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Guest John Burns

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Guest John Burns

How is it twisted logic?! The team existed before the business.

I give up. It is like talking to child. We finished in the top 4 once and performed terribly in the CL with a manager who did wonders to keep us out of the relegation zone.

Edited by John Burns
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I give up. It is like talking to child. We finished in the top 4 once and performed terribly in the CL with a manager who did wonders to keep us out of the relation zone.

 

Not a good achievement considering we are the peoples club. happy.png

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I see 2 things here:

 

a: The guy rolls straight into the forum with a huge first post, probably a little too much for most fans to take in, rather than 'easing' his points into a debate.

 

b: In typical TT style, it turns into a bit of an uncomfortable thread as those that are uninterested needlessly post, and those that 'are' interested probably don't as a result.

 

All parties then get defensive, which is silly.

 

Personally it strikes me that the guy posting has an agenda regarding promoting this subject, be it a personal interest, or on behalf of the BU, as it stands out a mile that he isn't your typical forum spammer. He's still an Evertonian though, and obviously has the interests of the club in mind, regardless of if we agree or disagree, so why not be a little more hospitable ? smile.png

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When they get personal, as you are, that is when they have lost it.

 

I give up. Its like talking to child. We finished in the top 4 once and performed terribly in the CL with a manager who did wonders to keep us out of the relation zone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have you lost it John, you are trying to enforce your views on people who have views of their own, but because they dont agree with yours your calling them children.

Avin, People might have treated him a bit nicer if he didnt try to steamroller everyone.

Edited by Bill
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I personally haven't said anything bad to the guy (not that your post was aimed at me) but we should try and be more hospitable to the new people around here. We aren't the largest forum out there (not that I'd want us to be massive) but in my opinion we are the best and to keep at that standard we need regular posters on a daily basis.

 

IMO this thread is fine, people are merely posting back to the thread starter and giving him responses in the same attitude that he's posting himself. I'd just like to make the point that everyone should remember that when a new person posts they should try and be welcoming as this page can sometimes be rather hostile.

 

I love it on here, let's all keep it that way :).

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If a bloke walks into a pub and starts lecturing the regulars and telling them they're thick if they don't agree with him he can't expect a hospitable reception.

Ah but the solution is staring the bloke in the face, put together a "financial package" and buy everyone a round in the pub.

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Guest John Burns

If a bloke walks into a pub and starts lecturing the regulars and telling them they're thick if they don't agree with him he can't expect a hospitable reception.

I have not stated that anyone is thick. One clearly had twisted logic. He was shown that it was but he thought otherwise - the break off point.

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I give up. It is like talking to child. We finished in the top 4 once and performed terribly in the CL with a manager who did wonders to keep us out of the relegation zone.

how ironic....

 

Youve still not answered my question.

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If a bloke walks into a pub and starts lecturing the regulars and telling them they're thick if they don't agree with him he can't expect a hospitable reception.

 

A bloke walks into a pub and tells the barman that all Liverpool fans are arseholes. A guy in the corner stands up angrily and says "Hey, I resent that comment mate". The guy asks "Why, are you a Liverpool fan?" The guy in the corner says "No, I'm an arsehole". happy.png

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I have not stated that anyone is thick. One clearly had twisted logic. He was shown that it was but he thought otherwise - the break off point.

I challenged your opinion, doesnt make my logic twisted.

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Guest John Burns

Talking about some being "thick". I would assume those who can't stick to the points in question and resort to lowering the thread to a personal level, and insults, are thick ones.

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Guest John Burns

You've inferred it....and that's a fact.

No an opinion. You get these mixed up a lot. Now back to the points in question, otherwise people might think things of you. smile.png

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I just don't see a "right" or "only" way forward here. It's simply a matter of what we are willing to risk as a club to potentially gain further success and move us on.

 

Clubs fit in to sort of 4 models to me.

 

1) Run your club on a "Championship League" cost base, make money while you're in the premiership, make less or break even if you're in the championship. Player Wages are generally low, very little if any transfer spending over £5m,most players brought up through lower leagues, loans or youth system. I'd view WBA as opperating under this model. There is very little risk your club is going to go into administration, but then again there's a VERY SMALL chance you're ever going to get in to the Top 4.

 

2) Sell your club (and usually it's soul) to a mega-rich bazillionaire who got bored of racing his ferrari's with the other rich folks and wants a new challenge and to show that he/she can manage his/her toy better than his mega-rich peers. Great way to get success in the short term, we've yet to see what happens in 20 years+ when they all get bored of their "football club toys" and move on and take their money elsewhere. I'd view Man City and Chelsea in this model.

 

3) Live within your means model. The model we pretty much operate in today. We try to control costs as best we can, buy great players when we have the financial resources. Sell our better players at huge profit when it's right. We look to move stadium if we can do it at relatively low risk with as much funding provided risk free by other parties who may also benefit e.g. a Tesco, Council/Government Grants etc. We only move forward if we believe we can do so without signing up to a funding model where if the forecasted gates and marketing revenues are not met, we don't go into administration and turn in to the next Portsmouth.

 

4) Raise your own capital based upon the forecast of success. Build a new stadium, buy expensive great players all based upon funding from investors/banks on the promise that your forecast business case says you'll get bigger crowds who will pay more for the better facilities (Arsenal I believe are the most expensive season ticket club in the premiership) and the forecast success with better players will meen more overseas marketing income as well as European Football revenues. I'd view Arsenal in this Model, but also Leeds which means it's a major risk. You're shooting for the moon here, where if verything goes as it should, you could have your next Man Utd being developed. If it goes wrong then you we will be the next Leeds.

 

Since there are no guarentees of success and we don't have a bazillionaire ready to buy us. I'm happy with the model we have. I want us to break in to the top 4 with what we have now as I believe if we get the right manager we can do this. Then if we can get even a half-decent run in Europe we can probably look at funding a new stadium in a viable way.

 

To me John Burns proposes an Option 4) model that I think is too risky for us.

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Talking about some being "thick". I would assume those who can't stick to the points in question and resort to lowering the thread to a personal level, and insults, are thick ones.

how can we help to change the situation?

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Guest John Burns

Totally in full agreement with this chap.

 

Too many people are focussed on the end product = how we do in the league, they are missing the bigger picture.

 

We have an appallingly bad org running our club. There is no solid comercial structure, a mid level company mentality a far cry from the pioneering forefathers who enabled our club to have the history we so oftne need to quote in order to remind ourselves we are big.

 

If Martinez came in and built a top 4 team and got us earning millions in the champs league, it would help but not guarantee a solid footing in the elite. The same old things will happen, clubs that can pay more will snare our best players, and we will have this glass ceiling above our heads. The answer is to get the club turning over greater revenue, this will attract investment - a greater catchment of people = more business opportunities and chances for diversity.

 

We missed a massive opportunity with Kings Dock, and the man who was part of that mistake is still in charge of our club. Doesn't fill me with any confidence.

A good post. Many think that any new manager will continue in Moyes' shoes. That is naïve. If Martinez took over and in the first season the club won the Prem, that does not guarantee that the club will be top 4 for decades to come as Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea have been. Notts F had a magic manager in Clough. He got the best out of has-beens and young kids. But the club dropped as they never had the money to get the best to maintain that level. Evan a magician like Clough could not maintain the momentum. Black burn had a temporary injection of money and won the Prem, the money dried up and relegation ensued. A constant and solid revenue stream needs to come in. That will get the best managers and players to keep a club at the top. It is easy to understand by just looking at FACTS.

 

So EFC need to act fast as a window of opportunity has opened that cannot be missed.

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So EFC need to act fast as a window of opportunity has opened that cannot be missed.

 

Have you presented any of these ideas to the club? I'm not saying that as an attack on you but just out of interest. If you believe so strongly about your views (which you obviously do) then it might be worth getting in touch with someone at the club.

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No an opinion. You get these mixed up a lot. Now back to the points in question, otherwise people might think things of you. smile.png

 

My opinion is that your intolerance and condescending manner, along with your ridiculous relegation theories, totally undermine your argument. It may have some merit but while you continue to have such a comedy superiority complex nobody will take you seriously.

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Yeah there's no point telling us about it. Unless you're part of a big organized campaign or anything, then it just doesn't seem relevant. Unless you would want feedback, but you don't, cause you just defend your views.

 

If you want to see it happen, take it to the right people. It doesn't matter if you aren't significant, cause if you sit still and just preach your views on online forums, it's never going to go anywhere, savvy?

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Guest John Burns

3) Live within your means model. The model we pretty much operate in today.

This model is unacceptable as it will not put EFC back in its traditional level. FACT, since Everton were founded as a pro club while at Anfield the club has been the richest club in the country for most of its existence. Only in the past 20 years did EFC slip. Younger fans accept this mediocrity as the norm. I do not. It is appalling to witness the club today compared to its rivals.

 

Something must be done and the only answer is increase the revenue stream. That can only be done, and maximized, by the solution in post no. 1, a new stadium. A new stadium idea is not new, but if the club is going to build a stadium adopt the model used by the most successful club ever in building a new stadium - Arsenal. The secret was get the fans in and out fast, direct, en-mass and in comfort using mas-transit rail. Liverpool has such an urban rail network, which Manchester drools over. All this is highly achievable. The club never took transport seriously with the Kirkby proposal and rightly were shown the door. Getting mass-transit rail direct to the stadium is easy by getting LFC, the council, DfT and other interested parties (Sainbury's at Knotty Ash)on-board.

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Guest John Burns

My opinion is that your intolerance and condescending manner,

He takes it to a personal level again. Unable to engage in the points at hand. Sad isn't it.

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He takes it to a personal level again. Unable to engage in the points at hand. Sad isn't it.

 

Nobody took anything to a personal level before you didsmile.png.

 

And it's just my opinion anyway, not a fact, so don't take it too hard.

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Yeah there's no point telling us about it. Unless you're part of a big organized campaign or anything, then it just doesn't seem relevant. Unless you would want feedback, but you don't, cause you just defend your views.

 

If you want to see it happen, take it to the right people. It doesn't matter if you aren't significant, cause if you sit still and just preach your views on online forums, it's never going to go anywhere, savvy?

Most feedback has been useless - pure anti for the sake of it. Many do not want EFC to be great again that is clear, and uneducated ones taking matters to a personal level. If you read the posts, the Merseyside Civic Society know of it as do the DfT. Also the Council and it was brought up in the Council's Transport Select Committee. It appears some Evertonians are selective in what they want to know about the club and where it is going and solutions to get us there.

 

One thing is clear is that the club is at a crossroads. If the club makes the wrong decision, expect a yo-yo team for decades to come. NO Sugar Daddy will come and take over. The Sugar Daddys who took over Man C and Chelski saw a clubs that were well run with decent facilities and ambition. That will not be the case when they see the relic of GP and poor relegation fighting league record.

Edited by John Burns
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Guest John Burns

MikeO, on 20 May 2013 - 18:10, said:

Nobody took anything to a personal level before you did:).

You do not write about the points in hand. Read your own posts. Now stop cluttering the thread. Is that your aim? Destroy the thread and its content? It appears so, unless you have a character defect of course.
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blablablabla yadayadayada new stadium blablabla arsenal yadayada public transportation blablablabla

 

First of all: take a look at Everton's financial statement of the last few years. Look at the debt part. Then do a little ratio analysis. If you are not savvy yourself, then ask an accountant: Is Everton capable of big investments?

 

 

~ spoiler alert ~

 

 

 

NO.

You will lead Everton FC straight to bankrupcy.

 

 

Arsenal F.C. is profitable and has a turnover that is so big that it can support their debts. Everton does not have that advantage and a new stadium or better infrastructure will not change that in any way worth mentioning. Here is the way to guarantee Everton success:

 

- cost leadership

- profitable, but limited transfer policies

- taking youth seriously

- slowly building up reserves to be ready to finance big investments when it's called for

- keeping the squad together, achieving sportive value through a well seasoned team and a culture of loyalty ("Everton is a family")

- keep paying attention to the community, care about the people that care for you

 

OPINION.

Edited by Mirallas
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Guest John Burns

- cost leadership

- profitable, but limited transfer policies

- taking youth seriously

- slowly building up reserves to be ready to finance big investments when it's called for

- keeping the squad together, achieving sportive value through a well seasoned team and a culture of loyalty ("Everton is a family")

- keep paying attention to the community, care about the people that care for you

The above is important for sure. But the only way to get the revenue stream coming in at the top club level is via a new stadium with fast transport access. I will let you into a secret. Al the clubs who built new stadia took out loans...even Arsenal. Who were about to pay off the loan a few years ago, but never, so as tom pay the directors more money. The Emirates has paid for itself.

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I will let you into a secret. Al the clubs who built new stadia took out loans...even Arsenal.

 

Thank you captain obvious smile.png I was aware of that.

 

I will tell you a little secret of my own: loans cost money. And in Everton F.C.'s financial situation, banks (or any other institution) will ask mile high interests. So EFC is a club that is not that far from bankrupcy as it is, and your plan is to raise the costs dramatically?

 

A new stadium costs loads of money. The cost of the loan will probably double that cost. You will never compensate for that through ticket sales. Definitely not if a season isn't as good as what we've hoped for.

 

No. As I said, gradually build up a reserve, so you have to ask the bank for less money. If you also respect the other steps I said, then hopefully EFC will have reduced their debts a bit, so that if a new stadium is the order of the day, the cost of the loan will be dramatically less.

Edited by Mirallas
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No, EFC havent made a profit.

"They are one of just six clubs, along with Swansea, Wigan, Newcastle, Reading and Arsenal, to record a profit in that time, in Everton's case £12.3m"

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/may/04/david-moyes-everton

 

It is best you find out before posting.

 

I prefer to look at the published accounts. From memory we lost around £9m last year.

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