David Moyes thread

[Romey 1878]

excellent write up.

 

 

I thought so too and it echoes a lot of my feelings towards Moyes and why I wasn't bothered in the slightest that he left.

[Matt]

 

 

I thought so too and it echoes a lot of my feelings towards Moyes and why I wasn't bothered in the slightest that he left.

cant say I wasnt bothered but I wasnt as heartbroken as I thought I wouldve been.

[Hafnia]

cant say I wasnt bothered but I wasnt as heartbroken as I thought I wouldve been.

 

I think the moyes fans are the ones who believe that he rescued us from league 2 and that without him we would always therefore be sent straight down to the champions league.

 

I think some (myself) are a little less "manager loyal" - they view him as an employee of the club who should not be given so much slack for what he has done, but has to follow on and build on that momentum. For me he was always referring to where we where financially, how he had a penknife, how we should accept that there will always be 7 clubs that we can't really finish above. It got all very tiring and depressing, then to witness his pragmatism in full flow at goodison in front of 35,000 fans against lower league opponents...

 

He is uniteds problem/success to own now. Personally I think he's making a bit of a mess for himself, Rooney is a highly influencial member of the dressing room, a player who I have seen want the ball when the others have run out of ideas, someone they look to..... ah well, get the popcorn, its gonna be good to watch all this

[Matt]

 

I think the moyes fans are the ones who believe that he rescued us from league 2 and that without him we would always therefore be sent straight down to the champions league.

 

I think some (myself) are a little less "manager loyal" - they view him as an employee of the club who should not be given so much slack for what he has done, but has to follow on and build on that momentum. For me he was always referring to where we where financially, how he had a penknife, how we should accept that there will always be 7 clubs that we can't really finish above. It got all very tiring and depressing, then to witness his pragmatism in full flow at goodison in front of 35,000 fans against lower league opponents...

 

He is uniteds problem/success to own now. Personally I think he's making a bit of a mess for himself, Rooney is a highly influencial member of the dressing room, a player who I have seen want the ball when the others have run out of ideas, someone they look to..... ah well, get the popcorn, its gonna be good to watch all this

my fear of him leaving was based purely on remembering the 10 years before him, and his 10 years (when I was old enough to be more invested, despite moving abroad) in charge was all I really knew. It was a fear of the unknown. I was a Moyes fan, I still am in some respects because of what he did for us and I want to see him succeed, but above all Im an Everton fan.

[Hafnia]

my fear of him leaving was based purely on remembering the 10 years before him, and his 10 years (when I was old enough to be more invested, despite moving abroad) in charge was all I really knew. It was a fear of the unknown. I was a Moyes fan, I still am in some respects because of what he did for us and I want to see him succeed, but above all Im an Everton fan.

 

My manager experiences have been:-

 

1984-87 = Howard Kendall. Brilliant times, great team, great spirit, goodison was rocking.

1987-90 = Colin Harvey. Disappointing given the era we enjoyed under Kendall, suffered with players leaving to compete in Europe, ban impacted us.

1990-93 = Howard Kendall. Disappointment continued.

1994 = Mike Walker. Just awful. Seriously thought we were going down.

1994-97 = Joe Royle. Brilliant times, Won FA Cup, dogs of war, unlucky not to get into Europe. Britpop, hot summers, euro 96, ace

1997-98 = Howard Kendall. Just awful, should never have come back.

1998-02 = Walter Smith. Ageing squad, bad signings, going in wrong direction

2002-13 = Moyes, great consolidator, gave us relief in knowing that we wouldnt go down, but failed when stakes were high. Overall steadied a rocky ship very well.

 

In two of the managers I have watched us play, I have seen a spirit, belief and atmosphere that I have yet seen to be replicated, that was Kendall 84 and Royle 94-97. Watching us play at Goodison was ace, we actually thought we could beat anyone, we would go to Anfield, Old trafford etc and have a right go. Under Moyes I got the impression we would never be that side again. Under martinez I believe we will.

[Avinalaff]

I think its a piece that reflects my view and frustrations of Moyes latter part of his tenure at Everton.

 

For me this Rooney fiasco has been handled appallingly badly. Rooney is a fan favourite and Moyes has basically called him a squad player... I can't help but think Fergie is exacting his revenge a few years after the event - when the consequences wont reflect on him.

Are you an LCAB fan Haf?

[Hafnia]

Are you an LCAB fan Haf?

 

Seen a couple of his posts, he's an ITK.

[Avinalaff]

 

Seen a couple of his posts, he's an ITK.

 

I'm aware of dear David lol. The GOT itk worshipping was one of my biggest irritations on GOT. I was once wrongly accused of starting a thread that somebody had created having a go at his ego, which I wasn't too chuffed about, as it wasn't hard for an admin to check an ip wasn't mine, but the soft gits had deleted it without checking. Personally I look upon itk's as annoying at best and the LCAB grasp for stardom was particularly cheesy lol.

[SimonButtle]

 

I'm aware of dear David lol. The GOT itk worshipping was one of my biggest irritations on GOT. I was once wrongly accused of starting a thread that somebody had created having a go at his ego, which I wasn't too chuffed about, as it wasn't hard for an admin to check an ip wasn't mine, but the soft gits had deleted it without checking. Personally I look upon itk's as annoying at best and the LCAB grasp for stardom was particularly cheesy lol.

LCAB only worked when Moyes was here, there was no doubt he clearly knew someone(s) within the camp. If you notice since Martinez started he has been very quiet about stuff and posted very little which suggest HIS source has possibly gone? John Merro is just one of Greg O'Keefes mates from what i can gather. The only reliable EFC itk source seems to be THT(there have been some suggestions that a youth player maybe involved with this) seems to be really on the ball all the time and sometimes Fourth Official(although a lot of that is just reposted stuff from foreign Journo's)

[Avinalaff]

LCAB only worked when Moyes was here, there was no doubt he clearly knew someone(s) within the camp. If you notice since Martinez started he has been very quiet about stuff and posted very little which suggest HIS source has possibly gone? John Merro is just one of Greg O'Keefes mates from what i can gather. The only reliable EFC itk source seems to be THT(there have been some suggestions that a youth player maybe involved with this) seems to be really on the ball all the time and sometimes Fourth Official(although a lot of that is just reposted stuff from foreign Journo's)

 

His source 'was' THT mate.

Not really interested in any of them to be fair. You can have all the rumours you want but until it's booted up and on the pitch it's just rumours.

[Matt]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/10200933/Robin-van-Persies-pre-season-injury-niggle-is-down-to-dinosaur-coaching-methods-says-Dutch-fitness-expert.html

 

 

oh dear...

[SimonButtle]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/10200933/Robin-van-Persies-pre-season-injury-niggle-is-down-to-dinosaur-coaching-methods-says-Dutch-fitness-expert.html

 

 

oh dear...

Van Persie has never had the best injury record, so i would think over training him can't be the best of ideas surely? Rooney also had a huge blast at Moyes when he left about the way that Everton trained, said most of the players were knackered before the season even started(would go along way to explain previous slow starts)

[Zoo]

The more you read about Moyes at United the more you realise what a clown he was. Fantastic getting us where we did in the 10/11 years that he was here but some of his methods of management need to be seriously questioned.

[Matt]

The more you read about Moyes at United the more you realise what a clown he was. Fantastic getting us where we did in the 10/11 years that he was here but some of his methods of management need to be seriously questioned.

bit harsh mate?

[Zoo]

In terms of getting us to the Top 6-8 then yeah he was brilliant. But when you find out what he was like on the training ground it's baffling. Maybe the term clown was a bit OTT but it's mad to see that his training consists of 110% fitness and burning out players engines. I'd much prefer Martinez who seems to be focused on football over fitness.

[Romey 1878]

It was interesting that when talking about pre-season training Osman said pretty much everything they've done so far this season has involved the ball, and he then said that's something they're not used to!

[Matt]

In terms of getting us to the Top 6-8 then yeah he was brilliant. But when you find out what he was like on the training ground it's baffling. Maybe the term clown was a bit OTT but it's mad to see that his training consists of 110% fitness and burning out players engines. I'd much prefer Martinez who seems to be focused on football over fitness.

I think he is trying to stamp his authority, I dont blame him.

[Zoo]

It was interesting that when talking about pre-season training Osman said pretty much everything they've done so far this season has involved the ball, and he then said that's something they're not used to!

 

That's what I mean. At the time Moyes seemed the best thing since sliced bread but since he's left there have been a few things that have raised an eye-brow.

 

More ball-work with Martinez might bring a more direct approach in games (which I would welcome) as I was sick of us attacking Arsenal-style with pass, pass, pass, pass all the time.

[Bill]

Arsenal style, pass pass pass I'd settle for that this season.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Bill

[Matt]

 

That's what I mean. At the time Moyes seemed the best thing since sliced bread but since he's left there have been a few things that have raised an eye-brow.

 

More ball-work with Martinez might bring a more direct approach in games (which I would welcome) as I was sick of us attacking Arsenal-style with pass, pass, pass, pass all the time.

Moyes was criticized for his direct approach, he tried beating Arsenal at their own game

[Zoo]

Week in and week out I'd go to Goodison and see us tap it around and do nothing with the ball. Attacking football is exactly what we need. Defensive, tippy-tappy football gets us nowhere.

[SimonButtle]

It was interesting that when talking about pre-season training Osman said pretty much everything they've done so far this season has involved the ball, and he then said that's something they're not used to!

That was one of the things that i remember Rooney saying as well.

[Steve_E]

 

That's what I mean. At the time Moyes seemed the best thing since sliced bread but since he's left there have been a few things that have raised an eye-brow.

 

More ball-work with Martinez might bring a more direct approach in games (which I would welcome) as I was sick of us attacking Arsenal-style with pass, pass, pass, pass all the time.

 

I think you might be in for a rude awakening Wigan played 14408 successful passes last season, Everton played 12250 successfull passes last season. They also attempted less headed passes (603 succesful and 550 unsuccessful = 1153 attempted headers for Wigan vs 716 succesful and 673 unsuccessful = 1389 attempted headers). There's likely gonna be less crosses and balls dropped into the box, Moyes is probably one of the more direct managers in the league. Wigan did play a larger percentage of their passes forward though (37,6% to 34,5%). Martinez probably aims to play more like Arsenal than Moyes does. You do realize that only Chelsea and Manchester United scored more goals than Arsenal last season and they have significantly more talent than Wenger's side does.

 

The point of "trying to walk it into goal" is to get good shots btw. This is the average amount of shots it takes to score from a specific area of the pitch over the last 3 PL seasons:

 

 

(http://differentgame.wordpress.com/spam-our-model/)

 

And this is a heat map that shows where Arsenal took their shots from:

 

If we could even come close to performing that way we'll be bathing in goals.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Steve_E

[Hafnia]

Brother always made the observation that the players looked shattered at the start of the season, I did always wonder why we seemed lean etc but no zip. I also recalled this excellent and extremely relevant article around how moyes seemed to focus on flogging players no matter who they were -

 

http://www.toffeeweb.com/season/10-11/comment/fan/16679.html

[Steve_E]

 

I think you might be in for a rude awakening Wigan played 14408 successful passes last season, Everton played 12250 successfull passes last season. They also attempted less headed passes (603 succesful and 550 unsuccessful = 1153 attempted headers for Wigan vs 716 succesful and 673 unsuccessful = 1389 attempted headers). There's likely gonna be less crosses and balls dropped into the box, Moyes is probably one of the more direct managers in the league. Wigan did play a larger percentage of their passes forward though (37,6% to 34,5%). Martinez probably aims to play more like Arsenal than Moyes does. You do realize that only Chelsea and Manchester United scored more goals than Arsenal last season and they have significantly more talent than Wenger's side does.

 

The point of "trying to walk it into goal" is to get good shots btw. This is the average amount of shots it takes to score from a specific area of the pitch over the last 3 PL seasons:

 

pic

 

(http://differentgame.wordpress.com/spam-our-model/)

 

And this is a heat map that shows where Arsenal took their shots from:

 

pic

 

If we could even come close to performing that way we'll be bathing in goals.

 

Just adding some more info:

 

...

 

They shot it once every 3.10 minutes that they had the ball in 2011/2012, which was slightly above average. This year though, Everton were downright lethal in that category, only taking an average of 2.83 to shoot the ball when they had it. That was the third fastest clip in the league. More of the ball, and more efficient use of it meant Everton took 633 shots this season, up 113 from a year ago.

 

 

So, where was the problem? Well, despite shooting a lot and a marked improvement in possession, Everton’s underlying stats still indicate that they don’t have the correct make-up or approach to breakdown a defense. And they needed to break down defenses, because despite shooting 113 more times, they only increased their shot after a counter-attack number from 13 to 14. Unsurprisingly over a third of those (5) were thanks to Kevin Mirallas. Basically, they don’t pass the ball quickly enough to create good chances if a defense is settled in front of them. When it comes to moving the ball at speed, Everton were one of the worst clubs in the Premier League this year. They made the fifth fewest passes per minute when they had the ball. That’s a reflection of the two main tenants of their attack, long balls held up by Fellaini, and running with the ball in space by Baines and Coleman. But, it’s also an indictment of their creativity, especially when you consider that their passing numbers actually got slower than they had been the year before. Everton’s numbers put them in the company of Stoke, and West Ham, on a per minute basis. Everton’s attack was fine as far as stage one was concerned, but they seemed to lack the ability to up the passing tempo and either play around teams in a defensive shell or draw those teams out. That resulted in a lot more touches in the opponents' final third and penalty area, but not a lot more goals. Both the total touches and the rate of touches in those two areas increased this year, while passing speed decreased. That’s a symptom of a team trying and failing to find space.

 

...

Now, to be fair to Everton’s players, this isn’t exactly a squad constructed to play pretty, one touch football. They don’t have a creative playmaker, they don’t really have a deep lying playmaker (Gibson is a nice and important player for Everton, and his range of passing is positively epic compared to those around him, but Paul Scholes he is not), and they really only have one attacker with any ability to beat somebody off the dribble, Kevin Mirallas. None of this is an accident by the way. Those positions are expensive, and Everton have no money. Instead, Moyes constructed a team that plays a somewhat inefficient brand of football, but executes it extremely well. Physicality and hold up play, combined with overlaps on the wings and crosses (Everton crossed the ball once every 1.81 minutes they had it, well more than any other team in the top seven, Man United were closest at once every 2.01).

http://www.royalbluemersey.com/2013/5/21/4350978/Everton-tactical-review-offensive-edition

 

 

You should click the following link to read it, I can't format it right here:

 

I wanted to put up a little appendix to my latest piece over on Royal Blue Mersey. When I was putting together the statistics to use, I was really quite surprised at how ugly adjusting for time of possession made Everton look. When you compare their numbers adjusted for time of possession to West Ham and Stoke this is what you come up with.

Possession Passes per Minute of Possession Minutes of Possession per Cross Goal ConversionRate Minutes of Possession per Shot Everton 52.3% 8.84 1:49 8.7% 2:50 Stoke 42.3% 8.49 1:41 8.7% 3:43 West Ham 42.3% 8.69 1:26 9.1% 2:56 EPL Average 50% 9.45 2:00 10.06% 3:16

For comparison sake, here’s how Everton looks compared to the teams below and above them in the table.

Possession Passes per Minute of Possession Minutes of Possession per Cross Goal Conversion Minute of Possession per Shot Everton 52.3% 8.84 1:49 8.7% 2:50 Tottenham 52.7% 9.24 2:02 9.6% 2:39 Liverpool 57.5% 10.07 2:29 9.7% 2:40 EPL Average 50% 9.45 2:00 10.06% 3:16

Stylistically Everton have a lot more in common with teams that depend on the long ball than their supporters are comfortable admitting. Certainly their profile is more similar to Stoke, and West Ham, than Spurs or Liverpool. The Toffees distanced themselves this year based on the speed of their execution, and the amount of bites they have at the apple thanks to a marked possession advantage over teams that played a similar style.

Everton play an inefficient offensive style, but at least they execute it at an elite level.

http://tacticalstrikes.com/2013/05/21/evertons-offense-a-statistical-appendix/

Edited July 25, 2013 by Steve_E

[Bailey]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/10200933/Robin-van-Persies-pre-season-injury-niggle-is-down-to-dinosaur-coaching-methods-says-Dutch-fitness-expert.html

 

 

oh dear...

 

I would be just as worried about him admitting to asking some of the more experienced players about how to manage in the Champions League tbh.

[Matt]

 

I would be just as worried about him admitting to asking some of the more experienced players about how to manage in the Champions League tbh.

I think that was very honest, and brave, of him. He recognizes his lack of experience and turns to one of the most experienced players in the game. I know I would do the exact same thing, without hesitation or shame.

[Bailey]

I could understand him going to Fergie or another big manager but not to a current player (even if he is a player/coach). I think it makes him look weak tbh.

[Matt]

I could understand him going to Fergie or another big manager but not to a current player (even if he is a player/coach). I think it makes him look weak tbh.

if he goes to Fergie he looks weaker, and like the puppet some people are perceiving him as. He has made Giggs a player / coach, makes perfect sense to me.

[Cornish Steve]

I think that was very honest, and brave, of him. He recognizes his lack of experience and turns to one of the most experienced players in the game. I know I would do the exact same thing, without hesitation or shame.

 

I would do the same, but I wouldn't announce it to the press.