Lescott Vs Heitinga

[Memmaclub]

Trying to be purely objective and worried that bigging him up maybe a curse, but isn't Jonny a lot better than Lescott and even (on current form) Distin isn't a bad replacement?

[Romey 1878]

Based on Lescott not looking half the player without Jags and Heitinga managing to look class even without Jags then we definitely got the better deal in having Heitinga.

[MikeO]

If it was a boxing match it'd be stopped in the first.

 

Lescott looks like a liability this season, Johnny's been fantastic.

[EFC-Paul]

If it was a boxing match it'd be stopped in the first.

 

Lescott looks like a liability this season, Johnny's been fantastic.

 

Haha i like the analogy, We all know Lescott is average without another solid player next to him and as said Johnny has looked as solid as anyone in his first season in a new league and i expect as long as Jags is his old self we will have one formidable pairing in the middle of defence.

 

So for me not much of a contest both offer different things but all-round Johnny for me is a far better defender.

[Bill]

I think the way in which the transfer deal unfolded has clouded some peoples judgement.

 

Lescott was a massive plus for us, in three seasons here he was probably in our top 3 players every season, won it the first year, pipped by Arteta for the second, and pipped by Jags for the 3rd.

To buy at £5 million and sell 3years later for £24m is also a brilliant bit of business.

I hold nothing against Lescott for trying to improve himself career wise or money wise, as i'm sure 99% of us given the chance would do the same.

 

Not playing as well for City as he played for us, but that does'nt detract from how good he was while he was here, and i'd take him back anytime.

 

 

PS.... I'll wait 3 seasons and make a comparison before deciding if Joleon or Jonny is better.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

I think the way in which the transfer deal unfolded has clouded some peoples judgement.

 

Lescott was a massive plus for us, in three seasons here he was probably in our top 3 players every season, won it the first year, pipped by Arteta for the second, and pipped by Jags for the 3rd.

To buy at £5 million and sell 3years later for £24m is also a brilliant bit of business.

I hold nothing against Lescott for trying to improve himself career wise or money wise, as i'm sure 99% of us given the chance would do the same.

 

Not playing as well for City as he played for us, but that does'nt detract from how good he was while he was here, and i'd take him back anytime.

 

 

PS.... I'll wait 3 seasons and make a comparison before deciding if Joleon or Jonny is better.

 

 

All very true however its still a no brainer Johnny H is by far the better player I can only assume that Memma is very bored in work to even start it as a thread!

[Matt]

Johnny boy, but i was always a fan of him, even at Ajax when i lived in Amsterdam. He is a better defender, no doubt but Lescott gave us more going forward, 14 goals in 3 years for a defender is fantastic! If Johnny starts scoring like that then its clearly a no brainer, but lets give him 3 years like Bill said before we judge.

 

Also have nothing against him. He wasnt an Evertonian who left for more money and sucess, he was a player who wanted more money and sucess. This would be like me leaving for the companies competition because they offer more chance of acheivement and a bigger wage package. I know i would be tested. It hurt so much because he was a very good player, made excellent with his partnership with Jags and crucial to our recent sucess. He is still a good player but he hasnt found that same partnership at City. We havnt seen how Jags will play without Lescott either! Maybe they carried each other (though im not sure i believe that, just trying to give a balanced arguement)...

 

Jags and Johnny could be the best CB pairing in the league next season but lets see how Jags gets back into the flow of things. Distin on recent form has done a decent job, but he is not a replacement, he is a temporary plug without which we would leak goals. 5.5m is a lot of money for a plug but we needed it...

Edited February 23, 2010 by galacticaracnid

[marcopaulo]

i just hope we keep the likes of distin and yobo around though because there is a serious lack of height with jags and johnny...we'd need someone who can leap like yobo against the likes of carew, crouch etc..i just worry sometimes that they are too similar to make a good pairing but we will see

[nogs]

A lot of Lescott's best performances for us came playing left-back, and that's where he got a lot of his goals from as well. On his day he could be a fearless, dominant defender who read the game brilliantly and looked class with the ball at his feet - a genuine international. But, and this was always the big 'but' with Lescott, it wasn't 'his day' just a little bit too often, he was prone to lapses in concentration and mistakes, and when his head wasn't quite right, he could be a liability - I will always remember Stephen Dalmat for Liege making an absolute mug of him all night at Goodison, he was truly dreadful that night.

 

The reason why Heitinga, and Jags, are better centre backs is that those kind of mistakes are few and far between (yeah I know there was the Jags howler vs Villa, but did he put another foot wrong all season?), and the truly rank performances virtually non-existent. I've never seen Jags have a poor game playing CB for us, and i don't think Johnny has made a single error playing there all season. That's what you need from a CB, just like a goalkeeper - total commitment and consistency. So yeah, Lescott by and large had a great three years for us, and on his day was world class, but on evidence of this season I'd take Heitinga any day because he just looks rock solid and reliable week in, week out.

[MikeO]

...in three seasons here he was probably in our top 3 players every season, won it the first year, pipped by Arteta for the second, and pipped by Jags for the 3rd.

 

Last season he came eleventh in the TT player of the season.

 

Pienaar 243

Jagielka 229

Fellaini 219

Baines 186

Arteta 164

Cahill 140

Neville 134

Osman 126

Saha 71

Howard 66

Lescott 59

 

He got one MOTM against Villa which accounted for fifteen of his votes.

 

Given that he played in forty-seven games over the season that means he averaged less than one vote a game for the rest of it.

[Matt]

Last season he came eleventh in the TT player of the season.

 

Pienaar 243

Jagielka 229

Fellaini 219

Baines 186

Arteta 164

Cahill 140

Neville 134

Osman 126

Saha 71

Howard 66

Lescott 59

 

He got one MOTM against Villa which accounted for fifteen of his votes.

 

Given that he played in forty-seven games over the season that means he averaged less than one vote a game for the rest of it.

take it all back! he was crap and glad we got rid of him!

[carlmc25]

Last season he came eleventh in the TT player of the season.

 

Pienaar 243

Jagielka 229

Fellaini 219

Baines 186

Arteta 164

Cahill 140

Neville 134

Osman 126

Saha 71

Howard 66

Lescott 59

 

He got one MOTM against Villa which accounted for fifteen of his votes.

 

Given that he played in forty-seven games over the season that means he averaged less than one vote a game for the rest of it.

That is a joke though Mike, the second half of last season I actually thought he was regularly outperforming Jagielka but due to Jags being flavour of the month for his no nonsense all action style, Jags kept getting votes and Lescott kept getting overlooked. No one can honestly say that Saha did more for us, or Fellaini who by and large (a few goals aside) was useless. Lescott, some dodgy early season form aside, was regularly excellent for us and I think a lot of people have short memories. I totally agree with Bill. He was better in the air than Jagielka (corner lapses aside) and like marco, I too worry that Jags and Heitinga are a little small to play together. I'm hoping that Yobo gets a run in the team soon as I still believe that he is potentially our best defender.

 

Lescott would have been feeling the pressure and his head must have been a little messed up after all the goings on in the Summer, I still expect him to turn out to be a decent player and would welcome him back in our squad no question.

 

As for someone saying Heitinga hasn't put a foot wrong, he made a few dodgy mistakes against a team recently (the exact match escapes me - it was the one were he brought a man down on the edge of the box and we got away with a free kick) where he let a guy go through on goal and he also could have given away a penalty. We still aren't keeping many clean sheets and for me, the derby aside, Howard has been our best player in defence this season. That being said, I do like Heitinga and I think he is consistently improving, his distribution is a real plus.

Edited February 23, 2010 by carlmc25

[MikeO]

If people voted MOTM on "flavour of the month" then how has Ossie won the last two? And how did Pip get more than twice as many votes as Lescott did last year? They've never been the flavour of anything; don't think you credit the members of TT with enough intelligence.

 

Lescott had a brilliant 07/08 for sure. Last year less so.

[pete0]

That is a joke though Mike, the second half of last season I actually thought he was regularly outperforming Jagielka but due to Jags being flavour of the month for his no nonsense all action style, Jags kept getting votes and Lescott kept getting overlooked. No one can honestly say that Saha did more for us, or Fellaini who by and large (a few goals aside) was useless. Lescott, some dodgy early season form aside, was regularly excellent for us and I think a lot of people have short memories. I totally agree with Bill. He was better in the air than Jagielka (corner lapses aside) and like marco, I too worry that Jags and Heitinga are a little small to play together. I'm hoping that Yobo gets a run in the team soon as I still believe that he is potentially our best defender.

 

Lescott would have been feeling the pressure and his head must have been a little messed up after all the goings on in the Summer, I still expect him to turn out to be a decent player and would welcome him back in our squad no question.

 

As for someone saying Heitinga hasn't put a foot wrong, he made a few dodgy mistakes against a team recently (the exact match escapes me - it was the one were he brought a man down on the edge of the box and we got away with a free kick) where he let a guy go through on goal and he also could have given away a penalty. We still aren't keeping many clean sheets and for me, the derby aside, Howard has been our best player in defence this season. That being said, I do like Heitinga and I think he is consistently improving, his distribution is a real plus.

fellaini was by most considered the signin of the season, an was our top goal scorer and very influentual. only real dissapointment was the yellow cards and tbf he shouldnt of got half of them.

[carlmc25]

I think you overestimate the validity of your motm system. Lescott was preferred, when both fit, over Jags for England usually. He was bought for £24m. Jags will never go for £24m as he is dodgy on the ball and a little weak in the air, Lescott was the classier player and was awesome in the second half of last season but continually overlooked because everyone jumped on the Jags bandwagon.

 

I mean, come on, are you telling me that Seamus Coleman has done more for us this season than Tim Howard? Is that how trustworthy motm is?

 

edit: I'm surprised City didn't come in for Fellaini for £50m looking at our motm stats for last season...

Edited February 23, 2010 by carlmc25

[MikeO]

The keeper will always struggle in any MOTM situation over a season (unless he's a genius like Nev was) but you're right on that. It's obvious that Coleman's made a lesser contribution.

 

I'm not overestimating or underestimating the validity of the system but it's the only one I have to go on. People (I believe) vote objectively on each match. The Donovan bandwagon was in full steam before the Lisbon game but he played poorly....he was the flavour of the month but got no votes.

How would people jumping on the Jagielka bandwagon explain how Pip got twice as many votes as Lescott?

 

My point now (forgetting Lescott) is that you think people vote according to image and prevailing reputation and I believe most (not all) vote purely on what they've seen over the ninety minutes in front of them.

Not going to argue it with you....I know Bill has at times voiced a similar opinion...I just think the majority of our members are able to put personal preferences aside when they vote, and I think Ossie winning the last two backs that up .

[Memmaclub]

It may be too early to tell and I agree with alot of ppl that jags + lescott was amazing however I think heits has started well and once settled could be a more than adequate replacement. It is weird someone saying jlo went for 24 mil and jags never would. A) lescott was overpriced I think if jags gets back to form there is a real danger of a man u or arsenal offering that sort of money

[carlmc25]

Ossie definitely got my vote and deservedly so, but I didn't think his performance was that much clearly better than Pienaar's say, or even Arteta's. I sometimes think people get more votes than they should due to the sheep mentality and also when someone becomes very popular with the fans. I honestly believe that during the second half of last season Jags AND Lescott were fantastic, a lot of the matches I saw I thought Lescott pipped it, yet he was getting virtually no votes and Jags raking them in nearly every time we defended well. I love Jags but I thought Lescott was harshly overlooked last season purely because he had such a nightmare start.

 

The motm system is a bit of fun and no system is perfect and I like it how it is but the fact that City wanted Lescott for £24m suggests that he was playing well.

 

I do think the voting has been better this year and in general I agree with you that the majority do vote with their heads, the problem last year was Jagielka was undoubtedly people's favourite and he was playing directly alongside Lescott, when both were playing fairly evenly the favourite won out.

[carlmc25]

It may be too early to tell and I agree with alot of ppl that jags + lescott was amazing however I think heits has started well and once settled could be a more than adequate replacement. It is weird someone saying jlo went for 24 mil and jags never would. A) lescott was overpriced I think if jags gets back to form there is a real danger of a man u or arsenal offering that sort of money

Lescott was a fantastic LB as well so I'm not sure he was overpriced, it just looks like it now. As for Jags, he is of the Carragher ilk. He's not a great passer, he's probably a little weaker in the air but he's 100% committed, fairly quick and reliable. He's not a rolls royce type player, he's a british get stuck in type player. The top teams usually want someone with a little bit of silk, which is why Lescott was always the more attractive purchase for someone as he had more class on the ball and was a little stronger in the air. I can't see Jagielka moving really and I hope he doesn't. He's a fantastic defender, just slightly limited.

 

I think you need a mix of the two, which is why Jags and Lescott/Yobo worked so well.

[pete0]

las year neville had his best season since he joined us, and was atleast twice as good as lescott las season. 1st half of the season lescott was a absolute waste of space, and most wanted him dropped. he was third choice cb behind jags an yobo and forced to play in what is arguebly is better position lb(which had got him called up 4 england previously), but he was totally unprofessionable and didnt play to his ability and should have been dropped for baines. second half of the season he played well at cb, but no better than any other avg. cb in the prem. stop tryin to make him out as better than what he was.

[carlmc25]

las year neville had his best season since he joined us, and was atleast twice as good as lescott las season. 1st half of the season lescott was a absolute waste of space, and most wanted him dropped. he was third choice cb behind jags an yobo and forced to play in what is arguebly is better position lb(which had got him called up 4 england previously), but he was totally unprofessionable and didnt play to his ability and should have been dropped for baines. second half of the season he played well at cb, but no better than any other avg. cb in the prem. stop tryin to make him out as better than what he was.

It's a mystery why he was picked for England then and why City paid £24m for a bona fide donkey when they could have bought Senderos, Distin, Dunne, Collins for less than a third of that. Neville was excellent though, I'll agree on that.

Edited February 23, 2010 by carlmc25

[Matt]

Lescott was a fantastic LB as well so I'm not sure he was overpriced, it just looks like it now. As for Jags, he is of the Carragher ilk. He's not a great passer, he's probably a little weaker in the air but he's 100% committed, fairly quick and reliable. He's not a rolls royce type player, he's a british get stuck in type player. The top teams usually want someone with a little bit of silk, which is why Lescott was always the more attractive purchase for someone as he had more class on the ball and was a little stronger in the air. I can't see Jagielka moving really and I hope he doesn't. He's a fantastic defender, just slightly limited.

 

I think you need a mix of the two, which is why Jags and Lescott/Yobo worked so well.

 

It's a mystery why he was picked for England then and why City paid £24m for a bona fide donkey when they could have bought Senderos, Distin, Dunne, Collins for less than a third of that. Neville was excellent though, I'll agree on that.

Citeh paid that much for him purely because the manager was a long time admirer, they had the cash and Hughes said if he was in the team it would help compete for the title. BK, DM and the board pushed the limits of the fee considering the length of time on his contract and the fact that Jlo was and still is twice the player Glen Johnson is. Was he worth 24 million to anyone else? Not a chance but last years transfer market was stupid, everything was blown way out of proportion with Real and Citeh's money being thrown around. That all explains his ridiculous transfer fee. Yes he is versitile and generally a good player, but 24million worth? The fact that noone else was bidding for him AT ALL should answer the question...

 

As for the England call up, he was playing well and he is versitile; good back up for CB and LB. His form was great. Capello was experimenting and he made a good impression. He will probably get another one for the world cup despite his poor form purely because Capello has sod all else to choose from.

 

As for comparing Jags to that cheatin bastard in red i should give you a rollockin! But i see where youre coming from. Surely theres a better person to compare him to than that...

 

(Oh, and fair play to Memma, good topic for discussion! much better than the previous 2, keep it up lad!)

Edited February 23, 2010 by galacticaracnid

[Finn balor]

Lescott is a very good premiership player who i think has been found out at international level. Johhny looks to be the real deal in the premiership so far and everybody raves about Vermaelan at Arsenal who cost double. Granted his goals take the headlines but i think Johhny with a good pre-season could be frighteningly good and probably would look better at international level with his passing ability. Heitenga is a year or so younger than Lescott so i am more than happy with the outcome and how good our squad looks with the Lescott sale.

[thehelmet]

Heitinga has been a consistent performer this season, and at times carried the backline together with Howard, and the fact that he has the ability to cover at both right back and as defensive mid are great arguments for his signing. Coupled with the fact that we got Bily and Distin as well for the money from the Lescott sale as well I'd say that at the moment it's a no-brainer.

 

Much like the Rooney-sale gave us (through Moyes) the chance to acquire stability and a more complete team, the Lescott sale gave us the money sorely needed to shore up our defense which through bad luck with injuries and form looked terrible.

I still believe we could have got way better than Distin from when we signed him, but with the success of Heitinga and the player I still think Bily will turn into, given time and patience, I think we got way more out of that deal than City ever can. And Distin has so far done what I believe he was signed for, as a temporary filler and back-up for CB.

 

I'm still worried about the prospect of Jags and Heitinga as a central pairing though. It's been mentioned before and it will be made apparent when faced with such as Drogba, Carew etc. They are both almost a decimeter (3-4 inches) shorter than most centrebacks. Should they cope with this however, I don't think there's a stronger central pairing in the world.

Even if I think Jags is being hyped to the extreme at the moment.

[Matt]

Ive seen this Jags and Johnny being too short rubbish coming up a few times. Go look at the MOTM thread against Chelski:

 

http://www.toffeetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=20140

 

ok, he didnt get it but the people who voted for him all commented on how he kept Drogba at bay. I remember watching Carsley against villa 2 years ago or so and he marked Carew out of the game! Why? because he had better positioning and wasnt afraid of getting stuck into him. Drogba is a faaaaaaaaaar better player than Carew but the principle is the same; Johnny is strong, his positioning is excellent and he gives as good as he gets.

 

Wasnt it Lescott who went AWOL in the Cup final last year that gave Drogba a free header?

[milky71]

some players go stale quickly at clubs and i feel lescott had gone stale during his last season

i wish we had sold him earlier for a few millless and started the season with a proper squad and had johnny h available for europe as it will cause disruption during the run in.

[thehelmet]

Ive seen this Jags and Johnny being too short rubbish coming up a few times. Go look at the MOTM thread against Chelski:

 

http://www.toffeetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=20140

 

ok, he didnt get it but the people who voted for him all commented on how he kept Drogba at bay. I remember watching Carsley against villa 2 years ago or so and he marked Carew out of the game! Why? because he had better positioning and wasnt afraid of getting stuck into him. Drogba is a faaaaaaaaaar better player than Carew but the principle is the same; Johnny is strong, his positioning is excellent and he gives as good as he gets.

 

Wasnt it Lescott who went AWOL in the Cup final last year that gave Drogba a free header?

 

Well yeah, I'm just saying with the general height of our team they'll fit in perfectly. But just as with our midfield physical battles will be more taxing, and even if he keeps Drogba in his pocket like last week there's a weakness there. To be fair though it's the one weakness I can see, and if they can cope with the taller/stronger players by way of the off-balance nudge and tight marking then there's really no concern. They'll just have to work harder on positioning and composure/concentration.

[Matt]

Well yeah, I'm just saying with the general height of our team they'll fit in perfectly. But just as with our midfield physical battles will be more taxing, and even if he keeps Drogba in his pocket like last week there's a weakness there. To be fair though it's the one weakness I can see, and if they can cope with the taller/stronger players by way of the off-balance nudge and tight marking then there's really no concern. They'll just have to work harder on positioning and composure/concentration.

wasnt havin a go mate, think the heat is getting to me! I know what you mean with it but next season with Felli/Rodwells height infront of them both i dont see the issue. Besides, i think we're the only team still playing the long ball!

[Blue 250]

Heitinga's pretty good, but to be honest not as good as Lescott at his best.Dominant in both boxes, some good skill for a big'un and a goal threat at the other end.He did blow hot and cold, but then so does Yobo and I rate him pretty highly (at his best).

 

If Heitinga keeps improving, Jagielka regains his form and Yobo plays at the top end of his form, then that's a nice situaton to have.

 

Heitinga's not still growing, so what you see is what you get, and if he gets out jumped a couple of times for easy goals then, maybe play Yobo against big teams that throw lots of high balls into the area.

 

Not exactly got tall full backs have we!.....Baines, Neville, coleman and Hibbert.Even standing on each others shoulders they only come up to Crouche's chin

 

So ok, as mentioned Fellaini and/or Rodwell will have to add their height to corners and free kicks, other than that it's Moyes' problem.......Cahills small and he's not too shabby in the air, timing is important......let Heitinga train with Cahill, see if he can teach him!

 

Lescott may not have been worth £22million, but Heitinga's still got a bit to do to be as good as Lescott.I think some are letting a few bad games and their hate for a man who probably did slightly disrespect Everton cloud the fact that Lescott was a pretty dam good defender......Man City thought so.Maybe Jagielka did make Lescott look good, lets hope so.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Blue 250

[Romey 1878]

Heitinga has had no problems with being against tall strikers so far, it's something I've been impressed with due to his lack of height. So if he can be our aerial dominator then I see no reason why a Jags/Johnny partnership would have a weakness.