Bailey Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 A bit BK sympathetic for you to add your support I'd have thought Hafnia (or at least certainly a long way from anti) . Thought you'd be slagging him off as an apologist. "What destroys the energy in the club is the weight of unrealistic expectation. If a £50m wage bill plays a £200m wage bill 10 times then I think the smaller bill might win once or twice but also expect to lose six times out of ten. Football is about competing financial resources and it seems to me that Bill Kenwright’s only crime is to be too emotionally attached to Everton. The fans constantly demand new signings, retaining the likes of Pienaar (£65,000 a week or £3.3m per year?? madness) and ask where all the money goes..... ....In short, there is no viable alternative to the current business plan. For every Sheikh there’s a Mike Ashley and there are rumoured to be over 100 football clubs in Europe seeking wealthy benefactors." Well you coule argue (quite easily as well) that the reason we have this business plan is because Kenwright hasnt done anything about it for the last 5-6+ years. You also have to counter balance that and say if Pienaar at £65k a week is madness then what about Arteta at £75k+ a week? I certainly dont think Kenwright is some evil dictator sucking the life out of the club as some supporters do, but I dont think anyone can disagree that the board cant be doing more and if they truly believe that this model is the way to run a successful football club then you really have to question their expertise. As much as I wouldnt want it to happen, selling the likes of Pienaar and Arteta for the 15-25 million we could have got for them would go along way into restructuring how this club operates and it would also help us stop having to sell players of their quality in the future. I know its not in anyway as simple as that but you cant just let debt keep escalating and it has to be managed and if cut backs are needed then so be it, if it means a secure future for the club. Just think when we sold Lescott we managed to get in Bily, Distin and Heitinga. While the first hasnt lit up Goodison yet, the latter two are much better players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 A bit BK sympathetic for you to add your support I'd have thought Hafnia (or at least certainly a long way from anti) . Thought you'd be slagging him off as an apologist. "What destroys the energy in the club is the weight of unrealistic expectation. If a £50m wage bill plays a £200m wage bill 10 times then I think the smaller bill might win once or twice but also expect to lose six times out of ten. Football is about competing financial resources and it seems to me that Bill Kenwright’s only crime is to be too emotionally attached to Everton. The fans constantly demand new signings, retaining the likes of Pienaar (£65,000 a week or £3.3m per year?? madness) and ask where all the money goes..... ....In short, there is no viable alternative to the current business plan. For every Sheikh there’s a Mike Ashley and there are rumoured to be over 100 football clubs in Europe seeking wealthy benefactors." Blimey someone actually delivers us some tangible facts and figures, free of the spin that you were no doubt hoping to be true in order to justify your Bill love-in and you use it as an opportunity to wonder where my anti-bill stance is? I'm tired of him! Have been since Kings Docks failure. Oh sorry, let's all hail Bill for not taking anything out of the coffers and for taking a back seat when he is very much being sat in the front seat of a car that is out of control. The "unrealistic expectations" have become just that because of the failure of Kenwright to provide £30m for a stadium that would have ensured self sustainability years before Arsenal and the emirates. LCC employees spent 2 years working very hard to get £195 million worth of grants to support a £250 million project for a world class waterfront stadium which Kenwright assured everyone for over 2 years that EFC's contribution of £30 million was "ringfenced". Fact, facts, facts is what you are always looking for... well today we received patronising, insulting and sarcastic spin. Another day in the life of an Everton fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 ...but I dont think anyone can disagree that the board cant be doing more and if they truly believe that this model is the way to run a successful football club then you really have to question their expertise. Think the point isn't that they've chosen this model but that given their circumstances it's the only sensible and workable option open to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Nice report Hafnia. Joe Beardwood has similar thoughts to myself. For Everton to improve off the field those in charge need to curtail the expenses but it won't happen. I can't see a way out, we're like a gazelle stuck in the mud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Blimey someone actually delivers us some tangible facts and figures, free of the spin that you were no doubt hoping to be true in order to justify your Bill love-in and you use it as an opportunity to wonder where my anti-bill stance is? I'm tired of him! Have been since Kings Docks failure. Oh sorry, let's all hail Bill for not taking anything out of the coffers and for taking a back seat when he is very much being sat in the front seat of a car that is out of control. The "unrealistic expectations" have become just that because of the failure of Kenwright to provide £30m for a stadium that would have ensured self sustainability years before Arsenal and the emirates. LCC employees spent 2 years working very hard to get £195 million worth of grants to support a £250 million project for a world class waterfront stadium which Kenwright assured everyone for over 2 years that EFC's contribution of £30 million was "ringfenced". Fact, facts, facts is what you are always looking for... well today we received patronising, insulting and sarcastic spin. Another day in the life of an Everton fan. Don't really know where to start because you completely fail to understand my viewpoint. So just a few things. No BK love-in here....it is a good article free of spin (spin that I would hope to be true? confused by that) that is broadly in line with my thinking, so why would I want spin in it? I am honestly surprised that you like an article that would seem to me to be be far removed from your opinions. I'll take your word on the stadium thing, no expert, but that's in the past and we have to deal with what's happening now. And I hate people being patronising, insulting and sarcastic.....no need for it is there ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Think the point isn't that they've chosen this model but that given their circumstances it's the only sensible and workable option open to them. I dont think it is/was their only option. We could have aimed to curtail spending, especially the wage budget. Dont forget these people know the figures day to day and not once a year (for the previous year) like we do. They should be able to foresee that the wages are begining to get out of control (which maybe why Pienaar/Yak have been replaced and not replaced). They know the facts yet they decided to pay even more on Arteta's contract, they could have sold him (say £20mil), replaced him for 5-10mil and put the other £10mil into reducing the debt, which would have been a large chunk! As I said previously I know its not as simple that but they do have options. At the moment I fear they are pinning their hopes on someone putting money into the club as now we have no more assets to sell (except players of course) and I suspect (and thats all it is) that there is little more scope for significant income through sponsorship, meaning we wont be able to pay off some of the debt and keep it manageable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saplingg Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 If they sold Arteta we would be bitching all the same, just about a different thing. Personally I think the board are trying their hardest to balance the finances and the football. If a key player for us wants to stay then by all means give Moyes the money to keep hi IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 I dont think it is/was their only option. We could have aimed to curtail spending, especially the wage budget. Dont forget these people know the figures day to day and not once a year (for the previous year) like we do. They should be able to foresee that the wages are begining to get out of control (which maybe why Pienaar/Yak have been replaced and not replaced). They know the facts yet they decided to pay even more on Arteta's contract, they could have sold him (say £20mil), replaced him for 5-10mil and put the other £10mil into reducing the debt, which would have been a large chunk! But can you imagine the fan reaction if they'd gone down that road? They're already destroyed for not spending anything.....can see the logic but if we'd sold Mikel and brought in a cut-price replacement last summer there'd have been open revolt! We were perceived as having our best squad in twenty-five years and every chance of top four. Blood would have been spilled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted February 8, 2011 Report Share Posted February 8, 2011 Hard times! Nevertheless, Moyes, who has not had a net spend on players for the past five transfer windows, faces another summer of having to sell before he can buy. "It is fair to say we have not got a big transfer war chest. I can't see us smashing our record transfer fee on a regular basis," said Elstone. Imagine if he had... don't actually it'll just be frustrating!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Debt has increased by £7 million whilst we paid £8 million off on loans from the sale of Bellfield? Doesnt make good reading for next year when we dont have another Bellfield to sell or am i missing something? I dont think people should panic at this stage, next years figures are the ones we should worry about. We have had 8 million for Bellefield, we have sold Pienaar, and we have Yakubu, Da Silva, Vaughan, and Akpan off the wage bill, and we have not spent a penny on transfers all season. The new contract for the Premier league Sky TV money was improved and came into fruition at the beginning of this season, so that should be an improvement of about 15 million Pounds. Its beginning to look a bit healthier, but if we make another loss with next years figures, its then i will start worrying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 Here we go: http://www.evertonfc.com/assets/_files/documents/feb_11/efc__1297183974_Annual_Report_and_Accounts_201.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 9, 2011 Report Share Posted February 9, 2011 I wouldn't say panic, but when you see air pissing out of your life raft and other rafts are being pulled aboard ships you need to shout "help" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/feb/10/everton-accounts-joleon-lescott-manchester-city I cant open the link for some reason, but quote from the BBC gossip page: The sale of Joleon Lescott for a fee of about £24m to Manchester City helped Everton avoid losses of £22m in the financial year ending 31 May 2010. That mean that we will see the losses next year, since the money from the JLo sale went to Bily, Distin and Johnny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/feb/10/everton-accounts-joleon-lescott-manchester-city I cant open the link for some reason, but quote from the BBC gossip page: That mean that we will see the losses next year, since the money from the JLo sale went to Bily, Distin and Johnny? Don't worry, Matt, we're being run very sensibly indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Next season the Bellefield figures(possibly Netherton academy too?) are taken into account so the loss won't look as bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Next season the Bellefield figures(possibly Netherton academy too?) are taken into account so the loss won't look as bad. its not going to cover 22m though is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 its not going to cover 22m though is it? Most of the £22m is the money we paid for Heitinga, Bily & Distin though Matt, so it won't need to be covered . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Nowhere near! Whilst Lescott money would have in all likelihood been paid at once, Everton would have spread the payments for Distin, Biyaletdinov and Heitinga over the length of their contracts where possible. When Robert Elstone says Lescott's fee was re-invested in, he's not lying but it's not covered in one set of accounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Whilst Lescott money would have in all likelihood been paid at once, Everton would have spread the payments for Distin, Biyaletdinov and Heitinga over the length of their contracts where possible. You may well have a point....but it's all a bit speculative until we see next years accounts . And then we'll have more questions that we won't know the answers to until the following year. And repeat . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Same as it ever was! St. Helens ex CEO has given his thoughts: http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/everton-fc/everton-fc-news/2011/02/10/sean-mcguire-lack-of-strategy-has-left-everton-fc-facing-bleak-future-92534-28145325/ It’s one thing to go to your bank and ask for a loan based on your future earnings (that is, your salary) to buy a house, but it’s quite another to get such a loan to pay for your day-to-day outgoings. That’s in effect what Everton have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 (edited) http://www.peoplesblog.co.uk/general/accounts-investment-and-a-healthy-dose-of-spin.html My annoyance at Elstone's patronising blog is still simmering. Edited February 10, 2011 by Hafnia2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Most of the £22m is the money we paid for Heitinga, Bily & Distin though Matt, so it won't need to be covered . Thats what I was getting at mate, but if Louis is right and we're paying over a period of time (i think all Bily and Johnny had 5 year deals?) then do we have to worry about interest on that too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Come on lads, " Mountains out of molehills,"... its not good for your health. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Thats what I was getting at mate, but if Louis is right and we're paying over a period of time (i think all Bily and Johnny had 5 year deals?) then do we have to worry about interest on that too? Top and bottom of it is that to survive we need to maintain a serious sell to buy policy - one that allows us to make serious net profits. Not totally against that as when adapted by the likes of Arsenal (wenger) in particular he engineers it to perfection. He keeps the average age and appetite at Arsenal fresh by ensuring players are sold on at the right time (financially)... Henry, Viera, Toure, Adebuyor, Anelka, Overmars, Petit, Richard Wright, The fact is he does this without need, more often judgement - and Arsenals finances give him that choice. Would he sell Fellaini, Rodwell, Baines, Rooney, Lescott if they were in his team? Certainly not Felli, Rooney and maybe not Rodwell. He would build a team around them. Sure he has lost Cole and Adebuyor possibly against his wishes (or so he would have you believe) - ironically the replacements are almost cheap, instant, and often equal. Fact remains that we are a club who others can take advantage of - especially in the knowledge that we are struggling financially. We can't play hardball and put a player in the reserves if he wants to leave, and clubs know that. If Fellaini was playing for Man United and Real Madrid fancied him the value would be likely in the £35m+ region, from us? he would be touted in the £20m bracket - take it or leave it - and that is nothing to do with the prestige of the club. I have no doubt that if Rooney was an Arsenal player and was to be sold when we did, his price would have been nudging £40m. In summary - yep, sell to buy is fine, but we need new owners = new stadium = no debts = more net income to give us the protection to do it at our discretion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 http://andersred.blogspot.com/2011/02/everton-200910-results-very-typical-pl.html another view... yep it's pretty dire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 another view... Another view that is anything but critical.. "That such a well established, prudently run club with the eighth highest attendances in the Premier League is struggling like it is, tells us much about the finances of the modern game." The situation could certainly be described as pretty dire, but the inference is definitely that the problem is with football in general rather than Everton in particular. Having said that I don't really give a flying f'ck if anyone else is in trouble...well I do a bit but not a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 http://andersred.blogspot.com/2011/02/everton-200910-results-very-typical-pl.html another view... yep it's pretty dire. You must be in torment Hafnia, why not sit in the bath playing with a sharp razor blade, it will take away all of your misery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 But can you imagine the fan reaction if they'd gone down that road? They're already destroyed for not spending anything.....can see the logic but if we'd sold Mikel and brought in a cut-price replacement last summer there'd have been open revolt! We were perceived as having our best squad in twenty-five years and every chance of top four. Blood would have been spilled. But we have done it before and we will have to do it again... Yes there would be outrage BUT if it is best for the club then it should have been done. With regards to Arteta especially this summer we offered him a new contract which would equate to roughly a 50% increase in his weekly wages. Considering we already had a high wage to turnover ratio, offering significantly higher deals such as this one just shouldnt have been allowed imo. Especially considering as this will start of a spiral with Felli expecting that much, Heitinga, Jags, Baines and not to mention any decent player we try and sign. My view would be is Arteta worth £20-25mil (speculative of course) to this football club? I would say no... I know this is retrospective given his season so far but as a business Everton would have been much better off selling him for the higher end of the estimate and bringing in someone below the £10-15mil mark (like Moyes did with Heits, Felli, Bily) and use the rest to clear a 1/5 of our debt. I have to admit I would have been extremely gutted if we had sold Arteta in the summer but from a purely financial perspective, sometimes we have to do whats best for the club and I dont think Arteta is worth as much as we pay him or as much as we could sell him for. I also think we could pick up someone of similar ability for half the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Blimey, acceptance of this is what the current regime seem to want us to accept. It's reality yes, but we need the basis to utilise our fan base and corporate facilities to the max which ultimately means new owners. Selling class acts for lesser price gambles? The likes of Alan ball would never have been seen at this club. It's not what we are and not what we should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smeghead1 Posted February 10, 2011 Report Share Posted February 10, 2011 Just a quick reply to Bailey, who would you expect to pick up if Arteta was sold for 20 million? Charlie Adam was touted around at 14 million and with all due respect id take Arteta over him all day long! Its incredible that a Club known for its wealth 20 years ago is now in this rut! Weve needed a new ground for years and have had false promise after false promise both from the club and the City Council (Stanley Park will never be built on my arse). Weve been backed into a corner now where our board MUST SELL otherwise the ships gonna sink! Lets hope and pray the takeover spin turns out to be true otherwise we'l be watching Championship football never mind dreaming about Champions League! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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