Bailey Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Anyway, I completely with the last bit. I said previously that we look more or less the same, except with stupid, pointless tiki taki bullshit across the back 4. Once he gets that through the middle, we will look better, with the tiki taki not just at the back. I wouldnt say we are playing tiki-taki by any stretch of the imagination and we never will. I think the idea is simply meant to be that if the ball isn't on then it shouldn't be played and its up to the players to make that decision. Unfortunately I think that is where we may struggle as the likes of Pienaar, Coleman and Mirallas aren't the best decision makers I have ever seen. I couldn't count the number of times Coleman ran into Yacub at the weekend because Ridgewell showed him inside every time which is exactly where he wanted him. Pienaar see's the pass but he has trouble with the execution and Mirallas is also a bit of a head down and run type of player, again running into trouble at the weekend. They are all pretty much used to getting their head down and whipping in a ball (I include Baines in this as well) but now they are being asked to look up and be selective and it will take time to come. We didnt play the ball forward quickly under Moyes and some people seem to forget that. We had our moments but 90% of the time we would play it across the back and then finally launch it forward to try and win the 2nd ball. A counter attack was practically unheard of and personally I would prefer that we keep hold of the ball at the back rather then lump it forward and lose possession. Steve_E 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 I wouldnt say we are playing tiki-taki by any stretch of the imagination and we never will. I think the idea is simply meant to be that if the ball isn't on then it shouldn't be played and its up to the players to make that decision. Unfortunately I think that is where we may struggle as the likes of Pienaar, Coleman and Mirallas aren't the best decision makers I have ever seen. I couldn't count the number of times Coleman ran into Yacub at the weekend because Ridgewell showed him inside every time which is exactly where he wanted him. Pienaar see's the pass but he has trouble with the execution and Mirallas is also a bit of a head down and run type of player, again running into trouble at the weekend. They are all pretty much used to getting their head down and whipping in a ball (I include Baines in this as well) but now they are being asked to look up and be selective and it will take time to come. We didnt play the ball forward quickly under Moyes and some people seem to forget that. We had our moments but 90% of the time we would play it across the back and then finally launch it forward to try and win the 2nd ball. A counter attack was practically unheard of and personally I would prefer that we keep hold of the ball at the back rather then lump it forward and lose possession. I thought we were, pointless 1-2s in the midfield and at the back and plenty of hoofing against West Brom. Its all well and good not passing to know where, but passing it back when theres nothing on is also not going to help. At least with a hoof you have a chance of a loose ball, we spent far too much time way away from the final 3rd pissing about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 I think the problem is two fold - we're not moving the ball about quick enough, and we're suffering from a lack of movement from some of our players. We know we don't have a lot of pace in the side but that doesn't mean you can't pass the ball with some speed. In fact, it makes it even more important. The lack of movement against WBA was infuriating. We'd have the ball and no one would even be trying to give the man with the ball an option. Or we'd pass the ball and then that man would just stop, meaning the player with the ball had nowhere to go but backwards to a defender. And for throw ins... I was on the verge of combusting! They were all standing about easily marked and then someone would have a brainwave and actually run towards the man taking the throw in! Speed of play and movement need to drastically improve on the WBA game. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 I thought we were, pointless 1-2s in the midfield and at the back and plenty of hoofing against West Brom. Its all well and good not passing to know where, but passing it back when theres nothing on is also not going to help. At least with a hoof you have a chance of a loose ball, we spent far too much time way away from the final 3rd pissing about. I think you would call that passing and not moving haha. The point is passing it back and/or switching flank allows you to start another attack and move the defence around. Hoofing a ball forward against some teams can be a decent ploy but West Brom have big strong CB's and were well organised with Mulumbu and Yacub sitting in front of them. We were unlikely to win the first ball and it would have been just as difficult to win the second ball. I have seen us pointless hoof for too long tbh and whilst we need to move the ball around quicker I would rather we keep the ball and stop them scoring than give it away and get caught out. I think the problem is two fold - we're not moving the ball about quick enough, and we're suffering from a lack of movement from some of our players. We know we don't have a lot of pace in the side but that doesn't mean you can't pass the ball with some speed. In fact, it makes it even more important. The lack of movement against WBA was infuriating. We'd have the ball and no one would even be trying to give the man with the ball an option. Or we'd pass the ball and then that man would just stop, meaning the player with the ball had nowhere to go but backwards to a defender. And for throw ins... I was on the verge of combusting! They were all standing about easily marked and then someone would have a brainwave and actually run towards the man taking the throw in! Speed of play and movement need to drastically improve on the WBA game. Yeh we didnt move. I think Barkley did alright in that regard and Kone was excellent at moving defenders when he came on, but Osman, Felli and Mirallas especially didnt do enough. Having said that WBA did their job very well as well and they made it difficult. We got the ball in good areas but didnt do enough with it. We created some chances, and IMO enough to win the game, but ultimately we had the ball in attacking areas but lacked the quality to make the most of it. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Btw, when I say we need to move the ball quicker I don't for a second mean launch the ball at the earliest opportunity. Keep the same passing game but just give the ball to a team mate quicker, don't allow the opposition player the time to position themselves correctly. Sibdane, Matt and Steve_E 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 (edited) From my point of view on Saturday (upper gwladys) it seemed our back two had the ball, and one of the midfielders should have been dropping short to pick the ball up. In preseason Gibson was coming back to take the ball, which in turn created space for Fellaini slightly in front of him to take the second ball and have more options with the three players in front of him. On Saturday no one was coming back to take the ball in the middle, Osman and Fellaini both didn't want to come deep, so our back two revert to type and either play to the full back or hit it long. Just like we saw for the last 11 years. In this formation one of the midfield two needs to be the pivot, Gibson has taken on this role, but when he's out of the side someone needs to step in. I've seen it said before that if the man with the ball has no options and loses possession it's not his fault, it's his team mates fault for not giving the option. Edited August 26, 2013 by StevO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 From my point of view on Saturday (upper gwladys) it seemed our back two had the ball, and one of the midfielders should have been dropping short to pick the ball up. In preseason Gibson was coming back to take the ball, which in turn created space for Fellaini slightly in front of him to take the second ball and have more options with the three players in front of him. On Saturday no one was coming back to take the ball in the middle, Osman and Fellaini both didn't want to come deep, so our back two revert to type and either play to the full back or hit it long. Just like we saw for the last 11 years. In this formation one of the midfield two needs to be the pivot, Gibson has taken on this role, but when he's out of the side someone needs to step in. thought Felli did come deep quite a few times, though mainly to defend. But even when he was looking to bring it out from the back, he went wide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 He did on occasion, but it needs to be every time. I'm fine with him coming deep to defend, that's part of his job. I just think him and Osman didn't help Jags and Distin enough when they were in possession. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 He did on occasion, but it needs to be every time. I'm fine with him coming deep to defend, that's part of his job. I just think him and Osman didn't help Jags and Distin enough when they were in possession. It would be nice if they could just help themselves though. If someone needs to drop in between them in order for them to be able to pass the ball past a couple of defenders, we're getting less options in front to pass it to. WBA had two defending up front so I understand it's not always gonna happen. But even when Osman dropped in between them (so they were actively playing 3 vs 2 because they didn't have a midfielder pushing up to press Osman most of the time) they still needed too many touches to find someone. Whether that's their fault or not, I can't always tell as the camera focuses on the ball so I can't really see what's going on in front of them. If there isn't a pass on, someone like Vertonghen will simply drive the ball into midfield himself, but Sylvain and Jags can't really do that either. The midfielders needed way too many touches as well btw. They're going to need to pass it more in one touch if we're gonna call it tiki-taka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 i'll clarify my definition of tiki taki - pointless passing to bore the opposition to death... pete0 and Quinn31 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 The midfielders needed way too many touches as well btw. They're going to need to pass it more in one touch if we're gonna call it tiki-taka That's what I mean about us needing to play faster. We're taking far too many touches before releasing the ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 i'll clarify my definition of tiki taki - pointless passing to bore the opposition to death... I sense you're not a fan Personally I'm a fan of goals like these from last week: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssZU6LsK4Do http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzLBtZNmFuY I do get what you're saying though. Barcelona aren't the best defenders so they use it as a defensive strategy as well (passenaccio if you will). And Barça simply play badly too sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 It's also 1-2m clips out of 90+ (Levante game was an exception, as they were inept and invited trouble) Ive always hated it, since 2008 Euros. Football is more than just lots of little passes and the occasional goal. I enjoy the physical contest, the individual battles, mazy runs. Tiki taki takes all of that away from the game in my opinion Quinn31 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 I just love the way they inject speed into the move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 I just love the way they inject speed into the move.but it so often comes to nothing. It's so frustrating! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 I just love the way they inject speed into the move. For the first goal, it's great to see Fabregas making that run towards the goal: he has a look over his shoulder towards the middle and sees Xavi and then he makes that run, he's not expecting to get the ball from the player ont he left, he's expecting to be the third man there. Great awareness. but it so often comes to nothing. It's so frustrating! Most moves come to nothing, regardless of how you play. If you just look at the amount of shots and goals, tiki taka comes to something a hell of a lot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 (edited) but it so often comes to nothing. It's so frustrating! Put it this way Id rather have the ball and try and make something happen by being patient than forcing something to happen and giving the ball to the other team. If you are going to create 5 chances a game, I would rather it be through possession play than the other. Edited August 26, 2013 by Bailey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Agree to disagree mate seen Barca many times (live and followed them intensely since 2010after living there for a year). No doubt it can be impressive but most of the time it's boring for me Quinn31, SimonButtle, Steve_E and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Put it this way Id rather have the ball and try and make something happen by being patient then forcing something to happen and giving the ball to the other team. If you are going to create 5 chances a game, I would rather it be through possession play than the other.we did that against Norwich and West Brom - came to nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 we did that against Norwich and West Brom - came to nothing Well we scored 2 against Norwich and created some good oppunities to score more and in the West Brom game we probably did enough to win but still kept hold of the ball well and stopped them from scoring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Came to nothing in terms of wins. We should have won both but spent too much time passing it about rather than pressing AussieBlueBlood 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quinn31 Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Got to be honest, I really like what I've seen from some of the big German teams (Dortmund, Munich, etc), they combine good passing and good runs with physical elements of the game. Barca's version of Tiki Taki is boring to me, so one dimensional. Passing is a key part of the game, but there is more to football than 5-7 yard passes. Matt, marcus jones and pete0 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Angel Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Matt, you havnt got a clue about football. Go and support the shite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Matt, you havnt got a clue about football. Go and support the shite. shouldn't you be getting ready for school? flaminfox and Quinn31 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flaminfox Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 I think a mixture, like Quinn mentioned, would be more effective and entertaining. Quinn31 and Steve_E 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalziel Kane Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 shouldn't you be getting ready for school? Unfortunately they're not due back for another good two weeks yet. Maybe longer in some parts. Said it before, some will be upset or frustrated with Martinez and the team after two games, but it's only two damn games in. We'll be good for this season and pick up maximum points soon enough and maybe even win a trophy again with the Spaniard. The thread title still reads ridiculous as you know there's no chance that Martinez will be fired in his first season. Even if the club finishes in sixteenth place, (which it won't), Kenwright will keep hold of him for seasons to come. Man's going nowhere fast, anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_E Posted August 27, 2013 Report Share Posted August 27, 2013 I think a mixture, like Quinn mentioned, would be more effective and entertaining. I agree too. I also don't think Martinez wants us to play tiki taka like Barcelona. BTW, Bayern and Barcelona were the only two teams in Europe's top leagues who had more than 60% possession in their leagues over an entire season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 27, 2013 Report Share Posted August 27, 2013 Got to be honest, I really like what I've seen from some of the big German teams (Dortmund, Munich, etc), they combine good passing and good runs with physical elements of the game. Barca's version of Tiki Taki is boring to me, so one dimensional. Passing is a key part of the game, but there is more to football than 5-7 yard passes. Me too and I think that will be the way we will head. Quinn31 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted August 27, 2013 Report Share Posted August 27, 2013 (edited) Agree to disagree mate seen Barca many times (live and followed them intensely since 2010after living there for a year). No doubt it can be impressive but most of the time it's boring for me This is one of the reasons i was never 100% convinced on signing Martinez as manager,Hopefully he will adapt as a manager and use what he has here because the barca system is a very particular style of play and we don't have enough of those sort of technical players across the squad to play it. Barca manage it because they have the correct players and their players happen to be the best of the best so that's why they always look impressive. We simply have not got the players/squad for it imo, id much rather see us mix it up, the top teams can do a bit of everything during the 90 mins. Edited August 27, 2013 by Simon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weebittight Posted August 29, 2013 Report Share Posted August 29, 2013 I get the feeling a lot of punters have already made their minds up about Martinez - probably the same ones who did not want him in the first place.I hope he is given realistic targets and the time he needs to achieve them. We should have won the first two league games but sometimes the ball breaks favourably for the opposition or a keeper has a blinder. Do we look like a decent Premier League team? Do we have several good youngsters in the squad? I say yes to both. What we lack is glaringly obvious - and we do not have the funds to address it. Bailey and Sideliner 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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