Longest Thread For Drivel (or the Romelu Lukaku thread)

[Matt]

But by playing to his strengths do we then do so to the detriment of the team strengths? We score from all over the park. We clearly don't rely on Lukaku and/or any other striker.

We can buzz about his 14 league goals, and ignore that 8 came in his first 9 games. We can also ignore that of the 30 league appearances he made, he DIDN'T score in 18 games. For a striker, a lone striker, in a team creating chances, that's a lot of games not to score in.

we don't score enough goals from all over the park though mate. Like I pointed out, no one is near him in terms of goals. If we can get his goals from other areas, fair enough. But Rom scores and wins games. We would need 4-5 players to pick up 3-4 goals extra each and how realistic is that? Moreover, how many clubs succeed with goals spread without a main goal scorer?

[Matt]

To be fair, while I see Matt's point, I agree that it is risky to go by stats. I have to be consistent as I always say that stats are very misleading. Even if he scores twenty goals a season, he needs to be more consistent with his touch and link-up play to be good enough to play long-term in a Martinez team.

stats are risky, but what else, without being an oracle, can you go on?

[Guest Nikica]

we don't score enough goals from all over the park though mate. Like I pointed out, no one is near him in terms of goals. If we can get his goals from other areas, fair enough. But Rom scores and wins games. We would need 4-5 players to pick up 3-4 goals extra each and how realistic is that? Moreover, how many clubs succeed with goals spread without a main goal scorer?

 

That's probably more likely in a team which plays like Martinez's though.

[Newty82]

To be fair, while I see Matt's point, I agree that it is risky to go by stats. I have to be consistent as I always say that stats are very misleading. Even if he scores twenty goals a season, he needs to be more consistent with his touch and link-up play to be good enough to play long-term in a Martinez team.

Ai.

 

He would need to be more consistent in his goal scoring distribution too.

 

How many more points would we have if, instead of scoring a few braces in games we dominated, he scored more in games where we needed that single goal to win the game?

 

Our best hope is that he has a shot world cup, potential suitors look elsewhere, and we nab him on the cheap!!!

[Guest Nikica]

stats are risky, but what else, without being an oracle, can you go on?

 

Well, my point is that football isn't like sprinting, where you can reduce it cold, hard facts over 10 seconds. Football is art as much as science; qualitative as well as quantitative. I mean you can't really measure skills such as vision and touch in stats. It's one of the reasons why playmakers seem to be the most undervalued players in football.

 

A goal is simply the end result of a move (in most cases). The guy who puts the ball in the net receives the credit, but it's far more complex than that.

 

Think of it as constructing a book: the ending is what hits home with people, but there's a beauty in the road there as well.

[Matt]

That's probably more likely in a team which plays like Martinez's though.

possession based you mean? Even then, you need a goal scorer

[Guest Nikica]

Ai.

 

He would need to be more consistent in his goal scoring distribution too.

 

How many more points would we have if, instead of scoring a few braces in games we dominated, he scored more in games where we needed that single goal to win the game?

 

Our best hope is that he has a shot world cup, potential suitors look elsewhere, and we nab him on the cheap!!!

 

Yeah, I am not veering one way or the other here. He has a lot of potential, but plenty of better footballers than he have failed to make the most of what they have. It's too early to say.

[Newty82]

we don't score enough goals from all over the park though mate. Like I pointed out, no one is near him in terms of goals. If we can get his goals from other areas, fair enough. But Rom scores and wins games. We would need 4-5 players to pick up 3-4 goals extra each and how realistic is that? Moreover, how many clubs succeed with goals spread without a main goal scorer?

Rom didn't score in 18 of his games, we lose them all did we?!

 

Anyway, I think we are going away in different directions. I believe that another striker will get Roms goals with the chances we create. My whole point is that £20-£25mill is too much for us to spend on one player.

 

I'll leave it there guys, I've expired my views now!!! Been a good crack though, cheers.

[Matt]

Well, my point is that football isn't like sprinting, where you can reduce it cold, hard facts over 10 seconds. Football is art as much as science; qualitative as well as quantitative. I mean you can't really measure skills such as vision and touch in stats. It's one of the reasons why playmakers seem to be the most undervalued players in football.

 

A goal is simply the end result of a move (in most cases). The guy who puts the ball in the net receives the credit, but it's far more complex than that.

 

Think of it as constructing a book: the ending is what hits home with people, but there's a beauty in the road there as well.

it is, but all the play makers in the world are useless without someone to capitalise on their work

[Matt]

Rom didn't score in 18 of his games, we lose them all did we?!

Anyway, I think we are going away in different directions. I believe that another striker will get Roms goals with the chances we create. My whole point is that £20-£25mill is too much for us to spend on one player.

I'll leave it there guys, I've expired my views now!!! Been a good crack though, cheers.

and the price tag I've always touted is 15m plus 3m in ad dons considering the loan fee

[Guest Nikica]

possession based you mean? Even then, you need a goal scorer

 

You're right, but my point is that in a possession team (possession vs counter is really breaking it down into absolutes, but you're essentially right imo) or a team which looks to build up play methodically and exploit space on the flanks, a player such as Lukaku really has to play his part in the build-up. You can't carry a poor footballer up front, even if he's scoring goals. It might be better to have someone who scores half the goals but brings others into play - would improve chance creation certainly. He might score goals but how many times may he ruin a great move with a poor pass, decision, touch etc? I just feel that too many players seem to be above criticism because of their stats.

[Guest Nikica]

it is, but all the play makers in the world are useless without someone to capitalise on their work

 

And the strikers are useless without someone to feed them.

 

I'm someone who thinks creating is harder than finishing, generally speaking.

[Matt]

You're right, but my point is that in a possession team (possession vs counter is really breaking it down into absolutes, but you're essentially right imo) or a team which looks to build up play methodically and exploit space on the flanks, a player such as Lukaku really has to play his part in the build-up. You can't carry a poor footballer up front, even if he's scoring goals. It might be better to have someone who scores half the goals but brings others into play - would improve chance creation certainly. He might score goals but how many times may he ruin a great move with a poor pass, decision, touch etc? I just feel that too many players seem to be above criticism because of their stats.

hes not a poor footballer though. He scores goals, it's what he does provided you feed him. "Feed the Yak, he will score". He did fuck all else. And the Yak wasn't 20.

[Matt]

And the strikers are useless without someone to feed them.

 

I'm someone who thinks creating is harder than finishing, generally speaking.

then we're not talking about Rom

[Newty82]

and the price tag I've always touted is 15m plus 3m in ad dons considering the loan fee

£15mill sounds ok, without add ons. Would probably have that!

 

Now that's me done you bastards. ..All night I've been on this! Got a feckin headache now!!

[Matt]

£15mill sounds ok, without add ons. Would probably have that!

Now that's me done you bastards. ..All night I've been on this! Got a feckin headache now!!

grappa getting to me

[Guest Nikica]

then we're not talking about Rom

 

I'm not saying he's useless creatively.

 

What I mean is that a finisher needs a creator and vice-versa. I do think though that seeing and executing a through ball through the eye of a needle is a greater and more difficult skill than beating a goalkeeper one-on-one. There are many different types of goals but in crude terms I prefer a great pass to a great finish. It's the same reason why I think brilliant dribbling solo goals are superior to brilliant strikes from range.

[pete0]

He's been involved in 39% of our goals this season.

[thoward18]

Ok, the point I will make is this, take Suarez, Giroud, bony at 20 years old and show me them having balls bounce off them, they don't.

 

Ball control is a fundamental skill, like tackling but far more important... Does anyone think that scholes didn't try and work at his tackling? He did but just never had that knack.

 

Show me a footballer with all the physical attributes and very little technical attributes and I'll show you a league one footballer.

 

 

At 20 years old Giroud was the 3rd Division of France. Bony was playing in the Czech Republic for Sparta PragueS, having only just recently being called up from the B team. Suarez was just starting his first year with Ajax. First of all, unless you were hired scout somewhere I'm seriously doubting you got to see much of them and how their "ball control" was at that age. Secondly, if their ball control was so phenomenal to the point that they were superior products than a guy who just scored 14 goals in 28 games at the EPL level and who already has 27 Caps then what the hell were they doing playing at such shit clubs (Suarez sort of being the exception)?

[Steve_E]

Scheme-wise, Lukaku isn't the best fit for our team. He's at his best when he can face the opposition's goal. Either when he can attack the ball in or near the box and try to slot it home or further away from goal with space he can use to gain separation from defenders that are likely gonna be slower or skinnier than him. If he were playing for a side that plays like West Ham or something, he probably would score 20 goals a season if he were to play a full one. He might even do for us as well as he has scored 14 goals despite missing out on a couple of games in the beginning of the season as he wasn't here on loan yet, through injury and due to the current rules prohibiting players from appearing against the parent club. Perhaps he is so good at what he does do that it would be best for us to compromise and take the good with the bad. However, I also don't think Lukaku has a lot of upside left. He isn't going to get much stronger (and if he does the added muscle would likely cost him pace and agility) or quicker (and if he does it's probably because he'd have lost weight and thus strength) probably. I've already said this before that Wenger doesn't think players develop technically after the age of twelve (said in the book The Nowhere Men by Michael Calvin). Now that's probably a bit of an oversimplification as there obviously are correct ways of hitting a ball in certain situations and if a player is doing it wrong these things can be corrected for example. But in general, I don't know of any strikers (or players in general) that didn't have a good touch when they were 20 and did when they were 30. I also actually have seen Suarez when he was playing for Groningen and in his early years at Ajax and his touch has always been way better than Lukaku's. He was very erratic and not a real team player though, but he had the kind of potential that could make him into a world class player with the right coaching.

 

In today's game, a lot of the so-called creative players, the wide men and attacking midfielders, aren't really looking to create chances for a centre forward either. Which is why I don't buy that just any decent striker is gonna score goals for us, we don't create that many chances imo. The inverted winger/forward in the Ronaldo mould, which is the type of player that Mirallas and Deulofeu are imo, benefits from a centre forward that can bring them into the position to score. Their strengths aren't to put the ball on a plate for a striker, it's to make runs and get into goalscoring positions themselves.

 

Ideally, our scouts find a 20-year-old Berbatov somewhere and if they do, by all means go with him instead. I know I haven't seen one in the PL (or Belgian or Dutch league) this year though.

[Guest blueboy122]

We don't need to spend 20M on this guy.

 

The argument of make the chances for him and he will give you 20 goals a season is non sense because many players could give us that using Haf's example Hernandez or even Naismith would score 20 goals "if we made the chances" why bother spending 20M when we can spend a third of that and get the same return.

 

We need a player who can do more than slot a few goals from point blank range we need a link up player, a player who we can build attacks off, relieve pressure and Lukaku just isn't that player.

 

For the attributes that Lukaku brings we can get just as good a player for a quarter of his price tag.

[Guest blueboy122]

Matt there's no way we are getting him for the figures you mention so stop basing your opinions on that price tag.

 

He will cost 20-25M guaranteed.

 

Are you willing to splash that amount of money on a player who offers very little going forward?

[efc1111]

At the awards dinner Lukaku described this season as "the best experience I've had in my career".

[Mirallas]

 

At the awards dinner Lukaku described this season as "the best experience I've had in my career".

 

 

Understandable. EFC is a stable club with a strong identity. He reached European football, largely thanks to his goals, which is his greatest achievement ever in English football. (his Chelsea season in which they won the CL, he never really played any role of importance then). I don't think you can hate to be an everton player.

[Matt]

Matt there's no way we are getting him for the figures you mention so stop basing your opinions on that price tag.

 

He will cost 20-25M guaranteed.

 

Are you willing to splash that amount of money on a player who offers very little going forward?

aaah, so your Lukakus agent. Right...

 

If you'd read what I'd written, you would see that I would only take him for the price I mentioned. For 20-25m, I would take him, if we have the money. Which we dont, so I wouldnt. But I maintain that if you want to buy a 1 in 2 striker, youre looking 15m+ anyway, and there are none around for that money less than 25.

[Hafnia]

We sold £40m worth of players and replaced with £23m leaving a £17m profit.

 

Throw on top of that £8-10m that I would expect from a new year/TV revenues perspective and we will be close to the £30m kitty that I have seen touted.

 

Will we see that much??? Who knows, but what is for certain is that we could afford Lukaku - however when you look at being at the expense of other key positions I'm not certain at all.

[Matt]

We sold £40m worth of players and replaced with £23m leaving a £17m profit.

 

Throw on top of that £8-10m that I would expect from a new year/TV revenues perspective and we will be close to the £30m kitty that I have seen touted.

 

Will we see that much??? Who knows, but what is for certain is that we could afford Lukaku - however when you look at being at the expense of other key positions I'm not certain at all.

we could (I read 25m budget in the papers) but not if we want to add bodies too

[Hafnia]

For me here's my alternative striker options and cost expectations:-

 

1. Bony £17m, beast of a man, 6ft and built like a tank, holds the ball up, explosive shot, great work rate, 25 years old, miss him due to ACN but he would get a bag full inb our team.

 

2. Remy - £8m at that price he will go champions league club. Liverpool would be soft not to try for him.

 

3. Batshuayi - £10m, loads of pace, scores goals, less financial risk.

 

4. Gomis - french international, free agent, big wages though...

[Guest blueboy122]

aaah, so your Lukakus agent. Right...

 

If you'd read what I'd written, you would see that I would only take him for the price I mentioned. For 20-25m, I would take him, if we have the money. Which we dont, so I wouldnt. But I maintain that if you want to buy a 1 in 2 striker, youre looking 15m+ anyway, and there are none around for that money less than 25.

Why are you such a dick?

[Cornish Steve]

The bottom line for me is that Lukaku scores goals. It doesn't matter that he sometimes plays half a game. It doesn't matter that he sometimes appears not to put in the effort he could. It doesn't even matter that his first touch could be better. The lad scores goals, and that's what he's paid for. And didn't someone write that he contributed to 39% of our goals - even while being out for a while? His value is obvious. Someone doesn't have to be perfect at everything, or even good at everything. We pay him to score goals, and if he scores goals then he's done the job.

 

Unforunately, though, there's going to be a bidding war involving some of Europe's top teams, and that would price him out of our reach. How much power does a player have in rejecting transfers? If Milan offered 25m, for example, and we offered 20m, but Lukaku really wants to stay with Everton, is there anything he can do to force Chelsea's hand?