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Kenwright

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http://www.mirrorfoo...icle217665.html

 

In the car the other day, I swear I had to pull over and, well, err, swear at the radio.Some punter calling himself an Everton fan was on a phone-in, saying that the club's injury crisis showed that it was time for chairman Bill Kenwright to go.

 

His - frankly mental - argument went along these almost unintelligible lines. Everton have 11 players out, but should still have the resources to cope, and they don't because Kenwright is standing in the way of a sale that would bring massive investment in the club.

 

Apparently, there are loads of billionaires out there, queuing up to buy the Blues and throw sacks of money at the cause to make them biggest club in the world. But Kenwright isn't interested because he only wants the glory of running the club he has supported for 50 years.

 

Hmmmm. Some argument.

 

I'm sure Liverpool, or Newcastle, or Portsmouth, or another 15 or 16 Premier League clubs would love to meet these billionaires, as indeed the doughty Kenwright himself would, after searching relentlessly and passionately for new investment into the club he loves.

 

Now let's examine the other side of the debate. Without 11 players, nearly all of them first team regulars, Everton drew against Aston Villa two weekends ago, after outplaying them for large parts of the game, and deserving victory. True, they were then outclassed by Benfica, with the same number of players missing, and then they beat West Ham at Upton Park.

 

This is an Aston Villa side who will go into the top four if they win their game in hand over the clubs above them, and a club that has pretensions of playing the Champions League next season. It is a West Ham side who took points off Arsenal at home.

 

When the freak injury crisis that has hit Goodison is over, they will have so many top class players to choose from, that manager David Moyes will have a genuine headache about who to leave out. Why?

 

Because Kenwright has shown remarkable skill in stewarding the club and providing support to a remarkable manager in Moyes, who has built a powerful squad that the rest of the Premier League would be envious about.

 

Virtually no other club could cope with such injuries as Everton have done. Just look at Liverpool and see the effects of injury problems on results. Yet Everton remain in a good position in Europe, and not too far off the pace in the league.

 

It is because they have a fine manager, and a fine chairman, who balances his love of his club with the financial realities of football in the 21st century. And for that, he deserves praise from genuine Everton fans, not the nonsense that was spouted on the radio last weekend.

 

 

One for the Kenwright bashers

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There are probably 50% for, 40% against, and 10% Dont Knows, it just boils down to another person voicing his opinion. ;)

You're probably about right Bill when it comes to Evertonians, but the writer (as far as I know) isn't one.

When it comes to people without an emotional interest looking at our situation from the outside it's probably more like 95% thinking our board and manager are doing a good job.

 

People will no doubt argue that that's because they don't know enough about it :) .

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People here know that I'm not a Kenwright basher. I always give him a fair shout and try and argue against the severe cynicism and negativity that some fans attribute to every one of his actions.

 

But seriously, how can ANYONE of any position - on Kirkby, Kenwright or any other Everton 'political' position - manage to read that article without see more bias to one side than the Leaning Tower of Pisa?!

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http://blogs.mirror.co.uk/football-banter/2009/02/why-david-moyes-not-guus-hiddi.html#comments

 

it's clear that the man thinks we should be grateful for what we have, know our place, shut up and let the press decide what is right for the club and state where sit amongst the elite.

 

In the article attached he suggests Moyes would be the ideal manager for Chelsea, really? "But Mr Maddock, we want Moyes to have a crack at managing our club with some money to spend??? - can we keep him please?, and whilst you are there can you not publish any stories saying that Man Utd are the ideal club for Jack Rodwell to continue his development, we don't want other clubs to think we are there just to supply them with future talent"

 

The article above clearly shows the detachment between fleet street journo's and the true fan. Yes some true fans are prepared to stick with Bill, fine. I'm not. It's got to the state now that journo's see our fans as ever loyal, happy go lucky, comically ambitious. The only solution to this is to get some serious investment and wipe the sarcastic smiles off their faces, maybe we will even get more than 2 mins on match of the day.

 

Nil satis nisi optimum is not just a nice latin banner, it is what we should expect, and no journalist has the right to tell us otherwise.

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Here is a piece by a blue who replied to his article:

 

 

In fairness to the radio caller, Bill Kenwright should leave the club soon but not because of his lack (in comparison to other club owners) of money. He simple has nothing to offer the club any more. The people who has he brought to the board in Robert Earl and Jon Woods also don't seem to offer much other than bums on seats at the AGM.

 

He was on the board when Everton missed the boat when selling shares to Premium TV (NTL subsidiary) but spent the money on players anyway. He's also been Chairman during several high profile errors. Alex Nyarko signed a 5 year deal despite holding a 4 year work permit meaning Everton paid almost £1million in wages for a player we couldn't even play. He fell out with a director who offered to move Everton to a city centre 55,000 capacity stadium. He took a loan out for £30million to consolidate debts which will cost £69million to pay back - Everton spend over £2million a year on this. Since 2002, we've spent £17million on interest and only £4m from the initial money borrowed.

 

He has overseen the sale of the Eileen Craven site, seemingly mortgaged training facility Bellefield and used Goodison park as collateral against the £30million loan. He mislead shareholders over a loan from Singer & Friedlander and told them it was an "advance from sky". He gave the impression that he had employed someone to find a buyer for the club ("Keith Harris is out there looking for me"), he hadn't. He also oversaw the sale and lease back of the Finch Farm training facilities.

 

He has not even given a reason why Keith Wyness resigned. I don't want to mention the Fortress Sports Fund debacle, I think they ended up investing in dog food in Eastern Europe.

 

The club's debt is at it's highest level since the sale of Rooney, we have secured the mortgage against next season's television money, this month took on another loan from Investec.

 

He obviously cares for the club and is popular with the older generation of fans, but I think he is inhibiting the long-term ambitions. If the Kirkby stadium relocation collapses I can't see him being involved with the club this time next year. Some fans who oppose the stadium in Kirkby attended a Public Inquiry and gave evidence against the plans because they feel it's simply not in the club's best interests.

 

Put simply, over the past decade but has made too many mistakes. He does however, deserve much praise and gratitude for employing David Moyes.

 

 

 

eek, it seems we have people armed with more info than the journo's, tin hats on Bill!!!

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Here is a piece by a blue who replied to his article:

 

 

 

 

 

eek, it seems we have people armed with more info than the journo's, tin hats on Bill!!!

 

 

I doubt it, his mistakes will be swept under the carpet.

 

He's not a bad man, he's just made mistakes and has no money, but those things shouldn't be ignored simply because he employed David Moyes and is a blue. Why settle for second, third, fourth best?

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the problem is there are evertonians out there that know millionaires but hardly any know billionaires and thats what we need.

 

I don't think it matters that BK isn't rubbing shoulders with Bill Gates, while I don't completely like the idea and the way things are going, Football loving Billionaires are going to buy any club they can to turn into their own real life fantasy football side. If Pompey and even Man City can get a massive buyout while being in the Championship less than a decade ago I find it hard to believe that no one at all is interested in buying a club with a passionate fan base, a good solid base squad to build on and has continually overachieved in term of league finishes over the past few seasons. Over the last two years there have been reports of billionaire or consortium's looking to buy our club. September 08 we had reports of the Indian bloke, Anil Ambani and even in April this year we had a UAE group sniffing around.

 

While the media, in particular the British media do not always tell 100% of the story all the time, these stories can not just be pulled out of thin air on a slow news day, there has to be some base fact to the rumor/story.

 

I understand that Bill loves this club, as we all do, but if he really does then how can he sit back and see us slip from knocking on the door for the four to a mid table, mediocre club? While we are not a big club our good players and bright prospects will be poached by bigger clubs with more money (Rooney, Lescott and Rodwell may be next). If we do not attract the right investors then that's exactly what we will be doomed too, no matter how good our manager is, if he too isn't tempted away by a club not just on his pay check but to spend in the market.

 

BTW this has to be a joke right; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes%27_list_of_the_most_valuable_football_clubs

 

Forbes has us in the top 25 richest clubs (24 this year) and the past few we have been up to 21..

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the problem i have is that he looks for INVESTMENT, not some one to BUY the club. i honestly think he will not sell the club until the fans make a villain of him (like with PJ)

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Did you know that PJ once put off Joe Lewis (the billionaire) with his high asking price? He asked for £70million in 1997.

 

Nice first post Tristagi, welcome to TT.

 

I think the reason Everton are valued so highly is because the money derived from television is so high. I don't think the '2010' edition will show Newcastle in such a positive light.

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i like the fact that the poster had read this thread, especially as they used my nil satis closing piece. I would like to say it was me on sos but it wasn't. It is important that we as fans question any grey areas going on in this club. Once exposed to lying or otherwise, you can expect the following outcry to deter any further mismanagement or lies. Our story of recent years has been similar to brawn in f1, the good fortune will ultimately run out once a need for cash surpasses the success we have enjoyed due to our competitors missing a trick or two. A net spend of 4 million per year really does send alarming signals.

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i like the fact that the poster had read this thread, especially as they used my nil satis closing piece. I would like to say it was me on sos but it wasn't. It is important that we as fans question any grey areas going on in this club. Once exposed to lying or otherwise, you can expect the following outcry to deter any further mismanagement or lies. Our story of recent years has been similar to brawn in f1, the good fortune will ultimately run out once a need for cash surpasses the success we have enjoyed due to our competitors missing a trick or two. A net spend of 4 million per year really does send alarming signals.

 

Or you used his. :D:D

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I have to say I find all of this really, really depressing - football fans reduced to talking about 'success' as selling their club to the highest bidder, because that's what most of the people on here wanting Kenwright out are doing, when it boils down to it. You can talk about it being the realities of the modern game all you want, but it's bollox.

 

I can name one football club in England who can currently claim any kind of 'success' on the back of a mega-money buy-out - Chelsea. The Glazers' take over at Manure hardly counts, they were already the most successful club in the country having gradually built an enormous global brand over 30 or 40 years. Man City may go on to enjoy huge success, but who knows - they've thrown money all over the place before, and ended up in the third tier. Out of all the others - Liverpool, Newcastle, Portsmouth, QPR, West Ham, Fulham, they've achieved eff all (When Gillett & Hicks took over the shite, btw, their debts were valued at £250m - how high are ours?). Even Aston Villa, one of the only teams I can think of who can be really pleased with the guy who has taken them over, are not achieved any more than us. And who knows what will happen to Chelski when the Russian takes his ball home.

 

It makes me laugh that you're all slagging off a journalist for standing up for Kenwright when most of you are just blindly following the line the media peddles day in, day out - in football, money = success. Where's the evidence?

 

In the Premier League era, the title has only been won three times by teams who aren't Manure or Arsenal, and yes, both Blackburn and Chelsea pretty much bought the title following sudden, rapid investment. But 3 out of 17 titles is hardly a fabulous ratio. On the other hand, Manure, and to a lesser extent Arsenal, have followed a different model - I'm not disputing money has played a part, but there's been no sugar daddy's, no headline-grabbing takeovers, no putting backroom matters before football. And that's the secret - both clubs have put football first, picked managers with a vision, backed them to deliver on their promises, and managed to turn on-field success into off-field commercial success which generates enough cash from the footballing brand to make success self-perpetuating. That is the model that works in English football, end of.

 

What infuriates me is how few people give Kenwright credit for trying to follow this model. Clearly he hasn't been as successful at it as, say Martin Edwards or David Dein. He'd probably hold his hand up and admit he's not the businessman those two are, and yes he has made some expensive mistakes. But he has taken us from relegation fodder to a team people, maybe with a hint of surprise in their voice, now recognise as a force in English football again. It took Man Utd nearly 20 years from their lowest point in the 70s to winning a title again. We've had less than a decade since we were on everyone's favourite for the drop list year in, year out. The first part of the mission has been accomplished - we're back somewhere in the vicinity of where a club which is one of the 25 richest in the world should be.

 

I'm not necessarily saying Kenwright is the right man to lead us through the next phase of our journey back to the top. Given that he isn't, by his own admission, the smoothest of operators in the commercial world, and therefore hasn't done enough to guild Everton FC back up into a brand which will attract investment, probably not. But some of you sound dangerously close to calling on him to sell up to the first shiek or oligarch who rolls up with enough gold, and if that's how you are thinking, I'd politely ask you to remove your heads from your backsides and have a good look at how football really works. Kenwright has said he'll only sell to the right man - and 99% of rich men who want to invest in a football club are not the right man for Everton FC. Why? Because they want their club to be a plaything, they want it to help boost their own profile, inflate their own ego - in other words, its not the club that bothers them, its how it reflects on them. What we want is someone who is absolutely committed, heart and soul, to making Everton FC the best club in the world - talk about what Nil satis nisi optimum means, then that's it, we want the best. That is a long, hard, even selfless project, and not one we want some super-rich ego anywhere near. It will take a special kind of person to take the club to the next stage, the stage we as fans expect, and they're not going to come along very often.

 

In the meantime, I say be patient. Kenwright might not be the saviour but he has given us steady progress over the last decade, so i don't really see what everyone's moaning about.

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It would be seeing as you agree with his view though wouldn't it Mike?

 

Kenwright can't afford to back Moyes and Moyes deserves to be backed, it's as simple as that.

Of course. But as I've said before it's quite possible to broadly agree with it and also agree with your second sentence :) .

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It's all getting tiresome, the Kenwright conversation just goes around in circles - same shit, different day. You get a pro- or anti-Kenwright post and then people agree and then people put their rebuttals in. Yawn.

True, but it's one of those things that ain't going to go away (even after Bill's long gone I shouldn't think).

Like Ferguson and Fellaini....splits us right down the middle :) .

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Zed    1

It would be seeing as you agree with his view though wouldn't it Mike?

 

Kenwright can't afford to back Moyes and Moyes deserves to be backed, it's as simple as that.

 

Its very hard not to agree with such a well thought out view, based around historical facts and common sense

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Never before has the need for finance been so crucial in recruiting the best players in the world. And never before have we been so far behind in terms of recruiting top talent. If it's not the fee it's wages, if it's not the wages it's none champions league football. And we can not provide this without real investment in the playing staff. I don't know any empire or industry that has gained strength from selling their key assets, nor do i know any industry that improves by having someone who admits having no business brain as chairman. It's almost like playing monopoly, selling your assets to the player who needs them so they can start building houses and hotels, you are not going to win. We need to land on free parking, get all the lovely free cash in the middle, and laugh at the other players when they make silly cash offers. I can see bill landing on free parking after he has sold park lane and mayfair i'm afraid.

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I'd politely ask you to remove your heads from your backsides and have a good look at how football really works.

that works both ways. please politely remove your head from your arse, and realise how football works nowdays!

you need money to succeed in the game! we dont have money, we wont get better until we get it.

even back in the 80's we had money.

 

dont forget all of the assets the club have sold under bill, we only have goodison thats worth anything.

 

i like bill as a bloke, hes a nice chap, but he cant do anything for the club anymore.

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that works both ways. please politely remove your head from your arse, and realise how football works nowdays!

you need money to succeed in the game! we dont have money, we wont get better until we get it.

even back in the 80's we had money.

 

dont forget all of the assets the club have sold under bill, we only have goodison thats worth anything.

 

i like bill as a bloke, hes a nice chap, but he cant do anything for the club anymore.

 

 

Technically we don't own Goodison, it's in negative equity. If we sold it we still wouldn't cover the loans secured on it.

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I have to say I find all of this really, really depressing - football fans reduced to talking about 'success' as selling their club to the highest bidder, because that's what most of the people on here wanting Kenwright out are doing, when it boils down to it. You can talk about it being the realities of the modern game all you want, but it's bollox.

 

I can name one football club in England who can currently claim any kind of 'success' on the back of a mega-money buy-out - Chelsea. The Glazers' take over at Manure hardly counts, they were already the most successful club in the country having gradually built an enormous global brand over 30 or 40 years. Man City may go on to enjoy huge success, but who knows - they've thrown money all over the place before, and ended up in the third tier. Out of all the others - Liverpool, Newcastle, Portsmouth, QPR, West Ham, Fulham, they've achieved eff all (When Gillett & Hicks took over the shite, btw, their debts were valued at £250m - how high are ours?). Even Aston Villa, one of the only teams I can think of who can be really pleased with the guy who has taken them over, are not achieved any more than us. And who knows what will happen to Chelski when the Russian takes his ball home.

 

It makes me laugh that you're all slagging off a journalist for standing up for Kenwright when most of you are just blindly following the line the media peddles day in, day out - in football, money = success. Where's the evidence?

 

In the Premier League era, the title has only been won three times by teams who aren't Manure or Arsenal, and yes, both Blackburn and Chelsea pretty much bought the title following sudden, rapid investment. But 3 out of 17 titles is hardly a fabulous ratio. On the other hand, Manure, and to a lesser extent Arsenal, have followed a different model - I'm not disputing money has played a part, but there's been no sugar daddy's, no headline-grabbing takeovers, no putting backroom matters before football. And that's the secret - both clubs have put football first, picked managers with a vision, backed them to deliver on their promises, and managed to turn on-field success into off-field commercial success which generates enough cash from the footballing brand to make success self-perpetuating. That is the model that works in English football, end of.

 

What infuriates me is how few people give Kenwright credit for trying to follow this model. Clearly he hasn't been as successful at it as, say Martin Edwards or David Dein. He'd probably hold his hand up and admit he's not the businessman those two are, and yes he has made some expensive mistakes. But he has taken us from relegation fodder to a team people, maybe with a hint of surprise in their voice, now recognise as a force in English football again. It took Man Utd nearly 20 years from their lowest point in the 70s to winning a title again. We've had less than a decade since we were on everyone's favourite for the drop list year in, year out. The first part of the mission has been accomplished - we're back somewhere in the vicinity of where a club which is one of the 25 richest in the world should be.

 

I'm not necessarily saying Kenwright is the right man to lead us through the next phase of our journey back to the top. Given that he isn't, by his own admission, the smoothest of operators in the commercial world, and therefore hasn't done enough to guild Everton FC back up into a brand which will attract investment, probably not. But some of you sound dangerously close to calling on him to sell up to the first shiek or oligarch who rolls up with enough gold, and if that's how you are thinking, I'd politely ask you to remove your heads from your backsides and have a good look at how football really works. Kenwright has said he'll only sell to the right man - and 99% of rich men who want to invest in a football club are not the right man for Everton FC. Why? Because they want their club to be a plaything, they want it to help boost their own profile, inflate their own ego - in other words, its not the club that bothers them, its how it reflects on them. What we want is someone who is absolutely committed, heart and soul, to making Everton FC the best club in the world - talk about what Nil satis nisi optimum means, then that's it, we want the best. That is a long, hard, even selfless project, and not one we want some super-rich ego anywhere near. It will take a special kind of person to take the club to the next stage, the stage we as fans expect, and they're not going to come along very often.

 

In the meantime, I say be patient. Kenwright might not be the saviour but he has given us steady progress over the last decade, so i don't really see what everyone's moaning about.

 

 

 

I would go along with most of that

 

I can see why people want to see the back of Kenwright and I agree he needs to go before the club can move forward, its simple economics, but I cant understand why people are so easy to dismisss him and his achievements and seem to want to mark him down as some kind of periah

 

Would all the BK bashers honestly have prefered it if Peter Johnson was still in charge?

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Never before has the need for finance been so crucial in recruiting the best players in the world. And never before have we been so far behind in terms of recruiting top talent. If it's not the fee it's wages, if it's not the wages it's none champions league football. And we can not provide this without real investment in the playing staff. I don't know any empire or industry that has gained strength from selling their key assets, nor do i know any industry that improves by having someone who admits having no business brain as chairman. It's almost like playing monopoly, selling your assets to the player who needs them so they can start building houses and hotels, you are not going to win. We need to land on free parking, get all the lovely free cash in the middle, and laugh at the other players when they make silly cash offers. I can see bill landing on free parking after he has sold park lane and mayfair i'm afraid.

 

 

Hmmmm so Everton Football Club never got any stronger from the sales of Rooney & Lescott?

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Hmmmm so Everton Football Club never got any stronger from the sales of Rooney & Lescott?

 

No, in a word. If selling someone who is currenly worth in the region of £60-£70m for £10m up front with £10m in installments plus add ons depending on their success represents strength, then to repeat the act several years later only to use that money as the sole means of transfer activity after finishing 5th and a cup final, then strength is not what I would call it.

 

Given we have acheived way more than can be expected in the league with very little outlay, with very little left to spend (with no assets - discussed in main article)do you think we are strong? I don't. We are in a very vulnerable position indeed, the only way out of this is money - Kenwright doesn't have any, we need someone who has. History has a way of repeating itself, who's next? Rodwell, Arteta, Jags???

 

Did West Ham end up strong after selling Ferdinand, Lampard, Cole, Carrick, Reo Coker?

 

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-sport/article-23674062-harry-redknapp-slams-hammers-for-selling-home-grown-stars.do

 

Again history has a way of repeating itself, the more that the Kenwright topic rears it's head, the more I find myself repeating. Sod it, let's be a feeder club and hope for the odd Wembley semi final eh...

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I have to say I find all of this really, really depressing - football fans reduced to talking about 'success' as selling their club to the highest bidder, because that's what most of the people on here wanting Kenwright out are doing, when it boils down to it. You can talk about it being the realities of the modern game all you want, but it's bollox.

 

....... (edit to save space!)

 

In the meantime, I say be patient. Kenwright might not be the saviour but he has given us steady progress over the last decade, so i don't really see what everyone's moaning about.

spot on lad. ive been trying to think of a response for days but well summed up...

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Did West Ham end up strong after selling Ferdinand, Lampard, Cole, Carrick, Reo Coker?

 

 

Sorry - not posted for a while, but feel quite strongly about this.

 

Is this the same West Ham that got an Icelandic Billionaire to buy them and are now in an even worse position than we are?

 

Billionaire Sugar Daddies that would have the interests of Everton at heart are rarer than Rockinghorse S**t! Also remember that in 10-20 years time, when all the billionaires have got bored with their football team toys and haven't won anything (there are only 2 leagues to win -Euro and Domestic) what state will those clubs get left in? Be careful what you wish for! This is a marathon not a sprint.

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Would all the BK bashers honestly have prefered it if Peter Johnson was still in charge?

he would have done something about the stadium, he had some great plans. thats all i have to say on PJ

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Hey! another Kenwright debate.Must say I'm with nogs and Galacticaracnid on this one.

As pointed out a few clubs now have shown that being bought by some bloke with apparently mega millions hasn't been the answer to their dreams.Liverpools dream owners bought them plenty of classy new players, promised them a new stadium, they and Rafa have kinda made them a laughing stock with the battle that's going on, sure they've got injuries who hasn't!.....they were bought out!....surely these things don't happen after you've been sold :unsure: The Man City dream can go wrong at any time.The west Ham ones not doing too well, or the Portsmouth one, maybe not even the liverpool one.

 

Maybe Kenwright is killing us with his love!.....well there are plenty of other ways to kill of a football club, ie West Ham and Portsmouth could infact be relegated, maybe loves not such a bad thing.

 

Kenwright IS guilty at the moment, of probably not selling us to the wrong people....thanks Bill!

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he would have done something about the stadium, he had some great plans. thats all i have to say on PJ

Dont get me going on that RS twat.Kenwright has to go but lets get DK out the way first.IMWT

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No, in a word. If selling someone who is currenly worth in the region of £60-£70m for £10m up front with £10m in installments plus add ons depending on their success represents strength, then to repeat the act several years later only to use that money as the sole means of transfer activity after finishing 5th and a cup final, then strength is not what I would call it.

 

Given we have acheived way more than can be expected in the league with very little outlay, with very little left to spend (with no assets - discussed in main article)do you think we are strong? I don't. We are in a very vulnerable position indeed, the only way out of this is money - Kenwright doesn't have any, we need someone who has. History has a way of repeating itself, who's next? Rodwell, Arteta, Jags???

 

Did West Ham end up strong after selling Ferdinand, Lampard, Cole, Carrick, Reo Coker?

 

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-sport/article-23674062-harry-redknapp-slams-hammers-for-selling-home-grown-stars.do

 

Again history has a way of repeating itself, the more that the Kenwright topic rears it's head, the more I find myself repeating. Sod it, let's be a feeder club and hope for the odd Wembley semi final eh...

 

 

 

Well I have to disagree with you .

If you cant see that the Everton squad got stronger after we sold Rooney then there is no point talking to you

 

As you say history has a habit of repeating itself and the sale of Lescott( which I think was an outstandind piece of business by the way!) has lead to the squad being stronger again this season

 

 

What have West Ham got to do with it by the way?

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Zed    1

Because there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that Kenwright has made quite a few fuck ups in his time is there?

 

Like I said, its very hard not to agree with a well though out post, based around facts and common sense. As for mistakes, show me a manager of a business who hasn't made mistakes and I'll show you someone who hasnt done anything. Thats life, Man u supporters didnt like Martin Edwards, and look how well they did. Its a thankless task

 

As for Peter Johnson, plans are one thing, reality is a bit different

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"...In the meantime, I say be patient. Kenwright might not be the saviour but he has given us steady progress over the last decade, so i don't really see what everyone's moaning about"

 

Great post Nogs however its not just as simple as waiting for the right man to come along. The current financial state of Everton FC is terrible. We cant keep taking out loans on top of loans until this guy comes along. This season doesnt look as though its going to be all that great meaning its unlikely that we will generate anywhere near the revenues we did this/last year. Not only will we not be able to attract the top players in terms of funds/wages but without the lure of Europe they are likely to go elsewhere, and unless this is addressed its very much a downward spiral just ask Leeds and Southamptons fans!

 

While I agree we do want our owner to have a passion for the club, if we dont get some finance soon we will be in larger debt with very few profitable assets and if this is combined with poor form on the pitch then we will be in real trouble. And that situation will attract very few buyers and it will be too late.

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Well I have to disagree with you .

If you cant see that the Everton squad got stronger after we sold Rooney then there is no point talking to you

 

As you say history has a habit of repeating itself and the sale of Lescott( which I think was an outstandind piece of business by the way!) has lead to the squad being stronger again this season

 

 

What have West Ham got to do with it by the way?

 

You say we became a stronger squad after selling the best footballer in England - the irony. That is my point exactly. It's a false economy, we are trying to fill a bath with water and the plug has gone missing!

 

The sale of Rooney wasn't a cure for our clubs financial state, it was a symptom of what is going on. We sold Rooney and became a better squad - it wasn't hard, scott gemmill, nyarko, alexanderson, Li Tie, Kilbane, Chadwick, plus an aging back 4 and keeper were squad members round that time. Point is we had to sell Rooney (of which I wish the club would admit what really went on, - same situation as Gary Speed I guess)

 

Lescott was great business? It was on the basis that we got more than the going rate, it wasn't great business in that we were left frantically trying to patch up a defence that has since been leaking goals. When Baines got injured we had to throw a inexperienced lad (Coleman) against Benfica.

 

What has this got to do with West Ham? West Ham had the makings of a great team sold for what was deemed good buisness(Ferdinand, Cole, Carrick, Lampard, Defoe), what did the money they received get them?

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Selling Lampard bought them a new stand :P.

 

 

Frank was sold for £11m, peanuts compared to the £18m received for Rio. When old arry wanted to spend the Rio money on transfers he was told their salaries would be factored in to the transfer fee as part of a total deal (sounds familiar) - arry was also told to accept this as the chairman had turned a blind eye to some of his questionable dealings. Minto, Camara etc.

 

He resigned, the money from the transfers wasn't seen as most went on the stadium, and West Ham were relegted and in debt.

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You say we became a stronger squad after selling the best footballer in England - the irony. That is my point exactly. It's a false economy, we are trying to fill a bath with water and the plug has gone missing!

 

The sale of Rooney wasn't a cure for our clubs financial state, it was a symptom of what is going on. We sold Rooney and became a better squad - it wasn't hard, scott gemmill, nyarko, alexanderson, Li Tie, Kilbane, Chadwick, plus an aging back 4 and keeper were squad members round that time. Point is we had to sell Rooney (of which I wish the club would admit what really went on, - same situation as Gary Speed I guess)

 

Lescott was great business? It was on the basis that we got more than the going rate, it wasn't great business in that we were left frantically trying to patch up a defence that has since been leaking goals. When Baines got injured we had to throw a inexperienced lad (Coleman) against Benfica.

 

What has this got to do with West Ham? West Ham had the makings of a great team sold for what was deemed good buisness(Ferdinand, Cole, Carrick, Lampard, Defoe), what did the money they received get them?

 

 

Lol nice analogy but the fact of the matter is we improved on the back of the sale of Rooney.

If you dont agree look where we finished in the table with Rooney in the side, then look where we finished after we sold him

 

You must be the only man on the planet who doesnt think that the Lescott sale was good business. Yes the timing wasnt right but that was down to the fact that City dragged their heels stumping up the asking price. Do you think we would have been better off accepting the first offer for him just to give us more time to find a replacement even if it meant losing out on £8M?

My only critisicm of the Board with regards to the Lescott saga was that we should have seen it coming and had a contingency plan in place

 

Rooney wanted to leave, Lescott wanted to leave we got great deals for both of them and the squad was strenghthend as a result of those deals its as simple as that

 

Bringing up West Ham weakens your argument IMO. Yes they sold there best players but thier Board didnt pump the money back into the side and so they struggled as a result and so its fair game to have a pop at West Hams Board

 

Bk did and yet you criticise him

 

The facts are the side has improved year on year over the past decade and expectations have rightly rissen with them but all the flack BK is getting is unjust IMO. If he had turned us into a mid table side, never challenging for Europe or having Cup runs but never fighting relegation would you be happier?

 

People need to remember where we have come from under his stewardship instead of letting greed cloud their judgement.

 

I agree that he has taken us as far as he can and so we desperately need a new owner but to demonise BK just because he isnt a billionaire is out of order

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:blink: OMG is that a yes???? :huh::o

NO!!! im not defending PJ at all, i just know he had great plans for the stadium, and he didnt want us to move away to acheive them.

 

 

 

People need to remember where we have come from under his stewardship instead of letting greed cloud their judgement.

 

 

yes, people do need to remember where we have come from. we are the fourth most sucessful side in english football, we need to remember that too!

 

why should we accept mediocracy?

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NO!!! im not defending PJ at all, i just know he had great plans for the stadium, and he didnt want us to move away to acheive them.

 

 

 

yes, people do need to remember where we have come from. we are the fourth most sucessful side in english football, we need to remember that too!

 

why should we accept mediocracy?

 

 

When did I say we should accept mediocracy?

 

I have already said that BK cant take us on to the next level Im just saying people should appreciate what he has done

 

As for us being the fourth most succesful side in english football, how is that even relevant?

 

The glory years are well and truly in the past and our fall from grace has nothing to do with BK.

Surely he can only be held responseible for events during his tenure and we are most definitely in a much better position now than when he took over or are you disputing that?

 

The next thing you will be telling me is it was Kenwrights fault we sold Alan Ball!

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NO!!! im not defending PJ at all, i just know he had great plans for the stadium, and he didnt want us to move away to acheive them.

 

My memory (faulty as it may be) tells me he wanted us to move to Widnes or Warrington or somewhere. I may be wrong in that.

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I think we should be grateful to Bill for what he has done, however the gratitude will turn into resentment "if" there are any suggestions that he has put himself and some cash before the success of the club.

 

If the 24/7 search for investment is a promise then we should be expecting to hear something along the lines of interest. Is the Kirby decision what this all hinges on? We will see shortly, I for one am against the move - I smell a rat.

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When did I say we should accept mediocracy?

 

I have already said that BK cant take us on to the next level Im just saying people should appreciate what he has done

 

As for us being the fourth most succesful side in english football, how is that even relevant?

 

The glory years are well and truly in the past and our fall from grace has nothing to do with BK.

Surely he can only be held responseible for events during his tenure and we are most definitely in a much better position now than when he took over or are you disputing that?

 

The next thing you will be telling me is it was Kenwrights fault we sold Alan Ball!

You never said we should accept mediocracy, but you did say we should look where we come from to where we are now, saying relegation fodder. I'm saying we come from better stock than that and we should always look to being the best we can be, not being happy to be better than when we were relegation fodder. I never once said its BKs fault did i?

 

My memory (faulty as it may be) tells me he wanted us to move to Widnes or Warrington or somewhere. I may be wrong in that.

 

he wanted to turn the ground around, bullens being an end and gwladys being a side. Knock the school down and build it on the eileen craven site (which has now been sold off). This obviously never happened as he left the club, but he still has the designs now. The club bought a lot of houses around the ground in his time as chairman, as part of his plans for stadium development. Im not sure if they went in part of the great everton sell off.

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You never said we should accept mediocracy, but you did say we should look where we come from to where we are now, saying relegation fodder. I'm saying we come from better stock than that and we should always look to being the best we can be, not being happy to be better than when we were relegation fodder. I never once said its BKs fault did i?

 

 

 

he wanted to turn the ground around, bullens being an end and gwladys being a side. Knock the school down and build it on the eileen craven site (which has now been sold off). This obviously never happened as he left the club, but he still has the designs now. The club bought a lot of houses around the ground in his time as chairman, as part of his plans for stadium development. Im not sure if they went in part of the great everton sell off.

 

 

But this isnt about the history of Everton Football Club its about Bill Kenwrights reign as Chairman so anything before that is irrelevant

 

 

I agree with you that we should always strive to be the best we can and I also agree we cant go any further under BK.

 

What I am saying is that the club was constantly teetering on the edge of relegation and looking to implode before he took over and while he certainly isnt the sole reason for turning the club around he certainly had a significant part to play and people should remember that before they slag him off

 

 

And as for that Red T***s plans for the ground they were all pie in the sky. He wouldnt have got permission to close the school and then there is the small matter of Goodison being surrounded by private resedential housing

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But this isnt about the history of Everton Football Club its about Bill Kenwrights reign as Chairman so anything before that is irrelevant

 

 

I agree with you that we should always strive to be the best we can and I also agree we cant go any further under BK.

 

What I am saying is that the club was constantly teetering on the edge of relegation and looking to implode before he took over and while he certainly isnt the sole reason for turning the club around he certainly had a significant part to play and people should remember that before they slag him off

 

 

And as for that Red T***s plans for the ground they were all pie in the sky. He wouldnt have got permission to close the school and then there is the small matter of Goodison being surrounded by private resedential housing

 

 

Kenwright will be the first chairman that we will not have won a trophy under in the pasxt 20 odd years, however I am not using that as something to beat him with. The fact is the top division has changed, the last time we won a trophy, people were still watching serie A for the best players (we all got excited over Ravanelli?!) - we need something groundbreaking to turn us into the financial force we once were, with an old stadium, it is the first time Everton can class themselves outside of the elite. Relegation would see this club go into admin, investment would see us contend for the title, that I believe.

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Kenwright will be the first chairman that we will not have won a trophy under in the pasxt 20 odd years, however I am not using that as something to beat him with. The fact is the top division has changed, the last time we won a trophy, people were still watching serie A for the best players (we all got excited over Ravanelli?!) - we need something groundbreaking to turn us into the financial force we once were, with an old stadium, it is the first time Everton can class themselves outside of the elite. Relegation would see this club go into admin, investment would see us contend for the title, that I believe.

 

 

Thats because of the top 4s monoply on the game not beceause of any of BKs short comings (except maybe cash)

 

I have already said that I agree that we need to find a new owner if we are to move forward so I cant really see where your going with this

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And as for that Red T***s plans for the ground they were all pie in the sky. He wouldnt have got permission to close the school and then there is the small matter of Goodison being surrounded by private resedential housing

 

the school wouldnt have been closed, read my post, he wanted to build them a new school on the eileen craven site, and he started buying the houses for the club.

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I'm on the fence when it comes to Kenwright. Sometimes I'm in 'BK out' mode other times I'm in a 'better the devil you know' type mode.

But as someone said earlier a billionaire coming in to buy us is NO guarantee of success, especially now with a few clubs having already been taken over. Of course if more and more clubs do get taken over then there is a growing possibility of EFC being left behind.

On the other hand if (and its a big IF) if Everton can somehow gain some sort of success without going down the billionaire route IMAGINE how more satisfying that would be.

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I'm on the fence when it comes to Kenwright. Sometimes I'm in 'BK out' mode other times I'm in a 'better the devil you know' type mode.

But as someone said earlier a billionaire coming in to buy us is NO guarantee of success, especially now with a few clubs having already been taken over. Of course if more and more clubs do get taken over then there is a growing possibility of EFC being left behind.

On the other hand if (and its a big IF) if Everton can somehow gain some sort of success without going down the billionaire route IMAGINE how more satisfying that would be.

 

 

It would be satisfying as it is highly unlikely. I think the logistics work against it happening.

 

To be successful, your team needs to have better components - the better the components, the better the team which is ultimately the players. The best players will want to be reimbursed according to their ability. If you were better than your opponent and he was earning twice as much as you - would you be satisfied? Nope. You will want the same money at the very least, we have a wage structure that would barely accomodate players such as John O'Shea - would we win the title with 11 John O'sheas?

 

When players prove themselves to be better than their peers they will look to be rewarded, would you sign a 5 year deal for a team knowing that they are going to sell their best players when the top spenders come knocking? - not if you are ambitous.

 

Fact is, with our debts, income, and current expenditure we are not in a position to compete for the best players, we have had to rely on some canny transfer dealings, and when these players are revealed as bargains, your Man City's will come knocking ala Lescott and now apparently Pienaar. We are in a constant battle to keep the wolf from the door. Very depressing.

 

I would sooner take the chance on a billionaire not following through on all promises than exist with the current excuses from a chairman who loves the club. What have we got to lose?

 

In 4 years all our flagship players (Arteta, Jags, Pienaar, Cahill, Howard, etc) will be approaching the age where they are looking at their last contract - which means that their sell on value will be negligible - at peak that is somewhere in the region of £70m pounds worth of footballer. An average net spend of £4m a year will contribute £16m to replace that lot - highly unlikely. My guess is that they will be sold before it get's to that stage as we can't afford to run them into retiremnt so to speak.

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http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jun/03/english-premier-league-debt

 

Summary of EPL clubs' accounts to end of May 2008.

 

I know the situation is a year out of date, but let's look at the facts. We have the eighth biggest turnover in the Premier League, like everyone else, we're trailing the 'Big Four' who dominate trophies and revenues by a mile. But out of those that turned over more than us, Newcastle have been relegated and Pompey, despite winning the FA Cup two seasons ago, now look favourites to follow them this season - I think we're all agreed we'd rather not be those two. Spurs are the fifth biggest earners in the league, but bar the League Cup, haven't done much on the pitch to show for it - they're not in Europe again this season afterall. Same goes for Man City. So in terms of 'success' on the pitch equating with earning potential, it's clearly us, Spurs, Villa and Man City making up the chasing pack behind the big four - pretty much as we knew, then.

 

In terms of debt - we have the fourth lowest debt in the Premier League. So why do people keep talking about our 'dire' financial situation? Chelsea, Fulham and now of course Man City are the only clubs in the league with interest-free loans from big-money investors - what you would call hard cash injection. But look at the losses Chelsea and City are making (City will no doubt turnover more this year with all the interest their new owner brings, but without European football they will still make a substantial loss.) And more to the point, look at the losses, driven by interest repayments, Manure are making. I think Hafnia suggested that relegation would see us go into financial meltdown. What would happen to Man united - and what might happen to Liverpool in the more immediate future (hopefully) if they don't qualify for the Champions League? How long will Abromovich put up with not winning the Champions League before he looks to recoup the £700m he's put into the club?

 

The point I'm trying to make is this - there's a fine balance in achieving success on the field and overstretching yourself to achieve it. Leeds have learnt it to their cost, Liverpool could do if they don't qualify for the CL this season, coz Hicks and Gillet will not be able to finance £280m of debt. Chelsea, Man City, even Man United are playing a dangerous game be running at a financial loss in order to achieve success - you can't do that forever.

 

In purely financial terms, we are a very prudently run club, so to get back to the topic, it is unfair to criticse Kenwright for that. We have had to take drastic action to cut the spiralling debt that had us by the balls in the 90s - tight wage structure, sales of assets, raising transfer funds through sales of players etc. Whatever Hafnia says, we've done this pretty well - bringing players like Arteta, Pienaar, Yakubu, Saha, Jagielka, Cahill, Fellaini, Bilyaletdinov, Baines and Heitinga to the club has made us much stronger than we would ever have been by keeping Rooney and Lescott.

 

I'm not for a moment saying we should be thankful and accept what we've got - I want us to be the best too, I just happen to think we've got a pretty good platform for going forward and i don't see the point of exaggerating to leverage a point by talking about us being relegated or heading for financial turmoil when neither is on the cards. It isn't cash we're crying out for, it's a better business brain, someone who can see a way of increasing turnover steadily so we can clear the last of the debt and start paying more in wages and transfer fees. And let's be honest - as good as some of Moyes's signings have been, he hasn't used all the money at his disposal that wisely - look at Koldrup, Beattie, Johnson etc. We got a real lesson in how to spend money by Benfica - they've had their financial problems, but look at the team Jesus has built on a relative shoe string.

 

If we could just get our head round a stadium plan that would boost reveunue by £20-£30m a year, keeping debt manageable while maintaining success on the pitch so we could attract further investment, loosening the wage structure and freeing ourselves from the sell-to-buy cycle, I can see it being us, Villa and Spurs competing for the title in five years. Sounds dead easy...

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