Brett Angel Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 All I can say is David moyes was a results getter. But even this could not gain him silverware... I would take RM any day of the week. If people think we are going to get in the champions league with that squad, you are deluded. For now, until some hard investment is put in, I would like to watch a truely entertaining side with the goal of getting as high up the league as we can and as far in a cup as we can. We'll never be world beaters. Pulis was results getter like moyes but who would want to watch his side every saturday? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 All I can say is David moyes was a results getter. But even this could not gain him silverware... I would take RM any day of the week. If people think we are going to get in the champions league with that squad, you are deluded. For now, until some hard investment is put in, I would like to watch a truely entertaining side with the goal of getting as high up the league as we can and as far in a cup as we can. We'll never be world beaters. Pulis was results getter like moyes but who would want to watch his side every saturday? 40+ games against the Sky4 without a win. Under Martinez we are creating more chances and conceding less, the points will come. Last season in the same 2 fixtures we lost one, and undeservedly won the other one thanks to a bit of luck. Luck, well lack of, being the main reason we don't have max points so far. nutmegwolf203 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 40+ games against the Sky4 without a win. Under Martinez we are creating more chances and conceding less, the points will come. Last season in the same 2 fixtures we lost one, and undeservedly won the other one thanks to a bit of luck. Luck, well lack of, being the main reason we don't have max points so far. that cannot be right, we've beaten Utd, City and Chelsea in the last couple of years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 that cannot be right, we've beaten Utd, City and Chelsea in the last couple of years Away. Only 3 wins a piece at home, which isn't great either, just 14% win rate overall, unacceptable. RM managed a 19% average with Wigan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Haven't we beaten City at their place a couple of times? Not trying to defend the indefensible, I'm just amazed by this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Haven't we beaten City at their place a couple of times? Not trying to defend the indefensible, I'm just amazed by this. The Sky 4: Arsenal, Chelsea, Lpoo, and United. 44 attempts and didn't give us bragging rights once Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 FFS close this thread before I start a "why David Moyes was and is an overrated egotistical arrogant prick" I seen his Tory esque politician Teflon shite yonks ago, he's at a club that meets his needs. We've got Bob, lets get behind him through this much needed transition. Zoo and Sideliner 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-trust-roberto.png Just for you Haf . Cornish Steve and Romey 1878 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/keep-calm-and-trust-roberto.png Just for you Haf . I don't think he's a miracle worker but the poor bastard could do without having the ex manager being a tit whist "his" ex players like jags have shite games launching longs balls like they were playing a top 4 team. In bob I certainly do trust. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 I agree with you mate. He'll get there, it's just going to take a while, and maybe even another couple of transfer windows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Angel Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Does anyone think RM is really losing patience with both jags and distan for there continuous long ball launching when under pressure. You can only play great football with great players. Technically I think a number if players have it in the bag but for those killer passes that are made from the brain rather than the feet, I think we're struggling to find beyond pienarr and baines... That's why we are always struggling to fund that killer pass. Wr can pass it across the midfield all day long without ever finding that killer one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Does anyone think RM is really losing patience with both jags and distan for there continuous long ball launching when under pressure. You can only play great football with great players. Technically I think a number if players have it in the bag but for those killer passes that are made from the brain rather than the feet, I think we're struggling to find beyond pienarr and baines... That's why we are always struggling to fund that killer pass. Wr can pass it across the midfield all day long without ever finding that killer one... Said it the other day; Martinez needs to be allowed to bring in one or two players this window with the express purpose of being able to play the way he wants. Until then I think we'll struggle to really put his ideas into action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Said it the other day; Martinez needs to be allowed to bring in one or two players this window with the express purpose of being able to play the way he wants. Until then I think we'll struggle to really put his ideas into action. It's a bit like crocodile Dundee, some of those poor bastards will still sleep on the floor despite having a comfy bed. They just need to reintegrate themselves into football. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 In the long-term, adapt or fail. Either players learn how to adapt to the new passing style, or they will find themselves on the bench or shipped out. Yes, RM will be cautious initially so as not to upset the fan base, but, in the end, he needs the players to match his philosophy. Many of the existing players are adapting, and some are thriving, but others may not be able to adapt. Time will tell. Everyone needs to be given the opportunity - and to be allowed to fail sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avinalaff Posted August 25, 2013 Report Share Posted August 25, 2013 Away. Only 3 wins a piece at home, which isn't great either, just 14% win rate overall, unacceptable. RM managed a 19% average with Wigan. Very few teams go to those grounds and get a result, and we all know from experience that the top teams have been protected, and will probably be protected again. It's like a boxer fighting in the States against an American boxer. You really have to knock the guy out to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Very few teams go to those grounds and get a result, and we all know from experience that the top teams have been protected, and will probably be protected again. It's like a boxer fighting in the States against an American boxer. You really have to knock the guy out to win. 4 teams, 44 attempts is more than any other club in the league last season needed. 10/19 clubs in the last 2 seasons have managed to do it: QPR, Swansea, Villa, WBA, Spurs, City, Wigan, Newc, Fulham, Bburn. RM done Liverpool and Arsenal in 11/12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeO Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 4 teams, 44 attempts is more than any other club in the league last season needed. 10/19 clubs in the last 2 seasons have managed to do it: QPR, Swansea, Villa, WBA, Spurs, City, Wigan, Newc, Fulham, Bburn. RM done Liverpool and Arsenal in 11/12. Wolves, Blackpool, Spurs x 2, Sunderland, Villa, West Brom & Newcastle did it in 10/11. pete0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Said it the other day; Martinez needs to be allowed to bring in one or two players this window with the express purpose of being able to play the way he wants. Until then I think we'll struggle to really put his ideas into action. Hes done that though. 3 players who he has already worked with and a 4th hes chosen and presumably thinks can adapt to his way. 4 players in 1 window - thats quite a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Hes done that though. 3 players who he has already worked with and a 4th hes chosen and presumably thinks can adapt to his way. 4 players in 1 window - thats quite a few. Only Kone is likely to play regularly, so no he hasn't. I'm talking about bringing in first teamers who will make a difference to the way we play, not squad players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 (edited) Only Kone is likely to play regularly, so no he hasn't. I'm talking about bringing in first teamers who will make a difference to the way we play, not squad players. then hes never going to do that without selling edit: plus, the players who has signed offer more than just on the pitch. They will help in training, to demonstrate the new theories there as well, so Id say he has, regardless of whether they are first 11 or not. Then, he brought his coaching staff in.... Hes got plenty there to put his new way into place. Edited August 26, 2013 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 then hes never going to do that without selling edit: plus, the players who has signed offer more than just on the pitch. They will help in training, to demonstrate the new theories there as well, so Id say he has. Which is an absolute piss take. Richest league in the world and we can't support our manager adequately? I'm not saying we should hand our manager £25m or anything like that, but Kone and Robles can't have cost more than £8m between them. You would expect he could bring in one other decent priced player before having to sell. Are you purposely dense, Matt? It's obvious I mean the way we play on the pitch, in an actual game. These squad players can influence our training, and that might help slightly when it comes to a game, but if the players we have can't play the way Martinez wants then that's that. We need to bring in a couple of players who will go straight into the starting 11 and be able to do what Martinez expects from them, replacing the ones who can't. Once you have those players in there then things will click. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 (edited) Which is an absolute piss take. Richest league in the world and we can't support our manager adequately? I'm not saying we should hand our manager £25m or anything like that, but Kone and Robles can't have cost more than £8m between them. You would expect he could bring in one other decent priced player before having to sell. Are you purposely dense, Matt? It's obvious I mean the way we play on the pitch, in an actual game. These squad players can influence our training, and that might help slightly when it comes to a game, but if the players we have can't play the way Martinez wants then that's that. We need to bring in a couple of players who will go straight into the starting 11 and be able to do what Martinez expects from them, replacing the ones who can't. Once you have those players in there then things will click. Purposely dense?! :shaking fist: In an actual game, you apply what you learnt in training, with the squad players and coaching staff. Perfectly sensible point in my opinion. Koné might well become more than a squad player, considering the competition up front and we dont know about Alcaraz (though Id be surprised if he was anything more, if im honest). Any players that we bring in will also have to learn the new style, along with our current 11, so signing players isnt going to guarantee a change either. Yes, its shit that we cant support our new manager, but its the world we live in. We also dont know who is left on Robertos shopping list, nor the funds (if any) available. on top of that, we're 2 games in. half the clubs staff has gone, including its captain of many years and its manager of longer. theres nothing to say that the players signed before Martinezs reign wont adapt. But to expect them to change in 12 weeks, after 11 years of the previous stewardship is ludicrous! Edited August 26, 2013 by Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 You can apply what you've learnt in training only if you're able. If you're not able then it won't work. Hence, me saying he needs to be allowed to bring players in that already play in the way he wants the team to be able to play. Don't really understand your point about Kone when I've already said he's likely to be more than a squad player? I'm not expecting the players to have completely adapted already, what I'm saying is that Martinez should be allowed to bring in a couple of players who can come in and do what he wants. Making the transition easier. We need to improve the first 11 whether our players adapt well or not anyway! I've seen it mentioned that Martinez is trying to change too much, too fast. I'd go the other way and say he hasn't changed enough. These are Moyes' players that he's trying to fit into his way. He should supplement them with his own. He needs to, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 You can apply what you've learnt in training only if you're able. If you're not able then it won't work. Hence, me saying he needs to be allowed to bring players in that already play in the way he wants the team to be able to play. Don't really understand your point about Kone when I've already said he's likely to be more than a squad player? I'm not expecting the players to have completely adapted already, what I'm saying is that Martinez should be allowed to bring in a couple of players who can come in and do what he wants. Making the transition easier. We need to improve the first 11 whether our players adapt well or not anyway! I've seen it mentioned that Martinez is trying to change too much, too fast. I'd go the other way and say he hasn't changed enough. These are Moyes' players that he's trying to fit into his way. He should supplement them with his own. He needs to, IMO. Id certainly agree with that last bit. The problem he has is that no-one wants the players that don't really fit into his system, at least not at their market value. Unfortunately he will just have to do what he can until then and he is doing that by introducing the likes of Barkley and Stones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 You can apply what you've learnt in training only if you're able. If you're not able then it won't work. Hence, me saying he needs to be allowed to bring players in that already play in the way he wants the team to be able to play. Don't really understand your point about Kone when I've already said he's likely to be more than a squad player? I'm not expecting the players to have completely adapted already, what I'm saying is that Martinez should be allowed to bring in a couple of players who can come in and do what he wants. Making the transition easier. We need to improve the first 11 whether our players adapt well or not anyway! I've seen it mentioned that Martinez is trying to change too much, too fast. I'd go the other way and say he hasn't changed enough. These are Moyes' players that he's trying to fit into his way. He should supplement them with his own. He needs to, IMO. http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/2013/08/26/tim-we-ll-get-it-right Who is to say our starting 11 isnt able to adapt? Its been a matter of weeks, and a lot of our players have been here for years! Howard, Jags, Distin, Baines, Coleman, Felli, Pienaar, Anichebe, Osman - all of which have player for us for more than 3 years, much longer in some cases. Thats the basis of the starting 11! Any new players would also have to adapt. There is no new comer (McCarthy, maybe Moses, being potential exceptions) guaranteed to adapt. Dont forget, Martinez isnt going to replicate everything he did at Wigan. He will be taking strengths from what he knows, and what he is learning at the club, so even bringing either of those 2 in, they would have new things to learn, which they may not. I'll say it again, he should be supported in the transfer market. To a degree, he has been - I was agreeing with you on Kone. How many times did Moyes get to sign 3 players + a loanee? Should he be supported further? Absolutely. Do we have cash to do so? Who knows. Is our financial situation appalling? Absolutely, but thats a different conversation that we both know each others opinions on (i think). Do we have other details in the pipeline? We dont know! are you being purposely dense? Anyway, I completely with the last bit. I said previously that we look more or less the same, except with stupid, pointless tiki taki bullshit across the back 4. Once he gets that through the middle, we will look better, with the tiki taki not just at the back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 I haven't even said our first 11 can't adapt, although, I think it highly unlikely that they all will. And, like I said in my last post, the first 11 needs improving whatever else happens. It hasn't been. We've fleshed out the squad, that's it. You say the new players would also have to adapt - yes they would, but the point is that players are brought in who ALREADY play the way that's needed. So it's a case of adapting to a new club, rather than a new way of playing! I don't even know how this became a financial issue, as my original post was just about bringing in players in to suit the system, however they're paid for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Fair enough. I'll stop now, I'm clearly not explaining myself well enough. No need for names though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 No need for names though Just think of The Killers song (it's denser, not dancer, god damnit!) and you'll be fine . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 Just think of The Killers song (it's denser, not dancer, god damnit!) and you'll be fine .aaah, you were trying to serenade me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted August 26, 2013 Report Share Posted August 26, 2013 aaah, you were trying to serenade me Always, my little cherub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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