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14 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Is that a serious question? 

Yep - makes little sense going with the early games unless it fits an agenda or gives you the answer you want. Surely we saw ‘Silva’s Everton’ towards the end of the season. I think ‘agenda free’ analysis of that period may be warmly received.

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1 hour ago, c1982 said:

Yep - makes little sense going with the early games unless it fits an agenda or gives you the answer you want. Surely we saw ‘Silva’s Everton’ towards the end of the season. I think ‘agenda free’ analysis of that period may be warmly received.

Started from the start of the season as it's the start. No agenda, didn't know how many games I was gonna look at, and stopped at the point I did as I couldn't be arsed looking at the Liverpool match again. We then had a shocking run too which I've missed so don't see how the bias/agenda argument works. 

 

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24 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Started from the start of the season as it's the start. No agenda, didn't know how many games I was gonna look at, and stopped at the point I did as I couldn't be arsed looking at the Liverpool match again. We then had a shocking run too which I've missed so don't see how the bias/agenda argument works. 

 

😂😂😂

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On 08/07/2019 at 02:49, pete0 said:

Just looked at the goals scored for and against in our first eleven prem games last season. Only the short highlights so can't see whose at fault on the corners or letting crosses in too easy as I can't see everyone's positions but from I could I've broke down the players involved for the part/responsible.

Looking at the assist to the assist concept the other way, as in goals we've conceded due to a player being out of position or not making a tackle or giving the ball away too easy. There's only one winner, Gana. 

Edit: that's annoying can't seem to link the excel/pdf. 

Wolves a: 1) Jags. 2) Unsure who let the cross in, Keane

Soton h: 1) Corner, Everyone

Bournemouth a: 1) Unsure who let the cross in. 2) Baines Corner, Everyone

Huddersfield h: Corner, everyone

West Ham h: 1) Gana/Schneiderlin 2) Pickford. 3) Gana, Holgate 

Arsenal a: 1) Davies, Gana, Walcott  2) Zouma, Digne

Fulham h: 0 (although from memory and fully discussed on here Gana nearly cost us three!) 

Leicester a: 1) Gana, Kenny 

Crystal Palace: h) 0 (although Coleman did give a pen away, well saved from Pickford) 

Man U a: 1) Gana. 2) Gana, Coleman 

Brighton h: 1) Corner, Zouma 

Cardiff h: clean sheet
Chelsea a: clean sheet

Liverpool a: whoever gave the fk away, Pickford.

Newcastle h: Coleman/Gana, Digne

Watford h: 1) Digne 2) Keane

City a: 1) Mina 2) good football 3) Gomes or Mina. 

Spurs h: 1)Pickford/Zouma 2) Coleman, Gomes 3) Gomes, Coleman 4) Coleman 5) Keane 6) Coleman, Keane

Burnley a: corner, scramble maybe Keane could have done better

Brighton a: corner Gomes (unlucky)
Leicester h: Keane

Bournemouth h: clean sheet

Soton a: 1) Coleman, Gana 2) Gana

Huddersfield a: clean sheet

Wolves h: 1) Baines 2) Keane (silly fk), crossed fk, too easy but unsure who's at fault 3) Coleman 

City h: 1) crossed fk, too easy but unsure who's at fault. 2) Davies, Gana, Kenny

Watford a: corner, well played

Cardiff a: clean sheet

Liverpool h: clean sheet

Newcastle a: 1) well played 2) Gomes 3) Everyone 

Chelsea h: clean sheet
West ham a: clean sheet
Arsenal h: clean sheet

Fulham a: 1) Gana 2) Gana

Man U h: clean sheet
Palace a: clean sheet
Burnley h: clean sheet

Spurs a: 1) Corner, possibly Mina 2) direct fk

11: Gana 

7: Keane, Coleman 

6: Gomes

3: Pickford, Zouma, Digne, Mina

2: Baines, Davies, Kenny

1: Jags, Schneiderlin, Holgate, Walcott

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, pete0 said:

11: Gana 

7: Keane, Coleman 

6: Gomes

3: Pickford, Zouma, Digne, Mina

2: Baines, Davies, Kenny

1: Jags, Schneiderlin, Holgate, Walcott

15: Steven Gerrard

11: Ghandi 

7: Russell Brand

3: Ronnie Wood

2: John Terry

1: Jeremy Hunt

 

I can make ridiculous lists too. 

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26 minutes ago, StevO said:

15: Steven Gerrard

11: Ghandi 

7: Russell Brand

3: Ronnie Wood

2: John Terry

1: Jeremy Hunt

 

I can make ridiculous lists too. 

Have you checked every goal? Nope. Only thing rediculous is your comment when by your own admission you don't bother to analyse football. 

Apparently I just make this shit up? I've looked at every goal, not just Gana hence me posting in this thread, to give a fair representation of where the goals we concede come from. What's your problem? 

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8 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Have you checked every goal? Nope. Only thing rediculous is your comment when by your own admission you don't bother to analyse football. 

Apparently I just make this shit up? I've looked at every goal, not just Gana hence me posting in this thread, to give a fair representation of where the goals we concede come from. What's your problem? 

I’ve never ever said I don’t bother to analyse football. I analyse in work so wouldn’t want to be doing the crap you’re doing, for no reason at all. I analyse it when I watch it, I tend to come out with a similar opinion to most football managers, and the opposite opinion of you.

I don’t bother to look back at footage from over six months ago to prove a point. 

I told you I don’t focus on negatives, life can be hard enough. I look for positives. You’re spending hours of your life trying to convince a bunch of people on here that they are all wrong (them and the worlds footballing professionals) and your opposite opinion is right. It really doesn’t matter, so why keep peddling it? Not one single person is going to change their mind. Why not just accept your opinion is different and go and have a nice time somewhere?

My problem? None, I’m just trying to annoy you with my stupid list. 

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30 minutes ago, StevO said:

I’ve never ever said I don’t bother to analyse football. I analyse in work so wouldn’t want to be doing the crap you’re doing, for no reason at all. I analyse it when I watch it, I tend to come out with a similar opinion to most football managers, and the opposite opinion of you.

I don’t bother to look back at footage from over six months ago to prove a point. 

I told you I don’t focus on negatives, life can be hard enough. I look for positives. You’re spending hours of your life trying to convince a bunch of people on here that they are all wrong (them and the worlds footballing professionals) and your opposite opinion is right. It really doesn’t matter, so why keep peddling it? Not one single person is going to change their mind. Why not just accept your opinion is different and go and have a nice time somewhere?

My problem? None, I’m just trying to annoy you with my stupid list. 

Not annoyed just once again baffled you're a mod. I took two hours, no one forced me mind, adding content and you just sarcastically belittle it without actually scrutinising it or otherwise. 

You don't look back at all if you think Gana isn't responsible. Literally listed it and made it easy. Keep your eyes closed if you want. 

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7 hours ago, pete0 said:

Not annoyed just once again baffled you're a mod. I took two hours, no one forced me mind, adding content and you just sarcastically belittle it without actually scrutinising it or otherwise. 

You don't look back at all if you think Gana isn't responsible. Literally listed it and made it easy. Keep your eyes closed if you want. 

It’s clearly just a dig at Gana, so why not put it in the Gana thread?

you can be baffled I’m a mod all you like, if you don’t like it I suggest making a complaint to Louis or Mike. 

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7 hours ago, pete0 said:

Have you checked every goal? Nope. Only thing rediculous is your comment when by your own admission you don't bother to analyse football. 

Apparently I just make this shit up? I've looked at every goal, not just Gana hence me posting in this thread, to give a fair representation of where the goals we concede come from. What's your problem? 

You’re not making shit up, but you’re taking your interpretation as fact, which it isn’t, and dismiss facts, which are, because you don’t like them. 

Actually, I’m kinda impressed by the dedication of research part, as I’ve done similar in the past. But I went researching numbers and facts rather than making a judgement on what I want to see. 

As for the no agenda comment earlier (whichever thread that ended up in).... The eye rolling and facepalm was kinda linked to that too; you felt the need to add up to reaffirm a point that was already being challenged whilst not having an agenda? Come on now  

 

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8 hours ago, pete0 said:

Have you checked every goal? Nope. Only thing rediculous is your comment when by your own admission you don't bother to analyse football. 

Apparently I just make this shit up? I've looked at every goal, not just Gana hence me posting in this thread, to give a fair representation of where the goals we concede come from. What's your problem? 

My issue it is inaccurate and only your interpretation. I looked at one game at random (West Ham) and disproved (in my opinion) Gana’s involvement and highlighted others. Almost every goal scored can be analysed and someone from the conceding team attributed blame. When your then scrutinising the holding midfielder (Gana) who will be involved in the defence of the goal it’s likely you could over think things. If you did the same for the same position in any other team you’d get the same result (if you had an agenda). 

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4 hours ago, StevO said:

It’s clearly just a dig at Gana, so why not put it in the Gana thread?

you can be baffled I’m a mod all you like, if you don’t like it I suggest making a complaint to Louis or Mike. 

I've done the whole team. You can talk about Coleman having a shocker at Spurs. You could check the Gomes ones considering it's rare he comes under fire for giving goals away. If you enjoyed analysing football and had more time than me you might even check out the crosees which is clearly an issue. There's a lot more information than just Gana. 

I should have many a time but I'm not as petty as you. 

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4 hours ago, Matt said:

You’re not making shit up, but you’re taking your interpretation as fact, which it isn’t, and dismiss facts, which are, because you don’t like them. 

Actually, I’m kinda impressed by the dedication of research part, as I’ve done similar in the past. But I went researching numbers and facts rather than making a judgement on what I want to see. 

As for the no agenda comment earlier (whichever thread that ended up in).... The eye rolling and facepalm was kinda linked to that too; you felt the need to add up to reaffirm a point that was already being challenged whilst not having an agenda? Come on now  

 

I've put each goal individually so they can be scrutinised and limited it/kept it simple to just the main individuals from the short highlights. It'd only take 10 minutes checking any player I've named as you can speed up YouTube and still see the game to find the goal. 

Barry pulled me up on one and I've explained my reasoning. Even posted a picture of the massive hole in midfield that was exploited. 

8 minutes ago, pete0 said:

 

Quoted me instead of Barryj. Won't let me delete the quote box. 

4 hours ago, barryj said:

My issue it is inaccurate and only your interpretation. I looked at one game at random (West Ham) and disproved (in my opinion) Gana’s involvement and highlighted others. Almost every goal scored can be analysed and someone from the conceding team attributed blame. When your then scrutinising the holding midfielder (Gana) who will be involved in the defence of the goal it’s likely you could over think things. If you did the same for the same position in any other team you’d get the same result (if you had an agenda). 

He's not a holding midfielder though, as demonstrated by the goals we conceded. He's bombed forward to the ball in multiple of the goals we have conceded. That gap he leaves has then been exploited or disorganised the back 5. 

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5 hours ago, pete0 said:

Barry pulled me up on one and I've explained my reasoning. Even posted a picture of the massive hole in midfield that was exploited. 

My last post on this subject. 

Two seconds before this image you posted of this ‘hole’ Gana had played the ball into the feet of Tosun who failed to control it. Are you suggesting he should have predicted this of his fellow professional? Or as I’d expect him to do is move forward, progress the play and offer himself as an option? You moan when he doesn’t push forward and then moan when he does! I’m at a loss. He will make mistakes. All footballers do. He certainly isn’t a poor player or not fit to wear the Everton shirt. You say he’s always out of position but somehow managed to make the 6th most interceptions last season in the premier league? Luck? No great positioning and superb reading of the game. My main criticism of Gana is he’s got a terrible shot but the rest I think is a figment of your imagination. 

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32 minutes ago, barryj said:

My last post on this subject. 

Two seconds before this image you posted of this ‘hole’ Gana had played the ball into the feet of Tosun who failed to control it. Are you suggesting he should have predicted this of his fellow professional? Or as I’d expect him to do is move forward, progress the play and offer himself as an option? You moan when he doesn’t push forward and then moan when he does! I’m at a loss. He will make mistakes. All footballers do. He certainly isn’t a poor player or not fit to wear the Everton shirt. You say he’s always out of position but somehow managed to make the 6th most interceptions last season in the premier league? Luck? No great positioning and superb reading of the game. My main criticism of Gana is he’s got a terrible shot but the rest I think is a figment of your imagination. 

He's gave a shit ball, realises we've lost possession at about 14s and then immediately chased forward in hunt of the interception. 

As for getting forward he's hardly in a position showing for the ball and it's unclear whether Tosun is gonna win the ball. I don't think he was gonna push much further forward (which he'd be right to do given the risk that we weren't gonna keep possession), looks like he's slowing into a position to the left but then instinctively goes ball chasing as soon as they have possession. A better players instincts would have the run back into position to help stop the danger whereas he's dashed forward. 

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44 minutes ago, barryj said:

My last post on this subject. 

Two seconds before this image you posted of this ‘hole’ Gana had played the ball into the feet of Tosun who failed to control it. Are you suggesting he should have predicted this of his fellow professional? Or as I’d expect him to do is move forward, progress the play and offer himself as an option? You moan when he doesn’t push forward and then moan when he does! I’m at a loss. He will make mistakes. All footballers do. He certainly isn’t a poor player or not fit to wear the Everton shirt. You say he’s always out of position but somehow managed to make the 6th most interceptions last season in the premier league? Luck? No great positioning and superb reading of the game. My main criticism of Gana is he’s got a terrible shot but the rest I think is a figment of your imagination. 

He's gave a shit ball, realises we've lost possession at about 14s and then immediately chased forward in hunt of the interception. 

As for getting forward he's hardly in a position showing for the ball and it's unclear whether Tosun is gonna win the ball. I don't think he was gonna push much further forward (which he'd be right to do given the risk that we weren't gonna keep possession), looks like he's slowing into a position to the left but then instinctively goes ball chasing as soon as they have possession. A better players instincts would have the run back into position to help stop the danger whereas he's dashed forward. 

He's done almost the same in another game so hasn't learnt from his mistakes can't remember which one t thought it was Southampton but that game had an example any how. Look at the Soton game, 16s he does similar. He's also out of position for their goal 2:10, Coleman's man cuts inside as there's a Gana shaped hole (could also put some blame on Gomes as well). At fault for their second as well, pushes forward because he's a ball magnet at 3m, you'll probs not see any other professional walk past the forward to leave them one on one it's the basics of basic, stay goal side. If a youth player did that they'd likely never see the first team again. 

(also nearly gives a silly pen away on 1m)

https://youtu.be/rCCO3L4JQKw

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3 hours ago, Bailey said:

If we are being honest about it these "mistakes" are a combination of several players and split second decisions. One person may react in the wrong way but in most cases there are then other players who could and should have been able to do more. 

In a game like football players are always going to make poor decisions, but over the course of a game or season it is whether they make more good decisions than bad than determine how good they have been. I dont hide the fact that I think Gana's decision making could be better at times but I actually think he had a very good season and inproved as the season went on. He certainly did more good than he did bad. 

I don't think their mistakes, I think that's just how he plays. He's not the smartest at reading the game and has almost zero positional sense. Coaches have to share the blame to as it's not been addressed. 

Main difference when I looked at all the goals is how much easier we give goals away. We have to work much harder to score than the opposition do. Mostly set-pieces/crosses or the gaps left by Gana. Looking the other way, we don't score enough from corners and we don't get goals from space left so easily in the middle our players work much harder to find space. 

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3 hours ago, pete0 said:

I don't think their mistakes, I think that's just how he plays. He's not the smartest at reading the game and has almost zero positional sense. Coaches have to share the blame to as it's not been addressed  

If his manager is asking him to break position to press the ball, surely that’s just him following tactical instructions?

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2 hours ago, StevO said:

If his manager is asking him to break position to press the ball, surely that’s just him following tactical instructions?

Isn’t pressing a team tactic that you press as a unit not as an individual leaving others exposed, even pressing the ball has to be done in a controlled fashion. 

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1 hour ago, Palfy said:

Isn’t pressing a team tactic that you press as a unit not as an individual leaving others exposed, even pressing the ball has to be done in a controlled fashion. 

Not necessarily. For the back part of the season the tactic seemed to me like DCL, Gylfi and Gana presses high in the middle and Gomes sat behind them. The two wide players pressed the full backs. 

I guess the idea is that you can still press high but not leave yourself exposed at the back. Also, if you win the ball back Gomes is your option to pass the ball back to, he can then look for the pass but has the ability to play it. If a traditional holding midfielder was the one sitting and he wins the ball back he may not have the range of passing to help the counter. 

Thats how I saw it play out anyway. 

Thats the big difference between players like Schneiderlin who’s strength is in sitting back and Gana’s who’s strength is in the press, probably due to his pace I think. 

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19 hours ago, Palfy said:

Isn’t pressing a team tactic that you press as a unit not as an individual leaving others exposed, even pressing the ball has to be done in a controlled fashion. 

Your starting to see it our way I see. 

Gana is following orders and the others aren’t pulling their weight 😉

Palfy and Gana sitting In a tree!

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On 11/07/2019 at 17:01, StevO said:

If his manager is asking him to break position to press the ball, surely that’s just him following tactical instructions?

You still have to know when to press and not just do it mindlessly. Gana doesn't take risk v reward into account, doesn't seem to think about at all, it's like he's stuck on default to press. 

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5 hours ago, pete0 said:

You still have to know when to press and not just do it mindlessly. Gana doesn't take risk v reward into account, doesn't seem to think about at all, it's like he's stuck on default to press. 

Yeh the difference with Gana to other say Schneiderlin or Barry is that when they press or decide to, you can see them looking around at who is where and what the danger is. Gana always tries to stop the ball first and doesnt play the situation. There are pros and cons to that though as always.

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3 hours ago, MikeO said:

All very nice but when I see Olympiakos ranked 9th I have to question their methodology.

Just had a proper look at the source. Methodology is based on rating on espn and stats from each game. 

https://fivethirtyeight.com/methodology/how-our-club-soccer-predictions-work/is

No idea why it has changed so much but  in the up to date rankings Olympiakos are in the 20's, and we've moved up to 19th but with United and Arsenal above us. 

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/global-club-soccer-rankings/

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4 hours ago, Romey 1878 said:

I do love a good backward step.

I wouldn't be bothered as much if he truly was just being seen as a squad, utility player, but I fear we'll be seeing him starting every week.

same here romey.  it could be the difference between us getting 4th or 15th

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1 minute ago, Romey 1878 said:

We’ll see but I think he’ll be a starter. 

I really hope you’re wrong. I could though see him in the starting lineup first game of the season as Gana will of been in the ACON and Delph will now of had most of the preseason. I just hope that Marco doesn’t persevere unless he really proves me wrong, which I doubt. 

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21 minutes ago, barryj said:

I really hope you’re wrong. I could though see him in the starting lineup first game of the season as Gana will of been in the ACON and Delph will now of had most of the preseason. I just hope that Marco doesn’t persevere unless he really proves me wrong, which I doubt. 

He would not of signed for us if he was not given certain assurances about his playing time.

Given that we are going to start  Gomes and Siggy that leaves 1 free spot in midfield which, by the looks of it will be Delph.

That means Gana and Morgan are back up to start with. I cant imagine Gana settling for that, Morgan may as there have been no offers for him.

We have no European games, so there is not going to be the level of rotation that would mean we would use more than 2 players per position, which is what Silva and Brands want for the squad.

I cant but help think that Gana was told in December he could go, but only in the summer, when we got a replacement, and only for the right money.

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1 minute ago, London Blue said:

He would not of signed for us if he was not given certain assurances about his playing time.

Given that we are going to start  Gomes and Siggy that leaves 1 free spot in midfield which, by the looks of it will be Delph.

That means Gana and Morgan are back up to start with. I cant imagine Gana settling for that, Morgan may as there have been no offers for him.

We have no European games, so there is not going to be the level of rotation that would mean we would use more than 2 players per position, which is what Silva and Brands want for the squad.

I cant but help think that Gana was told in December he could go, but only in the summer, and only for the right money.

I’d be surprised (& hugely disappointed) if we gave anyone assurances. I think he’ll start the first game but I'm sure that he’ll be used as an option to provide cover in multiple positions. 

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15 minutes ago, barryj said:

I’d be surprised (& hugely disappointed) if we gave anyone assurances. I think he’ll start the first game but I'm sure that he’ll be used as an option to provide cover in multiple positions. 

He left the best team in Europe for more playing time, so I assume that was part of the discussions we had with him.

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2 hours ago, London Blue said:

He left the best team in Europe for more playing time, so I assume that was part of the discussions we had with him.

I think we would all agree he’ll get more playing time than at City due to the quality and depth of their squad. 

2 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

i will clarify

 

gana gone delph starts 15th place

gana stays delph on the bench 4th place

 

that's how i'm viewing this situation

I don’t think he’ll take us to the next level if a regular but saying he would cost us 11 places is ridiculously naive. 

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2 hours ago, barryj said:

I think we would all agree he’ll get more playing time than at City due to the quality and depth of their squad. 

I don’t think he’ll take us to the next level if a regular but saying he would cost us 11 places is ridiculously naive. 

Gana is the best DM in the league, replacing him with an oft injured average player would mean we are getting run over in midfield.  We’ll see how far off I am

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5 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Gana is the best DM in the league, replacing him with an oft injured average player would mean we are getting run over in midfield.  We’ll see how far off I am

It really doesn’t mean we are getting run over in midfield. If he’s that bad he won’t play. 

Lost faith in Marcel already?

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5 hours ago, markjazzbassist said:

Gana is the best DM in the league, replacing him with an oft injured average player would mean we are getting run over in midfield.  We’ll see how far off I am

Very rare we have control in midfield since the McCarthy Barry pairing, mostly because Gana is chaotic. Delph I assume will at least hold position and give us a better foothold in a game. That said I'd prefer McCarthy or Davies to be given a chance first. 

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