Has Martinez got it wrong?

[MC11]

Hou think? Because I haven't seen us create many at all most of the season which is the whole point.

Same here more so of late

[Blue 250]

Gutted last night, really disappointed, but it's gone now so we move on.....but!

 

Martinez!

 

He didn't invent overlapping full backs ie Baines and Coleman, that was Moyes, Coleman might well be better at it now than under Moyes but surely that's just natural progression.Just as Baines seems to be going slightly backwards.

Moyes developed the Baines Pienaar partnership which was at times brilliant and went hand in hand with on a fair few ocassions a really good passing game.....Martinez didn't bring to Everton a passing game it was already here, what Martinez has done though is bring us to a point where that's just about all we do is PASS the ball.

 

Moyes mixed it up a bit, could say had plan B, which at times was quite exciting...........but as the history books will tell you Everton just needed to move forward and so we come to Martinez.

 

I think he's just got to build into the training structure some long ball plans, anything instead of just sideways passing then back to Howard.

 

To listen to Steve Bruce out shouting the Goodison crowd last night telling his men to 'PUSH UP' ....and seeing it work, broke my friggin heart.

 

ps. To be honest McCarthy, Stones and Naismith are a big miss.

[MC11]

Gutted last night, really disappointed, but it's gone now so we move on.....but!

 

Martinez!

 

He didn't invent overlapping full backs ie Baines and Coleman, that was Moyes, Coleman might well be better at it now than under Moyes but surely that's just natural progression.Just as Baines seems to be going slightly backwards.

Moyes developed the Baines Pienaar partnership which was at times brilliant and went hand in hand with on a fair few ocassions a really good passing game.....Martinez didn't bring to Everton a passing game it was already here, what Martinez has done though is bring us to a point where that's just about all we do is PASS the ball.

 

Moyes mixed it up a bit, could say had plan B, which at times was quite exciting...........but as the history books will tell you Everton just needed to move forward and so we come to Martinez.

 

I think he's just got to build into the training structure some long ball plans, anything instead of just sideways passing then back to Howard.

 

To listen to Steve Bruce out shouting the Goodison crowd last night telling his men to 'PUSH UP' ....and seeing it work, broke my friggin heart.

 

ps. To be honest McCarthy, Stones and Naismith are a big miss.

Haf will be all over this. But it's very true. Moyes had us playing some good stuff. The two wing backs were pushing forward without Martinez ..... It's all true.

 

Spot on this post.

[Paddock]

Haf will be all over this. But it's very true. Moyes had us playing some good stuff. The two wing backs were pushing forward without Martinez ..... It's all true.

 

Spot on this post.

I'm with you as well. Moyes did have us playing some great football at times and he also knew how to shut up shop and mix things about.

 

Unfortunately it just seemed in the end the love affair he had with us had ran it's course. Personally I was gutted when he left, I also never wanted Martinez and I firmly believe last season was Moyes team with a new injection of life in them and a license to play with more freedom and that's the reason we did so well. I'll get slaughtered for this but I'm not arsed anyway but Moyes can take half he credit for last season. His beliefs were indoctrinated into that side and Martinez gave that team a lot of belief.

 

This and more importantly next season we will see the true reality and products of a Martinez team.

 

I still think my initial gut instinct is right. They say you should always stick with your gut instinct. Mine screamed no to Martinez and it still does.

[MC11]

I'm not completely unconvinced by him but... He is far from the finished article.. However he is/was on the right lines.

 

He just seems more reserved in games now. He doesn't seem to be as fearless as last season. It's the subs, his penchant to continuously field Osman and as pointed out by Romey his favourite players..... That's a Moyes trait

[Paddock]

I'm not completely unconvinced by him but... He is far from the finished article.. However he is/was on the right lines.

 

He just seems more reserved in games now. He doesn't seem to be as fearless as last season. It's the subs, his penchant to continuously field Osman and as pointed out by Romey his favourite players..... That's a Moyes trait

I'll tell you exactly why that is, it's bacause last season he had nothing to lose. We were in transition. Every fan wouuld of just accepted it if we had finished 8th -10th because no one expected anything but a decline so he could afford to be brash and bold, it didn't matter if he got a sub wrong or we conceded chasing a game. We rode our luck at times last season (not that there was anything wrong with that all clubs do it) and the players had the Moes shackles taken off him and were allowed to express themselves. His tactics and set ups were new to us, teams weren't sure exactly what to expect rom us after 10 years of Moyes way of playing things and all those factors together rode us on the crest of a wave and it was great.

 

New season and now the pressure is on. All of a sudden peole expect, the bar has been raised and now when he is making a sub he has to stop and think, it now matters if we start dropping points, he is being scrutinised his every move gets watched and judged. the freedom he had is now disappeared and he is all of a sudden under pressure to get results and that's making him either over think or shit out of a decision his instincts tell him to make and he is playing it safe. He's trying to play his best players all at once instead of just playing his best team.

 

All of a sudden the step of managing Wigan and their expectations are put into perspective to managing a team like Everton.

 

That's what I thinks wrong myself.

[Blue 250]

My above post wasn't ment to imply that Martinez isn't the man for Everton, I think/hope he is.

 

If this season we do really well in Europe but maybe learn a few harsh lessons in the prem (as we are doing) then maybe I can live with that.I'm sure he (Martinez) will (as he says himself) learn more from a defeat than from a victory.

 

He's soon going to realise what we have to change and I hope it's soon.Hull brought workrate to Goodison and it was good enough for a point.......................we've got some brilliant players, to be honest way more skillfull than Hulls, we just can't afford to be held or worse by any team we play who are prepared to out fight us.

 

Besic will bring steel, he's still getting used to the prem and Stones will soon displace Distln, Lukaku will get better and better likewise Ross.The pieces are there, Martinez just needs to get the puzzle right.

[EvertonianFL]

I didn't realize when I started supporting Everton in 2007 that the fans are so negative. I agree that we are not playing up to the standards set by RM last season. We also weren't playing midweek matches in Europe, and our tactics worked against most teams. Problem, is we haven't evolved much since last season. Same tiki taka style of play, but good teams (and even some poor ones) have countered by pressing high up the pitch and forcing the long ball over the top. I love Mirallas, but if he could ever make a run behind the center backs without going offside, we would have another tactical strategy.

 

That being said, we traveled to Tottenham on Sunday, then off to Germany for a Thursday game, then back home against Hull 3 days later. In the United States, we refer to the Hull match as a "trap game". A much better team in a good run of form (until Tottenham loss) losing (or in our case drawing...which felt like a loss) to a weaker team in a poor run of form.

 

I think having Ross Barkley get somewhat seriously injured on the eve of the 1st game of the season really threw the entire squad off mentally, and it showed with those 2 horrendous draws to Leicester and Arsenal.

 

All-in-all, we won the Europa League "Group of Death" with one game to spare. At the start of the season, if someone told you that would be the case, who would believe it....honestly? That ought to be a massive achievement for a club that bombed out last time we were in a European competition.

 

I agree though about playing the wrong players/those not in form...why hasn't RM played Atsu more. Kid is lightning quick down the wing, and showed off his skills during the World Cup. Surely he could be a boost for us...most certainly better than playing Pienaar, or Osman out wide.

 

We arguably have a top 5 goalkeeper in the world, some were saying even Top 3 after the World Cup, but maybe he should focus on stopping shots instead of writing his autobiography...because he hasn't been in good form (other than Europa League).

 

Lastly, I understand the need for urgency, especially when the League table is basically up for grabs (not the title...Chelsea should have that bagged by now). This would be the season to try and qualify for the Champions League. BUT, we are going to do it via the Europa League clearly, because short of signing a couple more squad players in January, we are not going to be anywhere near the Top 4 come May. Injuries have certainly hampered the first half of our season, but theres a long way to go.

 

SO FOR ONCE...try to be positive you Blues. At least we don't support the Kop shite or a perennial loser like Sunderland or Birmingham. Let's come back to this discussion at the end of the season...none of it means a damn at this point.

[rubecula]

Roberto is very like Davey in one respect. He will not admit he is wrong.

[Paddock]

I didn't realize when I started supporting Everton in 2007 that the fans are so negative. I agree that we are not playing up to the standards set by RM last season. We also weren't playing midweek matches in Europe, and our tactics worked against most teams. Problem, is we haven't evolved much since last season. Same tiki taka style of play, but good teams (and even some poor ones) have countered by pressing high up the pitch and forcing the long ball over the top. I love Mirallas, but if he could ever make a run behind the center backs without going offside, we would have another tactical strategy.

 

That being said, we traveled to Tottenham on Sunday, then off to Germany for a Thursday game, then back home against Hull 3 days later. In the United States, we refer to the Hull match as a "trap game". A much better team in a good run of form (until Tottenham loss) losing (or in our case drawing...which felt like a loss) to a weaker team in a poor run of form.

 

I think having Ross Barkley get somewhat seriously injured on the eve of the 1st game of the season really threw the entire squad off mentally, and it showed with those 2 horrendous draws to Leicester and Arsenal.

 

All-in-all, we won the Europa League "Group of Death" with one game to spare. At the start of the season, if someone told you that would be the case, who would believe it....honestly? That ought to be a massive achievement for a club that bombed out last time we were in a European competition.

 

I agree though about playing the wrong players/those not in form...why hasn't RM played Atsu more. Kid is lightning quick down the wing, and showed off his skills during the World Cup. Surely he could be a boost for us...most certainly better than playing Pienaar, or Osman out wide.

 

We arguably have a top 5 goalkeeper in the world, some were saying even Top 3 after the World Cup, but maybe he should focus on stopping shots instead of writing his autobiography...because he hasn't been in good form (other than Europa League).

 

Lastly, I understand the need for urgency, especially when the League table is basically up for grabs (not the title...Chelsea should have that bagged by now). This would be the season to try and qualify for the Champions League. BUT, we are going to do it via the Europa League clearly, because short of signing a couple more squad players in January, we are not going to be anywhere near the Top 4 come May. Injuries have certainly hampered the first half of our season, but theres a long way to go.

 

SO FOR ONCE...try to be positive you Blues. At least we don't support the Kop shite or a perennial loser like Sunderland or Birmingham. Let's come back to this discussion at the end of the season...none of it means a damn at this point.

Se never travelled to Germany after the Spurs game it was before.

 

I', and a lot others here have been supporting Everton 30 plus years we know what it's like to support them so excuse me when I tell you to get to fuck tlling me how to support my team I've been attending games for 30

Years now I spent tens of thousands following them and I know how it works and makes me feel.

 

Sorry but you fair weather fans ticking us real fans off for being homest about the side and not hoping "positivity" will make us win the league piss me off.

 

Oh andHoward isn't in the top 20. Top 3?

Edited December 5, 2014 by Paddock

[chicagoblue]

This is why people are concerned. It's a numbers game and we're not doing the maths.

 

http://bwinbetting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Points-after-14-games-compared-to-identical-fixtures-last-season.png

[c1982]

I think the immediate problem (which should be addressed in Jan) is balance. We need 2 new wingers to replace Pienaar and Atsu. I think Pienaar's had his day unfortunately and Osman offers as much as him now even out wide, as for Atsu, it just hasn't worked out.

 

We need another Mirallas to start most games on the opposite flank. I think McGeady still has a lot to offer but we need better than him to start most games.

 

We looked brilliant on the counter vs Wolfsburg with McGeady and Mirallas - I want to see them in tandem pre January and then add to it in Jan.

[Matt]

62%. There was a few where he just didn't jump.

ok, 62% (got the link for that, I'm curious). Still not nothing, is it?

[Romey 1878]

ok, 62% (got the link for that, I'm curious). Still not nothing, is it?

 

For someone who is thought to be shit at that, well over half is pretty good!

[Matt]

For someone who is thought to be shit at that, well over half is pretty good!

I'm curious what the other players achieved.

 

No recognition for the fact he won the header on the centre circle to Mirallas and then got to the box to score. He did it quite a few times during the game too.

 

Anyway, that's one thing Martinez has got wrong, lumping it up to the big lad is a Moyes strategy apparently! Why can't we play it on the deck but moving forward instead of sideways - another Moyes "trait" although his sideways passing was at least in midfield....

 

[Guest millwallforever]

Roberto is very like Davey in one respect. He will not admit he is wrong.

I don't think I ever saw Mourinho or SAF admit their faults either.

[Hafnia]

I'm curious what the other players achieved.

 

No recognition for the fact he won the header on the centre circle to Mirallas and then got to the box to score. He did it quite a few times during the game too.

 

Anyway, that's one thing Martinez has got wrong, lumping it up to the big lad is a Moyes strategy apparently! Why can't we play it on the deck but moving forward instead of sideways - another Moyes "trait" although his sideways passing was at least in midfield....

 

The thing is Matt it wasn't even on my register as a pro or a con but you kinda highlighted it as something to praise Rom for. The reality is in a game where he won just over 60% aerial duels you believed it was nearly every header.... It wasn't. To put it into context Martin skyrtel averages 80% aerial duels won over a season. Jags won over 62% of aerial duels all last season.

 

Naismith at 5ft 10 wins the majority of his duels every single game. Are we an aerial team? No. Do we need to be? Well scoring a header from a corner would be nice.

 

I'm not arsed if Lukaku ain't the best in the air. I'm more arsed that every time he does something fundamental that he doesn't usually do it's a case of "look what he just did! You said he can't do this" - it's getting to the point of desperation.

 

The reality is that the lad doesn't do the bread and butter things consistently well. His goals paper over a shed load of cracks.

[Matt]

The thing is Matt it wasn't even on my register as a pro or a con but you kinda highlighted it as something to praise Rom for. The reality is in a game where he won just over 60% aerial duels you believed it was nearly every header.... It wasn't. To put it into context Martin skyrtel averages 80% aerial duels won over a season. Jags won over 62% of aerial duels all last season.

Naismith at 5ft 10 wins the majority of his duels every single game. Are we an aerial team? No. Do we need to be? Well scoring a header from a corner would be nice.

I'm not arsed if Lukaku ain't the best in the air. I'm more arsed that every time he does something fundamental that he doesn't usually do it's a case of "look what he just did! You said he can't do this" - it's getting to the point of desperation.

The reality is that the lad doesn't do the bread and butter things consistently well. His goals paper over a shed load of cracks.

still waiting on that link dude. Be nice to see what Naismiths percentage is, since you quoted 2 other players but not him, even though you're using him to prove some kind of point.

 

And still no praise for the lad because he's not perfect. It's sad.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Matt

[Hafnia]

still waiting on that link dude. Be nice to see what Naismiths percentage is, since you quoted 2 other players but not him, even though you're using him to prove some kind of point.

 

And still no praise for the lad because he's not perfect. It's sad.

What's sad is you've nailed your colours to the "let's be kind, he never asked to be a £28m striker"

 

Statszone by four four two. Can't link on my phone but it's all on there.

[Matt]

What's sad is you've nailed your colours to the "let's be kind, he never asked to be a £28m striker"

Statszone by four four two. Can't link on my phone but it's all on there.

I've not "nailed my colours" to the price tag, because its irrelevant. I don't care about the pricetag, it has no relation to the lads ability Want to take that argument to the Martinez or Kenwright thread? Go ahead, thats where it belongs. Otherwise, credit or criticize (thats no issue) the player on his ability only. I'm sticking up for him because I recognize the good he does rather than being blinded by his weaknesses. Thats something Martinez has got right; he sticks up for his youth players because he recognizes they are developing, even when they're making errors.

 

I cannot find anything on fourfourtwo statzone, maybe I'm using it wrong.

[Bailey]

Hou think? Because I haven't seen us create many at all most of the season which is the whole point.

 

We have scored the 3rd most goals in the league or something along those lines. We create a lot of good chances and opportunities every game. Other teams may create more half chances like Wolsburg did against us but we can really cut teams open, maybe not as often as we should, but when we do cut them open it tends to be a very good chance.

 

I'm not completely unconvinced by him but... He is far from the finished article.. However he is/was on the right lines.

 

He just seems more reserved in games now. He doesn't seem to be as fearless as last season. It's the subs, his penchant to continuously field Osman and as pointed out by Romey his favourite players..... That's a Moyes trait

 

I dont think he is, I think a lot of it has to do with injuries. Osman doesnt start if we have an injury free squad and in the last few games its not like Osman is playing badly, he just hasnt got the legs for 90 minutes. Pretty much all of our players have been rotated, the two that has stayed more or less constant are Howard and Jags. Jags is captain so its unlikely he will be swapped and Howard's position depends on how capable you think Robles is. He seems to be wary of giving Besic too much game time which I'm not sure why and likewise Garbutt (given Baines' niggles) but other than that we must have one of the most used squads in the League/Europa.

 

Roberto is very like Davey in one respect. He will not admit he is wrong.

 

You show me a manager that does!

 

I think the immediate problem (which should be addressed in Jan) is balance. We need 2 new wingers to replace Pienaar and Atsu. I think Pienaar's had his day unfortunately and Osman offers as much as him now even out wide, as for Atsu, it just hasn't worked out.

 

We need another Mirallas to start most games on the opposite flank. I think McGeady still has a lot to offer but we need better than him to start most games.

 

We looked brilliant on the counter vs Wolfsburg with McGeady and Mirallas - I want to see them in tandem pre January and then add to it in Jan.

 

I remember Steve_E mentioning McGeady on the right and Mirallas on the left at the end of last season and this pre-season and he was spot on. Mirallas has stepped up to the plate under Martinez and now he just needs to stay fit. The problem comes when he is out of the side because you have 3 or 4 wide players (or players who can do a job there like Barkley) who aren't at the peak of their powers or best form right now. A decent, dependable winger is a must in Jan and if possible a tricky/classy winger too.

[Newty82]

I think that something we all miss is where Martinez is in his career. He is in the early days. He's 41 years of age. A very young manager.

 

Moyes was 39 when we appointed him. Martinez 40. How many years did it take Moyes to develop his playing style? How many players did he sign? How many mistakes were made?

 

We gave Moyes 11 years. After Moyes' 2nd full season in charge, where we finished 17th, Moyes said he learned a lot from that dreadful season about himself as a Manager, he said himself that he then altered his approach. Moyes was then 41 years of age.

 

See the similarities?

 

What ever we think, Martinez will get it right. Martinez is a clever man. A man who studies the game in depth.

 

The idea behind our play is dead right. Keep the ball. Make the opposition chase and tire. And attack with pace. Unfortunately the pace bit is missing just now!

 

There could be many many reasons why it isn't happening as it should just now. And we can debate it until we curl up and die.

 

But I believe we are in the right hands. Whatever happens this season, and I still believe we'll push for 4th, we will be better equipped for the next season and so on and so forth.

[MC11]

I think that something we all miss is where Martinez is in his career. He is in the early days. He's 41 years of age. A very young manager.

Moyes was 39 when we appointed him. Martinez 40. How many years did it take Moyes to develop his playing style? How many players did he sign? How many mistakes were made?

We gave Moyes 11 years. After Moyes' 2nd full season in charge, where we finished 17th, Moyes said he learned a lot from that dreadful season about himself as a Manager, he said himself that he then altered his approach. Moyes was then 41 years of age.

See the similarities?

What ever we think, Martinez will get it right. Martinez is a clever man. A man who studies the game in depth.

The idea behind our play is dead right. Keep the ball. Make the opposition chase and tire. And attack with pace. Unfortunately the pace bit is missing just now!

There could be many many reasons why it isn't happening as it should just now. And we can debate it until we curl up and die.

But I believe we are in the right hands. Whatever happens this season, and I still believe we'll push for 4th, we will be better equipped for the next season and so on and so forth.

We were in a completely different position when Moyes joined. Martinez inherited a top 6 side.

[Newty82]

We were in a completely different position when Moyes joined. Martinez inherited a top 6 side.

You know what, I swear down, when I was typing all that I knew you would pipe up with that. Knew it.

 

You completely miss the point of the post. As always.

 

It was about age and learning from mistakes. That's management. Both irrelevant to what you inherit.

 

(As a side note...those who use inheritance as an 'attack' on Martinez and 'defence' of Moyes always fail to mention that Moyes inherited a title winning side at Man Utd. Hence, the whole argument is invalid).

[Brett Angel]

We were in a completely different position when Moyes joined. Martinez inherited a top 6 side.

It was more obvious with moyes success you dick. There was more of a gulf meaning anything he done above bottom three in the league would have been classed as success.

 

Bobby on the other hand has had to change style of play and better European contention to European success within 1 year.

[Newty82]

It was more obvious with moyes success you dick. There was more of a gulf meaning anything he done above bottom three in the league would have been classed as success.

 

Bobby on the other hand has had to change style of play and better European contention to European success within 1 year.

That's another good way to put it. The 'Dick' bit is most accurate, of course.

 

Don't want it to be another fruitless Martinez vs Moyes battle...Moyes got the time to learn and get it right. To develop his way of playing. To build his squad. Martinez needs the same treatment.

[MC11]

That's another good way to put it. The 'Dick' bit is most accurate, of course.

Don't want it to be another fruitless Martinez vs Moyes battle..Moyes got the time to learn and get it right. To develop his way of playing. To build his squad. Martinez needs the same treatment.

Why even post it then Edited December 6, 2014 by MC11

[Newty82]

Why even post it then

Post what?

[MC11]

Post what?

The shit comparing Martinez and Moyes

[scottish toffee]

i would like to see mcgeady played more than he does or is he not 100% fit? i know that he he one hell of a good player but the manager does not seem to let him play a lot also we need to get some new defenders and we have to get them fast