Longest Thread! for Everton Discussion

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-fc-fans-hurting-decline-9496277

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Great piece this

 

http://toffeetv.net/losing-the-faith/

[Paddock]

Great piece this

 

http://toffeetv.net/losing-the-faith/

Read that earlier, it's good isn't it.

[Romey 1878]

Great piece this

 

http://toffeetv.net/losing-the-faith/

It is. Cheers for posting it.

[Cornish Steve]

Great piece this

 

http://toffeetv.net/losing-the-faith/

 

Not so impressed. Unduly negative piece.

 

First of all, it's not the case that there's no hope of replacing aging players with good alternatives. Just look at the names we're associated with right now. They are exciting names, not the dross I saw us linked with this time last year.

 

Second, there's no mention of the young spine we're building for the team. Players like Stones, McCarthy, Barkley, and Lukaku could be playing for Everton for a decade. Add to them Robles, Deulofeu (hopefully), Galloway, Garbutt, Besic, and Henin (hopefully). This could be a team to reckon with for several years.

 

Third, there's no doubt that we're living in a different footballing world today, with megamillionaires buying teams like others buy chocolate bars. It's sad, but so be it. Does that mean such teams always win? Not at all! I'd choose a stable, young team any day over a bunch of whining prima donnas.

 

Fourth, Brits always root for the underdog. For sure, I do. Underneath it all, we just don't like to see big money buying first place. We follow teams that go about things the right way, that earn their way to victory. Football is about winning, but it's not about winning at any price.

 

Fifth, it's rather unwise to draw conclusions from one or two seasons. Admittedly, the writer looks back at prior regimes, but he still believes 2-1/2 years (one of them being our best ever finish in the Prem) is long enough to determine whether a manager can cut it. Just look at Arsenal. Wenger has been in charge for many years, and they consistently finish in the top four. Other teams fire managers and struggle, because you can't build a new strategy and way of playing overnight, with players who struggle to adapt.

 

Personally, I'm much more optimistic than the writer of that article. Let's see who's right at the end of the coming season.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Cornish Steve

[Lowensda]

I read it and felt myself believing I'd written it (up to the point of him talking about his kid.).

 

I feel VERY similar. And its frightening.

 

The sport is for the wealthy families, who see football as a weekly theatre visit, with little participation to atmosphere or club dealings. Those who have ST's are berated by stewards for standing, shouting and in some cases, celebrating. Its all just a little dull for my liking and the pricing is alienating the true fans who just can't afford it.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

Not so impressed. Unduly negative piece.

 

First of all, it's not the case that there's no hope of replacing aging players with good alternatives. Just look at the names we're associated with right now. They are exciting names, not the dross I saw us linked with this time last year.

 

Second, there's no mention of the young spine we're building for the team. Players like Stones, McCarthy, Barkley, and Lukaku could be playing for Everton for a decade. Add to them Robles, Deulofeu (hopefully), Galloway, Garbutt, Besic, and Henin (hopefully). This could be a team to reckon with for several years.

 

Third, there's no doubt that we're living in a different footballing world today, with megamillionaires buying teams like others buy chocolate bars. It's sad, but so be it. Does that mean such teams always win? Not at all! I'd choose a stable, young team any day over a bunch of whining prima donnas.

 

Fourth, Brits always root for the underdog. For sure, I do. Underneath it all, we just don't like to see big money buying first place. We follow teams that go about things the right way, that earn their way to victory. Football is about winning, but it's not about winning at any price.

 

Fifth, it's rather unwise to draw conclusions from one or two seasons. Admittedly, the writer looks back at prior regimes, but he still believes 2-1/2 years (one of them being our best ever finish in the Prem) is long enough to determine whether a manager can cut it. Just look at Arsenal. Wenger has been in charge for many years, and they consistently finish in the top four. Other teams fire managers and struggle, because you can't build a new strategy and way of playing overnight, with players who struggle to adapt.

 

Personally, I'm much more optimistic than the writer of that article. Let's see who's right at the end of the coming season.

I don't think it is unduly negative, in fact I think he got it spot on

His apathy towards this Everton team and the dross served up last season resonates with me perfectly

 

I sit smack bang in the middle of the so called singing area in the Gwladys Street and everyone seems bored stiff

Most games me and my mates have been goring down for our half time pint by 1530

 

I know a lot of people who have been thinking exactly the way this guy says ie going the game more through force of habit than actually expecting to be entertained or hoping to win

[Paddock]

I don't think it is unduly negative, in fact I think he got it spot on

His apathy towards this Everton team and the dross served up last season resonates with me perfectly

 

I sit smack bang in the middle of the so called singing area in the Gwladys Street and everyone seems bored stiff

Most games me and my mates have been goring down for our half time pint by 1530

 

I know a lot of people who have been thinking exactly the way this guy says ie going the game more through force of habit than actually expecting to be entertained or hoping to win

Pretty much how I see it. I've mentioned it a couple of times now but even my 8 year old is complaining he's bored. That really isn't a good sign.

 

He keeps saying "Dad we play boring football don't we" .

 

You should never be bored at the match when you're 8.

[markjazzbassist]

The goal is to win not to look good or provide entertainment for 8 year olds. If he doesn't like it don't go to the game or watch. Otherwise it's just useless bitching. This is the manager the board picked and this is his style. He's not going to change for a couple fans and a newspaper writer. Laughable.

[Romey 1878]

The goal is to win not to look good or provide entertainment for 8 year olds. If he doesn't like it don't go to the game or watch. Otherwise it's just useless bitching. This is the manager the board picked and this is his style. He's not going to change for a couple fans and a newspaper writer. Laughable.

 

The thing is though, if you don't entertain people will stop going and the club loses money that way. Or people only turn up out of habit, are bored shitless, the atmosphere gets worse.

 

Winning is obviously the main goal, but a lack of entertainment is a problem. For the money fans have to pay to go and watch I don't think it's unfair to expect to be entertained. I paid over £500 for my season ticket, fans in the Park End will have paid more than that. Fans fork out £30-£50 (maybe more) for a match day ticket. Factor in travel expenses and buying food in the ground and it's a lot of money. Then you have the fans that pay for an away ticket which are often even more than a home ticket, plus paying for travel. It all mounts up, so to be so dismissive like you were is what is truly laughable.

 

Edit - plus, young fans are the club's future. You need to grab them, not put them off.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Romey 1878

[Paddock]

The goal is to win not to look good or provide entertainment for 8 year olds. If he doesn't like it don't go to the game or watch. Otherwise it's just useless bitching. This is the manager the board picked and this is his style. He's not going to change for a couple fans and a newspaper writer. Laughable.

Are you messing with that post?

 

The point of it was, at 8 the match is magical, it's an experience , exciting, fun, awe inspiring. The fact that at such a young age he is noticing how utterly dire the football being served up is is not a good sign.

 

This is a boy who eats breaths and sleeps football, he watches any type (except womens) I came in the other month and he was watching Wolves vs Stoke from the 70s on the big match revisited. He's not bored watching that but he is watching Everton. That's a bad sign.

 

Of course it's about winning and of course he isn't going to change the style for one 8 year old, anyone who would think otherwise would be an idiot but he is the next generation of Everton fan what happens if they stop going? The club ceased to exist. and he didn't see much winning last season and for the most part was bored to tears sitting inside Goodison.

 

What you wrote is laughable. Quite frankly Mark, you don't have a fucking clue really do you.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Paddock

[johnh]

The goal is to win not to look good or provide entertainment for 8 year olds. If he doesn't like it don't go to the game or watch. Otherwise it's just useless bitching. This is the manager the board picked and this is his style. He's not going to change for a couple fans and a newspaper writer. Laughable.

 

The view that 'the ends justify the means' is fine if it is the only way to achieve relative success but what if it doesn't achieve relative success? ie playing boring football to achieve a mid-table position. We would be better playing attractive football even if the end result was mid-table. Drawing 3 - 3 instead of 0 - 0.

[Paddock]

 

The thing is though, if you don't entertain people will stop going and the club loses money that way. Or people only turn up out of habit, are bored shitless, the atmosphere gets worse.

 

Winning is obviously the main goal, but a lack of entertainment is a problem. For the money fans have to pay to go and watch I don't think it's unfair to expect to be entertained. I paid over £500 for my season ticket, fans in the Park End will have paid more than that. Fans fork out £30-£50 (maybe more) for a match day ticket. Factor in travel expenses and buying food in the ground and it's a lot of money. Then you have the fans that pay for an away ticket which are often even more than a home ticket, plus paying for travel. It all mounts up, so to be so dismissive like you were is what is truly laughable.

 

Edit - plus, young fans are the club's future. You need to grab them, not put them off.

Precisely.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Paddock

[Cornish Steve]

 

The thing is though, if you don't entertain people will stop going and the club loses money that way.

 

Blackpool should have been in the money then. For some odd reason, they're now in League 1.

 

It's a balance, right? Obviously, teams want to win (and personally I'd prefer doing that without buying our way there). Obviously, fans want to win in an entertaining manner. Let me ask you: Would you enjoy yourself more as a fan when finishing in the top four by playing a dour style or finishing 16th by playing bold, aggressive football?

[Paddock]

 

Blackpool should have been in the money then. For some odd reason, they're now in League 1.

 

It's a balance, right? Obviously, teams want to win (and personally I'd prefer doing that without buying our way there). Obviously, fans want to win in an entertaining manner. Let me ask you: Would you enjoy yourself more as a fan when finishing in the top four by playing a dour style or finishing 16th by playing bold, aggressive football?

It was neither last season though Steve was it so there is no comparison. We were utterly dire and finished 12th .

[Romey 1878]

 

Blackpool should have been in the money then. For some odd reason, they're now in League 1.

 

It's a balance, right? Obviously, teams want to win (and personally I'd prefer doing that without buying our way there). Obviously, fans want to win in an entertaining manner. Let me ask you: Would you enjoy yourself more as a fan when finishing in the top four by playing a dour style or finishing 16th by playing bold, aggressive football?

I didn't say it applied to me. Only a lack of money will stop me getting a season ticket. But I can understand people's frustration after last season because I was bored shitless more often than not. There weren't many times I can recall being on the edge of my seat.

 

While Moyes was here we played a lot of dour football, with some excellent stuff drizzled in there, and we finished 4th once. I loved it. Martinez' first season showed you can entertain and finish high up the league. Last season was shit for entertainment and we finished nowhere in the league. So what's your point?

 

And Blackpool stopped playing decent football quite a while ago now.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Romey 1878

[markjazzbassist]

 

Blackpool should have been in the money then. For some odd reason, they're now in League 1.

 

It's a balance, right? Obviously, teams want to win (and personally I'd prefer doing that without buying our way there). Obviously, fans want to win in an entertaining manner. Let me ask you: Would you enjoy yourself more as a fan when finishing in the top four by playing a dour style or finishing 16th by playing bold, aggressive football?

 

exactly. i wasn't messing pad. if we played hoofball and won the league and cups and champs league do you think anyone would be canceling tickets? hell no. they'd be in more demand. winning is all that matters. now how you get to winning by playing a style, there's an argument there for sure. but to think that style is the most important thing is laughable. if we played beautiful football but were relegated all the way to the conference not many would show up.

 

winning matters. look at our style now, you all hate it, yet ticket sales were up over last year, why? we got 5th and made europa so people bought tickets cause we were winning. if the sales are down for this next year? not due to style, due to being 12th and not winning.

 

pad you are the perfect example, you still have your season ticket, you and your sons hate the style, but you still attend. if it really mattered (not calling you out just proving a point) you wouldn't attend, but it doesn't, everton is more important to you as a whole and therefore you support.

 

man united has such a rabid fan base because they were constantly winning. after that bad season with moyes look how many jumped ship and bailed. the real fans stuck by because they support the club not the style, but many many fans didn't because they just care about backing a winner. I realize most here are ultras or super fans so back the team regardless, but on the whole a large part of every fan base is not.

[Romey 1878]

 

exactly. i wasn't messing pad. if we played hoofball and won the league and cups and champs league do you think anyone would be canceling tickets? hell no. they'd be in more demand. winning is all that matters. now how you get to winning by playing a style, there's an argument there for sure. but to think that style is the most important thing is laughable. if we played beautiful football but were relegated all the way to the conference not many would show up.

 

 

No one has said it's the most important thing .

[Romey 1878]

And I don't know if you've noticed, Mark, but we're not Man United and haven't won anything for 20 years so any fans that stop going certainly aren't "jumping ship" because we're not winning anything!

[Paddock]

 

exactly. i wasn't messing pad. if we played hoofball and won the league and cups and champs league do you think anyone would be canceling tickets? hell no. they'd be in more demand. winning is all that matters. now how you get to winning by playing a style, there's an argument there for sure. but to think that style is the most important thing is laughable. if we played beautiful football but were relegated all the way to the conference not many would show up.

 

winning matters. look at our style now, you all hate it, yet ticket sales were up over last year, why? we got 5th and made europa so people bought tickets cause we were winning. if the sales are down for this next year? not due to style, due to being 12th and not winning.

 

pad you are the perfect example, you still have your season ticket, you and your sons hate the style, but you still attend. if it really mattered (not calling you out just proving a point) you wouldn't attend, but it doesn't, everton is more important to you as a whole and therefore you support.

 

man united has such a rabid fan base because they were constantly winning. after that bad season with moyes look how many jumped ship and bailed. the real fans stuck by because they support the club not the style, but many many fans didn't because they just care about backing a winner. I realize most here are ultras or super fans so back the team regardless, but on the whole a large part of every fan base is not.

Mark, what are you talking about?? I never said we had to play a certain way but last season we were dull and dross AND won nothing. No cup runs, no league assault no nothing it was dross and ALL of this mixed together means he was bored.

 

I guarantee you IF he keeps up playing football like that and the results don't come gates will drop in their thousands and he will be sacked.

 

And UTD fans thT jump ship are not true urd suppoters. Every blue in Goodison on a match day aren't there because we have been winning trophies these last two decades are they?

 

Using utd ss a comparison to Everton fans is just ridiculous.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Paddock

[Cornish Steve]

I didn't say it applied to me. Only a lack of money will stop me getting a season ticket. But I can understand people's frustration after last season because I was bored shitless more often than not. There weren't many times I can recall being on the edge of my seat.

 

While Moyes was here we played a lot of dour football, with some excellent stuff drizzled in there, and we finished 4th once. I loved it. Martinez' first season showed you can entertain and finish high up the league. Last season was shit for entertainment and we finished nowhere in the league. So what's your point?

 

And Blackpool stopped playing decent football quite a while ago now.

 

My point is that most football supporters in the Prem had a soft spot for Blackpool when they were there. They payed attractive, aggressive football - and were relegated. The same might happen this year with Bournemouth. Fans wish how their teams would play such attractive football, and then wave goodbye at the end of the season. Style has to come second to winning. That's not to say boring football is acceptable; it's simply pointing out the priorities.

[Romey 1878]

 

My point is that most football supporters in the Prem had a soft spot for Blackpool when they were there. They payed attractive, aggressive football - and were relegated. The same might happen this year with Bournemouth. Fans wish how their teams would play such attractive football, and then wave goodbye at the end of the season. Style has to come second to winning. That's not to say boring football is acceptable; it's simply pointing out the priorities.

Again, no one has said entertainment is the priority. Only that it's played a role in how people are currently feeling about being a fan of Everton.

[Romey 1878]

Look at it this way - times are hard for a lot of people now, yeah? So you're looking to make sacrifices. How do you justify to yourself,and your family, spending what must easy amount to £1K a season in some cases on something you're not even enjoying anymore? It becomes hard and I can totally see why people would think to themselves that it's just not worth it, and that football can take a back seat.

 

That's my last.

[Paddock]

Playing attractive football is not the be all and end all, attractive football and entertaining football are not necessarily the same thing either. I never said we had to pay any type of football what I said was it worries me when an 8 year old is bored at the game. It's nothing to do with it being my 8 year old, ANY child saying he's bored watching us worries massively, it highlights how utterly dire the football was last season.

 

There's a plethora of things going on and he is like a jack in the box every time we go all the way there he's telling me who he thinks we'll line up with, who he hopes doesn't play for the opposition, his traditional KFC popcorn chicken meal, his programme, his bottle of Lucozade I sneak him that his mum wont allow him to have and time and time again he was left deflated. Even when we've won he has still complained about the quality of football at times, he's 8 for fucks sake that makes me worried for our future under Martinez. Not because my 8 year old is a football guru, he isn't but the fact that at such a young age he is noticing.

 

Our season last season was a damp squib, all of it. I clike Romey cannot remember being on the edge of my seat uch if at all. It was terrible from start to finish. If we'd finished 5th, won a cup even got through to a final I could see the argument but we never it was a shambles from pre season all the way to that piece of shit performance against Spurs last game of the season. By the time the United win came about it was way too littlle too late to even remotely get excited about.

[Paddock]

Look at it this way - times are hard for a lot of people now, yeah? So you're looking to make sacrifices. How do you justify to yourself,and your family, spending what must easy amount to £1K a season in some cases on something you're not even enjoying anymore? It becomes hard and I can totally see why people would think to themselves that it's just not worth it, and that football can take a back seat.

 

That's my last.

Taking into account the few aways I do, I spend easily 2 grand a year watching Everton, it'll be closer to 3 next season as my youngest has his back now and will come the aways as well. Added in to that £200 I've just spent on kits , I'll do another 200 on the away kit or 3rd, then calanders for their rooms, pencil cases rulers , ruck sacks etc for school, the Evertonian he gets ordered into the local shop and other odds and sods and I'm listening to him saying he isn't enjoying the most important bit ( the actual game) is a touch soul destroying if I'm honest.

[Hafnia]

I have been there, spending £500 on a season ticket, taking holidays to get from work, having my car broken into twice.

 

For me I will always love Everton, but i'm afraid there has never been such a gulf between the fans and the players. They flaunt their wealth in a disgracefully crass manner, disrespect the clubs by engineering moves, give lame performances as a means of sulking.

 

For me if its a choice between going the game and spending £50, not playing in the golf comp and not having family time vs golf in morning, family time and take in the match or at least 2nd half on some foreign channel then its the latter - at this moment.

 

I see all the time now, fans attend matches because they feel obliged, like they are blotting their copy book. The stunt the club pulled last season with the stickers on the seats disgusted me.

 

I actually know a Man City fan who after attending home and away for 30 years has stopped, had enough of it. That is a club with top players, he just can't nadle it any more. Become disillusioned and says the fun has disappeared.

[Cornish Steve]

I have been there, spending £500 on a season ticket, taking holidays to get from work, having my car broken into twice.

 

For me I will always love Everton, but i'm afraid there has never been such a gulf between the fans and the players. They flaunt their wealth in a disgracefully crass manner, disrespect the clubs by engineering moves, give lame performances as a means of sulking.

 

For me if its a choice between going the game and spending £50, not playing in the golf comp and not having family time vs golf in morning, family time and take in the match or at least 2nd half on some foreign channel then its the latter - at this moment.

 

I see all the time now, fans attend matches because they feel obliged, like they are blotting their copy book. The stunt the club pulled last season with the stickers on the seats disgusted me.

 

I actually know a Man City fan who after attending home and away for 30 years has stopped, had enough of it. That is a club with top players, he just can't nadle it any more. Become disillusioned and says the fun has disappeared.

 

I should do the calculation to answer my own question here: How much does the club make from the TV deal versus how much (less expenses) does it make from fans attending games? My guess is that far more comes from the TV deals, since costs are practically zero. That means that, from a financial perspective, clubs have less and less reason to worry about fan disenchantment. That's a sad state of affairs, but it's what happens when money takes over.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

exactly. i wasn't messing pad. if we played hoofball and won the league and cups and champs league do you think anyone would be canceling tickets? hell no. they'd be in more demand. winning is all that matters. now how you get to winning by playing a style, there's an argument there for sure. but to think that style is the most important thing is laughable. if we played beautiful football but were relegated all the way to the conference not many would show up.

 

winning matters. look at our style now, you all hate it, yet ticket sales were up over last year, why? we got 5th and made europa so people bought tickets cause we were winning. if the sales are down for this next year? not due to style, due to being 12th and not winning.

 

pad you are the perfect example, you still have your season ticket, you and your sons hate the style, but you still attend. if it really mattered (not calling you out just proving a point) you wouldn't attend, but it doesn't, everton is more important to you as a whole and therefore you support.

 

man united has such a rabid fan base because they were constantly winning. after that bad season with moyes look how many jumped ship and bailed. the real fans stuck by because they support the club not the style, but many many fans didn't because they just care about backing a winner. I realize most here are ultras or super fans so back the team regardless, but on the whole a large part of every fan base is not.

 

 

I think you are completely missing the point, we are not winning

 

Last season we played some of the most mind numbing football I can ever remember, Goodison was like a morgue most weekends. Now I could understand your point if it had got us results but we finished in the bottom half of the table for the first time in a decade

 

Martinez went on record to say he doesn't like to win ugly but going by his record last season it seems he's perfectly happy to lose ugly

[Paddock]

 

 

I think you are completely missing the point, we are not winning

 

Last season we played some of the most mind numbing football I can ever remember, Goodison was like a morgue most weekends. Now I could understand your point if it had got us results but we finished in the bottom half of the table for the first time in a decade

 

Martinez went on record to say he doesn't like to win ugly but going by his record last season it seems he's perfectly happy to lose ugly

Exactly right.

[pete0]

 

I should do the calculation to answer my own question here: How much does the club make from the TV deal versus how much (less expenses) does it make from fans attending games? My guess is that far more comes from the TV deals, since costs are practically zero. That means that, from a financial perspective, clubs have less and less reason to worry about fan disenchantment. That's a sad state of affairs, but it's what happens when money takes over.

The TV deals are a result of the atmosphere and passion of the English fans and its honest football. Italy was dominant in the 90s and bored the foreigners away to the brash English style, Spain and most of Europe is too stop start unfortunately we are going the way of both of those and the bubble may burst soon.