Matt Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 You're probably right! I notice it each time Im over, because everything is so spread out (not to mention some of the cities are not designed for travelling on foot, and theres nearly no real public transport to speak off for the most part) it becomes essential to drive everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Build it and they will come! Where have I heard that before? Has anyone put together the business case? Would the line pay for itself, and repay the investment, on non-game days? I'd feel 99% certain that the business case for the city investing in a new stadium would be better than any investment in a rail line. You need to understand the economics of rail. The book Wheels of Fortune is a good starter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 (edited) John, I never understand the argument for public transportation. Politicians call for it all the time, but everyday people almost always prefer to take a car. I've seen that happen time and again. Much better that the local authorities invest in better roads and adequate parking. Still, if a business case proves me wrong, I'd be only too pleased. But, again, experience around the world shows that cities should invest in stadiums before public transportation, because the business case is much stronger. There is some merit in the argument for city investment, but the economics imply the investment should be in the stadium, not in a new rail line. As mentioned before, the new tax revenue and the new jobs would justify such an investment in the stadium itself - and in public parking around the stadium. Understand how big successful cities work. They are centred on mass/rapid transit rail networks. Without such networks they die. Liverpool was laid out for a population of over 2.5 million. The country is expanding. The city can take the strain easily. But it needs the mass transit network expanded to succeed. Liverpool's mass transit network is the second largest in the country connecting to mainline terminal stations at Lime St, South Parkway, Chester and Southport. The east of the city was not merged with the central underground section when work was stopped on the metro in the late 1970s. Hence why rail does not serve EFC and LFC well. The network will easily take 3 million trips a year on newly reopened lines and take countless vehicle trips off the road contributing to far less nuisance and also the clean eco aspect. Also the kudo to visitors to the city. We have one that awaiting for reuse that benefits all. This is not a pie in the sky notion. It is there. The city has a mass transit network and it is all there. Funding for such projects come from mainly the Dpt for Transport but they may expect the clubs to contribute to stadia station build costs - extra platforms, etc. After all, both clubs will be sending a minimum of 3 million trips to the network so their contribution will be minimal, but as they stand to gain greatly they would be expected to pay something. Arsenal were to contribute to expanding one of the local stations, but so far have paid nothing. If EFC & LFC want to build in existing districts they have no alternative but to insist the city and Dept of Transport open up metro lines. There are few places to park cars. We should be dissuading people from using cars. Edited September 20, 2014 by John Burns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Because its convenient, flexible and sometimes cheaper. But if the public transport was properly invested in and prices made reasonable, people would use the services more. Pay back for the investment would then take longer, meaning less desire to implement. Well connected mass/rapid transit networks create economic growth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 I don't know the Stanley Park area, so let's take someone in Cornwall wanting to visit the only local team, Plymouth Argyle. The Liverpool City Region is very different to Cornwall/Devon. But if Plymouth Argyle had a direct rail station with directly connected from all towns around it would attract far more fans for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 As someone who lives on the side of a mountain, I understand the inconvenience of public transport, or at least I would if the Swiss hadn't made such a damn good job of it. The way they structured the train line and bus routes for example, means I can get pretty much anywhere with a 15m walk of a station/stop. The initial reasoning for the network? The ski centre behind us, which is used rarely most of the year. They designed the network in such a way that it is useful on a day to day use but also service its main goal. It just take a little creativity The trackbeds are in place and near WHP and run through disenfranchised districts that need a leg up economically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 It would be in general a massive help to the City by conquering the North/South divide. You'd have to make the old tracks into trams for the council to pull their finger out though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 (edited) It would be in general a massive help to the City by conquering the North/South divide. You'd have to make the old tracks into trams for the council to pull their finger out though. Trams cannot shift enough people fast. 6 car trains will hold around 900 people. Expanding the exiting mass transit network to near enough the original plans is the answer. We must use it. The city will be better integrated and the north-south divide will diminish. Edited May 15, 2014 by John Burns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete0 Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Trams cannot shift enough people fast. 6 car trains will hold around 900 people. Expanding the exiting mass transit network to near enough the original plans is the answer. We must use it. The city will be better integrated and the north-south divide will diminish. Councils are punch-drunk on trams, feck knows why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 The Liverpool City Region is very different to Cornwall/Devon. But if Plymouth Argyle had a direct rail station with directly connected from all towns around it would attract far more fans for sure. You don't know Plymouth Argyle!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 But we're talking now about something much bigger than making it convenient to get to a new stadium. The use of cars, buses, and parking (even if buses must run between stadium and parking) is a much more practical solution in the short-term. If the city really wants to create economic growth, invest in a new stadium! Once the additional tax revenues kick in, the funds will be there to expand other forms of transportation. Looking at it from the outside, I'd say that the city's investment in a new stadium is the first sensible step in revitalizing the area. By all means have a grand vision for the future in which to couch the argument, but don't link that to Everton's need right now for a new stadium - because it will never happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 Well connected mass/rapid transit networks create economic growth. depending on the area. The trackbeds are in place and near WHP and run through disenfranchised districts that need a leg up economically. if its that straight red line you've eluded too then its rather inflexible Trams cannot shift enough people fast. 6 car trains will hold around 900 people. Expanding the exiting mass transit network to near enough the original plans is the answer. We must use it. The city will be better integrated and the north-south divide will diminish. I think its Berlin where the trams use the same lines as the trains, depending on the area and time or day. Having a 6 car train is great for match days but a waste of energy when theres 20 people using it to get around, depending on the time of day. I think if you could create a hybrid time table where trams are used mostly (cheaper, more efficient) and then a train for match days, it makes more sense. Would require a study of how many people use a train vs time of day vs location Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 (edited) Councils are punch-drunk on trams, feck knows why? Because HMG was giving money for them. The ROI is poor so trams are now a no, no, especially after Edinburgh debacle. Edited May 17, 2014 by John Burns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 (edited) If the city really wants to create economic growth, invest in a new stadium! You need transport to get planning permission. The Dept for Transport pays. You need to justify opening the lines. Edited May 17, 2014 by John Burns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 I get it. Nothing can be done without government of some sort having to get involved. Progress is stifled, which is a shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 (edited) I get it. Nothing can be done without government of some sort having to get involved. Progress is stifled, which is a shame. The clubs have been doing this stadium thing for decades. More than enough time to sort mass transit matters out involving all bodies concerned. Edited May 16, 2014 by John Burns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 (edited) depending on the area. if its that straight red line you've eluded too then its rather inflexible I think its Berlin where the trams use the same lines as the trains, depending on the area and time or day. Having a 6 car train is great for match days but a waste of energy when theres 20 people using it to get around, depending on the time of day. I think if you could create a hybrid time table where trams are used mostly (cheaper, more efficient) and then a train for match days, it makes more sense. Would require a study of how many people use a train vs time of day vs location Tram-trains can be useful when they run on streets and track, as per Manchester. In Liverpool the fast metro outer lines converge on the centre and then run underground, as per London, etc. In Manchester the lines stay on the surface with tram-trains crawling through the centre's streets mixing with surface traffic. Mass/rapid transit is superior when segregated from other traffic - trams are not. Manchester's trams are two cars long. Not mass transit. Liverpool has a north-south crossrail in the Northern Line. The line runs from Hunts X in the south, under the city centre and up to either Southport, Kirkby or Ormskirk. An east-west crossrail is easily done by running trains from any Wirral Merseyrail terminal station, under the city centre, to St.Helens or Wigan, if the disused 1829 Wapping Tunnel from Central station to Edge Hill is reused. Work was started on recommissioning this tunnel but abandoned. It is the first tunnel ever bored under a metropolis. And if used the oldest used rail tunnel in the world. Liverpool's six car mass transit trains are reduced to 3 cars during the day. You are right it is not economical to run six car trains near empty. In Liverpool they can make one or two car trains if the reduced need is there. Higher frequency of trains services makes a metro popular as few like waiting. Having more one or two car trains (driverless as in London's Dockands as drivers are expensive), coming every few minutes make a metro work better for the city. People hop on and off at will. For stadia, each stadium could have its own 6 platform station (use two platforms normally) running six car trains on match days. After games nearly 6,000 can be shifted immediately with the trains at the platforms waiting. Five minutes later another 6,000 can be shifted. Within 40 minutes 25,000-30,000 can be shifted away from the stadium. If a stadium is on the Outer Loop, trains may run around the loop easily and not switch back at terminals wasting time. Melbourne has a loop and can run two separate sports venues simultaneously and shift the fans easily. Liverpool has the infrastructure in place awaiting use. The straight red line on the picture I posted of the eastern section of the Outer Loop crosses the lines coming in from St.Helens and Wigan. An interchange station can be built at this point. It also runs to Hunts X and South Parkway station and can run to the airport if the line is extended across fields from Halewoood station, past EFCs training ground at Finch Farm. The Loop also easily runs into the city centre via Kirkdale. Edited May 20, 2014 by John Burns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ant1979 Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 I was at a conference through work the other day and one of the speakers was the club's Facilities Manager, Richard Cairns I think his name was. He said that the club would hope to have an absolute maximum of 10 years left at Goodison. Not remotely saying this is 'inside information' or anything, I'm sure the club probably said the same thing 10 years ago! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 It can't go on forever something eventually has to give. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornish Steve Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 It can't go on forever something eventually has to give. Let's just hope it's not an upper stand while people are there. What I read earlier about some fans of other teams deliberately stomping to make parts of the stadium shake was rather disconcerting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC11 Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 Sitting in the top balcony I've always had this on my mind - the stand does seem to flex when everyone is going wild. Surely there must be safety checks done on a monthly basis? Heard the bullens is worse! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted May 20, 2014 Report Share Posted May 20, 2014 Right, let's get creative. We build 5,000 parking spaces at the new ground. You don't have it open to just anyone on a match day, you sell season tickets for the car park. £150 a season, works out about £7-8 per game. That's £750,000 a season. And only a couple of quid more than the local car parks already charge. Between a couple of people, that could be a very reasonable charge. And same space each game. Less hassle and confusion. Job done, let's build this thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted May 20, 2014 Report Share Posted May 20, 2014 Sitting in the top balcony I've always had this on my mind - the stand does seem to flex when everyone is going wild. Surely there must be safety checks done on a monthly basis? Heard the bullens is worse! Gets really unnerving sometimes! When they say "the Old Lady is rocking", they're talking about the foundations and structure more than the noise! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hafnia Posted May 20, 2014 Report Share Posted May 20, 2014 Pretty certain that kenwright said we would fail our saftey certifacate years ago which is why we needed Kirby.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 (edited) "Everton Chief Executive Officer Robert Elstone has said the club are working really hard on a new stadium and says it is a really high priority over the next six to twelve month to bring it to fruition. Speaking to Greg O’Keefe in the Liverpool Echo Elstone has said that the club will rely on help from the local council and also the public sector to help fund the stadium and that they are optimistic that they can deliver.“The stadium will continue to be something of really high priority. There is optimism that we will deliver it. There clearly is one site we’re doing a lot of work on and if things fall in the right way and we get commercial success; bringing on board support from the local authority and the public sector then we can be hopeful.“The next six to 12 months on that will be really important for us. It will be exciting if we can bring it to fruition; there’s lots of hard work but that’s how you want it.”" http://www.theevertonforum.co.uk/robert-elstone-the-new-stadium-is-high-priority-over-the-next-12-months/ We have heard all that before. No mention of a site they are working on. The site has to be right as that will make or brake the stadium. A poor site will mean poor income from the stadium. Revenues has to be maximized. The site needs to be on the mass rapid transit Merseyrail network to be a success. The stadium needs to have space to expand if the need is there and the structure have expansion designed in. This also means great convenience for the city as a whole reducing the nuisance value of the stadium. Edited June 21, 2014 by John Burns Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevO Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 Tell us about mass rail John. I don't think I've heard about that before. Oh wait, every post is about mass rail. If you are really that passionate about it and believe in it, have you tried to contact the club to give them your views? MC11 and Matt 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oztoffee Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 Just as a thought, perhaps we should have a show of hands on here as to where folks think would be the ideal position for a stadium and why? Forget Goodison of course. Havn't been down there since the early70's but there were acres and acres (and acres) of land covered with derelict factories and warehouses down the riverside of Scotland Road and along the waterfront area basically all the way to Bankhall and Oriel Rd in Bootle and beyond. Surely there is still so much of the same sort of space available if not there then elsewhere in the region that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg to buy. What are your thoughts as to where and why? Let's not get caught up in finances, this is just to find out where folks would prefer to have a new stadium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanmckenzieismagic Posted June 22, 2014 Report Share Posted June 22, 2014 Just as a thought, perhaps we should have a show of hands on here as to where folks think would be the ideal position for a stadium and why? Forget Goodison of course. Havn't been down there since the early70's but there were acres and acres (and acres) of land covered with derelict factories and warehouses down the riverside of Scotland Road and along the waterfront area basically all the way to Bankhall and Oriel Rd in Bootle and beyond. Surely there is still so much of the same sort of space available if not there then elsewhere in the region that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg to buy. What are your thoughts as to where and why? Let's not get caught up in finances, this is just to find out where folks would prefer to have a new stadium. The ideal place would have been on the waterfront where the Echo Arena is but we missed that opportunity , Walton Hall Park is fine by me though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest John Burns Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Tell us about mass rail John. I don't think I've heard about that before. Oh wait, every post is about mass rail. If you have heard it before then I would expect you to understand something so simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 If you have heard it before then I would expect you to understand something so simple. Its not that we dont understand, John. What do you expect us to do? You keep repeating the same thing over and over on here, and for the most part we agree. You ignored the question again : Have you contacted the club about all this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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