Kopite Thread

[Lowensda]

Waited just long enough so that the inconsistency argument couldn't be used

[Guest blueboy122]

Waited just long enough so that the inconsistency argument couldn't be used

Over 10 games?

[Romey 1878]

Over 10 games?

 

 

Tbf, he's just carrying on from his top form of last season, showing it wasn't a fluke.

[Lowensda]

Aha just can't admit that he's a decent player.

 

Current record;

Man City - played 21, scored 5.

Chelsea - played 63, scored 13 (used as a sub & out of position)

Bolton - played 12, scored 8

Liverpoo- played 23, scored 18

 

He's just NOT, in any context of the word, shit.

[Lowensda]

 

Tbf, he's just carrying on from his top form of last season, showing it wasn't a fluke.

That was my point

[Matt]

Aha just can't admit that he's a decent player.

 

Current record;

Man City - played 21, scored 5.

Chelsea - played 63, scored 13 (used as a sub & out of position)

Bolton - played 12, scored 8

Liverpoo- played 23, scored 18

 

He's just NOT, in any context of the word, shit.

119 games, 44 goals - 1 in 3 is a damn good ratio to date, but if you take out his appearances/goals for Liverpool, hes an average striker with roughly 1 in 4 (96 games, 26 goals).

 

No, hes not shit, and hes playing very well for them. But before his move to them lot, he was average.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Matt

[pete0]

Invisible man for the majority of most matches. Gets his goal, but his movement/presence doesn't cut the mustard compared to top poachers like Hernandez and Owen.

[Lowensda]

But why would you take out Liverpool appearances? If. Anything you take out Chelsea's as he never started or lasted 90 mins?.

 

Bolton - Main Striker

Liverpool - Main Striker (of 2)

Man City - Bit part

Chelsea - Cup game player (scored when started)

 

Which would be 39 goals from 56 starts. Not bad at all.

[Matt]

But why would you take out Liverpool appearances? If. Anything you take out Chelsea's as he never started or lasted 90 mins?.

 

Bolton - Main Striker

Liverpool - Main Striker (of 2)

Man City - Bit part

Chelsea - Cup game player (scored when started)

 

Which would be 39 goals from 56 starts. Not bad at all.

because people were saying, in the quotes you mentioned, that he was shit before the Liverpool appearances

Edited October 29, 2013 by Matt

[Lowensda]

Fair enough, valid point.

 

The argument that he couldn't get into the Chelsea first time, which is why he's shit, wasn't a justifiable reasoning based on his actual ability.

Edited October 29, 2013 by tenaciousj

[Guest blueboy122]

Couldn't really careless. We have Lukaku till June!

[Guest blueboy122]

Fair enough, valid point.

The argument that he couldn't get into the Chelsea first time, which is why he's shit, wasn't a justifiable reasoning based on his actual ability.

At the time he was, Chelsea were playing midfielders in the forward position because he was that bad, weak, not particularly rapid, can't finish etc. I'll admit at the moment he is looking good but it won't laśt, he is playing with confidence as are the Liverpool team but I am not particularly worried about them to be honest.

[Guest blueboy122]

Invisible man for the majority of most matches. Gets his goal, but his movement/presence doesn't cut the mustard compared to top poachers like Hernandez and Owen.

Same thinking as me Pete, he is going through the Jelly stage where everything is going for him, when it doesn't start dropping for him, defenders get wise to his Cryuff turns etc. then we will see how good he is.

[Guest Nikica]

On The Sturridge debate, he's both overrated and underrated imo. He's overrated in the sense that his current level is probably something he won't be able to maintain, but he's underrated in that he's a better actual footballer than people give him credit for. People say he's just a finisher, but I think he's actually a talented footballer too - great close control, great at turning with the ball, an eye for a long pass (when it's on, not every two minutes a la Stevie Me), two good feet and he's pretty tricky. I think because he's been a very selfish player over the years people assume that he can't play football. But he's becoming more of a team player now. He wouldn't link up so well with Suarez (and before that Coutinho) if he wasn't a talented footballer.

 

Man United fans talk about how Welbeck is a better 'footballer' than Sturridge, but for me that's nonsense: Welbeck has a poor first touch, lacks close control, often falls over his own feet and is more of a kick and run dribbler than a weaver like Sturridge. I don't rate Welbeck in the slightest though and consider Sturridge the better footballer and finisher.

 

I'm not saying Sturridge is a world beater or anything, because I don't think he'll ever be world-class. But as far as English players go he's pretty fucking good imo. I like him and did at Chelsea too. On that debate, it's not fair to say that not starting for Chelsea proved he was a poor player - lots of quality players can't get a game for one reason or another. This is especially true at Chelsea. New manager now of course, but their best player can't even get in the team and they sent Lukaku on loan again (for which you are very grateful). Then you've got clubs like Real Madrid who spend a world record fee on a player who is at his best in the position Ronaldo plays, and then sell a much better footballer (but lesser athlete and shirt seller) for half the price.

 

My point is that football clubs and managers often do daft things. Whenever Sturridge did get a game for Chelsea the potential was there to see, he was just too selfish. That's being coached out of him now at Liverpool. He's a very talented footballer imo, and comparing him to poachers who can't actually play football and whose second touch is a tackle (e.g. Hernandez is mentioned above) is very unfair imo.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Nikica

[Guest Nikica]

I do think he has a point to be fair to him.

 

Before he came to the Prem, folk were already angry about his handball in the World Cup, which I found quite pathetic, as had it been against Argentina, nobody would have cared, but because it was against a lowly African side, it was big news.

 

The fiasco regarding racism is another sore point.

 

Anti Racism is something that has developed in the Western world, and I agree totally that colour of skin, or religion etc, should not cloud the perception of anybody as an individual person, but these are 'our' values, and those values are clearly not shared in other countries. Football is a 'world' game, and we can't expect to enforce our values on players from across the globe and expect them to conform overnight. I'm pretty sure if we moved to an Islamic country we would find their culture very different, and might hope for a little leniency should we make a mistake as a foreign national.

 

The same applies to what we call cheating. Foreign players are actually coached to cheat from an early age. Our stiff upper lip is also hypocritical, as there are plenty of home grown players who have cheated, be it diving, dirty tackling, elbowing, feigning injury, hand ball, and so on.

 

If you have ever played football, you will know that players do lots of crazy shit to put you off your game, from personal insult, to pinching. Biting is an extreme example, but it's not like he put the guys arm in a salad bap and added mayonnaise.

 

If the press like you, you will rise to the top of the public admiration pile, but if they have it in for you, you will be disliked, such is the gullibility of society, ever since one guy shouted "Witch" and the rest shouted "Burn her".

 

I'm not saying he isn't a right pain in the arse, but he is one of many, highlighted more often.

 

Just been reading through the thread (was looking to see more on the Sturridge debate due to the quotes Tenacious posted) and I have to say that this is a brilliant post. I realise that not hating Suarez on here will be like shitting in someone's coffee, but I really don't think he's any worse than lots of others. I genuinely believe the racism thing got well out of hand and a very important issue became a game of one upmanship in the comparatively petty United-Liverpool rivalry. Let's bear in mind also that the other person in that incident was Evra - one of the biggest on the field twats in football, who ironically bullied Gourcuff at the World Cup because he was more well-off and educated than some of the other players - how's that for being prejudiced? Not that someone deserves to be a victim of racial abuse for that, but given Evra's character I truly believe he embellished the facts. He called Suarez a 'sudaco' didn't he? Are pejoratives based on nationality excusable now? He's certainly no better on the park than Suarez is, at least. The whole handshake thing was a joke as well considering Evra deliberately lowered his hand. Ferguson probably told him to do that bearing in mind what a cunt the old man is. The Ghana thing was unreal - I'd have done the exact same thing, and he didn't even have time to think about it. I actually admire him for doing that, although he should have went straight down the tunnel rather than celebrating Gyan's miss. That part was classless.

 

Suarez has done some pathetic things, such as some of his tackles at Ajax and biting Ivan, and he's certainly a problem individual, but the scapegoating and vilifying of him has been unreal. At Man United themselves, you've had Cantona, Keane, Giggs, Rooney, Elbows Van Persie, Young, Welbeck, Van Nistelrooy, Scholes etc. Some excellent players (and Young and Welbeck), but an assortment of players who've cheated, handballed, dived, deliberately injured opponents, surrounded refs and kicked fans. Then you have Rio missing drugs tests, Giggs's off the field behaviour and Beckham's narcissism. At Chelsea they have the likes of Cole, Terry, Ivanovic etc.

 

Just compare the reactions to Terry abusing Anton and Suarez and Evra. Terry's was clearly far worse, and there's no culture barrier there, but England's brave lion got away relatively lightly from the media. They were getting on their high horse about Suarez but condoning an Englishman being racist over a foreigner - how's that for irony and xenophobia? A bit like the people who condemn Suarez but probably think Prince Philip is a barrel of laughs. I mean you have British people - some of the biggest racists (until recently) and colonialists, home to the biggest, bloodiest empire the world has ever seen - now thinking we are in a position to lecture the rest of the world on tolerance simply because we've cleaned our act up slightly over the last half century. It's mental.

 

My overall point is that, yes, Suarez is a tit on the park and has done some reprehensible things. However, he's become a scapegoat and an easy target. He doesn't help himself but given that he has no history of degenerate behaviour off the field, perhaps he just loses it when he enters the park? No condoning that at all, but there's plenty as bad as him on the pitch as well as loads who are far, far worse off it. It's become a witchhunt.

 

As far as Liverpool players go I find him far less odious a character than Stevie Me. Not that that's a great endorsement for anyone but the point remains.

 

I expect to cop some abuse for this post but I stand by it.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Nikica

[Avinalaff]

You write very well Nikica and keep things interesting throughout. I will have to kidnap you and chain you to my website as my weekly residential blogger.

 

Are you an Everton fan or a Liverpool fan?

[Guest Nikica]

You write very well Nikica and keep things interesting throughout. I will have to kidnap you and chain you to my website as my weekly residential blogger.

 

Are you an Everton fan or a Liverpool fan?

 

Thanks mate. At times I spot occasional grammatical errors in my posts e.g. I could phrase things differently at times, but as I tend to write such long posts (as well as the fact that I often multi-task) I don't often bother trying to make things 100% perfect. I generally sort typos but not any sentence structure issues. University essays are different, but on informal forums I believe content is more important than perfect presentation (although the latter is important). I'd rather keep the conversation flowing than spend 10 minutes making my posts flawless.

 

Rangers fan mate. Just a big fan of football as a neutral. As far as Liverpool and Everton go I have no preference, but I do despise Gerrard and always have.

 

By the way, I realise that I defend Suarez v Ghana and then castigate Man United players for 'handball' above. I know this could be considered hypocritical, but I'm referring more to the circumstances than the actual act. If my country was playing a World Cup QF I've had did the same thing. Obviously we'd prefer it not to happen, but it wasn't premeditated and it was a huge game.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Nikica

[Sibdane]

I could honestly care less about Suarez as long as we beat him and his Liverpool when we meet them head-to-head. I'm mainly just sick of hearing about him. Football is full of cheats now anyway; sometimes it's unbearable, but it's always expected.

 

However, one of the reasons my heart belongs to Everton is because I feel we have a proper attitude when it comes to gamesmanship.

[Avinalaff]

I was reading the RAWK forum last night and questioned how they felt our players wouldn't get into the top 6 sides in the league. I'm fine with an opinion of our players, but was curious as to how they came to discount Everton as a top 6 team, yet include themselves, despite finishing 7th and 8th in the last 2 seasons.

[Guest Nikica]

I could honestly care less about Suarez as long as we beat him and his Liverpool when we meet them head-to-head. I'm mainly just sick of hearing about him. Football is full of cheats now anyway; sometimes it's unbearable, but it's always expected.

 

However, one of the reasons my heart belongs to Everton is because I feel we have a proper attitude when it comes to gamesmanship.

 

That's my point mate, although I said it in a round-about way. Most players these days are cheating cunts so why we hear so much about Suarez I'm not sure - the negative attention he receives is not proportional to his acts - he's hardly a sinner amongst saints. I know I'm perpetuating things by debating this point about him though - that's the irony of it. I just feel someone needs to say it because some of the press coverage seems tantamount to bullying.

 

 

I was reading the RAWK forum last night and questioned how they felt our players wouldn't get into the top 6 sides in the league. I'm fine with an opinion of our players, but was curious as to how they came to discount Everton as a top 6 team, yet include themselves, despite finishing 7th and 8th in the last 2 seasons.

 

I said before the season that I had a feeling you might finish above them. I still think there's not much difference in quality between the two teams. I guess Suarez is their ace in the hole but then Lukaku is well on his way to being a world-class striker himself. I can't remember what day the Merseyside derby is but I hope it doesn't clash with a Rangers game as I'm very intrigued as to how it will pan oot.

 

I actually have a few questions I'd like to ask regarding the relationship between Everton and Liverpool (more of a looking for confirmation of what I think is the case, really), but now isn't really the time as I'm a bit busy at the moment. It really all boils down to the view that the Merseyside derby is more civil and friendly than most derbies, albeit it has become more bitter in the Sky era. I may be completely wrong about that, but I always got the feeling that blues and reds were generally the best of friends, and that the ideal scenario would be for both clubs to be by far the best two teams in English football a la the 80s. Whereas (for example) in the past I'd rather Celtic crashed than finished second to us every season.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Nikica

[Sibdane]

 

That's my point mate, although I said it in a round-about way. Most players these days are cheating cunts so why we hear so much about Suarez I'm not sure - the negative attention he receives is not proportional to his acts - he's hardly a sinner amongst saints. I know I'm perpetuating things by debating this point about him though - that's the irony of it. I just feel someone needs to say it because some of the press coverage seems tantamount to bullying.

 

I agree with you that the cheating he does is no different from most players, but I will say It seems to me that Suarez complains a lot more than most players when he doesn't get his way -- similar to Ronaldo with his on-field attitude, though Ronaldo's is significantly better now than it was when he played for ManU. He also reminds me a bit of Balotelli in that no matter what he does he'll always be on the negative end of the spectrum because of the way he carries himself.

 

Going back to the handball, I have to agree with you again. I could honestly see myself doing the same thing as a reaction rather than a purposeful intent to cheat. When that much emotion is on the line and with what was at stake at the time, your adrenaline is bound to take over your body. I've always considered myself a good sport, but I can't really fault what he did, and he was given the proper punishment according to the rules of the game.

 

I think the game needs players like Suarez. It makes it more fun to watch and creates the superhero/villain vibe for me. Most see Suarez as the villain and most like to see the villain lose out to the hero, so that's another reason why I would say he gets a bit more stick.

[Guest Nikica]

 

I agree with you that the cheating he does is no different from most players, but I will say It seems to me that Suarez complains a lot more than most players when he doesn't get his way -- similar to Ronaldo with his on-field attitude, though Ronaldo's is significantly better now than it was when he played for ManU. He also reminds me a bit of Balotelli in that no matter what he does he'll always be on the negative end of the spectrum because of the way he carries himself.

 

Going back to the handball, I have to agree with you again. I could honestly see myself doing the same thing as a reaction rather than a purposeful intent to cheat. When that much emotion is on the line and with what was at stake at the time, your adrenaline is bound to take over your body. I've always considered myself a good sport, but I can't really fault what he did, and he was given the proper punishment according to the rules of the game.

 

I think the game needs players like Suarez. It makes it more fun to watch and creates the superhero/villain vibe for me. Most see Suarez as the villain and most like to see the villain lose out to the hero, so that's another reason why I would say he gets a bit more stick.

 

Yeah, fair point that he can be a whinger. I overlooked your excellent point about perceptions of players based on how they carry themselves - it makes a lot of sense actually regarding Balotelli and Suarez. The former is seen more as a lovable rogue by some whereas the latter isn't considered charismatic off the park, so the playful arrogance Balotelli exudes probably adds to his mystique - no pun intended given your reference to superheroes. As for said dynamic, you're right that there is a dichotomy at play: good/evil, light/dark, hero/villain. Unlike you though I am undecided as to whether it's a positive or negative in football. On one hand, it makes things more interesting outwith the game and hence increases interest in it. On the other, it seems to be more Sky influenced stuff which is making football more like a soap opera and encouraging players to behave like self-entitled tossers both on and off the park. However, I'm not naive enough to think that this is a new phenomenon in football - but its increasing prevalence certainly goes hand in hand with the game's capitalist spike. I guess you can argue from both perspectives.

 

As for Suarez himself, I'd consider him more as the classic 'anti-hero' rather than a villain, somewhat like the Punisher. The titular character in those comics is brutal, competitive and will do anything he has to do carry out his goals to the full, but he's also somewhat misunderstood as he believes he's fighting for a good cause (the root of which is a persecution complex). If we look at things psychologically from your 'supervillain vs superhero' concept, Suarez is similar to this: he's paranoid, he will do anything he has to to achieve his goals, and his actions are sometimes reprehensible, but when he's actually on the park (putting aside all the transfer stuff) he will do anything to win and believes he's doing things for the best for the team he's representing, even if he's in a sense embarrassing them with some of his antics. In this respect he'd be the Punisher, and Liverpool fans would be the civilians the Punisher has sworn to protect and fight for against those evil criminals (other teams in the league).

 

"and most like to see the villain lose out to the hero"

 

Not sure that applies as much these days. TV shows like the Sopranos and Breaking Bad have made us root for the villain (or antihero) more than ever before.

 

Sorry if that analogy doesn't make sense, but I'm a big comics guy and I found your final paragraph interesting and worth expounding on.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Nikica

[Matt]

I see him as a cheating cunt who ruins the game, and just because there are other cheats about, doesn't make it right. I don't care how talented he is, if he needs to cheat then it's a big mark down for me

Edited October 29, 2013 by Matt

[Guest Nikica]

I see him as a cheating cunt who ruins the game, and just because there are other cheats about, doesn't make it right. I don't care how talented he is, if he needs to cheat then it's a big mark down for me

 

That's not the point we're making though - the point is that he receives more criticism than those other 'cheating cunts'. If he wasn't singled out so much then that'd be fair - nobody is absolving him from blame due to him being far from the only one. The issue is that he's singled out more than others who are just as bad.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Nikica

[Matt]

 

That's not the point we're making though - the point is that he receives more criticism than those other 'cheating cunts'. If he wasn't singled out so much then that'd be fair - nobody is absolving him from blame due to him being far from the only one. The issue is that he's singled out more than others who are just as bad.

I understood the point being made, he just really irritates me

 

Im curious who else should come under the spot light in equal measures though. I cant think of many players who cheat as much as he does, and even less that completely avoid media scrutiny.

[Avinalaff]

I see him as a cheating cunt who ruins the game, and just because there are other cheats about, doesn't make it right. I don't care how talented he is, if he needs to cheat then it's a big mark down for me

 

Didn't Baines get carded recently for simulation? Jags won us a penalty a season or so ago with a dive. Phil Neville was the funniest diver of all, but it was still a dive. I don't think anybody says Suarez is the epitome of a sportsman, but because he is possibly the top striker in the game he gets noticed.

[Guest Nikica]

I understood the point being made, he just really irritates me

 

Im curious who else should come under the spot light in equal measures though. I cant think of many players who cheat as much as he does, and even less that completely avoid media scrutiny.

 

I understand. I'd probably hate him if he played for Celtic, football is tribal.

 

There's lots of players who are or have been as dicky as he on the pitch - Van Persie constantly elbows people. Tevez has hacked people, Vidic constantly fouls and tries to hurt people, Ronaldo in the past (but he's getting better as said above, Juve indiscretion aside), Keane doesn't even need to be mentioned, Terry is a dirty player, Fabregas and Gerrard try to referee the game, Robben is a whnging tit at times, loads of players diving etc. Behaviour like Suarez's is generally not seen as a big deal in South America - not that that means it should be condoned, but it gives you an insight into his outlook. It's all very well saying 'now he's in a foreign country he should adapt', but if it was that easy then numerous British players wouldn't fail when they go abroad. What Diego Costa said about "never being taught how to moderate my behaviour" (or words to that effect) is quite apt.

 

One point which was made which might be fair, is that lots of players have history of a particular character flaw, but not many combine multiple indiscretions as Suarez does e.g. he dives, is dirty, winds up opponents etc. I'm not sure I buy this logic but it's food for thought.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Nikica

[Sibdane]

 

 

"and most like to see the villain lose out to the hero"

 

Not sure that applies as much these days. TV shows like the Sopranos and Breaking Bad have made us root for the villain (or antihero) more than ever before.

 

Sorry if that analogy doesn't make sense, but I'm a big comics guy and I found your final paragraph interesting and worth expounding on.

 

Big fan of Breaking Bad -- I would counter that point but there are some on here who haven't seen the show, and I don't want to spoil the ending. I also can't comment on the Sopranos as I haven't had a chance to watch it yet.

 

I see what you're getting at though: Maybe "anti-hero" is the best way to describe him.

 

From the neutral's point-of-view, characters like Balotelli are fun to watch. I'm a neutral when it comes to Serie A clubs for the most part, so I'll usually be more inclined to view an AC Milan game in the hopes that I'll get to see some great "theater," be it goals or drama.

[Guest Nikica]

 

Big fan of Breaking Bad -- I would counter that point but there are some on here who haven't seen the show, and I don't want to spoil the ending. I also can't comment on the Sopranos as I haven't had a chance to watch it yet.

 

I see what you're getting at though: Maybe "anti-hero" is the best way to describe him.

 

From the neutral's point-of-view, characters like Balotelli are fun to watch. I'm a neutral when it comes to Serie A clubs for the most part, so I'll usually be more inclined to view an AC Milan game in the hopes that I'll get to see some great "theater," be it goals or drama.

 

Breaking Bad is the best show I've ever seen, with one caveat - I've yet to watch the Wire. The Sopranos is fantastic as well but I prefer BB.

 

Yeah, fair enough mate, characters do help the game in that sense. I am just cautious of it going too far that way and turning the game into an even bigger soap opera than it already is. It's a tough balancing act.

 

Going offline now but it's been an interesting discussion. Perhaps continue it with you all soon.

[Matt]

Didn't Baines get carded recently for simulation? Jags won us a penalty a season or so ago with a dive. Phil Neville was the funniest diver of all, but it was still a dive. I don't think anybody says Suarez is the epitome of a sportsman, but because he is possibly the top striker in the game he gets noticed.

they did and was angered by their actions

 

I understand. I'd probably hate him if he played for Celtic, football is tribal.

.

It's not really rivalry, I did t like him before he moved. I followed Ajax when I lived in Amsterdam and didn't really like him then. No doubt he is talented, I don't think anyone could argue that. I just hate it when the best cheat, more than lesser players cheat. There's just no need and it degrades the image of the game for me. Ronaldo is another prime example.