Hafnia Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 in some respects you are correct, but then my argument to that would be, don't DARE call yourselves the PEOPLES CLUB when you won't tell your people what the hell is going on :shaking fist: Supporting a football club is an emotional concern. Indirectly we as fans of Everton F.C are stakeholders...every fan that will attend a game, buy a shirt contributes to the ability of the club to operate - and we have no right to question as to what is going on? Without the fans, there is no club - simple as that. We pay taxes to the government and we certainly have plenty to say about how our country is being run. Why can't we continue to ask questions that warrant answers that will enlighten us, and allow us to make informed choices? Instead of telling us what they want to tell us, answer the questions that the likes of the Peoples Group and Share holders are asking: If it's for sale, as it needs to be, How much is the asking price? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 in some respects you are correct, but then my argument to that would be, don't DARE call yourselves the PEOPLES CLUB when you won't tell your people what the hell is going on :shaking fist: The club don't call themselves The People's Club any more.. I don't know all the details but a city centre street trader registered "The People's Club" and from what I understand, there was no threat from the trader towards the club about using the term, the club simply chose not to continue using it. The club re-branded and started using "Nil Satis Nisi Optimum" as a tagline. Apparently, the club had some merchandise with "Nil Satis" which was pulled when it was pointed out that it meant "No satisfaction". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 The club don't call themselves The People's Club any more.. I don't know all the details but a city centre street trader registered "The People's Club" and from what I understand, there was no threat from the trader towards the club about using the term, the club simply chose not to continue using it. The club re-branded and started using "Nil Satis Nisi Optimum" as a tagline. Apparently, the club had some merchandise with "Nil Satis" which was pulled when it was pointed out that it meant "No satisfaction". You really couldn't make it up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pax Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 in some respects you are correct, but then my argument to that would be, don't DARE call yourselves the PEOPLES CLUB when you won't tell your people what the hell is going on :shaking fist: Oh i quite agree. I've always hated that slogan anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pax Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 The club don't call themselves The People's Club any more.. I don't know all the details but a city centre street trader registered "The People's Club" and from what I understand, there was no threat from the trader towards the club about using the term, the club simply chose not to continue using it. The club re-branded and started using "Nil Satis Nisi Optimum" as a tagline. Apparently, the club had some merchandise with "Nil Satis" which was pulled when it was pointed out that it meant "No satisfaction". Yeah i read that too. Will it be removed from the back of the Park End Stand anytime soon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pax Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Has someone upset you Hafnia hahaha, i totally agree tho mate! Small man syndrome Luckily i put it on ignore a week ago and this place has suddenly become a more intelligent forum that is aware of reality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Small man syndrome Luckily i put it on ignore a week ago and this place has suddenly become a more intelligent forum that is aware of reality What is reality pax? Is it the abilty to evaluate ability in "everything" by multiples of 3? Is reality believing spin that you are fed? Or is reality digging for the truth against the very people determined not to give answers to questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 What is reality pax? Is it the abilty to evaluate ability in "everything" by multiples of 3? Is reality believing spin that you are fed? Or is reality digging for the truth against the very people determined not to give answers to questions? He won't even see this post, he's put you on ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Yeah i read that too. Will it be removed from the back of the Park End Stand anytime soon? It's been removed.. link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 He won't even see this post, he's put you on ignore. I actually think it's bill, do not ask any questions he can't answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 It's been removed.. link That was in 09' ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlmc25 Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Instead of telling us what they want to tell us, answer the questions that the likes of the Peoples Group and Share holders are asking: If it's for sale, as it needs to be, How much is the asking price? Why would they tell you that? it's not in their best interests to announce the asking price and then let people try and haggle it down or open up a can of worms with some fans moaning it's not enough, some moaning it's too much etc etc. Virtually no business openly states the asking price, they haggle for the best deal, people want to see the books etc and the price will depend on assets on the pitch, performance, league position etc. You're not the owner, you're not the chairman, you're just a customer - would you expect Tesco to tell you what their asking price is as well? If you want to know the price, set up a mega successful business and try and buy us. As stated before in this topic, just because they won't state what they're asking doesn't mean it isn't for sale. Nearly everyone or every business has a price, we just need the right buyer and there aren't many around. I see there are rumours of the owners of Blackburn selling up and leaving them right in it... yet all Everton fans want is to be taken over, haven't you seen what has happened to some of the other clubs? we need investment, but the right investment. I like to believe that is what Bill is waiting for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Why would they tell you that? it's not in their best interests to announce the asking price and then let people try and haggle it down or open up a can of worms with some fans moaning it's not enough, some moaning it's too much etc etc. Virtually no business openly states the asking price, they haggle for the best deal, people want to see the books etc and the price will depend on assets on the pitch, performance, league position etc. You're not the owner, you're not the chairman, you're just a customer - would you expect Tesco to tell you what their asking price is as well? If you want to know the price, set up a mega successful business and try and buy us. As stated before in this topic, just because they won't state what they're asking doesn't mean it isn't for sale. Nearly everyone or every business has a price, we just need the right buyer and there aren't many around. I see there are rumours of the owners of Blackburn selling up and leaving them right in it... yet all Everton fans want is to be taken over, haven't you seen what has happened to some of the other clubs? we need investment, but the right investment. I like to believe that is what Bill is waiting for. 11 years is a hell of a long time to wait though, especially with some of the cock-ups that have happened along the way, NTL,Kings Dock,Kirby,Fortress etc etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlmc25 Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 11 years is a hell of a long time to wait though, especially with some of the cock-ups that have happened along the way, NTL,Kings Dock,Kirby,Fortress etc etc I agree but I also remember that before BK we had PJ who was an absolute joke. I remember the manager we had, the teams we had, the football we played when BK took over and look at us now, we've made huge strides forward. The frustration is we just don't have the money to take the next step and capitalise on all the work Moyes has done. It's annoying for everyone and I want us to find some dream buyer as much as anyone else, but I don't want us selling to any old guy who's motives are dubious at best. No business tells their fans/customers everything, they don't even tell their employees everything. I would hope they are too busy working and doing their best and don't have time to hold everyone's hands and keep everyone updated on every potential deal or transfer. They tell us when there is solid news. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I agree but I also remember that before BK we had PJ who was an absolute joke. I remember the manager we had, the teams we had, the football we played when BK took over and look at us now, we've made huge strides forward. The frustration is we just don't have the money to take the next step and capitalise on all the work Moyes has done. It's annoying for everyone and I want us to find some dream buyer as much as anyone else, but I don't want us selling to any old guy who's motives are dubious at best. No business tells their fans/customers everything, they don't even tell their employees everything. I would hope they are too busy working and doing their best and don't have time to hold everyone's hands and keep everyone updated on every potential deal or transfer. They tell us when there is solid news. We have more debt and less assets now than we did under Johnson? You need to disassociate moyes achievement of operating on a pretty much zilch net transfer budget in your appraisal of bill and co. Our credit rating is so poor we can't borrow any money?! We have no assets apart from players, goodison is mortgaged, we do not own any training facilities, we have sold 3 training grounds under kenwright and we now own none. debt has doubled under kenwright despite selling off assets including Rooney. He is taking us down, never mind saving us from the big bad potential owners out there who have nothing to gain from an asset stripped club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I agree but I also remember that before BK we had PJ who was an absolute joke. I remember the manager we had, the teams we had, the football we played when BK took over and look at us now, we've made huge strides forward. The frustration is we just don't have the money to take the next step and capitalise on all the work Moyes has done. It's annoying for everyone and I want us to find some dream buyer as much as anyone else, but I don't want us selling to any old guy who's motives are dubious at best. No business tells their fans/customers everything, they don't even tell their employees everything. I would hope they are too busy working and doing their best and don't have time to hold everyone's hands and keep everyone updated on every potential deal or transfer. They tell us when there is solid news. just remember who PJ partner in crime and fellow board member was back then? oh yes our good friend Mr B Kenwright, i don't blame Kenwright for everything, tbh, i think Philip Green is behind alot of whats going on, but Bill is the clubs figurehead and he is the person who has spoken about alot of the topics people want answers too, thats why he gets all the shit thrown at him but the fact the guy had to borrow money to buy his share of the club in the first place should have really told us all that he never was really in a position to run the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlmc25 Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 We have more debt and less assets now than we did under Johnson? You need to disassociate moyes achievement of operating on a pretty much zilch net transfer budget in your appraisal of bill and co. Our credit rating is so poor we can't borrow any money?! We have no assets apart from players, goodison is mortgaged, we do not own any training facilities, we have sold 3 training grounds under kenwright and we now own none. debt has doubled under kenwright despite selling off assets including Rooney. He is taking us down, never mind saving us from the big bad potential owners out there who have nothing to gain from an asset stripped club. Yes the assets are on the pitch, where do you want them - in the grounds, the stand etc and have us playing in the Championship? We have far more worth now than before, the assets on the pitch are substantial and would easily wipe out any debt we have, that was not true when BK took over when our team was a joke. So in reality, assets wise, we are in a far healthier position than when he took over. Sell Fellaini and Rodwell and there goes £30 - 40m off the debt and we still have a miles better team than we did when he took over. BK is in charge of the club, Moyes wouldn't have been so successful if BK hadn't put us further into debt to sanction the players and wages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) Yes the assets are on the pitch, where do you want them - in the grounds, the stand etc and have us playing in the Championship? We have far more worth now than before, the assets on the pitch are substantial and would easily wipe out any debt we have, that was not true when BK took over when our team was a joke. So in reality, assets wise, we are in a far healthier position than when he took over. Sell Fellaini and Rodwell and there goes £30 - 40m off the debt and we still have a miles better team than we did when he took over. BK is in charge of the club, Moyes wouldn't have been so successful if BK hadn't put us further into debt to sanction the players and wages. Assets on the pitch and nothing left is a good scenario? We have no more assets to leverage further borrowing to replace players coming to the end of their careers. We secure money based on future season ticket sales and TV revenue already. None of this happened on PJ's watch. My estimated values: Let's not get into a bun fight over values, as the scenario is that we will soon have to sell - not choose to sell which means less money. Jan Mucha - £1m Tim Howard - £4m Tony Hibbert £0.5m - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £4m) Leighton Baines - £20m Joseph Yobo - £3m John Heitinga - £6m Phil Jagielka - £20m Sylvain Distin - N/A - needs replacing within next two years (current replacement cost £8m) James Wallace - N/A Diniyar Bilyaletdinov - £4m Mikel Arteta - £10m - needs replacing in next 4 years (current replacement cost £18m) Tim Cahill - £3m - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £12m) Phil Neville - N/A - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £8m) Leon Osman - £5m Marouane Fellaini - £25m Jack Rodwell - £15m Jose Baxter - £3m Louis Saha - £2m - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £14m) Jermaine Beckford - £4m Magaye Gueye - £2m Aiyegbeni Yakubu - £4m (needs replacing in nerxt two years (current replacement cost £10m) Victor Anichebe - £3m Ross Barkley - £4m Velios - £2m That is approx £120-130m of first team squad players - take into account those who are nearing the end of their career and the value IMO it would cost to get a younger like for like replacement and you are talking about having to generate £75m from the actual assets contained within that £120m pool of players to backfill 7 vacancies... In the highly unlikely scenario that lesser quality replacements will inflate inline with the sales made to generate such funds and you are talking about diluting the quality of the team = lower league positions = lower revenue = potential relegation. A vicious circle we are in i'm afraid. Scary ain't it... Edited July 22, 2011 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Assets on the pitch and nothing left is a good scenario? We have no more assets to leverage further borrowing to replace players coming to the end of their careers. We secure money based on future season ticket sales and TV revenue already. None of this happened on PJ's watch. My estimated values: Let's not get into a bun fight over values, as the scenario is that we will soon have to sell - not choose to sell which means less money. Jan Mucha - £1m Tim Howard - £4m Tony Hibbert £0.5m - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £4m) Leighton Baines - £20m Joseph Yobo - £3m John Heitinga - £6m Phil Jagielka - £20m Sylvain Distin - N/A - needs replacing within next two years (current replacement cost £8m) James Wallace - N/A Diniyar Bilyaletdinov - £4m Mikel Arteta - £10m - needs replacing in next 4 years (current replacement cost £18m) Tim Cahill - £3m - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £12m) Phil Neville - N/A - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £8m) Leon Osman - £5m Marouane Fellaini - £25m Jack Rodwell - £15m Jose Baxter - £3m Louis Saha - £2m - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £14m) Jermaine Beckford - £4m Magaye Gueye - £2m Aiyegbeni Yakubu - £4m Victor Anichebe - £3m - needs replacing in nerxt two years (current replacement cost £10m) Ross Barkley - £4m Velios - £2m That is approx £120-130m of first team squad players - take into account those who are nearing the end of their career and the value IMO it would cost to get a younger like for like replacement and you are talking about having to generate £75m from the actual assets contained within that £120m pool of players to backfill 7 vacancies... In the highly unlikely scenario that lesser quality replacements will inflate inline with the sales made to generate such funds and you are talking about diluting the quality of the team = lower league positions = lower revenue = potential relegation. A vicious circle we are in i'm afraid. Scary ain't it... This make no sense. Players are worth much more than just their transfer fees, they are very important financial assets, eg. man u giving Rooney a huge pay rise to increase his asset worth to balance their books. You don't seem to grasp this at all, and come across with an almost champ man '99 influence in you're idea/opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Interesting announcement on The People's Group facebook page... "None of us will be able to moderate the site for a few hours.So because of the mindless idiots (Kenwright backers) who ironically try and tell us our group are not fans we are just stopping wall post until late tonight.Hope the true fans understand!" So those that disagree with them and back Bill are not true fans and, in some cases, are mindless idiots. Balanced. Maybe they should change their name to The People that agree with us Group? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Interesting announcement on The People's Group facebook page... "None of us will be able to moderate the site for a few hours.So because of the mindless idiots (Kenwright backers) who ironically try and tell us our group are not fans we are just stopping wall post until late tonight.Hope the true fans understand!" So those that disagree with them and back Bill are not true fans and, in some cases, are mindless idiots. Balanced. Maybe they should change their name to The People that agree with us Group? I agree entirely, however it has attracted a vast number of red nose trolls etc. There has been vile racist abuse aimed at one particular fan on there. Facebook is not an ideal way of conducting discussion. I believe the right to debate should exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowensda Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Interesting announcement on The People's Group facebook page... "None of us will be able to moderate the site for a few hours.So because of the mindless idiots (Kenwright backers) who ironically try and tell us our group are not fans we are just stopping wall post until late tonight.Hope the true fans understand!" So those that disagree with them and back Bill are not true fans and, in some cases, are mindless idiots. Balanced. Maybe they should change their name to The People that agree with us Group? IMO that paragraph destroyed the only bit of credibility they had. credibility. Im glad you see that point Haf because the real idiots are in charge of that account, if you want people to start takin things seriously, that shit has to be eradicated! Get involved son, take lead, you can string two words together unlike them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pax Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Interesting announcement on The People's Group facebook page... "None of us will be able to moderate the site for a few hours.So because of the mindless idiots (Kenwright backers) who ironically try and tell us our group are not fans we are just stopping wall post until late tonight.Hope the true fans understand!" So those that disagree with them and back Bill are not true fans and, in some cases, are mindless idiots. Balanced. Maybe they should change their name to The People that agree with us Group? What a complete bunch of idiots. This is why they will never receive any support from me, that and they have absolutely no argument beyond guess work and speculation Maybe the ironically named 'Peoples Group' should start their own club? They can then run it how they like (into the ground). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 (edited) IMO that paragraph destroyed the only bit of credibility they had. credibility. Im glad you see that point Haf because the real idiots are in charge of that account, if you want people to start takin things seriously, that shit has to be eradicated! Get involved son, take lead, you can string two words together unlike them! The problem we have Tenacious is that fans with similar sentiments to others who have different ethics can lose sight of the overall aim and once the rebels have been roused - it gets daft. There is already talk of protests at Villareal - I am unsure as to the benefit of this when there are better ways as initially suggested of achioeving things. I am happy to follow them as long as people with different views are allowed to speak and give their point of view, without silly pedantic responses from either side. My view and question (which I did challenge Pax) to respond to is: If anyone can provide me with a case as to why the chairman and the board have not been responsible for the perilous state of the club I would happily read it. If they can dismiss Kings Dock, the money spent againbst the failed NTL deal, the lies that were the fortress fund, the waste of time that was Kirby and tell me the culprits responsible, I will gladly review my stance. Until then I remain in suspicion as to who the true owners are of Everton F.C, and inline with that, the asking price if there is one. If as I suspect, the current members of the board overseen such major mistakes and mismanagement then their stay in control of this club should be challenged. Edited July 22, 2011 by Hafnia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 This make no sense. Players are worth much more than just their transfer fees, they are very important financial assets, eg. man u giving Rooney a huge pay rise to increase his asset worth to balance their books. You don't seem to grasp this at all, and come across with an almost champ man '99 influence in you're idea/opinion? I do grasp it entirely strangely enough. The stadium, training grounds etc are classed as fixed assets. The liklihood is that in most cases you are guaranteed to increase on your initial investment (land costs increases etc) Players are intangible assets, the value can go up or down versus your outlay and are far less dependable than the fixed assets such as land. Land does not suffer the same volatile pricing that players do. Loss of form, injury, Bosman ruling. Players are high risk in thatt regard. We have a very fine balancing act to do at our club with our intangible assets, as we have no option but to sell at the time that most of the competitors understand we do due our financial standing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 If anyone can provide me with a case as to why the chairman and the board have not been responsible for the perilous state of the club I would happily read it. If they can dismiss Kings Dock, the money spent againbst the failed NTL deal, the lies that were the fortress fund, the waste of time that was Kirby and tell me the culprits responsible, I will gladly review my stance. Until then I remain in suspicion as to who the true owners are of Everton F.C, and inline with that, the asking price if there is one. If as I suspect, the current members of the board overseen such major mistakes and mismanagement then their stay in control of this club should be challenged. For me (in fairly simplistic terms which I've put before so pass on by on the other side of the road if you've already heard it) I don't dismiss any of the historic mistakes that have been made. What I believe is that Bill, at the times these things occurred, believed what he was saying to be true and always believed that he was acting in the best interests of the club. I believe the club is for sale and I can fully understand why they won't divulge an asking price (although Louis says that the figure is already out there). I believe that he'd sell/dilute his shareholding tomorrow if the right offer was on the table. My opinion is based solely on my impression of him as a man, mostly through the media but once, many many years ago when I had short-term business dealings with him as a client. I trust him. That's it really....but it seems that makes me not a true fan . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlmc25 Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Assets on the pitch and nothing left is a good scenario? We have no more assets to leverage further borrowing to replace players coming to the end of their careers. We secure money based on future season ticket sales and TV revenue already. None of this happened on PJ's watch. My estimated values: Let's not get into a bun fight over values, as the scenario is that we will soon have to sell - not choose to sell which means less money. Jan Mucha - £1m Tim Howard - £4m Tony Hibbert £0.5m - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £4m) Leighton Baines - £20m Joseph Yobo - £3m John Heitinga - £6m Phil Jagielka - £20m Sylvain Distin - N/A - needs replacing within next two years (current replacement cost £8m) James Wallace - N/A Diniyar Bilyaletdinov - £4m Mikel Arteta - £10m - needs replacing in next 4 years (current replacement cost £18m) Tim Cahill - £3m - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £12m) Phil Neville - N/A - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £8m) Leon Osman - £5m Marouane Fellaini - £25m Jack Rodwell - £15m Jose Baxter - £3m Louis Saha - £2m - needs replacing in next two years (current replacement cost £14m) Jermaine Beckford - £4m Magaye Gueye - £2m Aiyegbeni Yakubu - £4m (needs replacing in nerxt two years (current replacement cost £10m) Victor Anichebe - £3m Ross Barkley - £4m Velios - £2m That is approx £120-130m of first team squad players - take into account those who are nearing the end of their career and the value IMO it would cost to get a younger like for like replacement and you are talking about having to generate £75m from the actual assets contained within that £120m pool of players to backfill 7 vacancies... In the highly unlikely scenario that lesser quality replacements will inflate inline with the sales made to generate such funds and you are talking about diluting the quality of the team = lower league positions = lower revenue = potential relegation. A vicious circle we are in i'm afraid. Scary ain't it... This quite frankly is nonsense. We may have youth players coming through so why do we need to spend £8m to replace Distin when we got him for nothing? You're just talking pie in the sky figures. The whole point of my argument (and I think Elstone's) is that we have put our money into the squad. I can't even remember what we sold Bellefield for and quite frankly who cares, we could sell Jagielka tomorrow and buy it back and have loose change I assume, how is it a big deal? Didn't we sell it for something like £7m, that bought us Arteta and Cahill and left us with loose change, we could sell those players for at least £15m tomorrow and so that leave us with more than a 100% return. Now do you get it? assets are assets. You say land doesn't go down in value, didn't you hear about the housing crash and economic crash? land isn't going for anything like it was so we sold at a good time. The fact is we could easily wipe out our debt and still field a team that would keep us in the premiership. When BK took over we were only just about keeping in the premiership and selling all of our players probably still wouldn't have wiped out the debt and would have left us with no players. So how exactly are we in a worse position? it's better to have assets on the pitch as they generate money for finishing higher in the league, attract sponsorship, draw crowds and attract tv coverage etc. The better players we have the higher our profile and the bigger the draw. No one else gives a toss whether we own our own training ground. They look at the worth of our assets, all of our assets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 For me (in fairly simplistic terms which I've put before so pass on by on the other side of the road if you've already heard it) I don't dismiss any of the historic mistakes that have been made. What I believe is that Bill, at the times these things occurred, believed what he was saying to be true and always believed that he was acting in the best interests of the club. I believe the club is for sale and I can fully understand why they won't divulge an asking price (although Louis says that the figure is already out there). I believe that he'd sell/dilute his shareholding tomorrow if the right offer was on the table. My opinion is based solely on my impression of him as a man, mostly through the media but once, many many years ago when I had short-term business dealings with him as a client. I trust him. That's it really....but it seems that makes me not a true fan . I respect that. It doesn't alter my stance, however you haven't dismissed or ridiculed mine so fairs fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 I do grasp it entirely strangely enough. The stadium, training grounds etc are classed as fixed assets. The liklihood is that in most cases you are guaranteed to increase on your initial investment (land costs increases etc) Players are intangible assets, the value can go up or down versus your outlay and are far less dependable than the fixed assets such as land. Land does not suffer the same volatile pricing that players do. Loss of form, injury, Bosman ruling. Players are high risk in thatt regard. We have a very fine balancing act to do at our club with our intangible assets, as we have no option but to sell at the time that most of the competitors understand we do due our financial standing. So would you rather have the old complexes over less debt, better players and better (however rented)facilities, one of the best in Europe, and is a great incentive/attraction for players to come to us, helping us attract players over the 'top teams' as well as retaining them for a longer period to get a better value when we do sell. Before Kenwright our players had very little sell on value, if any and the club was close to financially f*cked. We now sell to buy, but this is much better than financing through bank loans on fixed assets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 This quite frankly is nonsense. We may have youth players coming through so why do we need to spend £8m to replace Distin when we got him for nothing? You're just talking pie in the sky figures. The whole point of my argument (and I think Elstone's) is that we have put our money into the squad. I can't even remember what we sold Bellefield for and quite frankly who cares, we could sell Jagielka tomorrow and buy it back and have loose change I assume, how is it a big deal? Didn't we sell it for something like £7m, that bought us Arteta and Cahill and left us with loose change, we could sell those players for at least £15m tomorrow and so that leave us with more than a 100% return. Now do you get it? assets are assets. You say land doesn't go down in value, didn't you hear about the housing crash and economic crash? land isn't going for anything like it was so we sold at a good time. The fact is we could easily wipe out our debt and still field a team that would keep us in the premiership. When BK took over we were only just about keeping in the premiership and selling all of our players probably still wouldn't have wiped out the debt and would have left us with no players. So how exactly are we in a worse position? it's better to have assets on the pitch as they generate money for finishing higher in the league, attract sponsorship, draw crowds and attract tv coverage etc. The better players we have the higher our profile and the bigger the draw. No one else gives a toss whether we own our own training ground. They look at the worth of our assets, all of our assets. Your model for using players as assets is flawed. We paid £5m for distin by the way. Which highlights my point perfectly. He is an intangible asset, one who once expired will have cost £5m plus wages over the time we have had him. Bily - £10m probably worth half that. Is every player coming through a youth system a premier league certainty? Good enough to fill the boots of the players who may leave at a loss or profit? Having a manager prudent enough to make smart signings is not a guarantee, and based on your model that relates back to the financial safeguarding of our club- no guarantee. Regarding the training complex you believe it was good business to sell for £7m and rent back at £1m a year over 25 years? What will the value of all those acres be worth then? If I told you that the value would be in excess of £200m would you be shocked? Regarding property crashes, just take a linear trend line and apply it over the past 25 years fluctuations and you will get the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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