivety? And that got exposed as a really poor decision when we went 2-1 down and Moyes had to throw Yakubu on to chase the game. Suddenly Cahill is playing wide right, a complete and utter waste, with Fellaini pushing up front, and with a full-back in centre mid, we had no balance in midfield whatsoever and predicatbly resorted to hoofing pointless long balls from the back.

 

Rant over, anyway. Long way to go, I know, and I for one won't be getting carried away, but it's another atrocious start to the season. Moyes could do with learning from some of these mistakes, and fast.

 

 

The first point I would say was down to the fact that they have only just signed and havent had time to bed in yetand who have no Prem experience,especially Johnny H who has only had 1 training session. I thought it showed when he came on it looked like he was a little startled by the pace of the game

 

I would say the first sub for Neville was like for like, JH has even been quotted this week as saying that DM is his favoured position , but I tend to agree with everything else you said

[milky71]

always had a thing about moyes's use of subs and it is his biggest fault as wella s being tactically inept

[CaptainFerguson10]

You have said everything that I'm feeling right now mate. I'm so angry it's untrue.

 

I severely doubt your anger matches mine lad. Moyes negativity and lack of imagination has caused us three points today, sitting on a one goal lead was criminal, especially when Moyes is incapable of getting the team to HOLD the ball! Though I strongly disagreed with the starting line up (typical Moyes, cautious as ever), we played well and contained Fulham. Yet in the second half Moyes didn't react at all to Fulham tactical switches, and stood there praying to hold on.

 

What was worse though, was him subbing Jo for Felliani. WTH! At 1 - 1, take the flipping game to them and sub the God awful Osman. No, he takes off a forward for a midfielder, truly dire management.

 

I'm so angry and annoyed but not just because of today, because Moyes DOES NOT LEARN FROM HIS MISTAKES! Why Billy didn't come on for Heitinga, I still shake my head with great fury.

[milky71]

I severely doubt your anger matches mine lad. Moyes negativity and lack of imagination has caused us three points today, sitting on a one goal lead was criminal, especially when Moyes is incapable of getting the team to HOLD the ball! Though I strongly disagreed with the starting line up (typical Moyes, cautious as ever), we played well and contained Fulham. Yet in the second half Moyes didn't react at all to Fulham tactical switches, and stood there praying to hold on.

 

What was worse though, was him subbing Jo for Felliani. WTH! At 1 - 1, take the flipping game to them and sub the God awful Osman. No, he takes off a forward for a midfielder, truly dire management.

 

I'm so angry and annoyed but not just because of today, because Moyes DOES NOT LEARN FROM HIS MISTAKES! Why Billy didn't come on for Heitinga, I still shake my head with great fury.

 

presume you mean billy instead of heitinga but really should have been fellaini 15mill cm player and to be fair heitinga should have started instead of hibbo nothing against hibbo but he's not a dutch international

[CaptainFerguson10]

presume you mean billy instead of heitinga but really should have been fellaini 15mill cm player and to be fair heitinga should have started instead of hibbo nothing against hibbo but he's not a dutch international

 

Correct, sorry.

[milky71]

you are forgiven

[CaptainFerguson10]

Cheeky barstool!

[milky71]

you'll grow to love me

[CaptainFerguson10]

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_5557569,00.html

 

Funny how he doesn't take personal responsibility?

[marcopaulo]

link doesnt work...

[Blue 250]

Before we get too carried away with this one......if Bolton hadn't had a player sent off and they had beaten liverpool, that would have been 3 defeats out of 4, and they only lost 2 in total last season!....wouldn't their fans have been asking the same, AND THEY'VE GOT GERRARD AND TORRES!

 

Those players that started today are pretty much the team/ squad that got us 5th place and a cup final last season, and probably close to the one that won 2-0 at Fulham last season.....probably using similar tactics!

 

We were poor, we didn't get the rub of the green and Moyes played his part....BUT, WITH those flaws, over the last few seasons he's managed pretty well.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Before we get too carried away with this one......if Bolton hadn't had a player sent off and they had beaten liverpool, that would have been 3 defeats out of 4, and they only lost 2 in total last season!....wouldn't their fans have been asking the same, AND THEY'VE GOT GERRARD AND TORRES!

 

Those players that started today are pretty much the team/ squad that got us 5th place and a cup final last season, and probably close to the one that won 2-0 at Fulham last season.....probably using similar tactics!

 

We were poor, we didn't get the rub of the green and Moyes played his part....BUT, WITH those flaws, over the last few seasons he's managed pretty well.

 

 

 

Im not sure about the rub of the green bit , ok we were unlucky in the fact the first goal took a wicked deflection but we were totally outfought and outplayed on the day so from that perspective we got exactly what we deserved

 

 

I couldnt give a toss what the Shite do ( well actually thats a blatant lie, I love it when they get beat!) Im more concerned about our own performances

 

I agree the team Moyse put out should have been more than capable of seeing off Fulham. It was a poor performance especially in the second half when they stepped up a gear and we just didnt respond

 

Im not going to panic just yet because I think we will kick on around about mid October when the new signings have bedded in and we start getting players back from injury but I do think our chances of qualifying for European football through our league position next season are rapidly dissapearing by the day.

 

I know we started badly and still got there last season but that was more down to Villa's total capitulation than our own resurgence and there is far more competition this year from the likes of Spurs and City so I just cant see us repeating it

 

I would honestly be happy with top 10 this season, well not happy but I see us finishing anywhere between 8th and 12th

Edited September 13, 2009 by duncanmckenzieismagic

[Adpom]

Well i called the team he'd pick before he did an i said we lose 2-1 an we did.

 

Moyes is a great manager, for some reason at times he doesn't seem to be a great reader of the game at times. He made really odd subs, i thought Heit was AWFUL when he came on, even though i thought he'd start. Our attacking was pathetic, Fulham looked like they were gonna get 3 or 4, we looked like we wern't gonna score in a week. Why he took our only striker off an put Fellini on an then he put the Yak on, who's miles from fitness. should have gone 4-4-2 left Jo on took off osman, brought on Billy an so on an so fourth, then again hindsight is a great thing.

 

Tbh i wasn't suprised we lost, We never win there, 1 win in 10 now? An we looked like a time that expected to get beat an we did.

[flaminfox]

i think moyes should have brought on bilyaletdinov and put peinaar in the middle when nevile got injured

[foobiezw]

Firstly, you can't expect Moyes to chuck in new signings from the start, especially if they haven't had time to gel with the squad.

 

Distin was a special case (we had no other decent defenders).

 

That said, the subs chosen by Moyes are what screwed us over in the end.

 

I really would've liked to see what Billy could have done. Yak's just not there yet in terms of fitness and match practise in my mind.

[marcopaulo]

i think moyes should have brought on bilyaletdinov and put peinaar in the middle when nevile got injured

 

id have done the same but put osman in the centre cos he is not a winger and i can only assume that bily wasnt fit enough cos we wouldnt have osman doin fuck all out there...begs the question though if he wasnt fit why was he there...

[Romey 1878]

id have done the same but put osman in the centre cos he is not a winger and i can only assume that bily wasnt fit enough cos we wouldnt have osman doin fuck all out there...begs the question though if he wasnt fit why was he there...

 

 

Why wouldn't Bily have been fit? He's been playing games in Russia! I've got no problem with Heit and Bily not starting really, it's understandable, but to not bring an attacking player on when that's exactly what we needed is a disgrace. We were losing ffs, so we needed to TAKE A CHANCE.

[nogs]

Firstly, you can't expect Moyes to chuck in new signings from the start, especially if they haven't had time to gel with the squad.

 

Distin was a special case (we had no other decent defenders).

 

That said, the subs chosen by Moyes are what screwed us over in the end.

 

I really would've liked to see what Billy could have done. Yak's just not there yet in terms of fitness and match practise in my mind.

 

 

I personally think if yoyu spend £15m on two international players you've got to trust them to be good enough to be thrown into the first team from day one. They're not gonna learn about the pace of the Premiership on the training pitch, sooner they start playing games the sooner they gelo with the rest of the team. I just think its another sign of Moyes being over-cautious - Martin O'Neill threw three new defenders in from the start in a local derby and they won, but Moyes would never dream of taking a chance like that. In my opinion, the way we've been playing, Heitinga and Bily should have started just for the kick up the backside it would have given anyone. Instead, it's another three points down the drain from a team that is badly underperforming

[CaptainFerguson10]

Here are a list of the managers flaws:

 

He is too cautious by nature

He loves playing players out of position

He hates skill, preferring a miner like workman grit. And look what happened to them under Maggie T!?

He is too loyal to crap players, and too harsh against good ones. Remember Moyes giving Fernandes a rocket after the United game, qhilw Neville got praise!? I couldn't Adam and Eve it.

He is too scared, sorry negative in games when we has no valid reason to be.

He loves playing 4-5-1, even against teams we should hammer!

He subs are always too late, or make no sense what-so-ever!

His tactics are sometimes stone age, and hasn't the ability to adapt to anything outside his thinking.

 

Apart from that, he ain't half bad old Moyesie.

[Hafnia]

Is it that certain managers who have played the game have an affinity for certain types.... Hoddle loved his flair players and those who could pass the ball like himself, Moyes likes unfussy work horses and tends to heap praise on them, For example he wishes he had 11 Kevin Kilbanes!!! Having 1 was bad enough.

 

What he done for the club has been outstanding, that doesn't mean he is exempt from criticism. When was the last time we took a team apart in the prem and had a good old toe to toe we'll score more goals than you game. I don't think i've ever enjoyed going 1-0 up, cos you know we just try and nullify the other team rather than chase a 2nd. When we are behind we look so much better as we have to attack.

 

He needs to take learnings from this game.

[marcopaulo]

Why wouldn't Bily have been fit? He's been playing games in Russia! I've got no problem with Heit and Bily not starting really, it's understandable, but to not bring an attacking player on when that's exactly what we needed is a disgrace. We were losing ffs, so we needed to TAKE A CHANCE.

 

thats what im sayin the only reason i could think not to put bily on when we needed someone like him is because he wasnt fit but as you say he must have been so the reasoning behind not involving him is beyond me

[craigb]

Fulham looked like they were gonna get 3 or 4, we looked like we wern't gonna score in a week. Why he took our only striker off an put Fellini on an then he put the Yak on, who's miles from fitness. should have gone 4-4-2 left Jo on took off osman, brought on Billy an so on an so fourth, then again hindsight is a great thing.

 

It shouldnt come down to hindsight mate, as we all knew at teh time of the subs that they were the wrong ones

 

id have done the same but put osman in the centre cos he is not a winger and i can only assume that bily wasnt fit enough cos we wouldnt have osman doin fuck all out there...begs the question though if he wasnt fit why was he there...

 

bily is fit, hes had quite a few games in russia, i honestly don't know why he never give him some time on the pitch, yak is no were near fit yet, it was just plain silly bringing him on when we needed 11 players on the pitch playing there socks off.. I was really frustrated yesterday, as liek everyone else, those 3 points were ares, and through silly tactics and substitutions, and not reacting to fulham upping there game, its now them who are 10th in the league...

[Blue4Ever]

Even though I love the man he has quite a few flaws. 1 Thing I cannot understand about moyes is his team selection and tactics please tell me what you see in Hibbert and Osman. He has got to be the most negative manager in the league, 1 thing I would put my house on is that if we had every midfielder in the squad fit, he would still manage to play Neville center midfield, Heitenga was on that pitch for say 30 minutes, he's only been had 1 days training with the team and he had more tackles and a better pass completion than Neville in the whole game, it seems people on here are fucking nuts at times, sorry Mark you have a good understanding of the game mate but to say Neville played well yesterday you must have got his name mixed up with someone else. He was diabolical, running round like a headless chicken, yet again we get outclassed by a midfield paring of murphy and etuhu, he was just throwing himself into tackles and getting nowhere near the man and he even give a penalty away needlessly. There is no way if we had say a Wenger that he would be anywhere near them players for a midfield place.

 

ARTETA

FELLAINI

CAHILL

HEITENGA

PIENAAR

RODWELL

 

Another thing, his subs are so predictable, 15 minutes before the game ends is usually his first sub. Whats all that about moyes?

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

I personally think if yoyu spend £15m on two international players you've got to trust them to be good enough to be thrown into the first team from day one. They're not gonna learn about the pace of the Premiership on the training pitch, sooner they start playing games the sooner they gelo with the rest of the team. I just think its another sign of Moyes being over-cautious - Martin O'Neill threw three new defenders in from the start in a local derby and they won, but Moyes would never dream of taking a chance like that. In my opinion, the way we've been playing, Heitinga and Bily should have started just for the kick up the backside it would have given anyone. Instead, it's another three points down the drain from a team that is badly underperforming

 

 

All 3 were British players with a wealth of experience in the Premiership

Hardly the same is it?

 

I thought Heitings looked terrible when he came on so Im glad he didnt start, he needs time settle in, which he isnt going to get now due to Nevs injury

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Here are a list of the managers flaws:

 

He is too cautious by nature

He loves playing players out of position

He hates skill, preferring a miner like workman grit. And look what happened to them under Maggie T!?

He is too loyal to crap players, and too harsh against good ones. Remember Moyes giving Fernandes a rocket after the United game, qhilw Neville got praise!? I couldn't Adam and Eve it.

He is too scared, sorry negative in games when we has no valid reason to be.

He loves playing 4-5-1, even against teams we should hammer!

He subs are always too late, or make no sense what-so-ever!

His tactics are sometimes stone age, and hasn't the ability to adapt to anything outside his thinking.

 

Apart from that, he ain't half bad old Moyesie.

 

 

 

So to sum up he doesnt know the difference between a good player and a bad one, he is clueless tactically, his man management is piss poor and he hates skillful players

 

What are his good points then?

 

lol We should sack him now!

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Even though I love the man he has quite a few flaws. 1 Thing I cannot understand about moyes is his team selection and tactics please tell me what you see in Hibbert and Osman. He has got to be the most negative manager in the league, 1 thing I would put my house on is that if we had every midfielder in the squad fit, he would still manage to play Neville center midfield, Heitenga was on that pitch for say 30 minutes, he's only been had 1 days training with the team and he had more tackles and a better pass completion than Neville in the whole game, it seems people on here are fucking nuts at times, sorry Mark you have a good understanding of the game mate but to say Neville played well yesterday you must have got his name mixed up with someone else. He was diabolical, running round like a headless chicken, yet again we get outclassed by a midfield paring of murphy and etuhu, he was just throwing himself into tackles and getting nowhere near the man and he even give a penalty away needlessly. There is no way if we had say a Wenger that he would be anywhere near them players for a midfield place.

 

ARTETA

FELLAINI

CAHILL

HEITENGA

PIENAAR

RODWELL

 

Another thing, his subs are so predictable, 15 minutes before the game ends is usually his first sub. Whats all that about moyes?

 

 

Cant beleive we gave a penalty away while I was having a piss Did they score from it?

[CaptainFerguson10]

What are his good points then?

 

He is hard working

He is determined

Loyal to the club

Doesn't take crap from anyone

Has a decent record with young players

Can spot a very good bargain ie Arteta, Bent, Pienaar and Cahill

Excellent at installing belief and togetherness to the players, as a unit.

 

So there you Duncan, hope that helps lol.