Ross Barkley

[markjazzbassist]

The short-sightedness on here sometimes is astounding...

Rich coming from you matt, you complained in the match thread that there wasn't a first half sub and already wrote off koeman saying "I knew it was a one off".

[Matt]

Rich coming from you matt, you complained in the match thread that there wasn't a first half sub and already wrote off koeman saying "I knew it was a one off".

which is rich coming from you, who's opinion changes more often than the wind on pretty much every topic.

 

I'd like to know where I wrote Koeman off. Maybe in the heat of a poor game, but you'd never do anything like that, would you?

 

Edit: my one-off comment was referring to him being bold enough to make an early sub like he did with McCarthy at WBA, not writing Koeman off at all

Edited September 25, 2016 by Matt

[Mirallas]

I wonder, but ofc we're only speculating here. But if he feels anxious or not very confident, perhaps it's an idea for the manager to say; allright I'll drop you from the selection of the league games for a bit, maybe till half-season and meanwhile I'll build a team around you for the cup matches. There I guarantee you a spot in the starting line-up and you can fully focus on those. That way you cut away any uncertainty and give him a clear target to work towards. Which helps if you're uncertain or anxious.

 

Just an idea and just speculating.

Edited September 25, 2016 by Mirallas

[markjazzbassist]

which is rich coming from you, who's opinion changes more often than the wind on pretty much every topic.

 

I'd like to know where I wrote Koeman off. Maybe in the heat of a poor game, but you'd never do anything like that, would you?

 

Edit: my one-off comment was referring to him being bold enough to make an early sub like he did with McCarthy at WBA, not writing Koeman off at all

I'm open to change, that's a good thing. I'm not hard headed and just keeping an opinion for prides sake. Your last opinion in the match thread was "koeman needs to take all the blame, awful."

 

It's clear you don't like him, you said he's too forthright because he's Dutch etc. fact is he is a good manager. We have some real lack of talent and depth. I'd place more blame on that than him as its his first season. Martinez inherited a great side and then went and ruined it. Moyes inherited a crap side and built a great one. Let's give him time and back the man. He's got castoffs from 2 previous managers he's still got to get rid of and the team hardly have had time to get into the new style and game plan.

 

I'm staying positive because I really think we are building something good and won't let 2 losses turn me into a doom and gloomer.

Edited September 25, 2016 by markjazzbassist

[Matt]

I'm open to change, that's a good thing. I'm not hard headed and just keeping an opinion for prides sake. Your last opinion in the match thread was "koeman needs to take all the blame, awful."

 

It's clear you don't like him, you said he's too forthright because he's Dutch etc. fact is he is a good manager. We have some real lack of talent and depth. I'd place more blame on that than him as its his first season. Martinez inherited a great side and then went and ruined it. Moyes inherited a crap side and built a great one. Let's give him time and back the man. He's got castoffs from 2 previous managers he's still got to get rid of and the team hardly have had time to get into the new style and game plan.

 

I'm staying positive because I really think we are building something good and won't let 2 losses turn me into a doom and gloomer.

im very open to change too. Fact is that in this game, Koeman didn't react quick enough and we failed because of it. It was clear after 15mins that Barry was far from fit. So the manger played an unfit player who couldn't be carried, which had a knock on effect on the performances of at least 3 others off the top of my head. How is that not all on him? Just for the record, I was also quick to praise his reaction at WBA without getting too carried away.

 

I don't dislike him at all, I'm just not convinced by him or his approach and I've been very clear in that (his nationality is irrelevant and the implication is insulting).

[Matt]

If you think Martinez inherited a great squad that Moyes built, I don't really know how to debate with you any further on the topic.

 

I'm happy you're staying positive mate, as am I. But that doesn't mean I can't be furious with a shite performance and identify the weaknesses as I see them. I know all about change-management and how long it takes to implement a project - it's been my job for 8 years, so I'm keeping faith. Doesn't mean I have to like him.

[Shukes]

His comment on Coleman was clearly picking a name and using as an example.

 

Barkley has been poor most of the last two years with occasional brilliance.

 

Koeman watches him in training.

 

Barkley needs nurturing. He's a confidence player.

 

End of first half, Ross gets the ball, holds onto it and keeps possession and eventually lays the ball of which creates a chance.

Crowd Went crazy at him!

 

That's why most are fans and not players.

 

He needs support and playtime. Still one of our best players.

[markjazzbassist]

If you think Martinez inherited a great squad that Moyes built, I don't really know how to debate with you any further on the topic.

 

I'm happy you're staying positive mate, as am I. But that doesn't mean I can't be furious with a shite performance and identify the weaknesses as I see them. I know all about change-management and how long it takes to implement a project - it's been my job for 8 years, so I'm keeping faith. Doesn't mean I have to like him.

Howard jags Distin Coleman baines Barkley Osman Mirallas all great players in Martinez first season. None of which he bought. Barry McCarthy lukaku the 3 he got.

Edited September 25, 2016 by markjazzbassist

[nogs]

His comment on Coleman was clearly picking a name and using as an example.

 

Barkley has been poor most of the last two years with occasional brilliance.

 

Koeman watches him in training.

 

Barkley needs nurturing. He's a confidence player.

 

End of first half, Ross gets the ball, holds onto it and keeps possession and eventually lays the ball of which creates a chance.

Crowd Went crazy at him!

 

That's why most are fans and not players.

 

He needs support and playtime. Still one of our best players.

And it's that kind of bullshit from our fans which is killing him. It will end up driving him out the club.

[Matt]

Howard jags Distin Coleman baines Barkley Osman Mirallas all great players in Martinez first season. None of which he bought. Barry McCarthy lukaku the 3 he got.

hardly a great team nor were any of them performing great. Plus you forgot Geri, but all that is irrelevant. I agree with you it takes time, as I said before, so I'll leave it at that as I assume that's your point.

[JoeQuince]

Did you read the article? He wants to know why no one questions Seamus and his mistakes. Cause they were plentiful. Aka Seamus was the worst man on the pitch why not ask about him, Ross was bad but not the worst.

Dude... What?!? He was making a point about the absurdity that he's only asked about Ross (or Lukaku, or whoever is the media darling) and how it's unfair on the player. That's why he chose to talk about the team immediately afterward.

[Mirallas]

But what do you think about my idea, though?

[JoeQuince]

But what do you think about my idea, though?

I think Koeman is trying to strategically build a siege mentality around which the team can unite against a world out to tear them apart. So, rather than allow them to be atomized, he's trying to ensure that they think only of the team and not focus on their individual problems.

[markjazzbassist]

Dude... What?!? He was making a point about the absurdity that he's only asked about Ross (or Lukaku, or whoever is the media darling) and how it's unfair on the player. That's why he chose to talk about the team immediately afterward.

Yes but he didn't just pick a random player, he picked the one that performed the worst that wasn't injured. He didn't say Gana because he was Busting ass, didn't say bolasie cause he was working hard. He chose Seamus to prove his point and was also saying he wasn't great either. Otherwise he wouldn't have used a name at all.

[MikeO]

Yes but he didn't just pick a random player, he picked the one that performed the worst that wasn't injured. He didn't say Gana because he was Busting ass, didn't say bolasie cause he was working hard. He chose Seamus to prove his point and was also saying he wasn't great either. Otherwise he wouldn't have used a name at all.

 

My understanding of it was/is that he just picked a random player.

 

Think you're doing 2+2=5 on this one Mark.

[MC11]

hardly a great team nor were any of them performing great. Plus you forgot Geri, but all that is irrelevant. I agree with you it takes time, as I said before, so I'll leave it at that as I assume that's your point.

We finished 6th under Moyes. We played some great stuff. It's not worth debating with you if you can't see Martinez inherited a solid base to work from. Unfortunately he dug away at those very foundations. Which was his undoing in the end.

Edited September 25, 2016 by MC11

[markjazzbassist]

 

My understanding of it was/is that he just picked a random player.

 

Think you're doing 2+2=5 on this one Mark.

I thought it equaled 7? you could be right, we'll see on Friday I guess.

 

Back on topic, we don't have a like for like for Ross, maybe tom Davies could get a sub and see if he can link up and thread some balls to our wingers and strikers. Or put Mirallas in the middle and have Gerry out wide.

 

Just getting to the point I don't think Ross should be an auto selection anymore.

Edited September 25, 2016 by markjazzbassist

[Matt]

We finished 6th under Moyes. We played some great stuff. It's not worth debating with you if you can't see Martinez inherited a solid base to work from. Unfortunately he dug away at those very foundations. Which was his undoing in the end.

its rarely worth debating with you fullstop, thankfully I completely agree with that post so there's nothing to debate. For the record, I've been quite open with my appreciation and support of Moyes but he never left behind a great squad as was implied. Solid I'll agree with and ultimately it was dismantled Edited September 25, 2016 by Matt

[Hafnia]

Moyes has proven one thing - he's declined from his early peak with Everton.

 

Fair play.... he dined out on that like no other manager in history. He treaded water, threatened to leave - got a pay rise... treaded water then bombed out when the stakes were high. Sunderland will keep him till December I think.

[sydneyneil]

Barkley simply doesn't have the football brain required for the top level. You cannot teach a football brain. Rooney had it when he was 16 and Ross has always acted on instinct when he is at his best. The moments he has to think, he is useless. Having two feet, strong, quick, etc, only gets you so far. If you don't have it between the ears I don't believe this is something which is gained through experience.

 

Koeman, I believe, will replace him when he gets the chance. It's basic errors with him which appear consistently. This belief he is suddenly going to get some sort of mentor who is going to teach him to do the right things on the pitch is baffling. Theo Walcott has never improved this side of his game and Wenger has had him for 10 years. One of many examples of players how don't suddenly start changing their decision making.

 

I think coaches can improve qualities that players already have and give them confidence, I don't believe someone who watches them train every day can suddenly give them a football brain unfortunately.

[dlblue]

Personally i think Barkley is starting to fade, missed his opportunity and has been poor for 2 season with the occasional moment of brilliance as someone pointed out. He is good enough to play in the Prem but he isnt good enough for us to build a team around. For me most Evertonians have blinkers on with Ross, if he played for any other team or wasnt homegrown and we'd bought him then he wouldnt get the same support.

 

His 'footballing brain' has been mentioned multiple times and i agree that he doesnt seem to have what it takes. A lot of youngsters seem to be progressing much more than Barkley, Deli Ali is one of them he is influential in almost all of Spurs games whereas Barkley pops up every now and again. For me he goes missing way too much, he is too light weight on the ball for such a big lad and his final ball is often a waste. I wouldnt be surprised if this was his last season at Everton.

[Btay]

 

My understanding of it was/is that he just picked a random player.

 

Think you're doing 2+2=5 on this one Mark.

I see what your underlying message is here

 

Coleman wears number 2.

His debut game we lost 5-0

 

Or am I reading into this too much?

[MikeO]

Barkley simply doesn't have the football brain required for the top level. You cannot teach a football brain. Rooney had it when he was 16 and Ross has always acted on instinct when he is at his best. The moments he has to think, he is useless. Having two feet, strong, quick, etc, only gets you so far. If you don't have it between the ears I don't believe this is something which is gained through experience.

 

Koeman, I believe, will replace him when he gets the chance. It's basic errors with him which appear consistently. This belief he is suddenly going to get some sort of mentor who is going to teach him to do the right things on the pitch is baffling. Theo Walcott has never improved this side of his game and Wenger has had him for 10 years. One of many examples of players how don't suddenly start changing their decision making.

 

I think coaches can improve qualities that players already have and give them confidence, I don't believe someone who watches them train every day can suddenly give them a football brain unfortunately.

 

Interesting first post (Neil?). Does the "Sydney" part of your moniker make you another Oz based Blue?

[Bailey]

Ffs let's get behind the lad rather than wrote him off.

 

We know he has faults but he is one of the most talented English players currently in the game. Someone just needs to tell him to stop over thinking things and get a shot away. When he is playing well he does that naturally but when he starts to doubt himself he tries to walk the ball in.

[StevO]

The lad needs coaching, his first three years as a first team player he wasn't coached. He was allowed to do what he wanted initially, then toward the end of Martinez reign there were so many patterns of play that had to be followed. The result was him getting so much grief of the crowd that he's now scared to make a mistake and doesn't follow that instinct. The manager needs to get to work with him, the first few games this season showed a team player in Ross that I hadn't seen in him before, but that fear is still there. I don't know if the club use a psychologist or not, if they do he needs to be spending some time with him.

 

We have a lad who has unbelievable technique, some of his touches are out of this world but we take them for granted, he has good strength running with the ball which you don't see often. He has two very good feet. He has all of this going for him, but he's scared of the fans, he grew up on them seats like many of us here. That should be where his support starts, for me it's where his support ends.

[nogs]

Tok much expected of him because he's an Evertonian. We devour our own.

[sydneyneil]

 

Interesting first post (Neil?). Does the "Sydney" part of your moniker make you another Oz based Blue?

Yes mike, I'm living in Sydney these days. I do read this forum often and I thought it was about time I got involved!

 

Not a Barkley fan I'm afraid. And the "scared of the crowd" stuff doesn't wash with me either. If he doesn't have the mental strength to deal with his confidence after he plays a bad pass he will never make it as a top player. Psychologists and doctors are used these days we all know that but they can't turn a quivering wreck into a rocky balboa. I don't know any other club who aspire to be on the top 4 who would nurture a player who gives the ball away all the time in the hope that he might just deal with anxieties and stresses from the crowd. He's not a baby. We have been waiting for years now. Yes we clearly had a poor manager in that time but top players levels don't drop that much. Natural physical ability he may have but natural football ability upstairs he doesn't.

 

I hope im proved wrong obviously but we aren't talking about a ravel Morrison or mario balatelli here where we're waiting for him to grow up. Ross is supposed to be a very good professional who trains as hard as most. I think koeman went out to increase our attacking options with ghezzal, brahimi, etc. I think we will see him really try and improve this position in January

 

 

[StevO]

I don't think it's as simple as that, every team has mentally fragile players. It's how they learnt to deal with these things and how he club manage it. It's not just a case of him being scared of the crowd, it's the expectation, being scared of letting the crowd down. It's as emotive for Ross as it is for the fans in the stand. We've expected so much from him for so long, we always do with anyone who comes through. We'll see it next with Davies, look at threads all the way through this forum. A young lad makes a good impression, we expect them to start 30 games the next season. Our own expectations of our young players is never going to be reached. There are plenty of lads on here who get to Goodison every other week who hear the abuse Ross gets from the crowd, he's not been our worst player in the last five games, but when his standard dip, or he doesn't shot, or he does shoot and it doesn't go in, he gets more stick than any other player we have in that squad, and of the whole squad he's the one who takes it to heart the most. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking we should support and help our own, I have no doubt if he left he would go on to be a great player, without the emotional attachment of Everton at the front of his mind.

[sydneyneil]

Maybe that's true. I get frustrated with him more than any other player when I'm watching it on my sofa here. It's usually because he makes the wrong decision the majority of the time he gets the ball and gives it away. It's always good to have a local lad doing well who is a blue through and through but we can't keep on using emotional attachment, crowds, expectations, mental fragility forever. The crowd won't change I'm afraid and I also believe that he would have the same issues elsewhere. I disagree that he has it to become a top player. I hope I'm wrong but I think this is his season to prove me wrong and all the other doubters. If he doesn't, koeman will replace him

 

 

[JoeQuince]

Maybe that's true. I get frustrated with him more than any other player when I'm watching it on my sofa here. It's usually because he makes the wrong decision the majority of the time he gets the ball and gives it away. It's always good to have a local lad doing well who is a blue through and through but we can't keep on using emotional attachment, crowds, expectations, mental fragility forever. The crowd won't change I'm afraid and I also believe that he would have the same issues elsewhere. I disagree that he has it to become a top player. I hope I'm wrong but I think this is his season to prove me wrong and all the other doubters. If he doesn't, koeman will replace him

 

 

 

But, he doesn't give it away more than other players, especially those up front, do. His giveaways are magnified because of the expectation that, with his talent, what amazing things we've seen him do, and all that we've built him up to be, he will turn a miracle every time he touches it. And, of course he can't make miracles happen constantly (no player can), but we punish him for not being perfect. When he misses a pass that was on, holds onto the ball too long, makes a quick decision but a wrong one, or when he misses a shot, we as fans and the Goodison crowd abuse him. I think so many of us have put upon him the expectation that he's going to be Everton's savior (not to mention England's), that, when he fails to live up to that impossible standard, we vent all of our unfulfilled frustrations and place them onto him. In these moments, he functions as yet another symbol of unfulfilled promise and all that is wrong with club and country. From the US, and as someone who hasn't followed Everton from birth, this is evident in how the local and national press treat homegrown and English players and how fans internalize all of this. There's without a doubt an inferiority complex at work here, and Everton fans (and England fans) are constantly looking for answers as to why the team can't return to former glories. The press brings news of messiahs, and everybody gets their hopes up, and 16-year-old kids are shouldered with the hopes and dreams of club and country. Yet, none can live up to the standards. When times are good and the team is playing well, everybody sings the praises of that diamond, Ross Barkley. But, when the team's form drops, everybody looks to him and says "I've doubted you from the beginning, you fucking charlatan!" This is where the "you never ask about Seamus Coleman" quote from Koeman comes from. Ross Barkley isn't the panacea for all of Everton's ills and neither is he the root of the apparent disease.