Zoo Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Spot on post mate, well said. Also regarding the semi final I think that it would have been a different story if Distin hadn't of cocked up, we were pretty much in control of that game up until Suarez' goal and I think if that slip up had not of happened we would have been in the final. After they scored we shit ourselves and let them run us off the park, it's partly Moyes' fault because he is our manager but you can't pin the full blame on him when our players bottled it and Distin handed them a sleazy goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Excellent post adziom - couldn't have put it better myself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 So Moyes should be sacked because we played 3 bad games out of 38 (plus however cup matches on top). That statement is bizarre, I'm not going to even bother to create a constructive counter argument because I can't be bothered with the effort. No offence but what your talking is complete bollocks. Good day. There was other games like B'burn at home and QPR away that you can accept. I omitted them as dips in form, or should I have listed every match? Them 3 games were disgraceful and anyone at the club should be ashamed of being involved in them. I gave more reasons over the season, but them 3 games highlighted why we will not win anything or push on in the league with Moyes in charge. Like most I don't want Moyes sacked I want him to go away and learn, then come back once he's grown some balls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adziom Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Even managers like Mourinho, Guardiola, Ferguson and Wenger make mistakes and have their flaws though. If you want Moyes to get everything right all the time then you're expecting a manager, who is still relatively young, and managing an upper mid-table Premiership side to trump the elite managers in world football. He can be infuriating tactically and one dimensional, but you can't complain about his eventual end product, which is what matters at the end of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Even managers like Mourinho, Guardiola, Ferguson and Wenger make mistakes and have their flaws though. If you want Moyes to get everything right all the time then you're expecting a manager, who is still relatively young, and managing an upper mid-table Premiership side to trump the elite managers in world football. He can be infuriating tactically and one dimensional, but you can't complain about his eventual end product, which is what matters at the end of the day. In that case we might as well have Sam Alladyce for half the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adziom Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Not really, I don't really see where you're getting that from. Sam Allardyce has proven himself to be a mediocre manager at a range of football clubs, David Moyes has proven that he is far from mediocre. My point was that if Moyes was doing a better job and getting everything right like some people seem to expect him to, he'd be right up there with the world's management elite, which is a calibre of manager that only the most deluded of Everton fans could dream of attracting to our club. Tell me, who exactly could we get out there, that would actually be interested in managing a club with an aging squad, a decrepit stadium and no transfer budget, who would, not maybe, but definitely, do a better job than David Moyes has done? I don't understand these people who say "it's worth trying somebody else". If it doesn't come off, we could get relegated. It happened to Leeds and Newcastle so we're far from immune to that possibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Bilic, Adkins, and Lambert. Big Sam made Bolton a consistent top half team, but he stagnated. Bolton changed it up and were eventually relegated because of it (injuries played a big art as well), but I'd rather take the Bolton approach and risk it than except mediocre. The worst thing is were not mediocre Moyes shackles restrict us to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalziel Kane Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Looks like we're damned if we do and damned if we don't. It's either accept what we have, what we do, and where we find ourselves each season, which on the face of it, isn't much at all and remain with Moyes' Intrasigent, stale, tentative approach or risk a new name and see where it takes us, OK, we may not duplicate a 6th or 7th place finish, but I'm not buying into the fact the club would be relegated because of it. Hell, there could even be some attacking emphasis or going out to win, you never know, something that Moyes is incapable of, all too often. It's all rather simple, Moyes stays as manager next season, a few highlights that are few and far between, one or two standout results, a rather all said boring and mundane season again, a top ten finish, trying for a UEFA berth and miss out yet again on an actual bonafide trophy. Some people may be content with that, OK we don't have the finances to compete with the plastics up there or other heavyweight teams, but I'd like to see a club manager who can motivate and knows how to get a result, let's show some attacking intent etc. This club has gone 17 years now without a goddamn trophy, it won't change with Mr Moyes in charge! It's merely banging heads against proverbial fucking walls but that's merely how I see it. I know others share similar sentiments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adziom Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 Bilic, Adkins, and Lambert. Big Sam made Bolton a consistent top half team, but he stagnated. Bolton changed it up and were eventually relegated because of it (injuries played a big art as well), but I'd rather take the Bolton approach and risk it than except mediocre. The worst thing is were not mediocre Moyes shackles restrict us to that. But Big Sam also failed to deliver anything above mediocrity at Blackburn and Newcastle.... I can't believe anyone would put the club's long term future at risk, risk us doing a Leeds/Portsmouth/Notts Forest, just because consistent top half finishes and overachievement, with occasional European qualification, on little to no budget is so unbearably "mediocre". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 But Big Sam also failed to deliver anything above mediocrity at Blackburn and Newcastle.... I can't believe anyone would put the club's long term future at risk, risk us doing a Leeds/Portsmouth/Notts Forest, just because consistent top half finishes and overachievement, with occasional European qualification, on little to no budget is so unbearably "mediocre". Once you accept mediocrity, where do we go from there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blueboy122 Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) The problem is with this thread Moyes bashers have no argument. IF MOYES LEFT THE CLUB IT WOULD BE IN DISSARY, MARK MY WORDS, WOULD THE PLAYERS STILL WANT TO REMAIN HERE WITHOUT MOYES, WHO WOULD COME TO A TICKING FINANCIAL TIME BOMB TO REPLACE MOYES. IT WOULD BE DARK DAYS IF MOYES WERE TO LEAVE EVERTON AT THIS POINT IN EVERTONS HISTORY. Do people honestly really believe that Lmabert Rodgers etc could have done a better job than Moyes this season, 7th place without spending, semi final of the fa cup. O please... Edited May 15, 2012 by blueboy122 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 15, 2012 Report Share Posted May 15, 2012 The problem is with this thread Moyes bashers have no argument. IF MOYES LEFT THE CLUB IT WOULD BE IN DISSARY, MARK MY WORDS, WOULD THE PLAYERS STILL WANT TO REMAIN HERE WITHOUT MOYES, WHO WOULD COME TO A TICKING FINANCIAL TIME BOMB TO REPLACE MOYES. IT WOULD BE DARK DAYS IF MOYES WERE TO LEAVE EVERTON AT THIS POINT IN EVERTONS HISTORY. Do people honestly really believe that Lmabert Rodgers etc could have done a better job than Moyes this season, 7th place without spending, semi final of the fa cup. O please... Reread the thread I'm sure you will find some arguments against. I believe all those managers would have beat Liverpool in the semi-final given our squad. "There is a real magic in enthusiasm. It spells the difference between mediocrity and accomplishment." Every single Evertonian to David Moyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest blueboy122 Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Reread the thread I'm sure you will find some arguments against. I believe all those managers would have beat Liverpool in the semi-final given our squad. "There is a real magic in enthusiasm. It spells the difference between mediocrity and accomplishment." Every single Evertonian to David Moyes. Our players bottled it mate it wasnt Moyes. It was the biggest bottle job I have ever witnessed infact and Moyes could have done nothing to prevent it that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adziom Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Once you accept mediocrity, where do we go from there? Keeping Moyes isn't "accepting mediocrity". If we get rid of Moyes for some unproven one season wonder, there's about a 10% chance that he'll do better, win us a Carling Cup or finish 6th instead of 7th, but about a 90% chance we'll do worse, and perhaps even end up in a relegation scrap. Moyes isn't the thing that's stalling progress at the club, it's the lack of investment. Moyes proved (again) this January that with money to spend, he can take us forward. Unfortunately though, he doesn't always have money to spend. Until a world class manager, capable of waving a magic wand over the football club and suddenly delivering Champions League football and silverware every year without having any significant money to spend, A) Comes out of nowhere and For some reason is interested in managing Everton, any talk of getting rid of him is simply ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Our players bottled it mate it wasnt Moyes. It was the biggest bottle job I have ever witnessed infact and Moyes could have done nothing to prevent it that day. I struggle to see how anyone can believe Moyes werent to blame. He thought one nil would be alright to sit back on. Constantly lowering expectation he should be saying he want to win every week. Keeping Moyes isn't "accepting mediocrity". If we get rid of Moyes for some unproven one season wonder, there's about a 10% chance that he'll do better, win us a Carling Cup or finish 6th instead of 7th, but about a 90% chance we'll do worse, and perhaps even end up in a relegation scrap. Moyes isn't the thing that's stalling progress at the club, it's the lack of investment. Moyes proved (again) this January that with money to spend, he can take us forward. Unfortunately though, he doesn't always have money to spend. Until a world class manager, capable of waving a magic wand over the football club and suddenly delivering Champions League football and silverware every year without having any significant money to spend, A) Comes out of nowhere and For some reason is interested in managing Everton, any talk of getting rid of him is simply ridiculous. Nothing to do with spending money in Jan, the last 3 seasons we weren't getting results in the 1st half of the season. The reason being Moyes' negativity, once we get safe Moyes flies, he should just trust his players to do it from the start. Even without spending 3 home wins is pathetic, our reserves were good enough to get better results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Once you accept mediocrity, where do we go from there? you say we are accepting mediocrity with moyes yet you are mentioning allardyce in the same breath? also if we got lambert we'd go back to the big dunc days..no thank you as for the semi final i do blame that on moyes...he sat back when liverpool were there for the taking and we were far from in control of that game before distin's mistake...they were always gonna score we just helped them along Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue 250 Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 I struggle to see how anyone can believe Moyes werent to blame. He thought one nil would be alright to sit back on. How do you KNOW what Moyes thought? The players were the ones on the pitch, they didn't have to sit back, they didn't have to stop pushing for a second goal, they didn't have to make a suicidal back pass.They (the players) were responsible for their own actions.The goal we scored forced liverpool to push more, to attack us rather then probe us.We didn't handle it, the PLAYERS bottled it. Some of the football first half against Newcastle was excellent, that was down to the players, they wanted it, they did it.....NO credit to Moyes(other than the fact he picked the team)....so when they were poor second half to liverpool, how was that Moyes' fault? A Moyes should go thread!..........I'm betting the punters pushing for this, would be the first ones to bleat when/if it we wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 Adz, great post again lad. Oh, and anyone linking Fat Sam with us will be in trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 How do you KNOW what Moyes thought? The players were the ones on the pitch, they didn't have to sit back, they didn't have to stop pushing for a second goal, they didn't have to make a suicidal back pass.They (the players) were responsible for their own actions.The goal we scored forced liverpool to push more, to attack us rather then probe us.We didn't handle it, the PLAYERS bottled it. Some of the football first half against Newcastle was excellent, that was down to the players, they wanted it, they did it.....NO credit to Moyes(other than the fact he picked the team)....so when they were poor second half to liverpool, how was that Moyes' fault? A Moyes should go thread!..........I'm betting the punters pushing for this, would be the first ones to bleat when/if it we wrong! The same reason that nobody actually knows what kinda of job another manager would do at the club, all these people saying that Moyes is the messiah and noone else can do the job need a serious reality check, as i have said many many times before, HE IS NOT THE ONLY MANAGER IN WORLD FOOTBALL TO WORK WITH LIMITED FINANCES, we have no idea what another manager would do/or would have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 i'm not sure anyone has quite said he's the messiah? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 i'm not sure anyone has quite said he's the messiah? Plenty of people on here and other forums seem to think he can do no wrong and is the only manager capable of running the club, which any half educated football fan knows is nonsense. There are 100's of managers in the various leagues in Europe, Moyes has done a very good job with what he's had, but no one can say that another person would'nt have done the same/better/worse. unless they are Mystic Meg of course Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 true..but is it worth the gamble of gettin someone else in who doesn't know the club or the players and possibly ending up like villa? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 i'm not sure anyone has quite said he's the messiah? to be fair he has gained a nickname based on that word. Pris - youre absolutely right, there are other managers who work with a tiny/non-existant budget, but none of them have finished higher than Everton in the last 5 years or even come close that I can think of. One of the things with Moyes that i think is undervalued is his relationship with the chairman (I know this is going to make people laugh / upset people). That kind of relationship, the stable, happy relationship they have at the top sets the standards for the rest, it can be seen in the relationships between players and staff. Its basic psychology in my opinion. This has gone on to creating a special team spirit which is clear as day. Im not going to say other teams dont have the same kind of feeling and that another manager couldnt do that but the point is, Moyes has done that and hes built it over 10 years. To get rid of him will not tip the boat - it will rip the hull out from under it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 to be fair he has gained a nickname based on that word. Pris - youre absolutely right, there are other managers who work with a tiny/non-existant budget, but none of them have finished higher than Everton in the last 5 years or even come close that I can think of. One of the things with Moyes that i think is undervalued is his relationship with the chairman (I know this is going to make people laugh / upset people). That kind of relationship, the stable, happy relationship they have at the top sets the standards for the rest, it can be seen in the relationships between players and staff. Its basic psychology in my opinion. This has gone on to creating a special team spirit which is clear as day. Im not going to say other teams dont have the same kind of feeling and that another manager couldnt do that but the point is, Moyes has done that and hes built it over 10 years. To get rid of him will not tip the boat - it will rip the hull out from under it. where is the thumbs up smiley? also i've said before and will say it again..we need an attack minded coach to get in moyes' ear to stop the negativity he seems to have in some games..i do hope moyes takes note of the football he has got the team playing lately and builds on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 true..but is it worth the gamble of gettin someone else in who doesn't know the club or the players and possibly ending up like villa? No, at the moment it's not worth the gamble i don't think, stick with him for the moment, better the devil you know at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 you say we are accepting mediocrity with moyes yet you are mentioning allardyce in the same breath? also if we got lambert we'd go back to the big dunc days..no thank you as for the semi final i do blame that on moyes...he sat back when liverpool were there for the taking and we were far from in control of that game before distin's mistake...they were always gonna score we just helped them along I didnt put Sam Alladyce forward, in Adz post describing Moyes, and I said we could get Alladyce to do the exact same job of top hald and one dimensional tactics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 I didnt put Sam Alladyce forward, in Adz post describing Moyes, and I said we could get Alladyce to do the exact same job of top hald and one dimensional tactics. difference being i would be arrested for mass murder if Allardyce was in charge... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mogsy Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 i'm not sure anyone has quite said he's the messiah? He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 He's not the messiah, he's a very stubborn boy! Fixed it ^^ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted May 16, 2012 Report Share Posted May 16, 2012 I do love these debates because it amuses me how so many people forget how truly shite we were for the first half of the season. Look at the teams above us & assess how much better they really are than the squad we have. Man Utd - just about, Man City - Yes, Arsenal - Nope (bar RVP), Spurs - Yes, Chelsea - Not this year, Newcastle - Similar. We have finished this season really well BUT we have yet again missed the boat and we wont get a better chance of finishing in the CL places since the last time we did it! We can bitch about lack of finances etc, but the fact of the matter is we have missed out on millions PURELY because of how insignificant we see ourselves. If your happy with this squad finishing 7th given how average a lot of the teams around us are, then no doubt you are happy with Moyes & Kenwright running the ship. If you look at this squad and how this season has evolved and think we should have done better, then I think people have the right to raise questions at the manager. What happens if next season we do the same crap all over again (start crap & finish well)? Do we keep doing that until one year we dont get better in the new year? I want Moyes here BUT he has to realise himself that WE ARE BETTER than he thinks. He needs to trust his players to get on with WINNING GAMES like he has been since the pressure has come off in the last few weeks. He is what keeps us ticking, but he is also what holds us back. We cant just show up for the big games and then throw away the small games through lack of effort or organisation. Yet again he has shown us what he is capable of doing with this club, but I wont be holding my breath that we carry it on to next year, because history has told me otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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