David Moyes thread

[Guest Nikica]

Never really bought Vidic's hype for numerous reasons. Despite him being quite a good (albeit thuggish) defender I always felt Rio was comfortably the better defender and footballer, but I've had the Vidic plenty of times and cba discussing it. Just wanted to say so though as you were all talking about the Serb above. He's an inferior Stam for me.

 

I have tried to give Moyes some benefit of the doubt in regards to his start to the Man United job, but yesterday was really pathetic - constant reliance on crosses (when their players aren't even that good at them) is a style from a prehistoric age and has no place in contemporary football. Where was the variation/desire to switch things up?

 

More baffling subs from him as well - he was simply throwing on all of his attackers as he felt it was worth it with them having 80% possession, but he did it in a way where it made no sense - he moved Rooney back to midfield (again) and asked him to break into the box alongside RVP for the crosses - despite the fact that that was playing into Fulham's hands as they flooded the box with their tall defenders. Mata, Young, Rooney, Evra, Januzaj, Rafael etc - most of them were putting in easily dealt with crosses - it was quite desperate to watch. Bringing on Valencia at RB was also an attempt to overwhelm Fulham with sheer numbers, but it was actually part of what cost them the equaliser as he was posted missing (although Rafael isn't exactly the greatest defender himself). The worrying thing is that it's not the first time Valencia has come on at RB and been one of the players at fault for a goal, but Moyes continues to try it. Throwing on Hernandez made sense in the way United were playing i.e. constant crossing and no attempts to break Fulham down on the edge of the box, but it would have made far more sense to try and play through the middle and not bring him on at all (as his link-up play is terrible and RVP was on the park to finish potential chances).

 

As I say, Moyes seems to just throw on all his attacking players in an attempt to overwhelm the other team. It's percentage football - cross, cross, cross until we get it right. I knew they'd probably get lucky eventually, and they did, but that sort of football simply isn't sustainable week in week out. Fulham went forward about five times yet had three of the best chances of the game, scoring from two of them. It's simply terrible football which played into Fulham's minority of strengths and exposed none of their many weaknesses. Ferguson used to rely on width, crossing and overwhelming the opposing team with sheer numbers, but it were never as prehistoric as this, mainly because Ferguson at least showed some semblance of a structure and he knew how to instill a belief in players - a quality Moyes sorely lacks. United have played average football for a few years now but Moyes has made them more turgid than ever.

 

I really think if Moyes hangs around he'll end up destroying them. Allowing him to rebuild the squad is something which shouldn't be entrusted to him.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Nikica

[Cornish Steve]

I have tried to give Moyes some benefit of the doubt in regards to his start to the Man United job, but yesterday was really pathetic - constant reliance on crosses...

 

I came across this video yesterday. It says it all, really.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKC9KdBCgW4

[Zoo]

Moyes having Mata is like your nan having an iPhone. Doesn't know what to do with it.

[Guest Nikica]

 

I came across this video yesterday. It says it all, really.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKC9KdBCgW4

 

I saw this video this morning - it's hilarious sped up and with that music. Moyes is providing too much comedy - I could hardly eat my macaroni right after the game yesterday - I was laughing a lot.

 

 

Moyes having Mata is like your nan having an iPhone. Doesn't know what to do with it.

 

 

"tits on a bull" rofl

[ManUtdFan18]

Losing Vidic is a huge blow, I believe he is definately good enough to do the job at United and he is a leader. We could really use his experience, even if he is demoted to a squad player.

 

As for Mata, Gary Neville rightly pointed out that Mata doesn't fit the traditional United system. You guys probably know Moyes' playing style better than I do but from what I know, he isn't a big fan of attacking midfielders who makes little to no contribution defensively.

 

I think both Fellaini and Mata were panic buys. £64m could have been spend better on a true worldclass midfielder (like Febregas, Modric or Moutinho), and a replacement for Evra (like Coentrao, Shaw or Moreno).

[Hafnia]

Losing Vidic is a huge blow, I believe he is definately good enough to do the job at United and he is a leader. We could really use his experience, even if he is demoted to a squad player.

 

As for Mata, Gary Neville rightly pointed out that Mata doesn't fit the traditional United system. You guys probably know Moyes' playing style better than I do but from what I know, he isn't a big fan of attacking midfielders who makes little to no contribution defensively.

 

I think both Fellaini and Mata were panic buys. £64m could have been spend better on a true worldclass midfielder (like Febregas, Modric or Moutinho), and a replacement for Evra (like Coentrao, Shaw or Moreno).

 

Unfortunately for you Moyes is the manager who excells at the lower end of the table, once in the mid table he lacks any progression to evolve his tactics or players.

 

Attacking midfielders and strikers to Moyes are like Kevin Pietersen to Geoff Boycott... just doesn't get them. Give him a team of Danny Wellbecks and he knows what to do.

 

It's no surprise that Vidic and Rio (plus RVP) seem to have fallen out with him - he doesn't like alpha males.... there can be only one.

[Matt]

 

Unfortunately for you Moyes is the manager who excells at the lower end of the table, once in the mid table he lacks any progression to evolve his tactics or players.

 

Attacking midfielders and strikers to Moyes are like Kevin Pietersen to Geoff Boycott... just doesn't get them. Give him a team of Danny Wellbecks and he knows what to do.

 

It's no surprise that Vidic and Rio (plus RVP) seem to have fallen out with him - he doesn't like alpha males.... there can be only one.

Moyes is also very good at stabilizing a sinking ship. SAF knew his squad was deteriorating and in Moyes he has someone who can set them up again. Problem is that in the meantime, they wont win anything...

[Cornish Steve]

Losing Vidic is a huge blow, I believe he is definately good enough to do the job at United and he is a leader. We could really use his experience, even if he is demoted to a squad player.

 

As for Mata, Gary Neville rightly pointed out that Mata doesn't fit the traditional United system. You guys probably know Moyes' playing style better than I do but from what I know, he isn't a big fan of attacking midfielders who makes little to no contribution defensively.

 

I think both Fellaini and Mata were panic buys. £64m could have been spend better on a true worldclass midfielder (like Febregas, Modric or Moutinho), and a replacement for Evra (like Coentrao, Shaw or Moreno).

 

That's a good assessment. What bewilders me is why buy Mata and then play him out of position?!

[Cornish Steve]

Moyes is also very good at stabilizing a sinking ship. SAF knew his squad was deteriorating and in Moyes he has someone who can set them up again. Problem is that in the meantime, they wont win anything...

 

And the big questions is whether or not he'll be given the time to do this. Not surprisingly, an increasing number of Reds fans are calling for his head on a platter. It's not easy to implement long-term change in today's game - although Brenda has done it quite well. His owners were patient. Will the Glazers have that same patience?

[Bailey]

Moyes is also very good at stabilizing a sinking ship. SAF knew his squad was deteriorating and in Moyes he has someone who can set them up again. Problem is that in the meantime, they wont win anything...

 

I think Fergie did the opposite tbh. Fergie bleeds Utd and there is no way he would have left a poor squad (in his eyes) for his successor. Last year was a weak league I admit but they won it with ease and you dont suddenly go from being almost unbeatable at OT to being unbelievably poor in that short space of time with largely the same squad.

 

If Utd had signed a couple of good quality young players in the summer to strengthen core areas (mainly midfield) and flogged some of the dead wood (which he looks as though they are starting to) then they would not be in the position they are now.

[Matt]

I think Fergie did the opposite tbh. Fergie bleeds Utd and there is no way he would have left a poor squad (in his eyes) for his successor. Last year was a weak league I admit but they won it with ease and you dont suddenly go from being almost unbeatable at OT to being unbelievably poor in that short space of time with largely the same squad.

 

If Utd had signed a couple of good quality young players in the summer to strengthen core areas (mainly midfield) and flogged some of the dead wood (which he looks as though they are starting to) then they would not be in the position they are now.

i know what you mean, and yes last season was 'easily' won, but it's been a clear decline over 3-5 years in terms of what Utd standards expect (in my opinion) Edited February 11, 2014 by Matt

[Bailey]

i know what you mean, and yes last season was 'easily' won, but it's been a clear decline over 3-5 years in terms of what Utd standards expect (in my opinion)

 

Yeh I wouldnt disagree with that. Utd's decline has fallen in line with the Premier League's IMO.

 

I think this is the first time in a while that the league has gone up a notch and Utd have kept declining. Utd's squad is not as good as any of the current top 4 (other than up front) but it hasnt been for a while and they have still done well.

 

To be fair to Moyes though, he hasnt had much luck with injuries so far this season and as we know, when you lack depth it can cause a few problems. Again though, its not like he hasnt had the money to bring in more players if he didnt think that he had enough cover.

[ManUtdFan18]

An open letter to Moyes by Everton fan

 

The above fan article sums up how majority of United fans feel rightnow. Moyes' football style have been horrible, United attempted 81 crosses against Fulham! There was no tall player to aim at so the tactics did not work. There was no plan B.

I agree with Matt that squad haven't been the strongest in last few years but to draw at Old Trafford against bottom of the league table with players such as Rooney, Van Persie and Mata is just unacceptable.

Attacking midfielders and strikers to Moyes are like Kevin Pietersen to Geoff Boycott... just doesn't get them. Give him a team of Danny Wellbecks and he knows what to do.

Its so tue, I feel like crying.

That's a good assessment. What bewilders me is why buy Mata and then play him out of position?!

Well, Moyes and Ed Woodward screwed up big time during Summer window so that had to do something in winter. They weren't gonna miss out on a top player like Mata even though Mata doesn't fit Moyes' style of play.

Mata's best position is #10 but thats where Rooney plays. Against Stoke, Moyes actually prefered Danny Welbeck as #10, even though both Mata and Rooney were on pitch. Like someone already said here, Moyes with Mata is pretty much tits on bull.

I think Mata can play on flanks in a 4-3-3 system, which is never going to happen under David Moyes at least.

 

Edited: Fixed link.

Edited February 11, 2014 by ManUtdFan18

[Cornish Steve]

I enjoyed reading the comments below that article. For example: "Who would want the Everton job? Everton won't win anything for years to come." Well, Roberto Martinez seriously wanted the job, and he has his sights on winning something in his first year - including his first game at Old Trafford. First, it's about attitude; then, it's about tactics. Moyes' attitude is negative (don't lose) whereas Martinez' attitude is positive (let's win). Moyes' tactics are one-dimensional and from the Middle Ages, while Martinez' tactics demand flexibility and cutting edge formations. I, for one, enjoy watching Everton this season and genuinely feel sorry for the dull and inept play that United fans are expected to watch.

 

I have no doubt that Moyes will succeed if he's given the time needed to do so; however, will it be with a style of play that United fans will enjoy?

[marcopaulo]

 

Yeh I wouldnt disagree with that. Utd's decline has fallen in line with the Premier League's IMO.

 

I think this is the first time in a while that the league has gone up a notch and Utd have kept declining. Utd's squad is not as good as any of the current top 4 (other than up front) but it hasnt been for a while and they have still done well.

 

To be fair to Moyes though, he hasnt had much luck with injuries so far this season and as we know, when you lack depth it can cause a few problems. Again though, its not like he hasnt had the money to bring in more players if he didnt think that he had enough cover.

 

on the injuries they've only really come to players who it was expected of...everyone knows utd may have the most injury prone defence in the league..was his own fault not to replace them

[Matt]

I enjoyed reading the comments below that article. For example: "Who would want the Everton job? Everton won't win anything for years to come." Well, Roberto Martinez seriously wanted the job, and he has his sights on winning something in his first year - including his first game at Old Trafford. First, it's about attitude; then, it's about tactics. Moyes' attitude is negative (don't lose) whereas Martinez' attitude is positive (let's win). Moyes' tactics are one-dimensional and from the Middle Ages, while Martinez' tactics demand flexibility and cutting edge formations. I, for one, enjoy watching Everton this season and genuinely feel sorry for the dull and inept play that United fans are expected to watch.

 

I have no doubt that Moyes will succeed if he's given the time needed to do so; however, will it be with a style of play that United fans will enjoy?

yawn... Sorry Steve but this is just not true.

 

Formation wise, we are playing more or less the same (4231). Tactics wise, the only difference I can see is we keep the ball better in our defensive third, not much difference in the offensive third and that we play a much higher line. Oh, and Martinez knows how to make positive substitutions, something that Moyes has done but for the most part, messed up.

 

I really get the feeling some fans want to forget the "Everton are playing like Barcelona" football we played under Moyes for years, not something that happened only every now and again. Whether theyre angry he stayed too long on too high a salary, or the way he spoke about us for the last 9 months, who cares? But to say he was inept is just not true. We played great football under Moyes a lot of the time. Hoofball? Ok, it was frustrating, but so is this tiki taka at the back. Moyes' tactics got us into Europe against bigger spending teams, to the final of the FA cup (a run that saw us beat 5 EPL teams including Liverpool and Man Utd) - how did he do that? Because he was very tactically aware of the opposition and setup in a way that saw us win.

 

Also, Moyes bases his games on statistics (maybe part of the reason why he is considered so strict) using state of the art software to help him. There was an article on here a while ago explaining how he analyses every pass, every position and from that builds his plan of attack. Some times it worked, some times it didnt, much like Martinezs tactics. Hes also responsible for creating the Baines / Pienaar partnership, not to mention setting us up with 2 attacking fullbacks, arguably the best in the league. Martinez hasnt touched how they play, just changed their mindset and giving them confidence. That is why Im happy for the change.

 

Dont get me wrong, Im glad for the change but to write of Moyes as "one dimensional an from the Middle Ages" simply isnt true. Its just bitter sniping.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Matt

[Hafnia]

yawn... Sorry Steve but this is just not true.

 

Formation wise, we are playing more or less the same (4231). Tactics wise, the only difference I can see is we keep the ball better in our defensive third, not much difference in the offensive third and that we play a much higher line. Oh, and Martinez knows how to make positive substitutions, something that Moyes has done but for the most part, messed up.

 

I really get the feeling some fans want to forget the "Everton are playing like Barcelona" football we played under Moyes for years, not something that happened only every now and again. Whether theyre angry he stayed too long on too high a salary, or the way he spoke about us for the last 9 months, who cares? But to say he was inept is just not true. We played great football under Moyes a lot of the time. Hoofball? Ok, it was frustrating, but so is this tiki taka at the back. Moyes' tactics got us into Europe against bigger spending teams, to the final of the FA cup (a run that saw us beat 5 EPL teams including Liverpool and Man Utd) - how did he do that? Because he was very tactically aware of the opposition and setup in a way that saw us win.

 

Also, Moyes bases his games on statistics (maybe part of the reason why he is considered so strict) using state of the art software to help him. There was an article on here a while ago explaining how he analyses every pass, every position and from that builds his plan of attack. Some times it worked, some times it didnt, much like Martinezs tactics. Hes also responsible for creating the Baines / Pienaar partnership, not to mention setting us up with 2 attacking fullbacks, arguably the best in the league. Martinez hasnt touched how they play, just changed their mindset and giving them confidence. That is why Im happy for the change.

 

Dont get me wrong, Im glad for the change but to write of Moyes as "one dimensional an from the Middle Ages" simply isnt true. Its just bitter sniping.

 

Sadly Matt this "Barcelona" thing was the odd game when the opposition just didn't turn up... i've seen Stoke look like that before now. It was an exception rather than rule. Moyes tactics were and are from a tatty little book he has somewhere in his locker, 3 pages long and no words such as "if this doesn't work try XY or Z"

 

I know through a friend someone who has worked for Moyes as an analyst... his primary aim was understanding how the opposition are likely to "attack us" - rather than how succeptible they are to certain styles. That was clear in his time at the club IMO.

 

Anyway.... does anyone recognise this team.....

 

 

• 01 De Gea
• 03 Evra
• 04 Jones
• 06 Evans
• 12 Smalling
• 08 Anderson (Giggs - 68' )
• 17 Nani (Park Ji-sung - 68' )
• 18 Young
• 23 Cleverley
• 10 Rooney
• 19 Welbeck (Hernandez - 35' )

 

Nope??? It was the Man United side that beat Arsenal 8-2. All these excuses about his players is just nonsense.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Hafnia

[Matt]

coming from the most bitter of Moyes haters, Im just going to agree to disagree here

[Hafnia]

coming from the most bitter of Moyes haters, Im just going to agree to disagree here

 

Bitter or not, my opinions of him have always been balanced, tangible and are being found as true. That you can't deny.

[Matt]

 

Bitter or not, my opinions of him have always been balanced, tangible and are being found as true. That you can't deny.

I can and do deny, which is why Im stopping!

[Romey 1878]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/feb/11/manchester-united-david-moyes

[Hafnia]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/feb/11/manchester-united-david-moyes

 

 

He can't treat the main press like he did the local press - big own goal Davie Lad.... you are in AVB territory now kid.

 

 

It was gently pointed out that his team were 21 points worse off than at this stage last season. "Well, I was at Everton so I wasn't 21 points worse off," he replied. "I was at Everton."

OK, but United, how has it gone that way? "The improvement in the teams in the Premier League has been big," he said. "There have been a lot of improvements from sides in the Premier League and obviously we've not done as well." That was about as expansive as it became.

 

What a pedantic clown he has become.

[Lowensda]

By your reckoning Haf, this is Moyes fault as well?

 

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/worst-free-kick-ever-man-united-loanee-bebe-takes-a-diabolical-free-kick-for-pacos-v-porto-vine/

[Hafnia]

By your reckoning Haf, this is Moyes fault as well?

 

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/worst-free-kick-ever-man-united-loanee-bebe-takes-a-diabolical-free-kick-for-pacos-v-porto-vine/

 

 

Bebe moyes fault??? nah, he was a fergie lemon was he not?

[Cornish Steve]

yawn... Sorry Steve but this is just not true.

 

You would know better than I on this. Until last summer, I was on the outside looking in - following Wigan and not Everton. Frankly, I couldn't watch Everton play for very long because the style was so dull. I remember trying to watch an FA Cup game (don't remember whether it was a final or semifinal), expecting it to be a rousing game - and Everton never really showed up. The team just sat back and tried to frustrate. If I can draw an analogy, it was like watching the England rugby team kicking the call all the time and not running with it: Sometimes it can be effective (they were world champions at one point), but it's really boring to watch.

 

But, as I say, you've watched Everton inside and out for a long while, and my surface observations are not at the same level. On the other hand, I am excited by the flexibility and style of play displayed by this year's team.

[Cornish Steve]

What a pedantic clown he has become.

 

That's kicking the guy when he's down. From that press release, you could tell the immense pressure he is under. Yes, such interactions with the press are essential - and we're spoiled because Martinez thrives on them - but not every football manager is cut out to be a PR man. Ultimately, what matters is his team management skills. The United team should step in more and help him in these media events - a little more prep, for example.

 

At this point, he must realize himself that he's a little out of his depth. On the field, given time, he'll turn things around. Can he handle all the other aspects of today's management job - setting fan expectations, managing the press, establishing a long-term strategy - and do so with good grace? This is where he struggles. Mind you, SAF wasn't exactly the most bubbly of personalities either and could be very cantankerous with the press.

[Cornish Steve]

 

Bitter or not, my opinions of him have always been balanced, tangible and are being found as true. That you can't deny.

 

That reminds me of the catch-phrase of Fox News here in the US: "fair and balanced".

[Hafnia]

 

That's kicking the guy when he's down. From that press release, you could tell the immense pressure he is under. Yes, such interactions with the press are essential - and we're spoiled because Martinez thrives on them - but not every football manager is cut out to be a PR man. Ultimately, what matters is his team management skills. The United team should step in more and help him in these media events - a little more prep, for example.

 

At this point, he must realize himself that he's a little out of his depth. On the field, given time, he'll turn things around. Can he handle all the other aspects of today's management job - setting fan expectations, managing the press, establishing a long-term strategy - and do so with good grace? This is where he struggles. Mind you, SAF wasn't exactly the most bubbly of personalities either and could be very cantankerous with the press.

 

well he should have been mindful of the fact that when disrespecting Everton he wouldn't get much sympathy.

[Matt]

 

You would know better than I on this. Until last summer, I was on the outside looking in - following Wigan and not Everton. Frankly, I couldn't watch Everton play for very long because the style was so dull. I remember trying to watch an FA Cup game (don't remember whether it was a final or semifinal), expecting it to be a rousing game - and Everton never really showed up. The team just sat back and tried to frustrate. If I can draw an analogy, it was like watching the England rugby team kicking the call all the time and not running with it: Sometimes it can be effective (they were world champions at one point), but it's really boring to watch.

 

But, as I say, you've watched Everton inside and out for a long while, and my surface observations are not at the same level. On the other hand, I am excited by the flexibility and style of play displayed by this year's team.

Apologies if I came across rude, today has been a shite day and I actually walked out of the office because Id had enough (for the health of others as well as mine - Ive never had a day like this)

 

Everton played some great football under Moyes, in my eyes, the majority rather than the minority of the time. Like I said, he established our attacking threat down the left, brought in Coleman who is surpassing (at least my) expectations, as well as our 2 CBs and keeper. Then theres the stability to the club which he and the board eventually delivered which is often under-appreciated. People may not have the same opinion, which is fair enough, but prior to that my memories of Everton were Johnson with Smith, Royle and Walker - though Royle won us something at least. I know some of the older members have memories when we were a great team - for me thats just stories and not experience and I can only base my opinions, like anyone, on what theyve seen and experience.

 

One thing I will agree on is that he focused too much on the opposition. Some times this worked and some times it didnt. Some times it was very exciting, some times it wasnt. Martinez is very different in his approach, but like I said, Im not seeing a huge difference with the exception of the things I mentioned before - some times it works, some times it doesnt. I also hear a lot of the same complaints "we lack creativity to break down the opposition", "aimless passing (short or long/hoofball, same thing to me if the passing leads nowhere", "lots of possession, no end product". So again, I dont get the Moyes slating.

 

One big difference for me - under Moyes, if we went behind I didnt expect to pull it back all the time (depended on the game) or if we went ahead by 1, I was never truly confident that we would hold it. Under Martinez, I am confident we will score at least once in the game so even if we go behind, I know we will throw everything at the opposition to salvage a point, or to demolish the opposition if we are winning. Moyes did that occasionally (3-3 and 4-4 against Utd spring to mind) but not enough to give faith in the team and him.

 

Sometimes I wish we were all in the pub debating this, because its hard to get everything down on paper/screen!

[Cornish Steve]

Apologies if I came across rude, today has been a shite day and I actually walked out of the office because Id had enough (for the health of others as well as mine - Ive never had a day like this)

 

Appreciate the comment, but there's really no need to apologize. Frankly, you were setting me straight! Hope your day goes a little better from here.