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9 minutes ago, nogs said:

But why wouldn't you want heads to roll for cocking things up as badly as they've been cocked up this past 12 months? Nil satis nisi optimum and all that. 

One disappointing season doesn't mean you need to completely clean house - not in American sports like football, hockey, baseball - also in the business world...

We gave Martinez a third season after his second season was worse than this one (11th place, 47 points).

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15 minutes ago, Quinn31 said:

One disappointing season doesn't mean you need to completely clean house - not in American sports like football, hockey, baseball - also in the business world...

We gave Martinez a third season after his second season was worse than this one (11th place, 47 points).

True, but he also didn't have the transfer outlay that Koeman/Walsh received from Moshiri (also not here during the Martinez reign). I'm sure he would have gotten the sack if things would've have gone as poorly for him that season as it has this season.

As soon as Moshiri came in Martinez was out.

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2 minutes ago, tonkaroost said:

True, but he also didn't have the transfer outlay that Koeman/Walsh received from Moshiri (also not here during the Martinez reign). I'm sure he would have gotten the sack if things would've have gone as poorly for him that season as it has this season.

As soon as Moshiri came in Martinez was out.

Because Relegation Roberto's third season matched his second - 47 points, 11th place. 

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1 minute ago, Quinn31 said:

Because Relegation Roberto's third season matched his second - 47 points, 11th place. 

Yes... true, and that was the right choice, but that is also not really my point.

My point is that the circumstances for Roberto getting a third season after a below-par second season are different than the ones this season, so the same expectation can't really be held in my opinion, but that's just my opinion. We spent a shitload of cash on players who haven't performed and played the most mind-numbing football I've ever seen Everton play. We also employed the most arrogant of managers.

We were very lucky to get eighth.

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10 minutes ago, tonkaroost said:

Yes... true, and that was the right choice, but that is also not really my point.

My point is that the circumstances for Roberto getting a third season after a below-par second season are different than the ones this season, so the same expectation can't really be held in my opinion, but that's just my opinion. We spent a shitload of cash on players who haven't performed and played the most mind-numbing football I've ever seen Everton play. We also employed the most arrogant of managers.

We were very lucky to get eighth.

The impression I had under Martinez was that we were unlucky not to get a lot more points (ie stupid mistakes / late goals) whereas I often wonder how on earth we won any points this season!

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4 minutes ago, Newty82 said:

Ai, I thought you would be but it didn't come across that way. Hence I asked to find out.

Sometimes a house needs new furniture, a new paint job, plumbing work done, etc.

There's a certain segment of fans that want to demolish the house every time it has a leaky faucet - social media just amplifies angry voices. Not too indifferent from Trump, Brexit (No offense to the Leave voters here)

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36 minutes ago, Quinn31 said:

One disappointing season doesn't mean you need to completely clean house - not in American sports like football, hockey, baseball - also in the business world...

We gave Martinez a third season after his second season was worse than this one (11th place, 47 points).

I think it's an accumulation of things rather than just one bad season.

A main factor, possibly and only in my opinion, is that Moshiri has come in under Kenwrights lovey dovey nicey nice words and played along with it. Listened to certain people and tried to take on various inputs. It hasn't worked so he's basically said 'fuck this, I'm doing it more my way' and is starting to out more of his own people in higher positions. Possibly!!!

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1 minute ago, Quinn31 said:

Sometimes a house needs new furniture, a new paint job, plumbing work done, etc.

There's a certain segment of fans that want to demolish the house every time it has a leaky faucet - social media just amplifies angry voices. Not too indifferent from Trump, Brexit (No offense to the Leave voters here)

Yep, and you'll have them at every club and in every walk of life. These people are not unique to Everton.

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2 hours ago, Quinn31 said:

The mob has gotten their scalps now. It will temporarily hold them over until they start to bitch about not signing a ton of players this summer

99.9% of the fanbase doesn't equal a mob. In more than fifty years supporting the club I've never seen the fans more unified on anything; sure there are factions at times (Kendall, Kenwright, Johnson, Martinez, Moyes, Walker etc etc "out") and some of them have been big factions but there have always been dissenting voices, this was as good as unanimous. Your premise doesn't stand up.

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5 minutes ago, MikeO said:

99.9% of the fanbase doesn't equal a mob. In more than fifty years supporting the club I've never seen the fans more unified on anything; sure there are factions at times (Kendall, Kenwright, Johnson, Martinez, Moyes, Walker etc etc "out") and some of them have been big factions but there have always been dissenting voices, this was as good as unanimous. Your premise doesn't stand up.

On Allardyce, certainly. 

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3 hours ago, Quinn31 said:

One disappointing season doesn't mean you need to completely clean house - not in American sports like football, hockey, baseball - also in the business world...

We gave Martinez a third season after his second season was worse than this one (11th place, 47 points).

Still not sure I get your point. You agree Allardyce had to go, are you saying Walsh should have kept his job? Because I see our recruitment under him as having been dreadful the whole two years he's been here, not just one season. Are you pissed off Elstone has gone? Do you think Shakespeare and Lee should keep their jobs? Are you calling for all current members of the first team squad to be offered contract extensions? 

The club has drifted badly in the wrong direction in the last 12 months. I for one am very pleased to see some decisive action to try to put that right. 

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19 minutes ago, nogs said:

Still not sure I get your point. You agree Allardyce had to go, are you saying Walsh should have kept his job? Because I see our recruitment under him as having been dreadful the whole two years he's been here, not just one season. Are you pissed off Elstone has gone? Do you think Shakespeare and Lee should keep their jobs? Are you calling for all current members of the first team squad to be offered contract extensions? 

The club has drifted badly in the wrong direction in the last 12 months. I for one am very pleased to see some decisive action to try to put that right. 

Sam Allardyce - over the moon he's gone

Contract extensions - no, I must've missed the news article where that's a rumor. Do you want  that or something?

Lee and Shakespeare of course go with Allardyce

Walsh - not sure

Elstone - think he's served us well and a change might be welcome, not sure about Barrett-Baxendale. Not so much displeased with the Board and Executive changes, but rather confused as to why everyone is getting excited about them.

Keith Harris - Been around the commercial side of the game for awhile, definite business acumen but was involved in some shitty sales I believe - M&A guys/investment bankers are almost always out for themselves above all else.

New CFO - don't know enough about him

The club has drifted badly on the pitch in the last 12 months, but I think quite a lot has gone in the right direction off the pitch in relation to the stadium project and other commercial agreements. See my earlier comments about things sometimes needing a tweaking rather than a complete facelift. 

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I sort of get what you mean Quinn. I don’t think the playing squad needs a massive overhaul, but I do think the boardroom needed change. 

Personally, I think Elstone had too much of a small time mentality. He wanted to better recent years, rather than better our competitors. 

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2 hours ago, StevO said:

I sort of get what you mean Quinn. I don’t think the playing squad needs a massive overhaul, but I do think the boardroom needed change. 

Personally, I think Elstone had too much of a small time mentality. He wanted to better recent years, rather than better our competitors. 

Fair point - agreed. I feel like we have 7 or 8 players that need to be moved or on who need to be replaced by 4 or 5 real difference makers when it comes to the playing staff. As I said, a top drawer centerback, a clear successor to Baines, a striker with more pace than Tosun but also who has goals in them,  and it would be nice to see someone in central midfield with ball playing ability who is also a pacey and physical presence (Doucoure?).

Again, I'm not attacking this forum - this forum relative to other Everton forums has top drawer posts and people who are genuinely interested in learning/teaching as much about the game as possible , to which I've been a huge beneficiary. I just think there's a "Burn it all down" segment out there (check twitter) that can be quite vocal and could harm the club they love

Just some food for thought - it's easy to judge players and the manager. We all know football some and can sufficiently judge the performance of those positions. It's much harder to judge executive roles, whether it be DoF or the more commercially oriented positions. While Walsh certainly hasn't played his cards super well given how woefully unbalanced the squad was at the beginning of the year lacking 1) pace 2) clear cover at fullback 3) two capable centerbacks to serve as a pair 4) a replacement goalscorer for Lukaku - I also see the clear lack of clarity on who was a Walsh signing vs Koeman and what their responsibilities were... Martina and Klaassen scream Koeman signings while Rooney screams as a board level signing - 

Walsh can clearly be accountable for 1) not being able to sign a #9 in the window (though we just needed Giroud to have a better spouse) 2) Needing to sign the RIGHT centerback and then signing Keane, who on his best days has been mediocre and appears physically incapable of being a defender in an expansive team and 3) paying an insane fee for Sigurdsson, though you could argue we got our man and a quality player, just not at the right price (Just as you could argue Sandro was worth a punt at $5m). I don't know if Walsh is grossly incompetent as a DoF and meant to stay a scout, or if he just didn't get it right this time and work well with Koeman - unlike managers, who need to maintain the confidence of the players, scouts and DoF's ability to recruit talent/have an eye for a player should remain more stagnant where as a manager's relevance more or less come and goes, and is dependent on their relationship with their players as well as the modernity of their training methods and tactics. That's why I'm not 100% Walsh out - he didn't get it right this time, but I'm not entirely sure that he's a waste of space and wouldn't be capable of doing a better job going forward. 

I understand having high standards (NSNO), but we should all be cognizant of the deck being stacked against us financially relative to the "Big 6" (Spurs, City, and Chelsea dwarf us financially, what a fucking joke) - I just don't want us to be getting in another vicious cycle of getting super excited by heads rolling/changing of the guard/new faces and then being disappointed because results aren't immediately as good as they were in the 80's. I'm cautiously optimistic regarding the stadium and all the new changes, and I'm anxiously awaiting the managerial appointment. I think more faces need to leave than need to come in this summer with the squad, we're bloated in terms of numbers, so let's build back up slowly but correctly rather than bringing in loads of players without a clear plan for them. 

As for Mr. Moshiri, Koeman and Walsh were good appointments on paper, they just lacked a plan/structure/didn't end up as good as advertised - Moshiri has put his money where his mouth is repeatedly and now has acted swiftly and decisively to try and improve his project. You can criticize the outcome, but the will and effort has been there.

While we are miles off the top 4,  I think with the right manager and the right signings this summer, and with some luck with injuries, we could very well be back around the 60 point mark (Maybe a bit above it) and take it to the big 6 in some matches in that Cavalier manner we love our blues for. Remember, Koeman signed Ashley Williams, Gueye, Bolasie, Stek, and Schneiderlin (in January), as well as young players DCL and Lookman (January), but was able to take a squad that finished on 47 points and in 11th the prior two seasons up to 61 points and 7th place - the complete lack of individual and team defending that killed us for a few years was rectified, as I believe a few good signings and the right man could restore some footballing identity to us now. We're never as good as we think we are, and it's never as bad as we think. 

This restoration of status would refill me with the pride that I have from being an Evertonian, and make me recognize the club I know - from there, we build. Onwards and Upwards.

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I think maybe with Walsh it was a case of a better option became available who we felt we couldn't miss out on.

Brands is a proven DoF with a good record and reputation.

The other internal changes came from Elstone going back to rugby. Then we promoted from within. A void was there to be filled.

Moshiri is trying to get us to the next level. And needs the right people in place to make that happen. Time will tell if it works.

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so we now have no manager and the DoF has left to go back to super league.  My head is spinning, so in simple terms we are better off with no manager and a new DoF?  (Doing Mike's job again.) 

Anyway we are now a sacking club, and we play in blue.  We are Chelsea .......

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I think it’s more we are a decisive club. 

The football as anti spectator, in a spectator sport. Sam was brought in as a stop gap, he was even given a very short contract to start with. He did his job, and now we’re taking the next step in our long term plan. It was always going to be this way... we were all talking about it the minute Sam was taken on. 

Life is short and fans only have a limited watching time for the club they love. Another season of anti football would mean so many fellow Evertonians would leave this world with that as their last memory.

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9 hours ago, Quinn31 said:

Sam Allardyce - over the moon he's gone

Contract extensions - no, I must've missed the news article where that's a rumor. Do you want  that or something?

Lee and Shakespeare of course go with Allardyce

Walsh - not sure

Elstone - think he's served us well and a change might be welcome, not sure about Barrett-Baxendale. Not so much displeased with the Board and Executive changes, but rather confused as to why everyone is getting excited about them.

Keith Harris - Been around the commercial side of the game for awhile, definite business acumen but was involved in some shitty sales I believe - M&A guys/investment bankers are almost always out for themselves above all else.

New CFO - don't know enough about him

The club has drifted badly on the pitch in the last 12 months, but I think quite a lot has gone in the right direction off the pitch in relation to the stadium project and other commercial agreements. See my earlier comments about things sometimes needing a tweaking rather than a complete facelift. 

Well, I'd say the changes we've seen so far this weak constitute more than a tweak. And I've made my feelings about the squad clear on the transfer thread. We need a lot more than a tweak there if we are to see noticeable improvement next season. 

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19 minutes ago, MikeO said:

Beautiful that, thanks Mark.

 

1 minute ago, Newty82 said:

Great read. Touching.

When it’s a massive article like that I’d normally just skim read after I’d read the first couple of paragraphs, but I just wanted to keep reading. You get the full grasp of what a good man he was, how much he meant to her and what Everton meant to him. 

I only wish I could’ve seen him play for myself because he sounds like a great player. 

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