Matt Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 Would people be happy with a situation where the academy graduates were from another continent ? Here the million dollar question "if your son had the talent of Ross Barkley, would you trust Moyes to nurture him?" Heres a million dollar split-question: how and why did that turn into a dig at Moyes when the initial question had nothing to do with our ex-manager, nor anything to do with any of our youth teams? time to move on Haf..... Steve_E 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 Just read this thread and the link. That link has me really excited. I dont care if we use this season to bring players in for next year! to think i might see these young boys come of age now and make a name for themselves is really exciting. And if RM lets them play thier own game..... well, we could be looking at Barkley as an England saviour in a few years time. I will say that 10% seems about right for us though, every division has a handful of everton rejects playing there. And i think that is RMs point. Everton have a great youth system but dont develop them after that. We get so many potential stars of the future come through at 17 to 18 years old that just seem to go stale. RM is going to take the next step now and push them through and turn them into top players. DM started a great youth system at Everton, but thats all it was. RM is going to continue that and make Everton a great place for 18 to 22 year olds to progress. Matt, Romey 1878 and Sideliner 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 It's like our education system, right? We do a good job educating students until they are 18. We even do a good job educating them until they are 21. But does that mean we've prepared them to be productive workers? Not at all! We have to start with the end goal (productive workers) and then make sure the 'system' is consistent with that goal. In this case, we're educating players until they are 18, maybe until they are 21, but do we have the end goal in mind? Is there a well-defined and effective process for converting top-class youngsters into regular first-team players? Since Everton has lost so many over the years, it would seem not - although I don't think other clubs do much better. It's clear that one of RM's primary goals is to get more out of our investment in youth development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Regulator Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 We can't forget either that prospects are just...prospects. Not all of the youth players that have had potential reach it because it's potential, what we think they could do, not what they can actually achieve. That being said I think we have quite a few now who deserve first team shots, Duffy and Barkley being 2 of the most prominent in that pool. I've said all along I can't wait til Ross is a first team regular for us, as I feel he has bags of talent and his development was slowed down hugely by that triple leg break. I'm hoping Martinez has the idea of mixing old and new, giving everyone a chance at different stages. Also given our financial situation, I think it's part of why Bill brought him here. If we can add value to our youth, and sell others on their abilities, then even if we lose some players to other teams it will be for decent money, money to reinvest in the squad. After all youth doesn't have all the answers, but if we keep developing them hopefully we can have the best of both, by either selling them for a good price or by them becoming integral to our first team. Matt, Sibdane, Quinn31 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 Bloody he'll the guys that good he had three legs! Poor bigger broke em all. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 Part of the problem with youth development is people build these youngsters up and up and up without actually ever watching them play, they claim they'll be world class based on YouTube clips and champ manager wonder kid tags... then when they don't turn out to be that good it's down to poor coaching and them not being given chances! But is it down to this? It is evident that English youngsters aren't at a premium class wise and I do think this is because of grassroots and lack of fluency/communication/plans between the FA and clubs. Here at Everton we as fans build youngsters up, I think at bit too much. I would like to see the likes Barkley given more opportunities but only on merit. We've seen the likes of Kissock, Baxter and many more being hailed as the next star but were they really? Where are they now? I'd like a thread on here where people who actually watch the reserves and academy feed back to us - not just people seeing George Green's wonder goal on YouTube then deciding he is worldclass then moaning that we've ruined him because he was the next big thing! Quinn31 and Sibdane 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 That's true enough but they're is also a responsibility by the club to make sure they are getting the right support. I have watched many kids left to rot, when you could see the potential just needed nurturing. Also there are hundreds of players that were told they weren't good enough by a team and then went on to be stars. Basically there is merit to both sides of the argument. And anyone that has actually watched Barkley for real will know this guy has the ability, he just needs the mental attitude now, and that is the responsibility of the coaches and club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 Part of the problem with youth development is people build these youngsters up and up and up without actually ever watching them play, they claim they'll be world class based on YouTube clips and champ manager wonder kid tags... then when they don't turn out to be that good it's down to poor coaching and them not being given chances! But is it down to this? It is evident that English youngsters aren't at a premium class wise and I do think this is because of grassroots and lack of fluency/communication/plans between the FA and clubs. Here at Everton we as fans build youngsters up, I think at bit too much. I would like to see the likes Barkley given more opportunities but only on merit. We've seen the likes of Kissock, Baxter and many more being hailed as the next star but were they really? Where are they now? I'd like a thread on here where people who actually watch the reserves and academy feed back to us - not just people seeing George Green's wonder goal on YouTube then deciding he is worldclass then moaning that we've ruined him because he was the next big thing! Baxter scored a shitload of goals for a poor league one side, has now gone to one of the championship teams(i think,not sure who) I have always said and still stand by it, Jose Baxter will come back to haunt us one day, we should never have let him go. Kissock plays down the leagues, but when we let him go i don't think football was a priority to him, he was interested in skateboarding and music more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shukes Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 That's true enough but they're is also a responsibility by the club to make sure they are getting the right support. I have watched many kids left to rot, when you could see the potential just needed nurturing. Also there are hundreds of players that were told they weren't good enough by a team and then went on to be stars. Basically there is merit to both sides of the argument. And anyone that has actually watched Barkley for real will know this guy has the ability, he just needs the mental attitude now, and that is the responsibility of the coaches and club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted July 22, 2013 Report Share Posted July 22, 2013 Kissock is playing for Macclesfield in the conference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 The one player I think we were really unfortunate with was Vaughan. If he hadn't constantly been getting injured Im sure he would have been scoring for fun in the Premier League by now. I still think he will make it to the top one day though. Looking at the youth set up as a whole I do think that we have missed out on recent years. The likes of Ruddy, Jutkiewicz, Baxter, Wallace, Mustafi etc all left for peanuts when we should and could have got more which is really important for us. Ruddy always looked a competent keeper whenever I saw him play (on loan), Baxter clearly possesses a lot of technical ability and Wallace went straight into being the captain at Tranmere which says a lot about his character and ability. I don't know the exact fees they went for (aka I'm too lazy to find out) but I doubt we saw a £1million and whilst none of them would have gone on to be top players or club icons, they are all solid players who could have been given more of a platform to advertise their talents at a time when the first team in general wasn't performing or was suffering from injuries. We should have been looking to realise at least around the £5mil mark for those 5 players IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 I think the club sometimes try to do what's best for the lad too. I mean Wallace could have been worth £500,000 but Tranmere probably wouldn't have been able to afford him. Either keep him, he won't play anyway, or let him go and give the kid a chance to make it. To be honest, I think it's quite admirable. A lot of lower league clubs can't spare £100,000 on a kid who might not make it, but if it gives a kid a chance of getting a good career out of the game we can afford to lose a possible transfer fee. I'm sure we get sell on fee's. Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 I think the club sometimes try to do what's best for the lad too. I mean Wallace could have been worth £500,000 but Tranmere probably wouldn't have been able to afford him. Either keep him, he won't play anyway, or let him go and give the kid a chance to make it. To be honest, I think it's quite admirable. A lot of lower league clubs can't spare £100,000 on a kid who might not make it, but if it gives a kid a chance of getting a good career out of the game we can afford to lose a possible transfer fee. I'm sure we get sell on fee's. I wish I could believe in such altruism, but we're talking about businesses here. You can't make decisions like this without considering the financial implications. If a smaller team cannot afford the fee, maybe a loan deal is more appropriate. Sell-on fees, of course, are another option. A good youth program, for a club like Everton, could become a solid form of revenue as players are sold elsewhere. To give that up in the name of "doing the right thing", while laudable, would be unsustainable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 23, 2013 Report Share Posted July 23, 2013 I think the club sometimes try to do what's best for the lad too. I mean Wallace could have been worth £500,000 but Tranmere probably wouldn't have been able to afford him. Either keep him, he won't play anyway, or let him go and give the kid a chance to make it. To be honest, I think it's quite admirable. A lot of lower league clubs can't spare £100,000 on a kid who might not make it, but if it gives a kid a chance of getting a good career out of the game we can afford to lose a possible transfer fee. I'm sure we get sell on fee's. Yeh I think they do but unfortunately admirable but its not really something a club like us can afford to keep doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted July 24, 2013 Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 (edited) I wish I could believe in such altruism, but we're talking about businesses here. You can't make decisions like this without considering the financial implications. If a smaller team cannot afford the fee, maybe a loan deal is more appropriate. Sell-on fees, of course, are another option. A good youth program, for a club like Everton, could become a solid form of revenue as players are sold elsewhere. To give that up in the name of "doing the right thing", while laudable, would be unsustainable. To be honest, I don't care if you believe in it or not, it happens. Obviously if a player is looking like he will make it at Everton then they won't release him. If they release a player for free with say 20% of any sell of fee, if the kid blooms they get some money back. If the kid doesn't make it, we haven't paid his contract out while he fails. It's a win win win for EFC, the player himself, and the club who take him on. Yeh I think they do but unfortunately admirable but its not really something a club like us can afford to keep doing. It's not a new thing Bailey, it's gone on for years. We clearly can afford it. We are not talking massive returns here, we are talking minimal loss on a small asset, that could turn into a future profit. Edited July 24, 2013 by StevO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Posted July 24, 2013 Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 It's not a new thing Bailey, it's gone on for years. We clearly can afford it. We are not talking massive returns here, we are talking minimal loss on a small asset, that could turn into a future profit. Yeh I know its not a recent thing and I understand why they have done it, especially on players who dont have long to run on their contract. However in the likes of Baxter, Wallace, Ruddy Muatafi and Hammar especially we have players who have a decent level of ability and I thibk the majority were released on a free or left for peanuts. If we improve the way we develop the youngsters we can start seeing a return from these types of players rather than just letting them go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted July 24, 2013 Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 I though Baxter and Wallace were out of contract and left because they turned down new ones?? Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted July 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 I though Baxter and Wallace were out of contract and left because they turned down new ones?? Baxter did but Wallace still had some time left (I think) and we sold him for a minimal fee but included a massive sell-on fee so that we could either get him back cheaply or make money on him when/if he eventually fulfills his potential and Tranmere sell him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted July 24, 2013 Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 Yeh I know its not a recent thing and I understand why they have done it, especially on players who dont have long to run on their contract. However in the likes of Baxter, Wallace, Ruddy Muatafi and Hammar especially we have players who have a decent level of ability and I thibk the majority were released on a free or left for peanuts. If we improve the way we develop the youngsters we can start seeing a return from these types of players rather than just letting them go. Completely agree we need to develop them more. I think martinez will show a different approach to the young players coming through. It'll be interesting to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted July 24, 2013 Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 Baxter did but Wallace still had some time left (I think) and we sold him for a minimal fee but included a massive sell-on fee so that we could either get him back cheaply or make money on him when/if he eventually fulfills his potential and Tranmere sell him. Didn't he also turn down a contract with us though? Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted July 24, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 Didn't he also turn down a contract with us though? He may have, I can't remember, but he did still have a contract with us at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c1982 Posted July 24, 2013 Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 He may have, I can't remember, but he did still have a contract with us at the time. He could have extended his time here but chose to pursue 1st team football - fair play to him! Moore admitted there's an option for him to return to us in an interview. Shame he got injured last season as he was looking very bright and was much to do with Tranmere's early season form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted July 24, 2013 Report Share Posted July 24, 2013 Obviously if a player is looking like he will make it at Everton then they won't release him. If they release a player for free with say 20% of any sell of fee, if the kid blooms they get some money back. If the kid doesn't make it, we haven't paid his contract out while he fails. It's a win win win for EFC, the player himself, and the club who take him on. You will have a better understanding than I about what has happened in the past. What I'm suggesting is that there should be a clear strategy behind the youth program in order to squeeze every pound from it - both in terms of players joining the senior team and in terms of making money. In effect, that's what you've defined - knowing when to release a player and for how much, etc. Right now, RM is suggesting that there's something of a hole in the process whereby there's insufficient follow-through to help transition players from youth to first team. Another way to put it is that we invest when they are young but don't see the financial return that we could. The youth program could become a nice source of revenue - the reason why companies invest in anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romey 1878 Posted July 27, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 (edited) http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-fc-manager-roberto-martinez-5373134? The club also confirmed that previous manager David Moyes had been reluctant for Everton to join clubs such as Inter Milan, Barcelona and Liverpool in the tournament. Interesting tidbit there. Lack of faith in our youth from Moyes? Edited July 27, 2013 by Romey 1878 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimonButtle Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-fc-manager-roberto-martinez-5373134? Interesting tidbit there. Lack of faith in our youth from Moyes? You will get in trouble for saying that Mark. Lowensda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-fc-manager-roberto-martinez-5373134? Interesting tidbit there. Lack of faith in our youth from Moyes? Reserve football is very good for a young player for the first six months but after that I dont think it has the stimulation that a young player needs to develop" Blimey this fella is impressive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sideliner Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 great link there Romey , with great ideas - common sense really - should have happened long ago - good read for any football supporter interested in youth development efc1111 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcopaulo Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 Reserve football is very good for a young player for the first six months but after that I dont think it has the stimulation that a young player needs to develop" Blimey this fella is impressive. do we have a ring licking smiley? SimonButtle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted July 27, 2013 Report Share Posted July 27, 2013 do we have a ring licking smiley? It's probably in the archives with the Moyes is infallible smiley. marcopaulo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcirony Posted July 29, 2013 Report Share Posted July 29, 2013 Just been reflecting on this... Didn't Martinez try and sign John Stones when he was at Wigan?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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