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He has scored 9 in 1461 PL minutes this season. Extrapolate the same average to 2556 minutes (the amount Lukaku played) and he'd end up at 15,7 goals. That's having played on the wing quite a bit rather than up front.

 

 

All 9 goals came against poor opposition, I think it was only 1 game where he scored a winning goal, as I say if we a can get him for cheap then fair enough but 10million for him is too much. Obviously this all my opinion if we get him and he scores 20 goals then i'll happily hold my hands up and say I was wrong.

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That's for a team who played 90% of the season with a manager who doesn't really bring out the best in goalscorers too....

 

Its crazy really, the same level of criticisms that can be levelled at Lukaku are the ones that shoot Wellbeck down

 

http://hereisthecity.com/en-gb/2014/04/25/opta-analysis-lukaku-vs-welbeck-which-everton-target-has/

 

As I have said, for the right money Wellbeck could be a very good signing for us. I think with consistent run of games you will see a very confident player who would suit our system.

 

 

Quick head to head:-

 

Finishing:- Lukaku, he knows where the net is, no doubt. Wellbeck is no slouch, I did see a couple of times where composure was lacking for united but he is adept. Lukaku wins this.

 

Hold up and link up play:- Wellbeck is the better footballer for me - better touch and passing ability. Lukaku is poor in this regard

 

Athleticism/Prescence:- You shouldn't really be able to top lukaku in this regard, but he could be better, he needs to use his size better and in the air for me I think he needs to spend time with Dunc . Welbeck is very quick, fit and lasts 90 minutes at a better level of work rate. Welbeck has superior stamina and presses the opposition very well. Both have their own attributes, Rom is more explosive whereas Welbeck is more gazelle like.

 

Value:- If we can get welbeck for £10m it represents smart business and is at a level where we would improve our team and have money left for other purchases. I believe that there is a little bit more to come from Lukaku, but not to the level everyone seems to expect. Welbeck given a steady starting place could become a very good player indeed - for me he is technically sound, an athlete and a bloody hard working player.

 

If we had daft money to blow £20-£25m Lukaku represents an exciting signing, realistically though the supposed more safe and boring option of Welbeck appeals to me more in terms of what we have financially.

 

We need 2 good strikers to be bought to go along with Naismith and Kone - buy Lukaku and that can't happen.

 

Thats just crazy... Lukaku's finishing and link up play are far superior to Welbecks. I think they are probably level in the touch stakes, but Lukaku has a better understanding of the game and when to play the pass or more importantly when to move into space. Even athletically I would still have Lukaku because he shows it when it matters and not 40 yards from goal like Welbeck. The latter may be able to win more headers or cover the ground a little better but Lukaku will be the one holding the defender off to slot the ball in the back of the net or dragging two defenders with him allowing a midfielder to burst into the space he has vacated.

 

I dont think Welbeck is as bad as some people make out but for me he is nowhere near the same level as Lukaku and he never will be either and I think a lot of people seem to either be in one camp or the other. For me he would be a good signing for a lower table team who have money to spend. I think he has the potential to get 10-15 goals a season in the right team as an out and out striker but lets not make him out to be anything more than he is.

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Plus Welbeck was playing for a manager that loves guys with his attributes and if one striker was going to flourish at Utd while Moyes was there it would have been him.

No one flourished for United during that period.

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Thats just crazy... Lukaku's finishing and link up play are far superior to Welbecks. I think they are probably level in the touch stakes, but Lukaku has a better understanding of the game and when to play the pass or more importantly when to move into space. Even athletically I would still have Lukaku because he shows it when it matters and not 40 yards from goal like Welbeck. The latter may be able to win more headers or cover the ground a little better but Lukaku will be the one holding the defender off to slot the ball in the back of the net or dragging two defenders with him allowing a midfielder to burst into the space he has vacated.

 

I dont think Welbeck is as bad as some people make out but for me he is nowhere near the same level as Lukaku and he never will be either and I think a lot of people seem to either be in one camp or the other. For me he would be a good signing for a lower table team who have money to spend. I think he has the potential to get 10-15 goals a season in the right team as an out and out striker but lets not make him out to be anything more than he is.

 

Bar the finishing I have seen to nothing whatsoever to conclude that Lukaus touch and build up play is anything other than sub standard. Wellbeck is very under rated in this regard.

 

His team mates rate him very highly RVP loves his ability in linking up and working for the team. Rio Ferdinand stated that if he was a manager then Wellbeck would be the first united player he would sign - apart from getting the number of goals he should "HE HAS EVERYTHING" - the goals will come when he isn't played on the wing as much.

 

From my own pov I have seen games where he very effective dropping deep and bringing midfielders into play.

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Mate who is season ticket holder said he has been deployed out wide - moreso under Moyes (surprise surprise) - when given games in the middle he has really impressed and when rooney was out was very good indeed. Loads of ability - just a little lightweight considering his size.

 

His goal tally for england suggests more to come better than one in three.

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Mate who is season ticket holder said he has been deployed out wide - moreso under Moyes (surprise surprise) - when given games in the middle he has really impressed and when rooney was out was very good indeed. Loads of ability - just a little lightweight considering his size.

 

His goal tally for england suggests more to come better than one in three.

2 against San Marino and 2 against Moldova represent 50% of his goals scored at international level. How does this show there is more to come? I remember 1 or 2 sitters at the same time not to mention sitters missed.

 

Im not saying he's not worth the investment, Im just amazed you're so against a proven striker in Lukaku and championing a player whos made nowhere near the same impact.

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2 against San Marino and 2 against Moldova represent 50% of his goals scored at international level. How does this show there is more to come? I remember 1 or 2 sitters at the same time not to mention sitters missed.

 

Im not saying he's not worth the investment, Im just amazed you're so against a proven striker in Lukaku and championing a player whos made nowhere near the same impact.

 

I'm not against Lukaku - i'm against spending £20-£25m on him. If it was him or Welbeck for £10m I would plump for Lukaku.

 

My argument for being "less convinced" that Lukaku will improve by much is that it is technical - if it aint there by now it is highly unlikely to be there any time. With Welbeck it is mental which he can most certainly do - composure, confidence.

 

For the money I feel Welbeck will give us more bang for the buck. I really do think as a number 1 striker he will get that "arrogance" as Martinez calls it. I think he will bloom - I really do.

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I have to agree fully with Haf, people are saying Lukaku has a better first touch than Welbeck? Seriously!

Yet they slate him for giving away four balls during the England game and not recognising how many touches he actually had that linked up play during that game.

 

The argument is not who is best but who offers better value for money.

For me I would rather spend 10 on Welbeck and Get a 12 - 15 goalscorer than 20 - 25m the for a 15 - 20 goalscorer.

 

Lukaku is a better player and better prospect than Welbeck but he is nowhere near twice the player. That borders on fanboyism for me. He has the potential to be three times the player but needs to put that effort onto the pitch and make the doubters believe he can do it.

 

When people have doubts there is usually good reason. Lukaku has created this. Too many managers and coaches have doubts for us to risk our whole budget on him.

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Before,this season past how would people have rated Sturridge compares to Welbeck?

 

To me not world's apart.

 

Only honest opinions count haha. If it gets silly then I'll change my opinion to "I always knew Sturridge would be a top player".

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Before,this season past how would people have rated Sturridge compares to Welbeck?

 

To me not world's apart.

 

Only honest opinions count haha. If it gets silly then I'll change my opinion to "I always knew Sturridge would be a top player".

 

Sturridge always had more about him but at the same time he was more inconsistent. I remember when he signed for Liverpool a lot of people were hoping he would come here. I wasnt but only on a tactical point of view because he would have been useless under Moyes.

 

 

Bar the finishing I have seen to nothing whatsoever to conclude that Lukaus touch and build up play is anything other than sub standard. Wellbeck is very under rated in this regard.

 

His team mates rate him very highly RVP loves his ability in linking up and working for the team. Rio Ferdinand stated that if he was a manager then Wellbeck would be the first united player he would sign - apart from getting the number of goals he should "HE HAS EVERYTHING" - the goals will come when he isn't played on the wing as much.

 

From my own pov I have seen games where he very effective dropping deep and bringing midfielders into play.

 

Lukaku's build up play is actually pretty good. Its not world class but neither is Welbecks. I havent seen either Utd or Sunderland be able to build sustained attacks off of Welbeck, which is what he would have to do should he want to come here. As you saw for England, his first touch was decent enough but a lot of the time fuck all happened with it. He either ran in to an alley, gave the ball away or even worse he sucked the pace of a counter by playing backwards (Rooney was far worse in that category though!). If Welbeck's playmaking/attack building abilities were as good as you suggest he would surely have more than 1 assist this season, especially given his role in the team?

 

As I said, I think he is a decent enough player and if he came here I think he would be a limited success. I think he would score some goals, bring others into play ok and work hard defensively but he wouldnt make the same impact as Lukaku.

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I have to agree fully with Haf, people are saying Lukaku has a better first touch than Welbeck? Seriously!

Yet they slate him for giving away four balls during the England game and not recognising how many touches he actually had that linked up play during that game.

 

The argument is not who is best but who offers better value for money.

For me I would rather spend 10 on Welbeck and Get a 12 - 15 goalscorer than 20 - 25m the for a 15 - 20 goalscorer.

 

Lukaku is a better player and better prospect than Welbeck but he is nowhere near twice the player. That borders on fanboyism for me. He has the potential to be three times the player but needs to put that effort onto the pitch and make the doubters believe he can do it.

 

When people have doubts there is usually good reason. Lukaku has created this. Too many managers and coaches have doubts for us to risk our whole budget on him.

I cant agree with a single word of that (except the acknowledgement of Lukaku being the better player ;) ), though I cant argue the point about England because I didnt see the game.

 

Welbeck, 9 goals this season in 25 apps,1 in 4/5 striker on track record during his career. Lukaku 15 in 33, 1 in 2 during his professional career

Welbeck 1 assist all season. Lukaku 6

 

Many more details why Lukaku is a much, much better player:

 

http://www.espnfc.com/player/115271/danny-welbeck

http://www.espnfc.com/player/139437/romelu-lukaku

 

I understand that people dont want to blow the budget, I can completely understand why and Ive never said I want to blow the budget on him. But that doesnt mean you big-up an decent player to something hes not. Welbeck is decent, for 8-10m being touted I get it. But he is no Lukaku and double the money for more than double the affects on the pitch? Whilst I dont want to blow the lot on him, I'd be very happy if we did. Id be less happy if we spent a lot of money on average players.

 

Anyways, like we keep saying, its all opinions :)

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For me I would rather spend 10 on Welbeck and Get a 12 - 15 goalscorer than 20 - 25m the for a 15 - 20 goalscorer.

 

The only difference being that Lukaku has actually proven to be in the 15-20 bracket twice and Welbeck has yet to hit even 10 in a season yet; couple that with the fact that Welbeck is older by a couple of years.

 

That said, I'd take Welbeck for 10M max.

 

(P.S. We're not getting Lukaku)

 

 

EDIT: The more I think about Welbeck, the more I'm interested. He managed to get some goals in a poor United squad, though his lack of assists is extremely low considering how much folks are touting his link-up play.

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Don't come out with that shite. It's the sort of thing the morons on Redcafe come out with because people don't rate Welbeck. What a condescending comment. We are talking about fucking Danny Welbeck here, not Pele - it's more than reasonable not to rate him. He's done nothing in his career and has actually stagnated.

 

As for 'lack of understanding of forward play', I do pretty well as a forward when I play myself.

 

Either way, I'm judging more on what I have seen from him over the last few years, not the other night. He had some nice touches the other night but he was also constantly running down blind alleys and also had some heavy touches.

 

Welbeck seems to be the only player I've seen where people say 'you don't understand football' if you don't rate him. I saw it with Carrick too actually but I like him as a player.

 

I could turn round and say that perhaps your standards are too low...see how easy it is? But I don't think that and I won't say that, because comments like 'you don't get football' or 'your standards are too low' don't belong on this football forum.

 

For the record, Welbeck's biggest fans on Redcafe seem to be utterly moronic, unable to accept opposing opinions on him, and they dream things up about him (they're claiming he's a great finisher because of his whoscored stats). I think that's pretty telling.

 

There are probably players who you think are average whom I and others really rate so it works both ways. Stop with the smarmy comments. You are flattering Welbeck big-style by using him as a litmus test of who does and doesn't get football. You should probably start with him given his brainless running. Even his fanboys are saying he was underwhelming the other night.

 

Views on isolated players have no bearing on what people do or don't get about football. And, again, it's Danny Welbeck. It's not like clubs around Europe are banging down the door to sign him (despite the fact he's nowhere near first pick for Man U). How pathetic would it be if Bailey, tenacious or Romey (three guys whom are amongst the best posters here, btw) found a recent comment of yours and implied you don't get football because they disagree with it? Very, and that's what you're doing here. I doubt they would do it though as they're not that immature or petulant. From what I have seen these guys are far more clued up than Welbeck fanboys on other sites, which is telling.

 

Apologies for the lengthy post but condescending comments like yours have no place here.

 

"haha! can still go ahead, its all opinion"

 

So, first you say it's all opinion (which is fair), then a few hours later anyone who doesn't rate him is clueless...

 

"I would also like to let you guys know that you need to give Barkley time, because from your perception of Welder's performance you must surely be thinking that Barkley shouldn't be anywhere near the squad? If your honest that is"

 

That's a strange comment, the difference is that Barkley is very young and much more talented, so likely to be a better impact player and 'wildcard' than Welbeck. He has far more footballing ability. What Barkley did in this game (where he didn't even start) has zero bearing on what should happen in Brazil. Silly comparison.

. Fuck me Niki it quiet on the Gers forums or what? Settle down lad

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Has anyone actually considered that Welbeck has operated on the wing the last two years? He has Rooney and RVP ahead of him.

 

I spent most of the season laughing at how moyes was instructing United to play so I'm not going to slate welbeck too much for this season, after all Rooney + rvp together this season scored only a couple more than RVP alone last season.

 

Shukes actually nailed one word just before "fan boy". I wouldn't have thought this applies to footballers but it does seem people have very selective process for rating someone so highly. And conversely dismissing someone not as popular.

 

It's a bit like the old Commodore Amiga vs Atari st debate.

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Judging a centre forward's (or any player's) performance by stats like goals and assists is simplistic. Everton play a certain way, Manchester United play another way and other teams set up differently when playing Everton than when they play Manchester United. And if you're not even accounting for the time both players spent on the pitch, you're doing an even worse job. Welbeck actually had a better minutes to goal ratio than Lukaku this past season (a goal every 162.33 minutes to one every 170.4 minutes, both ratios are fine btw). Context is everything and to really give a good assessment of a player, you should actually watch all of the games.

 

I've watched both of Manchester United's games in the Champions League against Real Madrid from last season today (you can too if you've got too much time on your hands, there's quality uploads on Youtube for both). Two games at the very highest level. He played on the wing (with Rooney on the other wing and Kagawa in support of van Persie) in the first half of the 1-1 tie, a game he scored in from a corner, then he swapped positions with Kagawa when the second half started. In the 1-2 loss he played up front with van Persie, then moved to the wing when Nani got sent off.

 

Maybe I had already made my mind up, but I've come away from these games with my opionions on him reinforced. Both Lukaku and Welbeck are capable of going at a defender and doing some stepovers, etc. But in terms of functional technique (first touch and every touch after that one, the pace and direction on his passes) Welbeck is better and it isn't even close imo. His good close control and quick feet would allow us to create an overload centrally with him dropping a bit deeper or on the wing with him moving wide to combine with the winger. Makes quick decisions. Good attitude and workrate: chases balls over the top and forces defenders to put it out for a throw in, makes runs into the box... He shows real desire in defensive transitions, great discipline as he tracks back and even wins the ball quite a bit, even drops back into a deep block. Shows good tactical intelligence in the angles he takes when pressing, and pressing up front is important to delay or even stop counter attacks against our high defensive line. He was mostly dropping a bit deeper here with van Persie as the main centre forward, but he does have the pace to stretch the defense vertically, though he perhaps does not have that real break away speed or overpowering strength that Lukaku has. However, too me the system is more important and I think Welbeck fits it perfectly.

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Guest Nikica

Grow up. I am not going to take that back. I really do feel that way after reading a lot of posts, if you are not adult enough to take those comments without trying to turn it into something else then you shouldn't post on forums.... Man up!

 

I don't need to man up. I'm simply pointing out the folly of judging a poster based on what they think of one player. It's even more pathetic in this case as the general consensus seems to be that Welbeck was rubbish the other night, which would indicate you're the one who's clueless and arrogant (although this is an appeal to popularity, which is flawed). Having watched Welbeck myself I definitely trust my own eyes over your analysis. You're clearly overrating him because you feel Everton will sign him. Thinking Welbeck is an average player or had a bad game is hardly controversial is it?

 

Perhaps you could let me know some of your opinions on football? So that I can pick out the odd one or two I disagree with and call you clueless as a result.

 

Welbeck of all people :rolleyes: Clearly you don't follow foreign football much if you are impressed by a guy like Welbeck (two can play the condescending game).

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For the record putting a haha on the end must surely show that it was a tongue in cheek remark and one that I admitbwas baiting... But wow you took the hook!

 

I'm starting to question your intelligence now haha!

 

Just seen you say it was a joke. Either way, I'm a pretty deep thinker and have plenty of academic achievements. I'd far rather be me than most of the X Factor watching, Royalist loving sheep in this country.

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Guest Nikica

Were talking about Welbeck tour right. A player that has been picked to go to the world cup! You get that right?

 

So maybe you should not be questioning his ability as much as you as professional coaches and managers seem to have a different opinion.

 

Ahhh, the old argument from authority.

 

Read the following:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

 

You honestly wouldn't believe how many times I've had to reply to someone who is arguing from authority. It's a huge number. One flaw of an argument from authority (in this example): you're saying Welbeck has been chosen by an expert such as Roy, so this proves Welbeck's ability. Therefore, you cannot question any other decisions Roy makes as a manager as you've already deferred to his expertise. Another problem is that not all experts will agree in regards to Welbeck, so your appeal is pointless.

 

Btw going to a World Cup isn't proof that anyone is a good player, especially for a team as average as England. I guess you're a fan of all 736 players at the tournament then? So spare me dull, patronising comments like 'you get that right?' The World Cup is my favourite thing in football and I have always researched its history - I realise the magnitude of the occasion. It doesn't alter the fact that lots of poor players play at World Cups.

 

Wasn't letting me multi-quote (again) hence the three consecutive posts.

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Guest Nikica

 

He has scored 9 in 1461 PL minutes this season. Extrapolate the same average to 2556 minutes (the amount Lukaku played) and he'd end up at 15,7 goals. That's having played on the wing quite a bit rather than up front.

 

That's folly though. You can't just extrapolate what someone would do based on how many goals he scores during a purple patch - that's lunacy. As for Haf's comments, there's a large middle ground between shite and world class. Welbeck isn't shite, and he's certainly a more talented footballer than the goal hanger Hernandez, but he's still really quite average in the grand scheme of things. Lukaku is a better player than him - but haf underrates Lukaku's passing, first touch etc, and overrates Welbeck's imo.

 

Welbeck has awful balance, often has a heavy first touch, and when he dribbles he generally doesn't look like he knows where he's going with the ball - he just runs. The funny thing is that his fans are always (rightly) deriding youtube videos as they can make anyone look good - yet they never fail to bust out the gifs of anything good Welbeck has done. Where's the difference? It's hypocritical.

 

Welbeck's finishing is his main weakness (even most of his fanboys admit this). For haf to say that he's 'no slouch' in this area surprises me and tells me that perhaps he's being more criticla of Lukaku because he sees him every week, unlike Welbeck. You're more likely to notice Lukaku's flaws.

 

"A year or so ago 90% of football experts fans beleived Aaron Ramsey to be awful... amazing what game time and a manager that believes in you can do... I guess a few fans needed to eat humble pie."

 

The difference being that Ramsey was always a clear talent, and his progression was stalled by a horrendous broken leg. Besides, picking out the odd exception who actually goes on to improve big-time just makes Welbeck look worse. United fans on Redcafe are doing the same thing - "look at Bale, Ramsey and Pogba, their rise to fame shows anyone can do it!". All it shows is that a tiny minority actually make the step up and it's highly unlikely that Welbeck will be one of them. You're picking out anomalies to defend him. Based on this logic you could say any young player could go on to become a superstar, because 'someone else had a meteoric rise'.

 

He's just nowhere near as good as some of you are claiming.

 

Steve E - I am always saying stats are overrated. However, I believe Lukaku is a better-all round footballer than Welbeck, as well as a better goalscorer. In the Real Madrid games Welbeck was more playing as a defensive striker, putting pressure on Alonso to try and win the ball high up the park. Besides, the 'he had a good game against X top opposition' is a flawed argument. You could say it about loads of average players who've had a good game against RM or Bayern, Barca etc.

 

"But in terms of functional technique (first touch and every touch after that one, the pace and direction on his passes) Welbeck is better and it isn't even close imo"

 

This just isn't true at all. I watch Man United pretty much every week - Welbeck's first touch is very erratic, just like Lukaku. His passing is often aimless and poor. Also, Lukaku is pretty good with both feet whereas Welbeck's left is useless. To say that he's far better than Lukaku in terms of actual footballing ability is sheer hyperbole.

 

Put it this way, if you replace Lukaku with Welbeck, I think it'd take a miracle for you to finish top four next season.

 

"Has anyone actually considered that Welbeck has operated on the wing the last two years? He has Rooney and RVP ahead of him.

I spent most of the season laughing at how moyes was instructing United to play so I'm not going to slate welbeck too much for this season, after all Rooney + rvp together this season scored only a couple more than RVP alone last season.

 

Shukes actually nailed one word just before "fan boy". I wouldn't have thought this applies to footballers but it does seem people have very selective process for rating someone so highly. And conversely dismissing someone not as popular.

 

It's a bit like the old Commodore Amiga vs Atari st debate."

 

This is all bollox as well. All you've done in here is attack the opposing argument with shite like 'he isn't as popular' or 'the prawn sandwich brigade think someone can only be shite or top class'. I for one think lots of popular players are overhyped. I'm one of the last people you'll ever meet who goes by popular opinion - to stay with your video game comparison, I still prefer Nintendo to Sony or Microsoft. I don't have any of that iphone, itunes shite and I hate the very popular Royal family. I'd bet lots of people deriding Welbeck are similar. At least debate it properly rather than creating straw men.

 

 

No surprise given your dislike of Lukaku.

 

"Bar the finishing I have seen to nothing whatsoever to conclude that Lukaus touch and build up play is anything other than sub standard. Wellbeck is very under rated in this regard."

 

Underrated? It's horrendously overrated - have you seen how much people laud him for his (frankly average) 'link up play'.

 

"His goal tally for england suggests more to come better than one in three."

 

Oh come on. International football and club football are completely different. Also, most of his goals have come against minnows like San Marino and Moldova. The arguments in favour of him are just laughable.

 

"Rio Ferdinand stated that if he was a manager then Wellbeck would be the first united player he would sign - apart from getting the number of goals he should "HE HAS EVERYTHING" - the goals will come when he isn't played on the wing as much."

 

Endorsements from a moron like Rio Ferdinand :rofl: :rofl: Are you now gonna appeal to authority too, like Shukes?

 

"though his lack of assists is extremely low considering how much folks are touting his link-up play."

 

Exactly. He is bang average yet seems to be overrated as fuck by some people.

 

 

Also, as I said, most of his goals came in a one month purple patch against poor opposition. Some of them came from the wing, but most of them came when he played up top in the spell Rooney and RVp were both injured. Fair play, but to then assume he can do it all season long based on one month's form, it's a bit much.

 

He's the most overrared player on Redcafe and it looks like he's well on his way to being the most overrated player on this site too. It's gonna be hilarious when he joins a lower table team and his career falls apart.

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Guest Nikica

Before,this season past how would people have rated Sturridge compares to Welbeck?

 

To me not world's apart.

 

Only honest opinions count haha. If it gets silly then I'll change my opinion to "I always knew Sturridge would be a top player".

 

I always thought Sturridge was better than Welbeck. I could probably find posts from the past to prove it (although I wouldn't want you knowing where else I post).

 

I tell you what is funny though - mancs who used to say that Sturridge lacked link up play, was just a finisher and essentially another Defoe (displaying their lack of foresight, like when they said the other 18 teams in La Liga were rubbish). They've been proved to be utterly clueless.

 

You're very patronising. Your last comment actually implies that you think anyone who said that is just backtracking and didn't actually believe it. Well, I and many others have always preferred Sturridge, as far back as his Man City and Chelsea days. Sturridge was obviously the better footballer - better nall manipulation, tighter control, better vision. Because he was sometimes selfish people confused it with him being a poor footballer. Classic rookie error.

 

You seem like a real prick tbh - questioning people's knowledge for not rating Pele Welbeck and assuming that anyone who sasys they still preferred Sturridge back in the day is lying and backtracking.

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"But in terms of functional technique (first touch and every touch after that one, the pace and direction on his passes) Welbeck is better and it isn't even close imo"

 

This just isn't true at all. I watch Man United pretty much every week - Welbeck's first touch is very erratic, just like Lukaku. His passing is often aimless and poor. Also, Lukaku is pretty good with both feet whereas Welbeck's left is useless. To say that he's far better than Lukaku in terms of actual footballing ability is sheer hyperbole.

 

To me the difference in favour of Welbeck is obvious. I, too, have seen plenty of Man United to form a reasonable opinion on him myself and he clearly looks good in that department to me whereas Lukaku stood out for having poor technique even in the Belgian league. I honestly don't know what you're talking about when you say Lukaku is pretty good with both feet. So lets agree to disagree.

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To me the difference in favour of Welbeck is obvious. I, too, have seen plenty of Man United to form a reasonable opinion on him myself and he clearly looks good in that department to me whereas Lukaku stood out for having poor technique even in the Belgian league. I honestly don't know what you're talking about when you say Lukaku is pretty good with both feet. So lets agree to disagree.

 

Lukaku can dribble and pass well with both feet. If I saw it for Everton then you must have too.

 

Lukaku was what? 16/17 when he played in Belgium. That's something else people are forgetting - Lukaku is a two and a half years younger than Welbeck and likely to improve in terms of technical ability.

 

I feel you're overrating Welbeck - and vastly at that. The list of attributes you've credited him with above is nowhere near the reality, imo. Lukaku has to brush up his technique, I've said it before. However, to say that Welbeck's touch, passing, intelligence and vision is not only better than Lukaku's but "far" better. Well, it's hyperbole of the highest order imo. Yeah, let's agree to disagree because I think you're completely wrong, and vice-versa. Let's see who's proved correct.

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Lukaku can dribble and pass well with both feet. If I saw it for Everton then you must have too.

 

Lukaku was what? 16/17 when he played in Belgium. That's something else people are forgetting - Lukaku is a two and a half years younger than Welbeck and likely to improve in terms of technical ability.

 

I feel you're overrating Welbeck - and vastly at that. The list of attributes you've credited him with above is nowhere near the reality, imo. Lukaku has to brush up his technique, I've said it before. However, to say that Welbeck's touch, passing, intelligence and vision is not only better than Lukaku's but "far" better. Well, it's hyperbole of the highest order imo. Yeah, let's agree to disagree because I think you're completely wrong, and vice-versa. Let's see who's proved correct.

 

Lukaku can't pass well with either foot, haven't seen him do it consistently for either Anderlecht, Belgium or Everton. Lukaku played in Belgium from 16 till 18, but as hafnia has already established, there's very limited technical development in players that age and I haven't seen much improvement in that area. The ball was bouncing off him when we were playing Sweden last week like it always has. I don't think I've mentioned Welbeck's vision and I've mentioned his intelligence in terms of his tactical understanding and discipline, which is quite obvious and a desirable trait even if you seem to deride that attribute as if it were something negative.

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Lukaku can't pass well with either foot, haven't seen him do it consistently for either Anderlecht, Belgium or Everton. Lukaku played in Belgium from 16 till 18, but as hafnia has already established, there's very limited technical development in players that age and I haven't seen much improvement in that area. The ball was bouncing off him when we were playing Sweden last week like it always has. I don't think I've mentioned Welbeck's vision and I've mentioned his intelligence in terms of his tactical understanding and discipline, which is quite obvious and a desirable trait even if you seem to deride that attribute as if it were something negative.

 

Er, where have I derided discipline and tactical understanding? That's right, I haven't. I simply said that he played as a defensive forward against Real Madrid. Tactical discipline is extremely important - you'd know I think that if you ever read my reasoning for why I think Steven Gerrard is vastly overrated.

 

Still think you're talking bollocks about Lukaku - he shows potential in terms of technique but you and haf talk about him like he's a donkey, probably because he won't be at Everton next season. The ball bounces off Welbeck a lot too but you never mention that. He's also had more headless chicken moments than you care to admit.Totally and utterly overrated.

 

Is this that thing where fans of a club who haven't been competing for the title assume that anyone who plays for a team which does contest the title (over the last twenty years) must be worthy of you? Welbeck is average as fuck and if he joins Everton as your main striker you will drop like a stone.

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Er, where have I derided discipline and tactical understanding? That's right, I haven't. I simply said that he played as a defensive forward against Real Madrid. Tactical discipline is extremely important - you'd know I think that if you ever read my reasoning for why I think Steven Gerrard is vastly overrated.

 

Here:

 

 

 

Still think you're talking bollocks about Lukaku - he shows potential in terms of technique but you and haf talk about him like he's a donkey, probably because he won't be at Everton next season. The ball bounces off Welbeck a lot too but you never mention that. He's also had more headless chicken moments than you care to admit.Totally and utterly overrated.

 

What is showing potential in terms of technique? I understand the ball isn't going to stick everytime, no player is capable of that, but it should be far more than it is. You can look at the occasions where Lukaku does do it well and think "ah, there's potential" or you can realize that this is the player he is technically and there's not going to be much improvement. The amount of time it takes Welbeck to control the ball, how close he manages to keep it to his body, the speed with which he moves his feet to get the second touch on the ball (I don't know how to describe this facet better, if Mirallas happens to know an English term for "handelingssnelheid" it would be much appreciated if he could share it) is just much better with him.

 

You also shouldn't make assumptions about my motivations, or about Shukes' motivations cause you've told him the "You're clearly overrating him because you feel Everton will sign him" bullshit too. I'd have Welbeck even if they cost the same and I think they could end up much closer than people are expecting. Welbeck is a 23-year-old England international and they don't come cheap. Lukaku is incredibly overrated by the general public and I don't think a top team that is likely to play around the opposition's box a lot and might spend a lot of games struggling to break through a deep block is gonna rate him. Even Mourinho, who's teams play on the counter a lot more than some of the other top teams, doesn't seem to have much use for him. If he's going to cost more than De Bruyne that would be a travesty. You can probably find a number of posts of mine from before we were ever even linked with Lukaku as well where I say that Benteke (who's no technical marvel himself) is the better player because of his link up play.

 

 

Is this that thing where fans of a club who haven't been competing for the title assume that anyone who plays for a team which does contest the title (over the last twenty years) must be worthy of you? Welbeck is average as fuck and if he joins Everton as your main striker you will drop like a stone.

 

 

Grow up.

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Is this that thing where fans of a club who haven't been competing for the title assume that anyone who plays for a team which does contest the title (over the last twenty years) must be worthy of you? Welbeck is average as fuck and if he joins Everton as your main striker you will drop like a stone.

 

Completely disagree with this statement. Now you're not giving Everton or Martinez enough credit. Even if he is average, he is still better than the likes of Jelavic, Anichebe, Vellios, etc... strikers that Martinez shipped out. If ole Bobby thinks he is good enough then I'll believe him.

 

My faith lies with Martinez and his tactical nous. Under Moyes, we consistently finished in the top 8, and Martinez is obviously the better manager of the two.

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Completely disagree with this statement. Now you're not giving Everton or Martinez enough credit. Average he may be, but he is still better than the likes of Jelavic, Anichebe, Vellios, etc... strikers that Martinez shipped out. If ole Bobby thinks he is good enough then I'll believe him.

 

My faith lies with Martinez and his tactical nous. Under Moyes, we consistently finished in the top 8, and Martinez is obviously the better manager of the two.

 

Everyone knows I rate Martinez highly. But Welbeck would get found out at Everton. His link up play would be shown to be average and he wouldn't replace Lukaku's goal output either. I genuinely believe he's very average and a mid-table player at best.

 

Welbeck isn't better than Jelavic either.

 

That's another appeal to authority, as I criticised that 'Shukes' guy for. Martinez is a great manager but he makes mistakes like everyone else. Trust your own judgement not someone else's.

 

That's too simple a way to look at it. The league is much more competitive than it was back when the top four was Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool every year, then City replacing Pool.

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Everyone knows I rate Martinez highly. But Welbeck would get found out at Everton. His link up play would be shown to be average and he wouldn't replace Lukaku's goal output either.

 

Welbeck isn't better than Jelavic either.

 

Jelavic's link-up play was atrocious. He is the very definition of "found out." He's a poacher and nothing more -- a poor man's Chicharito. I loved his spirit and wanted him to do well, but he petered out.

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Here:

 

 

 

 

What is showing potential in terms of technique? I understand the ball isn't going to stick everytime, no player is capable of that, but it should be far more than it is. You can look at the occasions where Lukaku does do it well and think "ah, there's potential" or you can realize that this is the player he is technically and there's not going to be much improvement. The amount of time it takes Welbeck to control the ball, how close he manages to keep it to his body, the speed with which he moves his feet to get the second touch on the ball (I don't know how to describe this facet better, if Mirallas happens to know an English term for "handelingssnelheid" it would be much appreciated if he could share it) is just much better with him.

 

You also shouldn't make assumptions about my motivations, or about Shukes' motivations cause you've told him the "You're clearly overrating him because you feel Everton will sign him" bullshit too. I'd have Welbeck even if they cost the same and I think they could end up much closer than people are expecting. Welbeck is a 23-year-old England international and they don't come cheap. Lukaku is incredibly overrated by the general public and I don't think a top team that is likely to play around the opposition's box a lot and might spend a lot of games struggling to break through a deep block is gonna rate him. Even Mourinho, who's teams play on the counter a lot more than some of the other top teams, doesn't seem to have much use for him. If he's going to cost more than De Bruyne that would be a travesty. You can probably find a number of posts of mine from before we were ever even linked with Lukaku as well where I say that Benteke (who's no technical marvel himself) is the better player because of his link up play.

 

 

 

Grow up.

 

I completely disagree with everything you're saying in regards to Lukaku and Welbeck's respective technical ability. I suppose we will have to wait and see what happens in future.

 

I wasn't deriding tactical discipline - I was laughing at your claims that he can score 20 goals a season despite the fact that his best attribute is his defensive work-rate.

 

As for telling me to 'grow up', there have been far more childish comments in here than mine - such as Shukes' little attacks on people and hafnia's 'you don't rate him because he's not popular' shite. Yet I notice you didn't tell them to grow up - probably because they're on your side.

 

I agree Benteke is better technically than Lukaku. If you want an overrated Belgian then look no further than Eden Hazard - a very good player but nauseatingly overrated relative to his peers. In fact the only reason I've been nice about him on here is that I didn't fancy being attacked by the Belgian contingent. I also think your country will crash and burn in the tournament, btw.

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Jelavic's link-up play was atrocious. He is the very definition of "found out." He's a poacher and nothing more -- a poor man's Chicharito. I loved his spirit and wanted him to do well, but he petered out.

 

A poor man's Hernandez (please don't call him by his cringeworthy nickname)...his build up play is easily better than Hernandez's. You're judging him on a loss of confidence under Moyes. Hernandez is a shite footballer and misses more chances than you realise. Nobody is a poor man's version of him. He's been garbage recently for Mexico too.

 

Seeing as people like appealing to authority on here, I think I will lower myself and give it a go - you should go ask Niko Kovac if (in a hypothetical world)he'd rather have Hernandez or Welbeck than Jelavic. I'm pretty sure he'd boot you out of the team hotel, and Jelavic isn't even first choice for Croatia. I wonder how Jelavic would do playing for a champions-level team such as Man U (pre Moyes).

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I completely disagree with everything you're saying in regards to Lukaku and Welbeck's respective technical ability. I suppose we will have to wait and see what happens in future.

 

As for telling me to 'grow up', there have been far more childish comments in here than mine - such as Shukes' little attacks on people and hafnia's 'you don't rate him because he's not popular' shite. Yet I notice you didn't tell them to grow up - probably because they're on your side.

 

I agree Benteke is better technically than Lukaku. If you want an overrated Belgian then look no further than Eden Hazard - a very good player but nauseatingly overrated relative to his peers. In fact the only reason I've been nice about him on here is that I didn't fancy being attacked by the Belgian contingent. I also think your country will crash and burn in the tournament, btw.

 

Back on the ignore list you go.

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Back on the ignore list you go.

 

I'm devastated that a Welbeck nut-hugger like yourself doesn't deem me worthy of discussion. Well played, genius.

 

Your usual MO of ignoring the parts you can't reply to. You clueless prick.

 

Just seen you were born in 1992...being ignored by a 22 year old kid who's been watching football for five minutes. Bellend.

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A poor man's Hernandez (please don't call him by his cringeworthy nickname)...his build up play is easily better than Hernandez's. You're judging him on a loss of confidence under Moyes. Hernandez is a shite footballer and misses more chances than you realise. Nobody is a poor man's version of him. He's been garbage recently for Mexico too.

 

Seeing as people like appealing to authority on here, I think I will lower myself and give it a go - you should go ask Niko Kovac if (in a hypothetical world)he'd rather have Hernandez or Welbeck than Jelavic. I'm pretty sure he'd boot you out of the team hotel, and Jelavic isn't even first choice for Croatia. I wonder how Jelavic would do playing for a champions-level team such as Man U (pre Moyes).

 

No, please, whatever you do, don't lower yourself to our level.

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No, please, whatever you do, don't lower yourself to our level.

 

Well, you did appeal to authority - even after I'd provided a link explaining why it's fallacious.

 

I actually like you but if you're going to be a prick then I will too.

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Well, you did appeal to authority - even after I'd provided a link explaining why it's fallacious.

 

I actually like you but if you're going to be a prick then I will too.

 

I think you need to go back and read that Wikipedia page again. No one's claiming to be an expert.

 

I'll accept being a prick as long as you accept that you love to put people in groups who disagree with you.

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I think you need to go back and read that Wikipedia page again. No one's claiming to be an expert.

 

I'll accept being a prick as long as you accept that you love to put people in groups who disagree with you.

 

That's not what an appeal to authority is. An appeal to authority is using expert knowledge to claim you're right. It's fallacious for an abundance of reasons, the primary one being that (in your case) you now have to agree with everything Martinez says. In fact, the nature of an appeal to authority is exactly what you say - people admit they aren't experts becuase they bow to what experts think.

 

Another issue with an appeal to authority is what if two experts have opposing opinions? What if a manager of equal ability to Martinez agrees with me that Welbeck is average? That's another flaw of the appeal to authority.

 

Who do I put in groups? This whole thing about me not accepting other views is hilarious: Shukes was the poster who demonstrated this personality flaw originally, and then hafnia in all his glory created straw men - he said that anyone who rates Lukaku above Welbeck is only doing so because they fall for popular opinion.

 

But yeah, it's me who refuses to accept opposing opinions and pigeon-holes people. Get a grip.

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Anyway, none of this would have happened if not for that moron Shukes deliberately trying to wind people up. Prick.

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That's not what an appeal to authority is. An appeal to authority is using expert knowledge to claim you're right. It's fallacious for an abundance of reasons, the primary one being that (in your case) you now have to agree with everything Martinez says. In fact, the nature of an appeal to authority is exactly what you say - people admit they aren't experts becuase they bow to what experts think.

 

Another issue with an appeal to authority is what if two experts have opposing opinions? What if a manager of equal ability to Martinez agrees with me that Welbeck is average? That's another flaw of the appeal tp authority.

 

Who do I put in groups? This whole thing about me not accepting other views is hilaruious: Shukes was the poster who demonstrated this personality flaw originally, and then hafnia in all his glory created straw men - he said that anyone who rates Lukaku above Welbeck is only doing so because they fall for popular opinion.

 

But yeah, it's me who refuses to accept opposing opinions and pigeon-holes people. Get a grip.

 

 

The fallacy in your argument is that Martinez has never come out and said that he rates Welbeck, so I'm not using his "expert knowledge" as a basis for my judgment of Welbeck. Jelavic was poor before Martinez (as evident in his last season and a half at Everton), as was Anichebe (all of his seasons here). Vellios apparently just didn't give a damn.

 

I said I would trust Martinez IF he acquired Welbeck, because so far his signings have worked for us (bar the injured).

 

I took issue with the fact that you think Everton would "drop like a stone" because of one player. I think that is ridiculous statement, and when you claim to that you don't want to stoop to our level (but do anyway), that is extremely condescending.

 

The funny thing is, is that if a highly-rated manager came out and agreed with YOU on Welbeck, then I could assume that you would be appealing to authority... or would you not, since you're apparently an expert, too? There's some fallacy for you.

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The fallacy in your argument is that Martinez has never come out and said that he rates Welbeck, so I'm not using his "expert knowledge" as a basis for my judgment of Welbeck. Jelavic was poor before Martinez (as evident in his last season and a half at Everton), as was Anichebe (all of his seasons here). Vellios apparently just didn't give a damn.

 

I said I would trust Martinez IF he acquired Welbeck, because so far his signings have worked for us (bar the injured).

 

I took issue with the fact that you think Everton would "drop like a stone" because of one player. I think that is ridiculous statement, and when you claim to that you don't want to stoop to our level (but do anyway), that is extremely condescending.

 

The funny thing is, is that if a highly-rated manager came out and agreed with YOU on Welbeck, then I could assume that you would be appealing to authority... or would you not, since your apparently an expert, too? There's some fallacy for you.

 

Jelavic was playing under Moyes, who destroyed his confidence. He could still do a job at Everton as a backup.

 

No, he didn't. However, you said if he did you'd trust him i.e. hypothetically. Therefore, you're saying you'd go along with whatever he thinks even if you disagree. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that - as long as you recognise he might be wrong. The problem I have is when it's used to oppose people who are of an alternate option, which Shukes did explicitly and you did implicitly.

 

Sorry, but I think you would drop like a stone. A system like Martinez employs needs a good CF, and I think welbeck's overrated link-up play and poor finishing would cost you dearly. With him in your team and not Lukaku I'd expect you to finish about 8th. Not quite a stone in numbers, but a fair drop given that there's only about 8 or 9 good teams in the entire league. The entire bottom half ranges from average to piss poor.

 

Er no. I wouldn't say 'this guy agrees so I must be right' (hence why I said I was stooping to your level with the Kovac reference). I've never claimed to be an 'expert', but I give my honest view on players (and when I can be bothered I back up why I think what I do). If someone agreed with me it would be by coincidence - my views on Welbeck are what I have saw, nothing else. In fact people whose opinions on the game I respect disagree with me on Welbeck, but I stick to my guns as I don't defer to what others think - it's called free will and free thinking. What I don't tend to do is say 'hey, this manager agrees so that's in my favour on this debate' - because it's a fallacious argument. The same manager will disagree with me on other footballing matters. I only did it above (with Kovac) to show you how pointless it is. So your last paragraph makes no sense.

 

It's actually quite alarming that so many adults seem unaware of the appeal to authority fallacy. I've faced it in literally every disagreement I have ever had online. It's unforgivable, really.

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Not getting involved but I have to just point out that anyone who uses "hence why" needs to be castrated by the grammar police....it's tautology and one of the (many) manglings of English that wind me up on a daily basis, but it's near the top of the list. Sorry Nikica, I'm out of here now.

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Not getting involved but I have to just point out that anyone who uses "hence why" needs to be castrated by the grammar police....it's tautology and one of the (many) manglings of English that wind me up on a daily basis, but it's near the top of the list. Sorry Nikica, I'm out of here now.

Fair point. If I did it it's because I had bigger things on my mind.

However, you should probably learn how to use an ellipsis properly before climbing that horse.

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Fair point. If I did it it's because I had bigger things on my mind.

However, you should probably learn how to use an ellipsis properly before climbing that horse.

Touché (with an accent on the e). I shall use a semi colon next time.

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Touche (with an accent on the e). I shall use a semi colon next time.

 

It's all very petty either way.

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Anyway, back on topic - I can't wait for Welbeck's career to fall apart (if it hasn't already). By all accounts he's a prick so he has it coming to him.

 

Ten years from now some of you will cringe at this discussion.

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I don't need to man up. I'm simply pointing out the folly of judging a poster based on what they think of one player. It's even more pathetic in this case as the general consensus seems to be that Welbeck was rubbish the other night, which would indicate you're the one who's clueless and arrogant (although this is an appeal to popularity, which is flawed). Having watched Welbeck myself I definitely trust my own eyes over your analysis. You're clearly overrating him because you feel Everton will sign him. Thinking Welbeck is an average player or had a bad game is hardly controversial is it?

 

Perhaps you could let me know some of your opinions on football? So that I can pick out the odd one or two I disagree with and call you clueless as a result.

 

Welbeck of all people :rolleyes: Clearly you don't follow foreign football much if you are impressed by a guy like Welbeck (two can play the condescending game).

You really think about of yourself don't you haha.

 

Make out what you want about my comments friend, if you take them personally then so be it. I'm here to debate not argue. You have turned my comments into something entirely different and that's your choice.

 

My comments stand and I hope that all other posters take them for what they are and what you are trying to turn them into.

 

Now if you want to continue this conversation I would be happy to have it in private. If you want to continue debating Welbeck then I'm happy to do it on the forums.

 

Simple fact is that I am right about Welbeck and ypu don't like it, hey I get that! I hate losing too.

 

But seriously you can't use the me against others debate as a reason why each others opinion is correct. I am just a retired semi pro footballer who is now a personell manager. The managers and coaches who make the choices are far better qualifies than me and you.

 

I stand by my comment was tongue in cheek and meant to get a reaction but all I'm the name of forum fun! I never meant you to take it so seriously. We're debating a footballer that's all.

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I have just read a lot more dribble from you pal and I have to admit..... I take back my last post. If you took it personally I am now so happy.

 

You seem to think you are a very educated person and that your intelligence is of a superior level than most here... The fact you seem to have a reason why everyone's opinion is flawed and have also on several occasions corrected many people... Well get you!

 

Simple fact for me is that of all the people you have questioned.... Other than me, I admit I am of low intelligence and knowledge, but I value their opinions more as they are more in tune with football than most people I know

 

You admit you are a deep thinker, could I suggest over thinker? And I mean that as no insult. Just something to think about... But not too much ;-)

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Anyway, none of this would have happened if not for that moron Shukes deliberately trying to wind people up. Prick.

There goes the intelligence debate! Game set and match I think.

Like I said man up son!

Or get frustrated because your notvgetting your way... Cry in a corner and think of a happy place.

 

Damn I have just opened myself up for another insult from the highly intelligent and ruthless Nic.. Whatever his name was.

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So any one think we should sign Welbeck then?

Hope he plays tonight as I would like to look closer at him.

Would be nice to see him play centrally so we can see and judge him in a position that he may be deployed in if we brought him.

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Would it not just be a better idea to stop with the petty nonsense and get back to actually have a decent debate about the skills (or lack of) Welbeck.

 

I have looked back at some Youtube videos because they generally show every player in a good light but with Welbeck they are almost exclusively 40 yards out because the truth is that is where his best works comes. I dont think I have yet seen an occasion where he has tried to play someone else in on goal and that backs up exactly what I have seen of him in other games. His link up play is ok, nothing more, he close control on reflection is probably marginally better than Lukaku in that he has 'quicker' feet and maybe in that respect his dribbling too but its not by much. Its also worth considering that Welbeck has mostly plied his trade against smaller FB's in more space as opposed to Lukaku who has been working against CB's with little space. Welbeck should purely by chance have more time to control the ball, less pressure to control the ball and therefore more space to run into and more space to look up and play a pass. Dont forget, the one game Lukaku did play wide, he dominated from start to finish and made the most of the space I alluded too, albeit in just one game. In that respect I would like to see how Welbeck does with his back to goal against a compact back 4 and midfield 4, mainly because there arent a lot of examples of it and because given what I have seen, he would probably just as bad an option as Lukaku in those senarios. Yes he would be better in a defensive unit because he is more disciplined and works harder but if that is your biggest asset for a striker then it says all you really need to know.

 

In terms of the build up play/passing that has been mentioned, I know stats arent the be all and end all but they do give you a little snapshot of a player and I think in this instance they show the key difference between the two players. I would say Welbeck is the better player from 50-30 yards out, he works harder, he has better acceleration to react to loose balls and this is where he seems happiest in terms of laying the ball off to someone else before making his way further up the pitch. When he gets into the goal scoring areas that is where his limitations show. I have seen a few good little dribbles he has made or where he has used his quick feet to create space but they take him wide or backwards most of the time. If he makes a run, he goes into a blind alley, he doesnt look up for options and it results in the ball turning over because he gets crowded out by the other teams defenders. Lukaku is more incisive. He isnt the best passer of the ball or the best decision maker but you can tell from what he does that he sees the pass and he knows how to bring others into the game to create a goal scoring opportunity and more often than not he takes that opportunity. You pay £20mil for Lukaku because he is a threat whereas Welbecks threat is limited. I have even watched back his goals this season and I would estimate over 75% of them were 1 vs 1's either from errors, poor defending/keeping or luck. I know every striker gets that element to their goals but it was more than I was expecting in truth. He scores a couple of nice ones though including the chipped goal against Swansea.

 

Like Lukaku, he would be a decent enough signing at the right price but I would have Lukaku every day of the week ahead of Welbeck if I had a choice.

 

Another thing to consider with Welbeck, is that he wont come cheap either. He would be one of our highest earners and IMO he hasnt done anywhere near enough to warrant that.

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Not as good as Sturridge hasn't showed any signs he will be. Sturridge wasn't played enough at other clubs but when he went to Bolton he scored for fun same at Liverpool.

 

I don't rate Welbeck tbh

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Bailey I can't argue with any of that.

Damn you!

 

Interesting point about his best area of play too. If I get chance I will take another look at the videos and look at where his best play is.

 

Do you think he would be good value at 10m? For me it's not much of a risk and I don't see what else we could get for that.

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Would it not just be a better idea to stop with the petty nonsense and get back to actually have a decent debate about the skills (or lack of) Welbeck.

 

I have looked back at some Youtube videos because they generally show every player in a good light but with Welbeck they are almost exclusively 40 yards out because the truth is that is where his best works comes. I dont think I have yet seen an occasion where he has tried to play someone else in on goal and that backs up exactly what I have seen of him in other games. His link up play is ok, nothing more, he close control on reflection is probably marginally better than Lukaku in that he has 'quicker' feet and maybe in that respect his dribbling too but its not by much. Its also worth considering that Welbeck has mostly plied his trade against smaller FB's in more space as opposed to Lukaku who has been working against CB's with little space. Welbeck should purely by chance have more time to control the ball, less pressure to control the ball and therefore more space to run into and more space to look up and play a pass. Dont forget, the one game Lukaku did play wide, he dominated from start to finish and made the most of the space I alluded too, albeit in just one game. In that respect I would like to see how Welbeck does with his back to goal against a compact back 4 and midfield 4, mainly because there arent a lot of examples of it and because given what I have seen, he would probably just as bad an option as Lukaku in those senarios. Yes he would be better in a defensive unit because he is more disciplined and works harder but if that is your biggest asset for a striker then it says all you really need to know.

 

In terms of the build up play/passing that has been mentioned, I know stats arent the be all and end all but they do give you a little snapshot of a player and I think in this instance they show the key difference between the two players. I would say Welbeck is the better player from 50-30 yards out, he works harder, he has better acceleration to react to loose balls and this is where he seems happiest in terms of laying the ball off to someone else before making his way further up the pitch. When he gets into the goal scoring areas that is where his limitations show. I have seen a few good little dribbles he has made or where he has used his quick feet to create space but they take him wide or backwards most of the time. If he makes a run, he goes into a blind alley, he doesnt look up for options and it results in the ball turning over because he gets crowded out by the other teams defenders. Lukaku is more incisive. He isnt the best passer of the ball or the best decision maker but you can tell from what he does that he sees the pass and he knows how to bring others into the game to create a goal scoring opportunity and more often than not he takes that opportunity. You pay £20mil for Lukaku because he is a threat whereas Welbecks threat is limited. I have even watched back his goals this season and I would estimate over 75% of them were 1 vs 1's either from errors, poor defending/keeping or luck. I know every striker gets that element to their goals but it was more than I was expecting in truth. He scores a couple of nice ones though including the chipped goal against Swansea.

 

Like Lukaku, he would be a decent enough signing at the right price but I would have Lukaku every day of the week ahead of Welbeck if I had a choice.

 

Another thing to consider with Welbeck, is that he wont come cheap either. He would be one of our highest earners and IMO he hasnt done anywhere near enough to warrant that.

 

I think the biggest concern people seem to be having with Welbeck is that he doesn't score goals, either because he's a shit finisher or because he isn't a threat in the box. But this Youtube clip showing his goals from this season seems to suggest that if he is played up front rather than out wide, that he is going to get in goalscoring positions in that central area in the box right in front of goal. Those are the goals you can repeat year in and year out. I don't see much luck involved either. There's some luck in how he gets into the position to score against Norwich, but he shows fine composure for someone who's supposedly the worst finisher in Premier League history. The goal at 00:47 might result from bad defending, a player that isn't as fast and doesn't have that first touch down still wouldn't score.

 

Look at the linkup play at 1:52, at 2:08. Or at 0:39 or 0:42 in this clip. At 2:10 you can see an instance of his touch on a difficult pass coming at him through the air with a defender all over his back btw. You should look at the entire second clip btw to see his skill on the ball and on several occasions really good decision making.

 

Also, you can't compare Lukaku playing on the wing against Arsenal to how Welbeck plays on the wing for Man U. Our entire set up that game was meant to create even more space for Lukaku than he'd normally have. With Cazorla not tracking back and Sagna thus having to step out at Baines, Mirallas hugging the touchline drawing one centre back over and Naismith making runs in the channel on that side of the pitch as well thus occupying the other centre back. That way Lukaku was isolated against Monreal and he had 50% of the width entire pitch to take him out.

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