Matt Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 One thing he HAS to stop doing is standing still with his head in his hands after he's gone close. It's repetitive and if he didn't do it he may have chances of a follow up and score or at least reposition himself for others to find him. Yeah, its frustrating. But its just a sign of lack of maturity, coupled with disappointment knowing how important any chance is at the moment. In a way its encouraging that the does this, he knows its not acceptable and he understands the impacts. He could just shrug his shoulders and waltz about if he didn't care. Like Pad says, it can be trained out of him very easily. Its not something you can't teach, like a first touch or anything like that.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yeah, its frustrating. But its just a sign of lack of maturity, coupled with disappointment knowing how important any chance is at the moment. In a way its encouraging that the does this, he knows its not acceptable and he understands the impacts. He could just shrug his shoulders and waltz about if he didn't care. Like Pad says, it can be trained out of him very easily. Its not something you can't teach, like a first touch or anything like that.... http://statsbomb.com/2015/03/tracking-romelu-lukakus-progress/ Its amazing that anyone would think he would never develop as a player Matt and Romey 1878 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 http://statsbomb.com/2015/03/tracking-romelu-lukakus-progress/ Its amazing that anyone would think he would never develop as a player Interesting read that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yeah, its frustrating. But its just a sign of lack of maturity, coupled with disappointment knowing how important any chance is at the moment. In a way its encouraging that the does this, he knows its not acceptable and he understands the impacts. He could just shrug his shoulders and waltz about if he didn't care. Like Pad says, it can be trained out of him very easily. Its not something you can't teach, like a first touch or anything like that.... Lets not get carried away now Matt, if controlling a football was like playing a piano he was struggling to play chopsticks and now he has just learned to play the national anthem. I don't see him packing out the albert hall any time soon but maybe he can resemble a half decent piano player at the end of a drunken evening on the old piano in the corner of a pub. I'll be totally honest - I have never seen a top flight player with such a poor first touch, I'm just glad it seems to be improved. As I have said, he is always gonna do the odd shinner - you can not improve "markedly" in later years when it comes down to things that require motor skills. They cease to improve much beyond mid teens. Example:- Give a playstation controller to a 10 year old child who has never played before and give the controller to a 23 year old who has never played before - map the progress in terms of dexterity etc. There will be days when it is poor, most top level players control the ball without thinking, but Rom as I have said seems to be focussing on just controlling the ball and not the next phase of play. Thats fine. Players like Bergkamp, Henry, Berbatov had fantatsic ability that meant they could use the first touch to enable their second touch to take a player out the game. Anyways, less of that, it seems to be improved somewhat long may it continue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Lets not get carried away now Matt, if controlling a football was like playing a piano he was struggling to play chopsticks and now he has just learned to play the national anthem. I don't see him packing out the albert hall any time soon but maybe he can resemble a half decent piano player at the end of a drunken evening on the old piano in the corner of a pub. I'll be totally honest - I have never seen a top flight player with such a poor first touch, I'm just glad it seems to be improved. As I have said, he is always gonna do the odd shinner - you can not improve "markedly" in later years when it comes down to things that require motor skills. They cease to improve much beyond mid teens. Example:- Give a playstation controller to a 10 year old child who has never played before and give the controller to a 23 year old who has never played before - map the progress in terms of dexterity etc. There will be days when it is poor, most top level players control the ball without thinking, but Rom as I have said seems to be focussing on just controlling the ball and not the next phase of play. Thats fine. Players like Bergkamp, Henry, Berbatov had fantatsic ability that meant they could use the first touch to enable their second touch to take a player out the game. Anyways, less of that, it seems to be improved somewhat long may it continue. Which is what I've always maintained it would. Just happy to be proven right mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Which is what I've always maintained it would. Just happy to be proven right mate It has always been down to what your expectations of this are though Matt, I am not going to say he is there yet but in the last 2 games it has been the best i've seen it - meaning miscontrols have been few and far between. I'm a poor putter in golf, some days I have the feel for it but the majority of the time i'm woeful. Lets hope Roms minimum level is higher than it was! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) It has always been down to what your expectations of this are though Matt, I am not going to say he is there yet but in the last 2 games it has been the best i've seen it - meaning miscontrols have been few and far between. I'm a poor putter in golf, some days I have the feel for it but the majority of the time i'm woeful. Lets hope Roms minimum level is higher than it was! Think I've made them clear many a time; I want him to score goals, not link up play. Mostly because it affects his positioning, but also because he hasn't got the touch of an AMC. I knew he would improve to a decent level, anyone who practices anything will improve. But do I think he will have a Silva / Messi -esq touch? No, and I've never expected him to. But good enough to link up play a bit and contribute a bit more? Always had faith he would deliver. He's doing both, linking up play and scoring, and as you said; Long may it continue Edited March 17, 2015 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Think I've made them clear many a time; I want him to score goals, not link up play. Mostly because it affects his positioning, but also because he hasn't got the touch of an AMC. I knew he would improve to a decent level, anyone who practices anything will improve. But do I think he will have a Silva / Messi -esq touch? No, and I've never expected him to. But good enough to link up play a bit and contribute a bit more? Always had faith he would deliver. He's doing both, linking up play and scoring, and as you said; Long may it continue But he needs to "link up play" - there is no way around this. He is 6ft 4, is physically imposing and as the furthermost player he needs to be able to allow the midfielders to join in attack. Otherwise it makes him one dimensional and he can be nullified "just dont leave space between the defence and goal" - and thats it. Linking up play is often phase one to a goalscoring move. Shearer was a master at it. The better the player is at it the more confidence his team mates will have in bombing forward to support. There really is no substitute for this at our level. Anyway - old ground. A big 2 games coming up - 2 wins and I think we will be in a good place to finish the season strongly and enjoy the Europa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 The amount of assists (5 or 6 I think) he has this season suggests he is linking up the play well anyway. Add those to his 17 goals as well... It's not too bad is it? Especially when you consider this is a poor season. If we get back to the levels we know we can reach then he's certainly going to be money well spent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 The amount of assists (5 or 6 I think) he has this season suggests he is linking up the play well anyway. Add those to his 17 goals as well... It's not too bad is it? Especially when you consider this is a poor season. If we get back to the levels we know we can reach then he's certainly going to be money well spent. 8 goals & 4 assists in the prem. Whilst it may appear churlish to ignore Eurpopa it is the only way we can appraise him on a level playing field. He got 15 and 6 last year. I actually think if he goes about his business the same way as he has the last two games he may well get 14-16 and 8-9. Here's hoping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) 8 goals & 4 assists in the prem. Whilst it may appear churlish to ignore Eurpopa it is the only way we can appraise him on a level playing field. He got 15 and 6 last year. I actually think if he goes about his business the same way as he has the last two games he may well get 14-16 and 8-9. Here's hoping. I'm not comparing this seasons figures to other seasons, I'm only talking about this season in isolation, so it is fair to include all goals and assists in his stats for the season. Its not like his Europa goals and assists won't be included in his career stats. When you're having a pop at him do you keep quiet during the Europa league games and only criticise a league performance? Exactly. This season we play Europa league games so they're included. Edited March 17, 2015 by Romey 1878 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 I'm not comparing this seasons figures to other seasons, I'm only talking about this season in isolation, so it is fair to include all goals and assists in his stats for the season. Its not like his Europa goals and assists won't be included in his career stats. When you're having a pop at him do you keep quiet during the Europa league games and only criticise a league performance? Exactly. This season we play Europa league games so they're included. As stated I have said he may get 14-16 goals and 8-9 assists if he carries the last 2 games form the prem - this compares as favourably as last years effort - we weren't in Europa last year so I have taken those out to normalse the comparison. It was hardly a critical post - quite the opposite, a factual post with an encouraging ending. Do I devalue his Europa efforts??? No. Quite the opposite if you look through the match threads you will see this. I had picked up that following a big eurpopa perfromance he has a poor prem performance. Interesting the fact that I have had 18 months to give a tangible critique of Rom and whilst almost most posts were critical they were backed with examples. You have had a few games of Aaron Lennon yet seem so sure that your judgement of him is unlikely to be swayed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) As stated I have said he may get 14-16 goals and 8-9 assists if he carries the last 2 games form the prem - this compares as favourably as last years effort - we weren't in Europa last year so I have taken those out to normalse the comparison. It was hardly a critical post - quite the opposite, a factual post with an encouraging ending. Do I devalue his Europa efforts??? No. Quite the opposite if you look through the match threads you will see this. I had picked up that following a big eurpopa perfromance he has a poor prem performance. Interesting the fact that I have had 18 months to give a tangible critique of Rom and whilst almost most posts were critical they were backed with examples. You have had a few games of Aaron Lennon yet seem so sure that your judgement of him is unlikely to be swayed. I haven't made a comparison though, that was my point. I'm only talking about this season. I haven't compared this seasons stats to any other. My post was only to highlight that he clearly is linking up well this season if you look at his goals and assists for this season. I didn't say you've devalued his Europa stats at all. I said, when you have a criticism of him to make do you only comment on league performances. You don't. Why? Because this season he is playing in Europa games as well as league games. How on earth have I said I'm sure my judgement of Lennon is unlikely to be swayed? All I've said is that I'm not going to change my mind after one very good performance from him :dont know: . And even if I had said that, its not like Aaron Lennon has only just popped into existence as a football player since he signed for us is it? I've watched him play plenty of times to have the opinion of him that I do. I'm not not a fan of him either tbh! When we signed him I said if he could have an end product then he'd be exactly what we've been crying out for - he's got pace to burn and he's a tricky bastard. The problem with him is that his balls into the box either usually go right over everyone or just out of play. Yesterday, he did show that he could have an end product - that pull back for Barkley was absolutely perfect. And, like you said, he won the penalty too. So I have some hope with him now. A winger or two in the summer is an absolute must for us, so he's got to put everything in until the end of the season to show he should be one of those. He's on the right track. Yep, really sounds like I've said my opinion of him won't change . Edited March 17, 2015 by Romey 1878 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 I haven't made a comparison though, that was my point. I'm only talking about this season. I haven't compared this seasons stats to any other. My post was only to highlight that he clearly is linking up well this season if you look at his goals and assists for this season. I didn't say you've devalued his Europa stats at all. I said, when you have a criticism of him to make do you only comment on league performances. You don't. Why? Because this season he is playing in Europa games as well as league games. How on earth have I said I'm sure my judgement of Lennon is unlikely to be swayed? All I've said is that I'm not going to change my mind after one very good performance from him :dont know: . And even if I had said that, its not like Aaron Lennon has only just popped into existence as a football player since he signed for us is it? I've watched him play plenty of times to have the opinion of him that I do. Yep, really sounds like I've said my opinion of him won't change . why not assess them on their seperate merits? - its been clearly stated that Rom has done well in Europe, which he has. But all too often I am seeing "HE HAS SCORED 17 GOALS" - a great headline statement 8 in 29 games in the Premier League, 1 in 3.6 games. 7 in 8 in Europa 2 in 2 in FA Cup There is a story behind those stats - in Europe he is playing teams where he is an unknown quantity. In the premier league the teams know all about him and they know how to nullify him, which is where my criticisms come in, he has had to learn how to link up play because quitye honestly he was being marked out of games, not necessarily by class players either. It may just be me but Europa comes a very distant 2nd to the premier league, and forgiv4e me for being a little harsh on the lad but some performances i've seen from him against the likes of Leicester and Crystal Palace rank as the worst I have seen from an Everton striker. Lets just hope this thread doesn't do its same old cycle where people are wondering where the rom from the last 2 games has gone (he's only 21 etc etc) and we then rinse and repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted March 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 (edited) Christ I wish I hadn't bothered to say anything now. The ONLY thing I was saying is that he is linking up well when you look at his stats. His link-up play has been questioned, rightly so, but the stats show it's not that bad as we thought or that he's improving that aspect of his game. There's no need to go into anything else. Edited March 17, 2015 by Romey 1878 Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 why not assess them on their seperate merits? - its been clearly stated that Rom has done well in Europe, which he has. But all too often I am seeing "HE HAS SCORED 17 GOALS" - a great headline statement 8 in 29 games in the Premier League, 1 in 3.6 games. 7 in 8 in Europa 2 in 2 in FA Cup There is a story behind those stats - in Europe he is playing teams where he is an unknown quantity. In the premier league the teams know all about him and they know how to nullify him, which is where my criticisms come in, he has had to learn how to link up play because quitye honestly he was being marked out of games, not necessarily by class players either. It may just be me but Europa comes a very distant 2nd to the premier league, and forgiv4e me for being a little harsh on the lad but some performances i've seen from him against the likes of Leicester and Crystal Palace rank as the worst I have seen from an Everton striker. Lets just hope this thread doesn't do its same old cycle where people are wondering where the rom from the last 2 games has gone (he's only 21 etc etc) and we then rinse and repeat. Mostly because we're talking about him improving his skill set, which is relevant to all games, not just Europa, so it makes sense to look at the overall stats. You complain when people "cherry pick" stats, Haf, yet you're doing exactly the same here mate. I understand the "headline" stats don't give you the details, but thats what headlines are for. They can still be useful. I prefer to look at the headline of "Responsible for % of goals (scored and assists)." Thats a much better reflection on his contribution to the team. For example, we've apparently scored 55 goals in call competitions. 33 in the league, of which Rom has scored 8 and assisted 4 - meaning he is responsible for 33% (more or less) of our league goals. Europe hes got 8 and 2 assists, just over 50% of our goals in Europa. Overall, his contribution in all competitons is nearly 40%, again. Not bad really. Romey 1878 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 ...in Europe he is playing teams where he is an unknown quantity. In the premier league the teams know all about him and they know how to nullify him. I'm not sure this is the reason for his higher number of goals in Europe. I'd say it's because of the different style of play - less physical, in particular. That means Lukaku can boss players around and use his strength more in Europe than in the Prem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 But he needs to "link up play" - there is no way around this. He is 6ft 4, is physically imposing and as the furthermost player he needs to be able to allow the midfielders to join in attack. Otherwise it makes him one dimensional and he can be nullified "just dont leave space between the defence and goal" - and thats it. Linking up play is often phase one to a goalscoring move. Shearer was a master at it. The better the player is at it the more confidence his team mates will have in bombing forward to support. There really is no substitute for this at our level. Anyway - old ground. A big 2 games coming up - 2 wins and I think we will be in a good place to finish the season strongly and enjoy the Europa. Do you mean a bit like he did for McCarthys goal on Sunday? Romey 1878 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 why not assess them on their seperate merits? - its been clearly stated that Rom has done well in Europe, which he has. But all too often I am seeing "HE HAS SCORED 17 GOALS" - a great headline statement 8 in 29 games in the Premier League, 1 in 3.6 games. 7 in 8 in Europa 2 in 2 in FA Cup There is a story behind those stats - in Europe he is playing teams where he is an unknown quantity. In the premier league the teams know all about him and they know how to nullify him, which is where my criticisms come in, he has had to learn how to link up play because quitye honestly he was being marked out of games, not necessarily by class players either. It may just be me but Europa comes a very distant 2nd to the premier league, and forgiv4e me for being a little harsh on the lad but some performances i've seen from him against the likes of Leicester and Crystal Palace rank as the worst I have seen from an Everton striker. Lets just hope this thread doesn't do its same old cycle where people are wondering where the rom from the last 2 games has gone (he's only 21 etc etc) and we then rinse and repeat. You are correct and the story is that the team has been shite in the league so he hasn't been getting the service Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Do you mean a bit like he did for McCarthys goal on Sunday? Exactly that. FFS you lot are going on like he's been playing like this all season!!! Let's get it right, barring the odd game he's been bloody awful. Shall we go through game by game? as it's amazing how much gets forgotten. I'm made up that he is showing signs of progress but ffs he is only just ahead of naismith in the league who hasn't even been used as a striker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Agree with Haf on this one. If we are looking at his progress this season it has been slight ay best. Games to goals he is behind last season. If he played 120 games in a season and scored 20 would you say that is an improvement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 I think that as a player, over the season, Rom has become a better "footballer." I think his production has suffered primarily because our team hasn't been playing well as a unit. In the league, in general, we have been very disjointed and lucky to nick many of our goals. He shoulders some of the blame for that, sure, but he's also spent a lot of time on an island of his own and many of the "chances" he's received have been him having a pop from 25 yards, with nobody running in ahead of him. Conversely, when we have played well as a team, he has been scoring and creating goals. I think a lot of his "failures" this season come down to inconsistencies in the cast of characters that surround him, either because of injury, players playing out of position, or the general lethargy that we have been plagued by. I guess, other than injury (which can't be entirely prevented, though there could be better preventative measures in training) most of the team's failures start with Roberto then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Can't disagree with any of that really. He does seem like his overall game has improved and once he can tie that in with his ability to burst then we could have a top player on our hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeQuince Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Can't disagree with any of that really. He does seem like his overall game has improved and once he can tie that in with his ability to burst then we could have a top player on our hands. I think we've seen it, especially in recent weeks (Young Boys, Dynamo, and Newcastle) that when we really tick as a team, Rom looks like a beast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 https://twitter.com/danielstorey85/status/577399874544611329Imagine if Lukaku had the same service and lenient refs to help boost his figures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Imagine if Lukaku had the same service and lenient refs to help boost his figures. Imagine how many he'd have if he stayed onside . http://hereisthecity.com/en-gb/2015/02/04/stats-evertons-romelu-lukaku-tops-offside-chart-trying-too-hard/ Matt and Toffee_in_LA 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Agree with Haf on this one. If we are looking at his progress this season it has been slight ay best. Games to goals he is behind last season. If he played 120 games in a season and scored 20 would you say that is an improvement? You may not have noticed it but the team has not quite played as well as they did last year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Imagine if Lukaku had the same service and lenient refs to help boost his figures. Would I swap the lukaku we have for the 21 year old Rooney??? Absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted March 17, 2015 Report Share Posted March 17, 2015 Would I swap the lukaku we have for the 21 year old Rooney??? Absolutely.A 16 yo Rooney in a heartbeat. At 21 I see a better player in Rom. Lukaku has potential to get better than now, Rooneys raw talent was feared out of him by 21. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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