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MikeO

Elstone's Account Of The Window

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Interesting explanation/web of lies or somewhere in between depending on your point of view...

http://www.evertonfc.com/news/a-night-out-in-hamburg.html

 

...it started well before the summer. We met as a Board, including the Manager, in late March and discussed and agreed squad needs and transfer and wages budgets. Post Cup final, the Chairman and I began to follow up on the Managers targets. As was widely reported in the press, this included Senderos, Delph, Elm and Naughton and much work was progressed on each player. Every deal includes a player, an agent, a selling club and inevitably some competition and, as a result, and without an unrestricted cheque book, each deal is difficult, protracted and has a high propensity to unravel. For various differing reasons, thats what happened on each of those prospects.

 

Perhaps most frustrating was Naughton. We reached written agreement with Sheffield United, who also confirmed as such on their website and we also agreed a deal with the agent who told us the player wanted to come to Everton. Twelve hours later the player had changed his mind about the Club of his dreams and he opted to join Spurs after they declared an interest. Of course, we didnt take it lying down and spent the best part of a week fighting for the player. Sadly, all that work was wasted.

At this point, we were still working and negotiating within our original budget which meant we were still determined to fend off Manchester City and retain Lescott. What became very clear was that City were determined to land the player and were prepared to do whatever it took to get him to Eastlands.

 

By early August, despite our efforts to keep Lescott - what clinched it of course was the player stating in writing and emphatically that he wanted to go, we reluctantly agreed to talk. Press speculation on the initial bids, were reasonably accurate the media is either very good at guessing or they have their sources but we knew City wanted their man and they have very deep pockets and, accordingly, as you would expect, we sought to take advantage of this. Over the course of three to four very intensive days, our Chairman drove up the final fee substantially.

Of course, concluding on Lescott, changed the Managers needs and his spending power. Manager, Chairman, scouts, Club Secretary, Finance Director and CEO became totally and exclusively focused on replacing Lescott and strengthening the squad. What ensued was an intensive and demanding fortnight which was always going to run down to the wire. It did!

Bilyaletdinov was followed by Distin, then Heitinga and now, of course, Lucas Neill and, as we all know, time will tell. We dont play on paper but everyone here is optimistic; everyone is excited. Trips to Hamburg, final day planes from Amsterdam and hours and hours of midnight oil negotiation will bear fruit, Im sure!

Speaking on the Daily Post website last week, I was challenged about how much weve spent. Are we continuing to support the Manager to the limit? Are we looking to build on the successes of 2008/09? The answer is absolutely yes. The answer is that the Lescott proceeds, after the sell-on fee payable to Wolves, and after funding the not unsubstantial agents fees, transfer levies, solidarity payments and financing charges, and after picking up a significant increase in our player wage costs has been more than fully spent. In fact theres been an overspend by more than the original budget we set when we were trying to sign Naughton, Delph, Elm and others, in June.

 

All our efforts have been directed at maximising our investment in players and negotiating skilfully to get the best talent at the best price. Current Dutch, Russian and now, Australian internationals along with a proven and experienced Premier League centre half have replaced yes, an England centre half but also Van der Meyde, Castillo, Jacobsen and Nuno. It does feel like a summer well spent.

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End of the day you can't deny the mistakes made during this summer, but when you consider that we went into the window trying to buy Senderos, Elm, Delph and Naughton and ended it with Distin, Bilyaletinov, Heitinga and Niell you have to be thankful that we acted late rather than acting early. I would prefer each of the players that we have now over each of the players originally mooted.

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Pure cobblers from the man, but not surprised some think it's valid literature. Elstone said we over-spent, ok then how much by? A lot of smoke and mirrors, but like the Labour government there's no substance!

The increase in the wage bill will have taken a chunk out of Lescott money and the couple of quid we had before the lescott money. The people we have brought in have altered the wage structure within the club and that will have been taken out of what mney we had to spend on players.

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Pure cobblers from the man, but not surprised some think it's valid literature. Elstone said we over-spent, ok then how much by? A lot of smoke and mirrors, but like the Labour government there's no substance!

 

Staying with the political reference, this is the typical opposition response to anything.

 

If he says nothing you moan that he's not talking to the fans.

 

If he explains it then you say he's not giving you figures. He's running a fucking company here! He doesn't give away figures like that. It's a legal minefield full of confidentiality and gentleman's agreements.

 

He's a CEO of a major company and you're just a minor consumer. I'm amazed he's said anything tbh, I thought that after they said nothing during the summer they weren't going to say anything but I'm pleasantly suprised.

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The increase in the wage bill will have taken a chunk out of Lescott money and the couple of quid we had before the lescott money. The people we have brought in have altered the wage structure within the club and that will have been taken out of what mney we had to spend on players.

 

With ADVM, Valente and Lescott going, the wage bill has marginally increased as the three brought in I imagine are not on much more than the three departed. So that still doesn't give Elstone creditability about the budget.

 

Staying with the political reference, this is the typical opposition response to anything.

 

If he says nothing you moan that he's not talking to the fans.

 

If he explains it then you say he's not giving you figures. He's running a fucking company here! He doesn't give away figures like that. It's a legal minefield full of confidentiality and gentleman's agreements.

 

He's a CEO of a major company and you're just a minor consumer. I'm amazed he's said anything tbh, I thought that after they said nothing during the summer they weren't going to say anything but I'm pleasantly suprised.

 

Oh please, ok then if you have the answers then explain the summer events to us all at Everton? And there is a major difference between positive interaction with fans, and a letter that answers nothing.

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I never said I had all the answers. I said in a slightly more polite tone to grow up and stop expecting him to detail the summer window minute-by-minute and figure-by-figure.

 

The wage budget needs to be forecasted for. We don't make enough to fully cover it without the TV money, so that's transfer money going. Signing on fees, Agent's fees, transfer tax etc. all account for more than the layman knows.

 

It's like when a club buys a player one year for £20m for then sells 3 years later for £25m and people honestly think they made a "profit"

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With ADVM, Valente and Lescott going, the wage bill has marginally increased as the three brought in I imagine are not on much more than the three departed. So that still doesn't give Elstone creditability about the budget.

 

 

In fairness the people brought in are on a much bigger wage than previous players that have just left.

 

VDM was on 25k I believe. As was Nuno, and I think J.Lo was on 35k. Heitinga has come in on at least 40k, Distin is roughly 35k, Neill is 40k if press is to be believed and Bily is on 35k.

 

So we have taken around 85k off the wage bill which roughly equates to just under £4.5m in a year. The new players will equate to roughly £150k a week which is just under £8m a year. So that's an increase of around £3.5m, there will then be signing on fee's for the new players and the "loyalty" bonus paid to J.Lo (what a joke that is!)

 

You asked for figures and from a bit of looking around and basic math skills that is what I can deduce. £3.5m may not seem an awfuly large amount but for a club of our financial situation it is.

 

The figures for the players I have mentioned are rough figures based on numerous reports. The fact is that we began the summer with a small amount of players on salaries pushing past £35k, now a large majority of the squad are on thos figures. Pienaar and possibly Rodwell will also probebly be offered new big money contracts soon as well.

 

Anyone know what kind of figures players would get for a loyalty bonus? I know that it's City so there landscape is very different but Dunne got a £2m loyalty bonus! (one source stated £6m, but I cant see that being true!)

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It's there for all to see, a grand old club with far more history, success, fan base than all of the other clubs around us being snapped up is waiting patiently for a sugar daddy to come in and rescue it. We are playing minor league in the transfer market and all the other teams and players know it, we couldn't secure Elm and Senderos (fee agreed - personal terms)- hardly blue chip players. It's amazing that Moyes has secured the players that he has.

 

We are never going to be run as a profitable business if we are to buy the types of players that will see us break the top 4 - so the choice is:

 

A: Stay as we are, Cheap and cheerful, hope for a few cup runs, maybe top 8 and sell the likes of Rodwell to Man U and Chelski to keep a transfer float once the player becomes disillusioned with not playing champions league.

 

B: Get the club sold to someone who has money to throw into it.. someone who can fund a transfer war chest which will satisfy the managers and top players ambitions. Break into the top 4 and start generating the type of income that has seen the current top 4 establish themselves as Champions league contenders year in, year out.

 

Does anyone actually believe someone with more money and financial ambition than Blue Bill has never sounded Mr Kenwright out?

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Zed    1

Looking at the whole transfer window as a whole and the other teams around/above us, with the obvious exception of man city and or spurs, did anyone else spend a fortune???????????

 

Man u NO

Arsenal NO

Chelsea NO

Liverpool NO

 

Before anyone says I dont care about anyone else, its a very good indication that no ones flush with cash, even the teams that you would expect to be

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Looking at the whole transfer window as a whole and the other teams around/above us, with the obvious exception of man city and or spurs, did anyone else spend a fortune???????????

 

Man u NO

Arsenal NO

Chelsea NO

Liverpool NO

 

Before anyone says I dont care about anyone else, its a very good indication that no ones flush with cash, even the teams that you would expect to be

 

 

The Shite spent £40M and Man Utd and Chelsea both spent nearly £20M so I would say they did spend a fortune!

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The Shite spent £40M and Man Utd and Chelsea both spent nearly £20M so I would say they did spend a fortune!

Irrelevant...it's the net spend that counts.

 

Liverpool brought in £35m, ManU are plainly well in profit if you include the ladyboy sale and Chelsea (for them) spent petty cash.

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im not oneto praise the board at all, but this summer, with our finances, they've done good.

 

Elstone told us when he got the job he would keep in touch with the fans, and he has. Been a fan of his from day one, and i hope he's still around when bill finally sells up. Hes a good guy, and hes trying very very hard. If anybody wants to question him just remember wyness and birch.

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I think it's not the case of who spent how much - it's a case of how much did they need to spend to strengthen their squad adequately.

 

 

Man u NO - Sold Ronaldo and lost Tevez, bought in Valencia, Owen, Obertan and already have a massive squad - 52 players per position at least with Hargreaves coming back.

 

Arsenal NO - Sold Adebuyor and Toure - bought in Vermaelen and have an outragous number of youngsters coming through

 

Chelsea NO - big squad already, borught in zhirkov - £18m

 

Liverpool NO - lost alonso - brought in Johnson and Aquilaini to add to an already decent sized squad.

 

 

 

Everton: Struggled through last season having to play the same players with little rest. Injuries meant threadbare squad relied on youngsters with little or no premier league expreience sitting on the bench. Lost Valente, Castillo, Jacobsen and Lescott as senior players. Brought in: Billy, Heitinga, Distin and under the realisation that we are still threadbare Lucas Neill.

 

Yes we have strengthened in quality a little maybe, the damning fact remains is that our nearest rivals such as Villa and Spurs have strengthened what were already stronger squads than us.

 

If we are to continue to look to improve we need to get strength in depth. We are always 2 injuries away from a disaster - our first 11 is great, how often do the first 11 stay fit?

 

I applaud those who continue to look at the glass being half full - I wish I could. Fact is history has a way of repeating itself at this club. The only thing that keeps it positive is the work that Moyes and the boys do. We are being let down at a higher level.

 

Burning question: "How much is Everton up for sale for?"

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Everton: Struggled through last season having to play the same players with little rest. Injuries meant threadbare squad relied on youngsters with little or no premier league expreience sitting on the bench. Lost Valente, Castillo, Jacobsen and Lescott as senior players. Brought in: Billy, Heitinga, Distin and under the realisation that we are still threadbare Lucas Neill.

 

Yes we have strengthened in quality a little maybe, the damning fact remains is that our nearest rivals such as Villa and Spurs have strengthened what were already stronger squads than us.

We finished 5th and made the FA Cup Final. Hardly strugeling is it?

 

Villa do not and did not have a stronger squad than us. Last season they only used 21 players, the least amount in the whole of the league. In the summer they have lost there captain (Laursen) and vice captain (Barry) and in fairness have not replaced with the same quality. We have more strength in depth than Villa do, and in fairness Liverpool do not have much depth to there squad. If, like us, they lost the spine of the team (Torres, Gerrard, Carragher) I just cant see who would step up for them.

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Sorry but this just smacks of a PR smokescreen for the more gullible.

 

We spent jack crap until we got the Lescott money in. FACT.

 

Naughton and Delph we were outbid on and Senderos we couldn't agree a fee on which suggests we didn't have the money required to land those targets. We didn't get as far as negotiating a fee for Elm as he decided we weren't attractive enough.

 

So we missed out on all of our original targets which left the sale of Lescott inevitable and a last minute re-think of targets having agreed to sell him.

Any business would have a contingency/risk plan for such events - where was ours?

 

I agree that ultimately we have ended up with better players than those he claims were on the original target list but again we have a start to the season that's already left us 6 points behind Villa and Spurs.

 

Personally, I don't think it's good enough for a large business such as Everton.

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Zed    1

I think it's not the case of who spent how much - it's a case of how much did they need to spend to strengthen their squad adequately.

 

 

Man u NO - Sold Ronaldo and lost Tevez, bought in Valencia, Owen, Obertan and already have a massive squad - 52 players per position at least with Hargreaves coming back.

 

Arsenal NO - Sold Adebuyor and Toure - bought in Vermaelen and have an outragous number of youngsters coming through

 

Chelsea NO - big squad already, borught in zhirkov - £18m

 

Liverpool NO - lost alonso - brought in Johnson and Aquilaini to add to an already decent sized squad.

 

 

 

Everton: Struggled through last season having to play the same players with little rest. Injuries meant threadbare squad relied on youngsters with little or no premier league expreience sitting on the bench. Lost Valente, Castillo, Jacobsen and Lescott as senior players. Brought in: Billy, Heitinga, Distin and under the realisation that we are still threadbare Lucas Neill.

 

Yes we have strengthened in quality a little maybe, the damning fact remains is that our nearest rivals such as Villa and Spurs have strengthened what were already stronger squads than us.

 

If we are to continue to look to improve we need to get strength in depth. We are always 2 injuries away from a disaster - our first 11 is great, how often do the first 11 stay fit?

 

I applaud those who continue to look at the glass being half full - I wish I could. Fact is history has a way of repeating itself at this club. The only thing that keeps it positive is the work that Moyes and the boys do. We are being let down at a higher level.

 

Burning question: "How much is Everton up for sale for?"

 

Unfortunately I think Evertonians have a habit of putting themselves and the club down.

 

Do these other teams really have a big squad??? If man u get a few injuries they are depending on reserves and younsters like the rest of us. If liverpool loose someone like Torres or Gerrard, who replaces them. I think its all a bit of a myth and if only people believed in the team as much as they did in these idiological hurdles then maybe we will "stuggle through" this season and finish 5th again and be in a cup final, something I'm sure many other clubs are aspiring to

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We finished 5th and made the FA Cup Final. Hardly strugeling is it?

 

Villa do not and did not have a stronger squad than us. Last season they only used 21 players, the least amount in the whole of the league. In the summer they have lost there captain (Laursen) and vice captain (Barry) and in fairness have not replaced with the same quality. We have more strength in depth than Villa do, and in fairness Liverpool do not have much depth to there squad. If, like us, they lost the spine of the team (Torres, Gerrard, Carragher) I just cant see who would step up for them.

spot on. just an addition, the other big spending teams are very similar to last year, sunderland/spurs/city, and they acheived what last year? to be fair, this year Citeh and Spurs seem to be living up to the money spent but my point i suppose is this: money is nice, but whats wins games is team spirit and a good manager. i will be very surprised to see sunderland/spurs/city continuing their good streaks through out the season.

 

im sure this same arguement cropped up last year when we had a stuttering start....

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The quality of our squad is a hell of alot better this season then last, we lost 3 players who never played and brought in 3 STARTING xi players.

alright we sold Lescott and brought in 3 players, tbh i'd reather have the 3 players.

 

When Moyes joined Everton we had ZERO resale value on players, our squad was old an worthless, Now its not, Each player has a decent price tag now. If we have to sell a player to bring in a few more then so be it.

Lescott wanted to leave,not "because were a team going backwords" but because City offered him MASSIVE money. That the only reason he left, otherwise why would he of signed a 5 year deal last season?

 

The end of the day its a business and all business have to make money, by selling products, Everton brought Lescott for 4mil(i think) an sold him for 20mil more. With that money we brought in a class left winger and two very good defenders. We brought in far better an more polished players then we were going to an had.

 

Senderos vs Distan Distan has played constantly for the past 2-3 years without missing a game, Senderos hasn't played a game for over a year. Distan Wins

 

Elm vs Bily Elm is a unproven kid who spent 3 weeks in a Farrari dealership an brought a skoda(in my opinion) Bily is a proven international players with 20 odd caps for Russia. Billy wins

 

Naughton vs Heit Naughton is again a unprove kid, who can't get in the spurs team. Heits is a proven international player.

 

We may of started looking at good players, but we ended up with great players an all it cost was one GREEDY basterd.

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The quality of our squad is a hell of alot better this season then last, we lost 3 players who never played and brought in 3 STARTING xi players.

alright we sold Lescott and brought in 3 players, tbh i'd reather have the 3 players.

 

When Moyes joined Everton we had ZERO resale value on players, our squad was old an worthless, Now its not, Each player has a decent price tag now. If we have to sell a player to bring in a few more then so be it.

Lescott wanted to leave,not "because were a team going backwords" but because City offered him MASSIVE money. That the only reason he left, otherwise why would he of signed a 5 year deal last season?

 

The end of the day its a business and all business have to make money, by selling products, Everton brought Lescott for 4mil(i think) an sold him for 20mil more. With that money we brought in a class left winger and two very good defenders. We brought in far better an more polished players then we were going to an had.

 

Senderos vs Distan Distan has played constantly for the past 2-3 years without missing a game, Senderos hasn't played a game for over a year. Distan Wins

 

Elm vs Bily Elm is a unproven kid who spent 3 weeks in a Farrari dealership an brought a skoda(in my opinion) Bily is a proven international players with 20 odd caps for Russia. Billy wins

 

Naughton vs Heit Naughton is again a unprove kid, who can't get in the spurs team. Heits is a proven international player.

 

We may of started looking at good players, but we ended up with great players an all it cost was one GREEDY basterd.

 

Well said

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The quality of our squad is a hell of alot better this season then last, we lost 3 players who never played and brought in 3 STARTING xi players.

alright we sold Lescott and brought in 3 players, tbh i'd reather have the 3 players.

 

When Moyes joined Everton we had ZERO resale value on players, our squad was old an worthless, Now its not, Each player has a decent price tag now. If we have to sell a player to bring in a few more then so be it.

Lescott wanted to leave,not "because were a team going backwords" but because City offered him MASSIVE money. That the only reason he left, otherwise why would he of signed a 5 year deal last season?

 

The end of the day its a business and all business have to make money, by selling products, Everton brought Lescott for 4mil(i think) an sold him for 20mil more. With that money we brought in a class left winger and two very good defenders. We brought in far better an more polished players then we were going to an had.

 

Senderos vs Distan Distan has played constantly for the past 2-3 years without missing a game, Senderos hasn't played a game for over a year. Distan Wins

 

Elm vs Bily Elm is a unproven kid who spent 3 weeks in a Farrari dealership an brought a skoda(in my opinion) Bily is a proven international players with 20 odd caps for Russia. Billy wins

 

Naughton vs Heit Naughton is again a unprove kid, who can't get in the spurs team. Heits is a proven international player.

 

We may of started looking at good players, but we ended up with great players an all it cost was one GREEDY basterd.

 

Agree

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The wheeling and dealing Moyes has done has been outstanding without him where would we be, answer is the championship - does that mean this is what it will always be like? i.e selling proven quality to buy potential quality.

 

Yes is the answer unless things change at the top. Elstone who I admire is being honest to a point, the real message is - that despite enjoying a cup run, running a lean squad, finishing 5th we are skint.

 

Things are unlikely to get much better financially unless we are sold. Does anyone actually believe that we wanted to keep Lescott when we knew that there was a potential £20m big ones on the table? I for one think it was great business although it further reinforced the fact that all our players have a price, Moyes does not have the financial backing to be able to refuse such big offers, both from a business sense and a reinvestment sense. If we had a budget that didn't rely on selling our players it would be a different scenario.

 

I'm not a Bill Kenwright basher, I am a fan who sees that unless things change quickly then the massive potential that this team has is not going to be realised. We have the likes of Arteta and Rodwell who could form the best midfield partnership since Reid and Bracewell - indeed one of the best in the prem, and whilst we are under the current ownership these players are at risk of being sold.

 

4th place has been there for the taking the past 2 years and I now fear that we have missed the best opportunity to get into the lucrative group stages of the champions league and the added kudos in terms attraction that it brings. Would we have struggled for a buyer if we managed that? - highly unlikely, and the more clubs that are being bought makes me think that we are not going to be sold until the Kirby decision is announced which is when the most profit will realised for the current owners.

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Staying with the political reference, this is the typical opposition response to anything.

 

If he says nothing you moan that he's not talking to the fans.

 

If he explains it then you say he's not giving you figures. He's running a fucking company here! He doesn't give away figures like that. It's a legal minefield full of confidentiality and gentleman's agreements.

 

He's a CEO of a major company and you're just a minor consumer. I'm amazed he's said anything tbh, I thought that after they said nothing during the summer they weren't going to say anything but I'm pleasantly suprised.

This is the most intelligent and mature post that I have read on here since joining,spot on in all that he says.

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In fairness the people brought in are on a much bigger wage than previous players that have just left.

 

VDM was on 25k I believe. As was Nuno, and I think J.Lo was on 35k. Heitinga has come in on at least 40k, Distin is roughly 35k, Neill is 40k if press is to be believed and Bily is on 35k.

 

So we have taken around 85k off the wage bill which roughly equates to just under £4.5m in a year. The new players will equate to roughly £150k a week which is just under £8m a year. So that's an increase of around £3.5m, there will then be signing on fee's for the new players and the "loyalty" bonus paid to J.Lo (what a joke that is!)

 

You asked for figures and from a bit of looking around and basic math skills that is what I can deduce. £3.5m may not seem an awfuly large amount but for a club of our financial situation it is.

 

The figures for the players I have mentioned are rough figures based on numerous reports. The fact is that we began the summer with a small amount of players on salaries pushing past £35k, now a large majority of the squad are on thos figures. Pienaar and possibly Rodwell will also probebly be offered new big money contracts soon as well.

 

Anyone know what kind of figures players would get for a loyalty bonus? I know that it's City so there landscape is very different but Dunne got a £2m loyalty bonus! (one source stated £6m, but I cant see that being true!)

 

Can't argue with that.

 

Senderos vs Distan Distan has played constantly for the past 2-3 years without missing a game, Senderos hasn't played a game for over a year. Distan Wins

 

Elm vs Bily Elm is a unproven kid who spent 3 weeks in a Farrari dealership an brought a skoda(in my opinion) Bily is a proven international players with 20 odd caps for Russia. Billy wins

 

Naughton vs Heit Naughton is again a unprove kid, who can't get in the spurs team. Heits is a proven international player.

 

We may of started looking at good players, but we ended up with great players an all it cost was one GREEDY basterd.

 

We have done well with the players brought in, but just remember we had to sell before we could make moves to bring in replacements. Something which Elstone, you, and other's who are blissfully ignorant like to forget.

 

Yes is the answer unless things change at the top. Elstone who I admire is being honest to a point, the real message is - that despite enjoying a cup run, running a lean squad, finishing 5th we are skint.

 

Things are unlikely to get much better financially unless we are sold. Does anyone actually believe that we wanted to keep Lescott when we knew that there was a potential £20m big ones on the table? I for one think it was great business although it further reinforced the fact that all our players have a price, Moyes does not have the financial backing to be able to refuse such big offers, both from a business sense and a reinvestment sense. If we had a budget that didn't rely on selling our players it would be a different scenario.

 

I'm not a Bill Kenwright basher, I am a fan who sees that unless things change quickly then the massive potential that this team has is not going to be realised. We have the likes of Arteta and Rodwell who could form the best midfield partnership since Reid and Bracewell - indeed one of the best in the prem, and whilst we are under the current ownership these players are at risk of being sold.

 

Intelligent post, pity it will be lost on some!

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captain, stop being stupid! I called you stupid, hit the report button!

No one forgot we had to sell to buy, we know the situation! What the hell can we do about it? Sitting here slagging off the whole club wont change crap!

Unless we are sold, which kenwright wont do, it wont change!

 

Now stop bringing everything and everyone down!

Voicing your negativity on TT wont change crap! Maybe write into the papers or the club with your opinions, and let us know the response.

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Intelligent post, pity it will be lost on some!

 

 

I think alot of people on here are intelligent, sometimes intelligence can be overlooked when your heart is totally in full support of the club in every aspect, and it does smart a little when you see people being critical of someone who has put alot of energy into the club and been to an extent a figure head so I understand people support of Bill and Elstone.

 

Unfortunately history tells us that to make an assault on the top 4 you need to be extremely lucky with some bargain buys (arteta, lescott, jags) or you need some serious financial backing. We will need backing just to ensure we do not lose our top talent alone.

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captain, stop being stupid! I called you stupid, hit the report button!

No one forgot we had to sell to buy, we know the situation! What the hell can we do about it? Sitting here slagging off the whole club wont change crap!

Unless we are sold, which kenwright wont do, it wont change!

 

Now stop bringing everything and everyone down!

Voicing your negativity on TT wont change crap! Maybe write into the papers or the club with your opinions, and let us know the response.

 

Thank you for your constructive post, and no need for me to report it as it's self evident.

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Intelligent post, pity it will be lost on some!

The thing is though Captain, it won't be lost on people because it's a well thought out intelligent post.

Have a look at Hafnia's other posts, he broadly agrees with you but he gets intelligent replies even from people (such as myself apart from the intelligent bit :) ) who have a different point of view.

 

You make wild (unsubstantiated) claims as truth (and ignore anyone who invites you to back them up) and belittle anyone who disagrees with you.

You are your own worst enemy.....your points are lost on people because of the way you make them, not because we're all stupid.

 

P.S. You're plainly capable of sensible discussion evidenced by your contribution in the Diouf racism thread, so why not give it a go in other areas :) ?

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Everton: Struggled through last season having to play the same players with little rest. Injuries meant threadbare squad relied on youngsters with little or no premier league expreience sitting on the bench. Lost Valente, Castillo, Jacobsen and Lescott as senior players. Brought in: Billy, Heitinga, Distin and under the realisation that we are still threadbare Lucas Neill.

 

Yes we have strengthened in quality a little maybe, the damning fact remains is that our nearest rivals such as Villa and Spurs have strengthened what were already stronger squads than us.

 

Like Jamie said, Villa have definitely not improved squad strength. I understand this whole strength in depth argument, but at the end of the day you need a very good starting 11 to push you initialy through the glass ceiling, once you've got that far, you can then build through depth and Everton are doing that with the youngsters they're blooding and have bought.

One case study for you. Hull City. Have a huge squad, lots of numbers and a team full of...who? Nobodies in comparision. That sounds harsh i know, but they havent got the starting 11 to compete with most of the bottom half of the table, let alone higher. I'd much prefer our starting 11 to be a real team, quality, fighters and winners. Depth again, is a gradual process.

Someone mentioned on here, Liverpool are a great example - Starting 11, potentially league 'contenders', a few injuries in, they just dont look capable of beating the best.

Now look at Everton, our bench will now contain players who have been inand around the starting line-up for the last few years, whom are fully capable of slotting into the team if the situation arrises i.e. Osman.

Our starting 11 has improved, our bench has improved, our youth policy has improved...im happy. The rest of the world is moving forward and i understand the frustration of people with EFC's lack of money and inability to sell, but something is working. Whether Moyes is ACTUALLY making miracles work, im just hoping he stays and continues.

The soul of Everton remains, we havent been sugared with riches or spoilt with sponsorships...i dont want that!

We now have 4/5 players who have been or are international(ex) captains, 7/8 ex club captains in our traveling squads...thats impressive!!

We must be doing something right. And i'm going to stick my neck out and say, if we play like we have been this week, it really wouldnt suprise me if we scalp more than one of the big '4' at Goodison, and i'd be very happy!!

 

The quality of our squad is a hell of alot better this season then last, we lost 3 players who never played and brought in 3 STARTING xi players.

alright we sold Lescott and brought in 3 players, tbh i'd reather have the 3 players.

 

When Moyes joined Everton we had ZERO resale value on players, our squad was old an worthless, Now its not, Each player has a decent price tag now. If we have to sell a player to bring in a few more then so be it.

Lescott wanted to leave,not "because were a team going backwords" but because City offered him MASSIVE money. That the only reason he left, otherwise why would he of signed a 5 year deal last season?

 

The end of the day its a business and all business have to make money, by selling products, Everton brought Lescott for 4mil(i think) an sold him for 20mil more. With that money we brought in a class left winger and two very good defenders. We brought in far better an more polished players then we were going to an had.

 

Senderos vs Distan Distan has played constantly for the past 2-3 years without missing a game, Senderos hasn't played a game for over a year. Distan Wins

 

Elm vs Bily Elm is a unproven kid who spent 3 weeks in a Farrari dealership an brought a skoda(in my opinion) Bily is a proven international players with 20 odd caps for Russia. Billy wins

 

Naughton vs Heit Naughton is again a unprove kid, who can't get in the spurs team. Heits is a proven international player.

 

We may of started looking at good players, but we ended up with great players an all it cost was one GREEDY basterd.

 

And Adpom, I completely agree with this!

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I think it's not the case of who spent how much - it's a case of how much did they need to spend to strengthen their squad adequately.

 

 

Man u NO - Sold Ronaldo and lost Tevez, bought in Valencia, Owen, Obertan and already have a massive squad - 52 players per position at least with Hargreaves coming back.

 

Arsenal NO - Sold Adebuyor and Toure - bought in Vermaelen and have an outragous number of youngsters coming through

 

Chelsea NO - big squad already, borught in zhirkov - £18m

 

Liverpool NO - lost alonso - brought in Johnson and Aquilaini to add to an already decent sized squad.

 

 

 

Everton: Struggled through last season having to play the same players with little rest. Injuries meant threadbare squad relied on youngsters with little or no premier league expreience sitting on the bench. Lost Valente, Castillo, Jacobsen and Lescott as senior players. Brought in: Billy, Heitinga, Distin and under the realisation that we are still threadbare Lucas Neill.

 

Yes we have strengthened in quality a little maybe, the damning fact remains is that our nearest rivals such as Villa and Spurs have strengthened what were already stronger squads than us.

 

If we are to continue to look to improve we need to get strength in depth. We are always 2 injuries away from a disaster - our first 11 is great, how often do the first 11 stay fit?

 

I applaud those who continue to look at the glass being half full - I wish I could. Fact is history has a way of repeating itself at this club. The only thing that keeps it positive is the work that Moyes and the boys do. We are being let down at a higher level.

 

Burning question: "How much is Everton up for sale for?"

This quite frankly is rubbish. Liverpool finished in the top 4, have a huge worldwide fanbase and only had a net spend of about 5 million and they only have one decent recognised striker - Torres. If he gets injured they're in big trouble. They have virtually no depth anywhere, they have a brilliant first eleven but a rubbish squad, hence why they most likely won't win the league again. United have definitely weakened however you look at it, Villa didn't spend much and lost their best player etc.

 

You mention about selling Rodwell in the future, we all hope this won't happen but if it's for the good of the club (like Lescott and Rooney) then what is the problem? Selling Lescott and Rooney has not weakened our club, it isn't making us go backwards, it's giving us the finances to help Moyes take us that next step into the top 4 and has had substantial benefits for the club already. I genuinely believe (for the first time in a long time) that we would win something this season. We have an excellent squad, easily our best in the last 20 years which has cover in every position on the pitch, we can now cope with cup runs and still achieve a high finish in the league. Finishing in the top 6 is going to be difficult this year, I think we can do it (even top 4) but at the same time I wouldn't be overly devastated if we finished 7th and won the Europa Cup. I think this year is going to be a great year for Everton fans, we've done some great transfer business and performances and results are now picking up, once Arteta is back we'll explode and start winning virtually every match. We have a very good team, as long as Moyes gets the right balance. I don't understand why Everton fans are so pessimistic, we don't have Mike Walker or Walter Smith anymore, we have one of the world's best managers and some fantastic players.

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Beat me to it. Eloquently written, highlights many of the points that have driven me insane. Expect it to be removed from the feed at some stage if one of his points are true!

Portsmouth, Notts County, QPR and Southampton? not exactly clubs I'm hoping to emulate, maybe Kenwright is waiting for the 'right' buyer rather than just anyone who apparently has some cash (look at Pompey post Gaydamak era).

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This quite frankly is rubbish. Liverpool finished in the top 4, have a huge worldwide fanbase and only had a net spend of about 5 million and they only have one decent recognised striker - Torres. If he gets injured they're in big trouble. They have virtually no depth anywhere, they have a brilliant first eleven but a rubbish squad, hence why they most likely won't win the league again. United have definitely weakened however you look at it, Villa didn't spend much and lost their best player etc.

 

You mention about selling Rodwell in the future, we all hope this won't happen but if it's for the good of the club (like Lescott and Rooney) then what is the problem? Selling Lescott and Rooney has not weakened our club, it isn't making us go backwards, it's giving us the finances to help Moyes take us that next step into the top 4 and has had substantial benefits for the club already. I genuinely believe (for the first time in a long time) that we would win something this season. We have an excellent squad, easily our best in the last 20 years which has cover in every position on the pitch, we can now cope with cup runs and still achieve a high finish in the league. Finishing in the top 6 is going to be difficult this year, I think we can do it (even top 4) but at the same time I wouldn't be overly devastated if we finished 7th and won the Europa Cup. I think this year is going to be a great year for Everton fans, we've done some great transfer business and performances and results are now picking up, once Arteta is back we'll explode and start winning virtually every match. We have a very good team, as long as Moyes gets the right balance. I don't understand why Everton fans are so pessimistic, we don't have Mike Walker or Walter Smith anymore, we have one of the world's best managers and some fantastic players.

 

Totally agree mate especially with the highlighted part.

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This quite frankly is rubbish. Liverpool finished in the top 4, have a huge worldwide fanbase and only had a net spend of about 5 million and they only have one decent recognised striker - Torres. If he gets injured they're in big trouble. They have virtually no depth anywhere, they have a brilliant first eleven but a rubbish squad, hence why they most likely won't win the league again. United have definitely weakened however you look at it, Villa didn't spend much and lost their best player etc.

 

You mention about selling Rodwell in the future, we all hope this won't happen but if it's for the good of the club (like Lescott and Rooney) then what is the problem? Selling Lescott and Rooney has not weakened our club, it isn't making us go backwards, it's giving us the finances to help Moyes take us that next step into the top 4 and has had substantial benefits for the club already.

 

 

Quite frankly rubbish? Tell me a team that has broken into the top 4 by selling their best/world class players without having a ready made equal or better successor bedded into the club?

 

Henry left Arsenal, replaced by Adebuyor, Viera left Arsenal replaced by Fabregas. Beckham left Man Utd, replaced by Ronaldo, so on and so on.

 

 

Everton - Rooney left, replaced by Marcus Bent and Tim Cahill. Lescott left, replaced by a v.good player admittedly - however has 2 years at top left. Selling Rooney and Lescott generated somewhere in the region of £45m. The money from Rooney was basically used to keep our heads above water, the money from Lescott was used to cover two extra postions that were evidently weak, that if we had addressed earlier (given finance) we may have won the FA Cup.

 

Now please let me know how you think selling Rodwell could be for the good of the club?

Whilst we are quite unable to beat other teams to signings when they express an interest in the likes of Rasmus Elm and Kyle Naughton, do you honestly think we are going to get someone in who can fill Rodwells boots?, cos if there was someone, they would be getting offered far more money by the likes of Aston Villa, Spurs, let alone the top 4.

 

It all depends on your contentment to accept what is happening at our club, if you are happy with a Doug Ellis type Aston Villa, then enjoy what we have now before the likes of Arteta, Rodwell, and Jags seek Champions league football and the whole cycle of bargain buying continues again (probably without the stewardship of Moyes who will by then be off to a different club). Villa have had a resurgence under Randy lerner that makes the Villa of old (John Fashanu, Steve Staunton, Ron atkinson, John Gregory, bloated Ginola) a distant memory.

 

If you are happy to let Moyes achievements give the current ownership then fine. I for one am amazed by what Moyes has done for this club and I am really proud of the team we have and hope that we can challenge the top 6 this season. However the potential of this team with a couple more class signings is that of a league challenge, Under the current board, do you think we will get the support to do that? Please don't ask me to look at figures, I do this day in day out for my job - we are fans of the club, we are not and should not be expected to be accountants and feel sympathy for those that do not have the financial muscle to run it in the way it should.

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I genuinely believe (for the first time in a long time) that we would win something this season. We have an excellent squad, easily our best in the last 20 years which has cover in every position on the pitch, we can now cope with cup runs and still achieve a high finish in the league.

 

Either you weren't around in the eighties, or you are being overly optimistic.

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Either you weren't around in the eighties, or you are being overly optimistic.

Twenty years ago it was September 1989, so what does the team of the eighties have to do with it :huh: ?

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Hafnia - Just to pick up on a point here, Bent & Cahill were bought in June/July respctively, Rooney was sold on 31st August.

At the next window he got in James Beattie and Mikel Arteta (On loan).

 

 

Captain - Being picky again, 89/90 we finished 6th a feat only once equalled mid 90's and not bettered until DM's reign, so he is right in many ways ;)

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Without being analytical to the point of using google we are running a sell to buy business. The major saleable assets we have now are ones that would form part of a first team of a title contending team. Taking two or three steps forward without taking one back is what we need. If we had strength in depth we would have had champions league football. We have been hindered by our weak right hand side and inabilty to cover injuries. By the way as an fyi, we were on the decline in 89 as we had sold our title winning players of 85 to the likes of rangers, marseille etc as they had european cup aspirations. 20 years, 24 years whatever. Nil satis nisi optimum looks a nice bit of latin, it's what it means that we need to remember.

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Without being analytical to the point of using google we are running a sell to buy business. The major saleable assets we have now are ones that would form part of a first team of a title contending team. Taking two or three steps forward without taking one back is what we need. If we had strength in depth we would have had champions league football. We have been hindered by our weak right hand side and inabilty to cover injuries. By the way as an fyi, we were on the decline in 89 as we had sold our title winning players of 85 to the likes of rangers, marseille etc as they had european cup aspirations. 20 years, 24 years whatever. Nil satis nisi optimum looks a nice bit of latin, it's what it means that we need to remember.

Man Utd have sold Beckham, Ronaldo, Ince, Van Nistelrooy etc. No one player is bigger than the club, would you rather we had Rooney and were playing in the Championship? We all want more money, we all know that with a little more investment we could potentially be serious challengers for the top 2 or 3 but we don't all want just any old millionaire taking over the club as some of them don't actually put any of their money into the club they just put the club further into debt and then leave them high and dry when they walk away. Peter Johnson was a rich man, what did he do for Everton? I believe that Kenwright is waiting for the right investor and at the moment, with the ground the way it is etc it may just be that the right investor is not interested in us. We're moving forward every season, I for one am happy with that.

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Man Utd have sold Beckham, Ronaldo, Ince, Van Nistelrooy etc. No one player is bigger than the club, would you rather we had Rooney and were playing in the Championship? We all want more money, we all know that with a little more investment we could potentially be serious challengers for the top 2 or 3 but we don't all want just any old millionaire taking over the club as some of them don't actually put any of their money into the club they just put the club further into debt and then leave them high and dry when they walk away. Peter Johnson was a rich man, what did he do for Everton? I believe that Kenwright is waiting for the right investor and at the moment, with the ground the way it is etc it may just be that the right investor is not interested in us. We're moving forward every season, I for one am happy with that.

 

 

The above mentioned players for United had either had past their sell by date with Sir Alex, and he deemed them surplus to requirements, or they had achieved all there was to achieve in the premiership. Not one of them was sold to a Premiership rival and all were sold for a major profit. None of our players could leave stating that they need a fresh challenge after achieving all the trophies they could at Everton (I would love it if that was the case).

 

Seeing Rooney sign for Man U was arguably one of the toughest things I have had to stomach as an Evertonian, when someone becomes the saviour of a team, it's usually because they great things on the pitch, Rooney unfortunately was the saviour for Everton because he was sold to ease our debts. I want to see the day when we have a team consisting of Arteta, Rodwell, Jagielka, Gosling, Baxter (and Billy) lifting the Premier league trophy, the only way that will happen is if we have a different financial model, because as they get better, the big boys will come knocking.

 

I totally agree that there are chairmen out there who have rolls of cash with no intention of spending money, however I also know that there are chairmen out there who's hunger and desire not to mention the all important EGO that made them successful in business wants to be played on on a bigger stage, and none are bigger than the premier league. The reason Lerner bought Villa was to compete with the Glazers, some of these people have more money than they will ever need and are generally bored, but the satisfaction that they can gain from turning a club having to operate shrewdly into a major player must be enormous.

 

I agree, on the pitch things are looking good, it's the ominous feeling generated by those at a higher level that causes us fans to question every piece of information that we are fed. The proof is in the pudding, we seem to be getting decent gates, the fan base is there, we achieve solid league placings, FA cup finals, excellent transfer turnovers, a great manager - yet...................

 

On a refreshing note it's nice to hear the the red s&^*te will have to suffice with a £20m transfer budget p.a for the next 5 years. Hopefully Man City, Spurs and Arsenal can keep them out of the top 4 and mess up their budget further (£30m per year based on champions league) B)

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