duncanmckenzieismagic Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 http://www.mirrorfoo...icle224147.html I have to admit to some weary dismay at the reaction to this column last week. Usually, I enjoy the debate, and even criticism of my articles - of which there is much, usually strident - but the sheer cynicism I encountered when discussing the tenure of Bill Kenwright at Everton was simply depressing. You'd have thought that fans of the club would appreciate some support in what has been a difficult start to the season. But no. Mention that Everton have the best team, best squad and best manager since the glory years of the 1980s, and you get shouted down for apparently taking a bung. If Everton have been managed so badly, then why have they qualified for Europe consistently over the past five years? If they are managed so badly, then why have they broken their transfer record consistently over the past five years? This is said not to gloss over the facts, but merely to highlight that all is not doom and gloom at Goodison. Of course there are problems at the club. Of course there have been mistakes, and of course I didn't go into the details, because - put simply - that wasn't the point of the article. The point was this. It is easy to criticise, it is easy to say where a football club should be, and who should be owning it. It is harder, much harder, to get the right people. Just look at Liverpool. There were wild celebrations when the current owners won control of Anfield, after it was revealed that the rival investors, DIC, had a blueprint to simply grow the value of the club over the next eight years and sell on, at a hugely inflated profit. There was genuine horror at the thought of Middle East investors making a quick buck out of Liverpool, and the Americans were seen as saviours. Now the same people doing the celebrating back then are taking to the streets to demand that the club is sold.....to DIC. I'd love to know where these benevolent billionaires are hiding, that are going to pour their money into Everton as an act of charity. And I'd love to know what is good enough for those Everton fans who want to drive Kenwright out of the city? Arab billions? There's always Manchester City. The club has big debts, but in comparison to most Premier League rivals, they are sustainable. The likes of Portsmouth and West Ham would love to be in Everton's position, not to mention Newcastle or Leeds. Or dare I say it, Liverpool. Kenwright is no saint, but there are worse owners. Much worse. He is an Everton fan, a real fan, and that is no bad thing. He is not a guy sitting at a desk half way round the world plotting business graphs and looking at profit charts, waiting for his pay day on an investment he has no knowledge of or feel for. And a chairman who has presided over sustained success, taking a debt-ridden (and it was debt-ridden under Peter Johnson) club from a perennial relegation battle and transforming them into a consistent top six side is not the worse chairman you can have. In the process, he has hired a manager who is already amongst the top five in the Premier League, and top 20 in Europe, a manager who has the potential to rival the very best there has ever been. And he has kept that manager at Goodison Park for the best part of a decade, and counting. And that manager has been backed to the extent that he has built an exciting squad, which has real strength in depth, and real talent. A squad that - when everyone is fit - is good enough to threaten the top four, and challenge for European honours. And that final sentence, that was the point of my article. Maddock hit back in The Mirror and I have to say I agree 100% with everything he has to say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzp7zy Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) Agree. And I have to say if you don't agree with most of what's written and the sentiment behind it then you would have to question your judgement and whether you want what's best for the club - rather than questioning the chairman's or manager's... Edited November 17, 2009 by SharpysVolley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Sentimental drivel, IMO obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Some decent responses too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted November 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Sentimental drivel, IMO obviously. Which bits dont you agree with then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Which bits dont you agree with then? Pretty much all of it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Cor blimey Mr Maddock!!! Just when you thought it was safe to go back into the water!!! Some of the fans comments fly right back at him with more questions, this I like! I don't think I have ever seen a chairman attract so much attention for the magician like ways the club manager has managed to run a football club on a shoe string. It's almost like Andrew Ridgley getting the rights to Careless Whisper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Pretty much all of it . No come on - it's a piece of piss to keep knocking things down, a lot harder to build them - what's your blueprint for success? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Some decent responses too Christ - most of those responses make me really depressed to be an Everton fan, I couldn't agree less with the majority of them and the sheer pigheaded tone of them makes me genuinely angry. There's lots of talk about Maddock's 'lack of research', but then all sorts of people making totally unsubstantiated claims about levels of debt, club being 'technically insolvent', 'two thirds of prem teams being in a better financial state than us' - one joker even says something along the lines of 'you should read the Everton forums to see the truth of why we're so angry with Kenwright', as if all the overinflated opinion spouted on places like this should be taken as gospel! And yeah, before anyone starts, this is just my opinion, but if i'm really in a minority among blues (which now appears i am) in thinking Kenwright hasn't done a bad job for the club, then bollox to you, i'm gonna shout even louder. I've said I'm against Kirkby and agree with the criticism of Kenwirght for that, BUT if you can't see the connection between the steady, stable, gradual if unspectacular progress the club has made behind the scenes under Kenwright with the undoubted over-achieving it has done on the pitch under Moyes, quite frankly you don't know what you're talking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 The thing that has amused me today is the universal (and completely un-ironic) Evertonian creaming of pants over Mikel's interview... "I have been in other football Clubs and I’m telling you this is a special one. People say we are a family – we really are. We really are different and we really do things differently from other clubs. Maybe people don’t realise sometimes how the Club works on the inside but we have got really good people.” Would we have that with a board full of Russian money launderers or Saudi Oil zillionaires? Would we bollox. I like Bill and I make no secret of it. I have no problem with people who don't like him and put forward a rational argument as to why they don't like him. I do have a problem with people (few and far between on here but rife on other forums) who suggest he is in it to line his own pockets and that his search for investment is a smokescreen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted November 18, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Pretty much all of it . Hmmmm so you dont agree that we have the best team/squad & manager since the 80's? Which side / manager was better? I would also have thought the FACT that we have qualified for Europe consistently over the past 5 years was pretty much indisputible but hey! I would also have thought it was pretty obvious that we are in better shape, both on and off the pitch, since PJ left Also a little bit surprised that you dont agree that when everybody is fit we have a squad good enough to challenge for trophies in Europe But hey each to thier own and all that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Pretty much implies not all, get it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 (edited) Christ - most of those responses make me really depressed to be an Everton fan, I couldn't agree less with the majority of them and the sheer pigheaded tone of them makes me genuinely angry. There's lots of talk about Maddock's 'lack of research', but then all sorts of people making totally unsubstantiated claims about levels of debt, club being 'technically insolvent', 'two thirds of prem teams being in a better financial state than us' - one joker even says something along the lines of 'you should read the Everton forums to see the truth of why we're so angry with Kenwright', as if all the overinflated opinion spouted on places like this should be taken as gospel! And yeah, before anyone starts, this is just my opinion, but if i'm really in a minority among blues (which now appears i am) in thinking Kenwright hasn't done a bad job for the club, then bollox to you, i'm gonna shout even louder. I've said I'm against Kirkby and agree with the criticism of Kenwirght for that, BUT if you can't see the connection between the steady, stable, gradual if unspectacular progress the club has made behind the scenes under Kenwright with the undoubted over-achieving it has done on the pitch under Moyes, quite frankly you don't know what you're talking about Unspectacular progress behind the scenes? I think the amount of chief execs we have had in recent years points to something very spectacular behind the scenes - of which we do not know about. The steady progress you refer to is Moyes successful dealings in the bargain basement with success owing to a team spirit that at times has been built on a siege mentality. I can't see anything that has gone on from a commercial aspect that has made me think that anyone else is due plaudits. So if you know commercially what I do not know, please enlighten me. Again to repeat many a blue's opinion, the progress has been made in spite of, not because of Kenwright and co. When players such as Arteta comment on the 'family' aspect of the club, again surely that is credit to Moyes, the backroom staff and the players, unless Mikel has a masters degree in econometrics and has been doing his bit to help out the guys in power suits who spend their days working out how to make our club profitable without sacrificing playing staff. Edited November 18, 2009 by Hafnia2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 When players such as Arteta comment on the 'family' aspect of the club, again surely that is credit to Moyes, the backroom staff and the players... Of course it is. How stupid of me not to realise. Nothing at all to do with the boss. Your impeccable reasoning has helped me to see the error of my ways. KENWRIGHT OUT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 I like Bill and I make no secret of it. I have no problem with people who don't like him and put forward a rational argument as to why they don't like him. I do have a problem with people (few and far between on here but rife on other forums) who suggest he is in it to line his own pockets and that his search for investment is a smokescreen. i like him as a bloke, i dont think hes out to line his own pockets, and i do believe hes looking for investment. But i dont think for one minute he'll find investment, i think finding a buyer for the club is more likely than finding someone to back him running the club. If you had the money would you back someone with no proven business track record? thats my only current gripe, the others are in the past and will just upset me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Unspectacular progress behind the scenes? I think the amount of chief execs we have had in recent years points to something very spectacular behind the scenes - of which we do not know about. The steady progress you refer to is Moyes successful dealings in the bargain basement with success owing to a team spirit that at times has been built on a siege mentality. I can't see anything that has gone on from a commercial aspect that has made me think that anyone else is due plaudits. So if you know commercially what I do not know, please enlighten me. Again to repeat many a blue's opinion, the progress has been made in spite of, not because of Kenwright and co. When players such as Arteta comment on the 'family' aspect of the club, again surely that is credit to Moyes, the backroom staff and the players, unless Mikel has a masters degree in econometrics and has been doing his bit to help out the guys in power suits who spend their days working out how to make our club profitable without sacrificing playing staff. Record turn over every year( its tripled since the days of PJ), new state of the art training ground, the biggest shirt sponsorship in the clubs history, the biggest commercial deal in the clubs history(kitbag), the 2 new club shops and last but not least getting Tesco & Knowsley to stump up for our new ground Oh and who do you think appointed Moyes and who stuck by him when most people were calling for his head? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Record turn over every year( its tripled since the days of PJ), new state of the art training ground, the biggest shirt sponsorship in the clubs history, the biggest commercial deal in the clubs history(kitbag), the 2 new club shops and last but not least getting Tesco & Knowsley to stump up for our new ground Oh and who do you think appointed Moyes and who stuck by him when most people were calling for his head? ^^^ Thats a very good argument ^^^. Apart from the Tesco and Knowsley jobbie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Record turn over every year( its tripled since the days of PJ), new state of the art training ground, the biggest shirt sponsorship in the clubs history, the biggest commercial deal in the clubs history(kitbag), the 2 new club shops and last but not least getting Tesco & Knowsley to stump up for our new ground Oh and who do you think appointed Moyes and who stuck by him when most people were calling for his head? There are some aspects off the field that have improved, but what about the debt that has increased quite dramatically since Kenwright came in? Then we've sold off everything we own apart from Goodison, even that state of the art training ground was sold before it was even built. Also, Kenwright has piled mortgage ontop of mortgage and taken out loan after loan. That doesn't look so good does it? I'm much like Steve; I don't think he's a bad man and I appreciate that he's a blue but he has to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Also, Kenwright has piled mortgage ontop of mortgage and taken out loan after loan. But what's the alternative? He's not got any money to invest and DM needs cash to improve the squad. If he doesn't provide the funds everyone rants on that he must go because he's not backing the manager, if he does provide it (the only way he currently can) he's got to go because he's saddling the club with debt. The man can't win . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 I like Bill and I make no secret of it. I have no problem with people who don't like him and put forward a rational argument as to why they don't like him. I do have a problem with people (few and far between on here but rife on other forums) who suggest he is in it to line his own pockets and that his search for investment is a smokescreen. im with you here Mike. I like Bill, and love the fact that he is a blue. if you dont like him, at least come up with a decent arguement as to why not. im not going to repeat everything thats already been said, theres no point. Just dont forget, we got to where we are today with BKs help. the mirror article is spot on too. i think that some evertonians got a taste of relative sucess, got greedy, want more and more but dont want to wait for it. i too want sucess, but im happy to wait for it, knowing that when it comes (and it will come) it will have been won through hard work and team work. it wont be a 'bought' sucess, which will carry so much more meaning to me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) But what's the alternative? He's not got any money to invest and DM needs cash to improve the squad. If he doesn't provide the funds everyone rants on that he must go because he's not backing the manager, if he does provide it (the only way he currently can) he's got to go because he's saddling the club with debt. The man can't win . That's why I have the view that he needs to go, he doesn't have the finances to run a Championship club, nevermind a PL side. Edited November 19, 2009 by Romey 1878 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted November 19, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Pretty much implies not all, get it? Lol " pretty much all of it" implies that you disagree with the vast majority of it so no I dont get it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 Unspectacular progress behind the scenes? I think the amount of chief execs we have had in recent years points to something very spectacular behind the scenes - of which we do not know about. The steady progress you refer to is Moyes successful dealings in the bargain basement with success owing to a team spirit that at times has been built on a siege mentality. I can't see anything that has gone on from a commercial aspect that has made me think that anyone else is due plaudits. So if you know commercially what I do not know, please enlighten me. Again to repeat many a blue's opinion, the progress has been made in spite of, not because of Kenwright and co. When players such as Arteta comment on the 'family' aspect of the club, again surely that is credit to Moyes, the backroom staff and the players, unless Mikel has a masters degree in econometrics and has been doing his bit to help out the guys in power suits who spend their days working out how to make our club profitable without sacrificing playing staff. So where do you get this impression that it's 'us v them' in the Everton backroom, Moyes and his players versus the 'power suits', the former struggling endlessly to overcome the obstacles put in their way by their masters? Is that really how you think it is? Hasn't Moyes himself come out and said what a great, supportive chairman Kenwright is, how his relationship with his boss has been one of the major factors in him staying at Everton and in the team's rise up the Premier League? Do you suddenly not trust 'magician' Moyes's point of view on that, or do you just conveniently chose to forget that your idol is one of Kenwright's most vocal supporters at the club, and happens to be the manager? All this 'in spite of Kenwright' stuff is nonsense - give me one concrete example where a decision Kenwright has taken has seriously damaged the progress of the club on the pitch, instead of talking vaguely about murky goings on behind the scenes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 There are some aspects off the field that have improved, but what about the debt that has increased quite dramatically since Kenwright came in? Then we've sold off everything we own apart from Goodison, even that state of the art training ground was sold before it was even built. Also, Kenwright has piled mortgage ontop of mortgage and taken out loan after loan. That doesn't look so good does it? I'm much like Steve; I don't think he's a bad man and I appreciate that he's a blue but he has to go. It hasn't - what figures are you looking at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogs Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 im with you here Mike. I like Bill, and love the fact that he is a blue. if you dont like him, at least come up with a decent arguement as to why not. im not going to repeat everything thats already been said, theres no point. Just dont forget, we got to where we are today with BKs help. the mirror article is spot on too. i think that some evertonians got a taste of relative sucess, got greedy, want more and more but dont want to wait for it. i too want sucess, but im happy to wait for it, knowing that when it comes (and it will come) it will have been won through hard work and team work. it wont be a 'bought' sucess, which will carry so much more meaning to me.... Spot on mate couldn't agree more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) Record turn over every year( its tripled since the days of PJ), new state of the art training ground, the biggest shirt sponsorship in the clubs history, the biggest commercial deal in the clubs history(kitbag), the 2 new club shops and last but not least getting Tesco & Knowsley to stump up for our new ground Oh and who do you think appointed Moyes and who stuck by him when most people were calling for his head? im in danger of sounding like a real PJ fan, but we havent got 2 new shops. PJ opened the one at goodison (and still rents the shop to EFC) and the other shop was opened and run by Kitbag, but i'll give you that one. do not try to make the Tesco/Knowsley stump up for the ground as a positive argument. and if you do think Tesco are paying for this, please read the open letter by Terry himself on evertonfc.com the mirror article is spot on too. i think that some evertonians got a taste of relative sucess, got greedy, want more and more but dont want to wait for it. i too want sucess, but im happy to wait for it, knowing that when it comes (and it will come) it will have been won through hard work and team work. it wont be a 'bought' sucess, which will carry so much more meaning to me.... i think you miss a lot of the fear we have. its not a case of wanting success now, im scared of losing the club completely. we are in massive debt, people always say not as much as the big boys, but they bring in a lot more cash to cover them. we are on the brink! we have sold everything we own apart from GP (and bellefield but with no PP we wont sell it to anybody) i just want someone to come in who can stabilise the club, not arsed about buying all the worlds stars, just let us run from scratch again, that would give us a transfer budget of £15m+ each summer. maybe even buy back finch farm. but just to make us safe is priority number one for me. It hasn't - what figures are you looking at? oh my god, you dont even look into any of this before posting. anybody can go and find the company accounts, they are clear for anyone to see. we have increased debt year on year. Edited November 19, 2009 by StevO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 What figures are you looking at nogs? The debt has increased around £65million since 1999. Have a look at this site - http://www.scribd.com/SwerveEFC - a load of published accounts since mid Johnson era. SteveO - You Johnsonite!! You know what.. PJ might be a good guest for Talking Toffee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 You know what.. PJ might be a good guest for Talking Toffee. i may be able to sort that out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 If you can sort it... sort it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) Record turn over every year( its tripled since the days of PJ), new state of the art training ground, the biggest shirt sponsorship in the clubs history, the biggest commercial deal in the clubs history(kitbag), the 2 new club shops and last but not least getting Tesco & Knowsley to stump up for our new ground Oh and who do you think appointed Moyes and who stuck by him when most people were calling for his head? I'll do this in stages: 1. Record turnover every year??? You would like to think so, inflation has a lot to do with that. In the words of Bill after anouncing record turnover: "Our debt is a big debt and a worrying debt, but it is manageable because of our performance on the field and because we do well each year as a business, thanks to David (Moyes). But it is too much debt that every year is going to be added to" "Every summer it's the same problem. David must think 'every summer, how can I do it?'. He must be sitting there looking at these figures thinking 'they have given me nothing again and they want the Champions League'. "But we do manage to sustain the debt. We have a good bank and we have had to go to them again this summer. All we can do is borrow and that's what we are doing again this year to give David not nearly enough money to take a club that's finished fifth in the last two seasons even higher. 2. Finch Farm was acquired in 2006 by Everton who later sold the land on for £2.1 million and then had it developed to the club’s specification by developers ROM Capital (an arm of the aAim Group). On completion, Finch Farm was valued by ROM Capital at £17 M. Everton signed a 50-year tenancy agreement with ROM Capital for Finch Farm.[2] Everton have an option to purchase the site after 5 years. So we are renting somewhere whilst we are lumbered with the problematic site in Bellefield which can not be built on. 3. Biggest shirt sponsorship in the clubs history - £2m a year. Let's put that into perspective... Liverpool have signed one worth £20m a year with Standard Chartered, Man City and Spurs and Arsenal more than double what we are on £5m a year, Fulham receive £4m a year from LG. 4. Kitbag haver the rights to sell our kit which is estimated at £3m a year. Based on the fact that it is Le Coq Sportif, I can't see your neutral fan clamouring for it ala Nike/Adidas. The deal we got from Le Coq Sportif was not much better than the one Man City had with them when they were struggling in the league. Before they went to Reebok. Again - is it a success story??? I think I won't even get onto the club shops and knowsley stadium move as I am now suitably depressed. So where do you get this impression that it's 'us v them' in the Everton backroom, Moyes and his players versus the 'power suits', the former struggling endlessly to overcome the obstacles put in their way by their masters? Is that really how you think it is? Hasn't Moyes himself come out and said what a great, supportive chairman Kenwright is, how his relationship with his boss has been one of the major factors in him staying at Everton and in the team's rise up the Premier League? Do you suddenly not trust 'magician' Moyes's point of view on that, or do you just conveniently chose to forget that your idol is one of Kenwright's most vocal supporters at the club, and happens to be the manager? All this 'in spite of Kenwright' stuff is nonsense - give me one concrete example where a decision Kenwright has taken has seriously damaged the progress of the club on the pitch, instead of talking vaguely about murky goings on behind the scenes. Where did I say that it is us v them in terms of players/coaching staff versus powersuits? Must have been where you read the financials.... Edited November 19, 2009 by Hafnia2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.