Has Martinez got it wrong?

[Shukes]

We need that twelfth man.

When our team is this low on confidence we can make a difference.

 

It's not our job to change the teams fortunes around but any supporter knows what an effect we can have by bringing the roof down.

 

Just imagine the movie cameras are there every match and we'll be fine.

[Matt]

I'll put it the best way for all you Martinez haters. We can have two choices. The first is to get a manager like moyes, or even moyes to turn us back into a team that is hard to beat and regularly gets top seven finish. You may see that as a positive, the problem with this type of manager, and it's been proved, is they will always shit out on the next step and won't have enough nouse to make the next step to elite.

 

Martinez on the other hand wants to play a certain style that bridges a huge gap between ourselves and the mid table to lower sides. Yet, would still be more than capable of challenging any top four side regularly. Sure, it may have turned sour this season but what Martinez is trying to teach could all click into place in one season witht the right individuals.

 

I would take the latter any day of the week, cause the day we just except the initial, is the day the club fades into insignificance.

 

I really do understand where people get the hump with this guy but would I would rather back a manager with European pedigree and an intelligent football brain ahead of a substanderd, sit on the fence moyes.

 

Stabilisation over progression or progression over safety.

Good post, and great summary in the last line.

 

The issue I am having with Martinez is that he is proving to be just as stubborn as Moyes, whilst be wreckless with developing our young prospects as well as tactics. Progression for me is evolution; adapting to the needs around you in order to prosper. Martinez has come out and said he won't change, which is not progression, its a recipe for disaster.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Matt

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

The new one doing the rounds from the reds shite is "we go the game, it's what we blooo"...... Should be ashamed of yourselves.

 

Who should be ashamed of what?

[Hafnia]

He's not "proven" anywhere really though is he Brett. He's won an FA Cup but so has Joe Kinear and joe Royle he kept a sub standard premier leagueside in the league, Tony Pullis and Alan Curbishley do it often.

 

Reality is other than an FA Cup win (which arguably any manager can do with a bit of luck) he'sdone nothing and the more alarming factor is all the bad traits he had at Wigan, the ones everyone blamed on it being because he was managing a shit side with virtually zero resources are all appearing here in less than two seasons. .... Conceding shit loads ofgoals, terrible defending, horrendous injury list total disregard to acknowledge a defensive side to the game even though his sides all leak goals and it's glaringly obvious that they do and this has all come out of a side that yes had hit a glass ceiling but we were solid, hard to beat, organised and more importantly TOGETHER!!

 

Brett, the whole side looks in disaray. We look unorganised , the players look and sound like they're fed up with thebrand of football he wants them to play and seem to be taking things into their own hands in certain areas. That is not a good sign but to top it all off our football is boring. I don't understand where you get this "progression" from. Last season with arguable half Moyes ideals and half Martinez ideals we were great. 8 months down the line and Moyes is flushed out the players systems and we are in total free fall and I'm bored to tears watching us, my 7 year old is saying at games "Dad I'm bored" and he's right it's mind numbingly shite.

 

I see nothing but deteriotration in us. I see once happy players who wanted to fight for the cause looking miserable and uninterested, I see players that loked to be brimming with confidence looking beferft of ideas and hiding from the ball, I just don't see anything but a disheveled bunch of players looking beleaguered and lost.

 

Joe Kinnear? It was Bobby Gould.

 

Anyway. As I've said before what RM did at Wigan can only be appreciated if you sit down and look at the financials of what he had to work with.

 

Its lazy to compare him to Bruce and Jewell - they threw money away on players salaries to get them to Wigan (Heskey, Bramble, Cattermole etc etc). RM had to get rid of these hefty salaries and replace them on the cheap.

[Brett Angel]

He's not "proven" anywhere really though is he Brett. He's won an FA Cup but so has Joe Kinear and joe Royle he kept a sub standard premier leagueside in the league, Tony Pullis and Alan Curbishley do it often.

 

Reality is other than an FA Cup win (which arguably any manager can do with a bit of luck) he'sdone nothing and the more alarming factor is all the bad traits he had at Wigan, the ones everyone blamed on it being because he was managing a shit side with virtually zero resources are all appearing here in less than two seasons. .... Conceding shit loads ofgoals, terrible defending, horrendous injury list total disregard to acknowledge a defensive side to the game even though his sides all leak goals and it's glaringly obvious that they do and this has all come out of a side that yes had hit a glass ceiling but we were solid, hard to beat, organised and more importantly TOGETHER!!

 

Brett, the whole side looks in disaray. We look unorganised , the players look and sound like they're fed up with thebrand of football he wants them to play and seem to be taking things into their own hands in certain areas. That is not a good sign but to top it all off our football is boring. I don't understand where you get this "progression" from. Last season with arguable half Moyes ideals and half Martinez ideals we were great. 8 months down the line and Moyes is flushed out the players systems and we are in total free fall and I'm bored to tears watching us, my 7 year old is saying at games "Dad I'm bored" and he's right it's mind numbingly shite.

 

I see nothing but deteriotration in us. I see once happy players who wanted to fight for the cause looking miserable and uninterested, I see players that loked to be brimming with confidence looking beferft of ideas and hiding from the ball, I just don't see anything but a disheveled bunch of players looking beleaguered and lost.

I think no matter what anyone else says, we will always have our own opinion. The one thing I will defend Martinez on is, I highly doubt bobby is asking the players to pass back and forth like crabs across the penalty area. Everytime the camera gets on bobby, he's pleading with them to move the ball quicker. (Hand signals)... If he has players that arnt intelligent to play this system then we must give him time to work on transfers. Barkley, Naismith and Mirallas can't play this way. Mirallas is a great player but needs two touches. Barkley needs nine and Naismith tries his hardest but will never be able to play this system properly unless we play him up top.

You only need to look across the park at one particular player (coutinhio) to notice what type of players we are missing. He runs at defenders like Barkley, but doesn't over run it and picks a pass out at the right time to open up a complete defence.

[Blue 250]

In the 13 games McCarthy has featured. We have won 23 points - 1.76 per game. In the 13 games he never featured we have won 9 points - 0.69 per game.

 

 

Wishy washy??? Yeah alright. Night night, get a few more hours kip. It can help cognitive function. .. unlikely for you.

 

 

Your the one that labled stats as wishy washy, don't back track and make out that phrase came from me!

 

Your still not grasping the basics.So let's try and explain again.

 

Let's use your 'POWERFULL' stat as you called it....oh and by the way you accused me of being selective, well that's just what you have been here, ie saying stats are wishy washy except for this one ( think you'll find that's being selective).

 

McCarthy, you state, in the 13 games he has featured we have won 23 points....1.76 per game blah, blah, blah.

As opposed to whatever in whatever !

 

Now for the tricky bit, you might need the help of an adult for this bit.

 

THE 13 GAMES HE FEATURED IN...............who were the opposition ? were we at home or away ? did either our goalkeeper or theirs have great games or disasters, did the opponents who ever they were actually play well ? how well did the other Everton players perform ? did Lukaku fire or misfire......BECAUSE YOU SEE, ALL THESE THINGS PLUS MANY MORE ARE INFLUENCES ON THE GAMES, therefore, now here's another tricky bit.

 

Those points won during those games were dependant on SO MANY factors other than just the fact McCarthy was playing ie Barkley could have had a great run of form.To say your/their stats are wishy washy is being kind.

 

This particular stat was your powerfully strong one and to be honest it's a joke.

 

Like MikeO said they are bullshit.

 

Stats are a vague guideline, to use them in all your arguements shows a basic lack of understanding.

 

PS I rate McCarthy pretty highly, not going by any wishy washy stats but what I've seen of him.

[Hafnia]

 

 

Your the one that labled stats as wishy washy, don't back track and make out that phrase came from me!

 

Your still not grasping the basics.So let's try and explain again.

 

Let's use your 'POWERFULL' stat as you called it....oh and by the way you accused me of being selective, well that's just what you have been here, ie saying stats are wishy washy except for this one ( think you'll find that's being selective).

 

McCarthy, you state, in the 13 games he has featured we have won 23 points....1.76 per game blah, blah, blah.

As opposed to whatever in whatever !

 

Now for the tricky bit, you might need the help of an adult for this bit.

 

THE 13 GAMES HE FEATURED IN...............who were the opposition ? were we at home or away ? did either our goalkeeper or theirs have great games or disasters, did the opponents who ever they were actually play well ? how well did the other Everton players perform ? did Lukaku fire or misfire......BECAUSE YOU SEE, ALL THESE THINGS PLUS MANY MORE ARE INFLUENCES ON THE GAMES, therefore, now here's another tricky bit.

 

Those points won during those games were dependant on SO MANY factors other than just the fact McCarthy was playing ie Barkley could have had a great run of form.To say your/their stats are wishy washy is being kind.

 

This particular stat was your powerfully strong one and to be honest it's a joke.

 

Like MikeO said they are bullshit.

 

Stats are a vague guideline, to use them in all your arguements shows a basic lack of understanding.

 

PS I rate McCarthy pretty highly, not going by any wishy washy stats but what I've seen of him.

 

spend more time absorbing what you are reading and less time typing nonsense - MikeO actually said it was difficult to argue against the McCarthy stats.

 

You are just choosing to object to my stance on using stats - thats fine, just don't be so juvenile about it.

 

Tell you what if I get a bit of time I will give you the data behind those stats...

 

For the time being here's a stat which was widely shared when Ronaldo received a 3 match ban back in Feb last year. "In the 4 years Ronaldo had been with Real, when he wasn't playing their win ratio was 66%, with him they won 80%...."

 

Then again you probably think thats wishy washy and need to understand whether the opposition team had been given dodgy paella the night before on the games where he didn't play.

[MC11]

spend more time absorbing what you are reading and less time typing nonsense - MikeO actually said it was difficult to argue against the McCarthy stats.

 

You are just choosing to object to my stance on using stats - thats fine, just don't be so juvenile about it.

 

Tell you what if I get a bit of time I will give you the data behind those stats...

 

For the time being here's a stat which was widely shared when Ronaldo received a 3 match ban back in Feb last year. "In the 4 years Ronaldo had been with Real, when he wasn't playing their win ratio was 66%, with him they won 80%...."

 

Then again you probably think thats wishy washy and need to understand whether the opposition team had been given dodgy paella the night before on the games where he didn't play.

You've used Ronaldo to justify McCarthy. Lol

 

This is a guy who actually has INDIVIDUAL stats to back those other stats up. Hafnia you're well off base. McCarthy is not Evertons Ronaldo not even close. Wind it in now.

 

I'm actually glad this subject has taken your mind off Lukaku for a week though.

Edited January 21, 2015 by MC11

[Hafnia]

You've used Ronaldo to justify McCarthy. Lol

 

This is a guy who actually has INDIVIDUAL stats to back those other stats up. Hafnia you're well off base. McCarthy is not Evertons Ronaldo not even close. Wind it in now.

 

I'm actually glad this subject has taken your mind off Lukaku for a week though.

Now where did I say that McCarthy is Everton's Ronaldo?

 

http://www.practiceaptitudetests.com/verbal-reasoning-tests/

[MC11]

Now where did I say that McCarthy is Everton's Ronaldo?

 

http://www.practiceaptitudetests.com/verbal-reasoning-tests/

Why have you mentioned Ronaldo then? More than silly isn't it? Of course they're going to miss the "best player in the world" who scores more than half of their goals and probably gives them the most assists?

 

It's these individual stats that give additional weight to those you're trying to perch McCarthy up on. But there is still always mitigating factors which you're refusing to acknowledge.

[Hafnia]

Why have you mentioned Ronaldo then? More than silly isn't it? Of course they're going to miss the "best player in the world" who scores more than half of their goals and probably gives them the most assists?

 

It's these individual stats that give additional weight to those you're trying to perch McCarthy up on. But there is still always mitigating factors which you're refusing to acknowledge.

So the difference in win ratios is understandable because it's ronaldo but not so clear cut if it's McCarthy?

 

Mitigating factors? Maybe Martinez can use such factors as a defence of Evertons season so far but I'm sure you won't let him off with that.

 

You seem oh so sure that one man is responsible for Evertons poor season but you can't apply the same logic to McCarthy? Bit contradictory isn't it?

[MC11]

So the difference in win ratios is understandable because it's ronaldo but not so clear cut if it's McCarthy?

Mitigating factors? Maybe Martinez can use such factors as a defence of Evertons season so far but I'm sure you won't let him off with that.

You seem oh so sure that one man is responsible for Evertons poor season but you can't apply the same logic to McCarthy? Bit contradictory isn't it?

As I've said, (Stop skimming) Ronaldo actually has individual stats that add weight to win percentage stats - that can't be said about McCarthy.

 

Martinez is the wrong man.

[Hafnia]

As I've said, (Stop skimming) Ronaldo actually has individual stats that add weight to win percentage stats - that can't be said about McCarthy.

 

Martinez is the wrong man.

So does McCarthy. Interceptions, tackles, or did you think we can score goals without possession of the ball?

[Blue 250]

 

spend more time absorbing what you are reading and less time typing nonsense - MikeO actually said it was difficult to argue against the McCarthy stats.

 

You are just choosing to object to my stance on using stats - thats fine, just don't be so juvenile about it.

 

Tell you what if I get a bit of time I will give you the data behind those stats...

 

For the time being here's a stat which was widely shared when Ronaldo received a 3 match ban back in Feb last year. "In the 4 years Ronaldo had been with Real, when he wasn't playing their win ratio was 66%, with him they won 80%...."

 

Then again you probably think thats wishy washy and need to understand whether the opposition team had been given dodgy paella the night before on the games where he didn't play.

 

You've done it again ! wishy washy.....that was YOUR phrase, YOU said a lot of stats are wishy washy.So why continue to quotethem, MikeO told you they were bullshit get the post up and take a look at it.

 

Once again you've failed to answer questions posed.

 

I'll give you another way to look at it, might help you grasp things.

 

Let's use McCarthy as a the subject as he's being mentioned.Let's say that when we lost at home to Crystal Palace 3-2 McCarthy was our man of the match, could easily have happened or any other match come to that.

So, are you still with me, his stats show no points and a lost game, when he may have had a brilliant game.Get's a bit more tricky now........likewise he could have had a stinker while the team actually won, therefore 3 points credited to his 'stats' when he could have played crap! See it doesn't work.In the 13 games and 23 points we gained whilst McCarthy was playing, how do we even know how he performed.

You are using 'stats' to prove McCarthys worth to the team, but they prove nothing relavent to the player except the fact he was present.

 

Oh, you said if you get a bit of time you'll get me some data to back up your stats, you are of course joking aren't you.Have you really nothing better to do!

Seriously get away for a while it will help you think more clearly.

 

Don't forget........you called them wishy washy, not me.

 

This stats thing is even more boring than your Lukaku problem for the sake of the forum I'm out on the subject, I have a mental picture of you franticly pouring over data sheets and stats.

 

It's very sad.

[Newty82]

How the hell are you able to carry this on Haf, and stay rational?! And what seems to be calm?!

[Hafnia]

Ok... Simple terms win ratio without/ without McCarthy is:-

 

1 win in 13 without him = 7.7%

 

7 wins in 16 with him = 43.7%

 

I'm sure it's just a coincidence though eh....

[MC11]

Ok... Simple terms win ratio without/ without McCarthy is:-

1 win in 13 without him = 7.7%

7 wins in 16 with him = 43.7%

I'm sure it's just a coincidence though eh....

Opposition please, home or away please, other key players missing please - it can go on and on.

 

How the fuck can you base all results on one player. Seriously it's mental.

[Matt]

Opposition please, home or away please, other key players missing please - it can go on and on.

 

How the fuck can you base all results on one player. Seriously it's mental.

He's not, he's showing a trend. It's very simple really. McCarthy has proved to be a large part of our success under Martinez. Without we've suffered immensely. Edited January 21, 2015 by Matt

[Hafnia]

How the hell are you able to carry this on Haf, and stay rational?! And what seems to be calm?!

Easy, when you know you are above them in terms of intelligence you feel sorry for them in a way!

 

I enjoy the challenge with Matt, Duncan, Bailey, Mike, romey. I disagree with enough but Intelligent lads who don't chat shite for the sake of a rise.

 

All boils down to maturity and lack of insecurity I guess.

[Hafnia]

Opposition please, home or away please, other key players missing please - it can go on and on.

 

How the fuck can you base all results on one player. Seriously it's mental.

Well go and challenge bit then with "data"

[Newty82]

I get where some peeps are coming from about stats...what about the opponent, did so and so play, was that team in form etc etc..

 

The thing is, when you get simple stats such as 'games played in, points won', and you take these simple but effective stats over a period of time, a true pattern emerges. Sometimes there's no need to look at the micros, when the macros tell the story. You start diving into micros, and the possibilities are endless. You end up using a lot of effort just to get back to the original macro assumption.

 

Back to Martinez...

[Newty82]

He's not, he's showing a trend. It's very simple really. McCarthy has proved to be a large part of our success under Martinez. Without we've suffered immensely.

That's the one...A trend emerges. Bang on.

[MC11]

OMG brown nosing here. I'd rather put pins in me eyes than turn up to that party

[MC11]

Well go and challenge bit then with "data"

You do it you're trying to convince us. You started the discussion.

[Newty82]

Ok... Simple terms win ratio without/ without McCarthy is:-

 

1 win in 13 without him = 7.7%

 

7 wins in 16 with him = 43.7%

 

I'm sure it's just a coincidence though eh....

When you get % this far apart, you can bet your life that diving into multiple layers of detail will prove to be insignificant.

[Newty82]

OMG brown nosing here. I'd rather put pins in me eyes than turn up to that party

 

Here we go...back to child antics. Brown nosing, suck up, whatever.

 

For some reason, over the past 4-6 weeks, maybe more, whenever there is agreement or good rational conversation, it gets put down to brown nosing or whatever.

[Hafnia]

You do it you're trying to convince us. You started the discussion.

You and blue, no one else is challenging it. Cut through the spin, go on? surprise us, self source some data that says "its all a load of bollocks haf"

[MC11]

Here we go...back to child antics. Brown nosing, suck up, whatever.

For some reason, over the past 4-6 weeks, maybe more, whenever there is agreement or good rational conversation, it gets put down to brown nosing or whatever.

No agreement it was the name dropping.

[Newty82]

No agreement it was the name dropping.

What name dropping? Do you mean Haf's post a few up the way??

[MC11]

What name dropping? Do you mean Haf's post a few up the way??

Yes!