Has Martinez got it wrong?

[MC11]

Little stat:

 

Liverpool have 22 points from 17 games. No team has finished higher than 6th with that number of points from so many games in Premier League history.

 

We're on 21 points.

Edited December 21, 2014 by MC11

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://twitter.com/stancollymore/status/546716956993531905

 

 

See TalkSport debating it now

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-fc-analysis-roberto-martinez-8327482

[Newty82]

https://twitter.com/stancollymore/status/546716956993531905

 

 

See TalkSport debating it now

Did you listen in? Any common theme coming in?

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Did you listen in? Any common theme coming in?

Only what we've been saying in here for a while now ie teams in the Premiership have sussed us out a long time ago and that we have no plan B. In short the school of science is NOT back

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/match-reports/greg-okeeffes-verdict-everton-fc-8327932

[bluenosetoffee]

I have said it once and I will say it again, it is tempo in the game. I know Martinez is all about patient passing and slowing the game down but this season all the tempo has gone out of the game completely. Now teams have cottoned on that if you put pressure on us straight away we will more than likely fall apart.

[Bailey]

There is some crap in here (and some good points too but harder to find!)

 

Moyes mentality? Are you fucking kidding! Some people have selective memories... I have seen us play plenty of long balls this season too.

 

As for managers talking shit... they all do... mainly because they get asked the same questions week in week out. I at least prefer some positivity ahead of the previous doom and gloom we had week in week out.

 

Without doubt the weekend's performance hangs on his head. I dont understand why he chose those players and I dont know why he didnt think a bit of natural width might have helped. At Wigan it used to be one of his main traits in leaving the winger isolated with the opposition full back creating all sorts of space in the middle for others to attack. I dont understand why of all players, its Barkley being sacrificed wide and I dont agree with rotation with rotations sake like it is at the moment.

 

I dont quite know what is going on behind the scenes but Martinez needs to get his head screwed on again. Stop forcing players out of position, get Barkley central and get Stones back in the 11. Get McGeady on one flank and Mirallas on the left when he is fit. Get Naisy on when we need energy or in the games we need energy and use Etoo and Kone off the bench to bring another dimension to our play or when we are up against compact teams that Lukaku will struggle to break down.

 

Finally the last and most important thing is lets get on the front foot and stopping waving teams on to us (which is something we used to do under Moyes for you lot with the short memories). I have yet to see a really good team allow the opposition any time on the ball.

 

Rant over.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Bailey

[Newty82]

I have said it once and I will say it again, it is tempo in the game. I know Martinez is all about patient passing and slowing the game down but this season all the tempo has gone out of the game completely. Now teams have cottoned on that if you put pressure on us straight away we will more than likely fall apart.

I actually agree with the philosophy of keeping the ball, patiently passing around and looking to create gaps. Make the opposition chase the ball and, in a way, tire out. It's a sound game plan. The opposition can't (or isn't supposed to!) do much damage if they don't have the ball.

 

To me, it's supposed to be the same mentality as when David Haye beat that massive bloke, Nikolai Valuev. Haye didn't land many punches, but he made Valuev chase him and made him miss. You can't win a fight if you don't land a punch.

 

I'm pretty sure we had this style last season.

 

This season....I think we all know. The tempo is too slow. Passing it around at the back is fine. Moving it forward...then all the way back again, is not fine. And we are doing this too much.

 

There's many things that don't look right this season. We all tend to have our ding dongs on here, but I think we all agree on the same things that are going wrong (well, mostly, don't want to push my luck!). Maybe not on individual players, but certainly on things like tempo, positions, intensity, aggression.

 

Martinez is meant to be a student of the game. A deep analyser. A bloke who has 2 TV's in his living room...One for him and his football analysis and one for his missus. I hope he is honest with himself and what he must be able to see.

 

I think he got it badly wrong on Saturday. And it's not hindsight. We can only hope he looks and learns from it. Quickly.

 

Fortunately, we are not a club that judges managers midway through their 2nd season. We don't write off a season after 17 games. I still believe we have something to play for.

 

And I also believe we will click and play some real good stuff in the 2nd half of the season.

 

He pissed me off on Saturday, more so than I have been for a very long time as an Evertonian. But I still believe that his philosophy on football is right for this club. I still believe in the culture he wants to bring. It needs some fine tuning and an oil change. That doesn't make it a write off.

 

If not, I'll happily go in 'The Vault'.

[MikeO]

There is some crap in here (and some good points too but harder to find!)

 

Moyes mentality? Are you fucking kidding! Some people have selective memories... I have seen us play plenty of long balls this season too.

 

As for managers talking shit... they all do... mainly because they get asked the same questions week in week out. I at least prefer some positivity ahead of the previous doom and gloom we had week in week out.

 

Without doubt the weekend's performance hangs on his head. I dont understand why he chose those players and I dont know why he didnt think a bit of natural width might have helped. At Wigan it used to be one of his main traits in leaving the winger isolated with the opposition full back creating all sorts of space in the middle for others to attack. I dont understand why of all players, its Barkley being sacrificed wide and I dont agree with rotation with rotations sake like it is at the moment.

 

I dont quite know what is going on behind the scenes but Martinez needs to get his head screwed on again. Stop forcing players out of position, get Barkley central and get Stones back in the 11. Get McGeady on one flank and Mirallas on the left when he is fit. Get Naisy on when we need energy or in the games we need energy and use Etoo and Kone off the bench to bring another dimension to our play or when we are up against compact teams that Lukaku will struggle to break down.

 

Finally the last and most important thing is lets get on the front foot and stopping waving teams on to us (which is something we used to do under Moyes for you lot with the short memories). I have yet to see a really good team allow the opposition any time on the ball.

 

Rant over.

 

Agree with all of that, even the Mcgeady point (grudgingly) as we have no current alternative.

[Kant]

To be honest, this season Everton players look like playing at 70%, while last season the same players were playing 110%.

 

Agressiveness, electric runs, hunger, will... all seem to be dissapeared. They look like they don't care, and I blame Martinez for this (yes, I do).

 

Whatever passing game you want to play, it's nothing to do with the defensive phase on the game, and in that one we su*k big time. I have not seen any team back off and let the opposition play as comfortably as this team. It's a shame because the team is very talented and can push to the top 4 as shown last year, but you need to press up, to go all-in to 50-50 tackles and to show that you want it more than the other teams.

 

I am not so worried about this season, because it's also true that there is a process of rejuvenating the team, with an old backspine fading at different paces (Howard, Distin, Pienaar fading worryingly fast, Jags, Baines and Eto'o still keeping it up). The young players are starting to feel responsible for what happens to the team (Stones, Barkley, McCarthy and Lukaku mainly) but they are not able to compete or inspire the same level of intensity to the other teammates, and Martinez is not helping in this.

 

All in all, the team looks softs and weak. If they play and they are allowed time on the ball, this is among the most talented Everton squad I have seen in the last 10 years, but also the most vulnerable mentally. Everytime they score they try (and fail) to protect the score, exactly at the moment when you have to go and grab the game by the neck and take it down.

 

Last part of this long rant, I really feel Everton is a candidate to win the Europa League. A talented team, soft (but Euro teams are softer too and don't play that many long balls), that can turn up and beat anyone and with key players that can decide a tight game. Martinez is good at cup runs, but the last one got Wigan relegated. I'd be really ecstatic if Everton win the Europa League, but if they do not, I'll be pissed off because they threw away a PL season with no clear 4th (West Ham is 4th!!! Liverpool are pants, Arsenal weak as always and the Spurs are the Spurs). Plus, Stones will be back soon, and nowadays he's the best defender at the club.

[johnh]

Don't see many live games, only if they are on TV, so maybe I am able to see the difference in the way we play against last season. Last season Coleman and Baines were like wingers, down to the corner flag at any opportunity. This season, Coleman particularly, reaches the half-way line, stops, plays the ball back or sideways. Baines gets forward more than Colema n but not as much as he did last season. Last season it seemed to be 'attack, attack, attack'. This season it seems to be keep possession, don't take risks. One example being the recent game where we had a free kick on the edge of the opposition penalty area and three passes later it went back to Howard.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.sos1878.co.uk/everton-news/defence-roberto-martinez/

[MC11]

http://www.sos1878.co.uk/everton-news/defence-roberto-martinez/

Stopped reading at "plucky little Everton"

[Newty82]

I don't get too concerned with who occupies what position until the last 8-10 games. There's no point fretting that West Ham are in 4th when we have 21 games to play. The same as a few weeks ago, Southampton were 2nd, 3rd, then 4th. They'll fade.

 

I prefer to keep tabs on where we are compared to those most likely to challenge for 4th. Arsenal, Spurs and Redshite.

 

It feels wrong talking down other teams chances when we aren't doing as well as expected.

 

But that kind of makes me feel positive. We've seen the best of the likes of West Ham and Southampton, possibly Man Utd (possibly!!!). We haven't seen the best of us. And it will happen at some point. It has to happen. We have a real good squad. A good manager. I cannot believe that this squad of players, and this manager, can perform at this level for a whole season. We may be mid table, but we are there not by playing out of our skins and above our level but by playing (mostly) shite and way below our level.

 

I know there'll be a few shaking there heads in disbelief. But allow me to have my more positive outlook the same way as you are allowed your more negative outlook.

 

Martinez can sort this out.

[MikeO]

Stopped reading at "plucky little Everton"

 

Then you misunderstood, it said "...the image of plucky little Everton had been extinguished..." so in fact had the opposite meaning of what you're suggesting.

 

Read on.

[MC11]

 

Then you misunderstood, it said "...the image of plucky little Everton had been extinguished..." so in fact had the opposite meaning of what you're suggesting.

 

Read on.

No. Because anyone who uses that term is a pleb. Far too cliche and everyone who I've spoke to who uses it is a bellend. Personal preference here Mike.

[Newty82]

No. Because anyone who uses that term is a pleb. Far too cliche and everyone who I've spoke to who uses it is a bellend. Personal preference here Mike.

But it wasn't being used in that context! That's the point. The term had been extinguished, banished, gone, forgotten....etc etc!!!

[MC11]

But it wasn't being used in that context! That's the point. The term had been extinguished, banished, gone, forgotten....etc etc!!!

It has absolutely nothing to do with what context it's used in. Only bellends bring that phrase into conversation. I've witnessed it at the game ,it's a horrible phrase made up by some cart and repeated by thousands of Everton fans over and over. In self pity. His inclusion of it tells me exactly what type of Evertonian he is. "In defense of Martinez" also put me off straight away.

[MikeO]

It has absolutely nothing to do with what context it's used in. Only bellends bring that phrase into conversation. I've witnessed it at the game ,it's a horrible phrase made up by some cart and repeated by thousands of Everton fans over and over. In self pity. His inclusion of it tells me exactly what type of Evertonian he is. "In defense of Martinez" also put me off straight away.

 

His included it to dismiss it.

 

You also used it to dismiss it.

 

So does that tell us exactly what type of Evertonian you are as you agree with him?

[Newty82]

 

His included it to dismiss it.

 

You also used it to dismiss it.

 

So does that tell us exactly what type of Evertonian you are as you agree with him?

I wouldn't bother. I think he's in one of those moods. We haven't had one for a while, it was due.

[MC11]

His included it to dismiss it.

 

You also used it to dismiss it.

 

So does that tell us exactly what type of Evertonian you are as you agree with him?

I've always dismissed it.... We've never been plucky little Everton. It's a self pity rant by bellends. For him to say it's now gone, he once believed it. Therefore absolutely not agreeing with him. I stopped reading because I've seen the agenda driven shite by the people who use that phrase come out with.... In whichever context it's being said.

 

Why the fuck are you trying to drive it down my throat?

[Newty82]

Have you been drinking?

[MikeO]

I've always dismissed it.... We've never been plucky little Everton. It's a self pity rant by bellends. For him to say it's now gone, he once believed it. Therefore absolutely not agreeing with him. I stopped reading because I've seen the agenda driven shite by the people who use that phrase come out with.... In whichever context it's being said.

 

Why the fuck are you trying to drive it down my throat?

 

Not driving anything down your throat.

 

You can't say, "For him to say it's now gone, he once believed it".

 

Zero evidence of that, just read the fucking article and you'll realise.

[MC11]

 

Not driving anything down your throat.

 

You can't say, "For him to say it's now gone, he once believed it".

 

Zero evidence of that, just read the fucking article and you'll realise.

I've read it and it's an anti-Moyes pro Martinez agenda. The type of fella who can't see Martinez short falls and exactly what I was expecting. The two comments below the article sum it up.

 

The poor pre-season and lack of performance this season has to lie solely with Martinez. I don't want him sacked just yet. But right now he's showing no intentions of changing his failing philosophy.

Edited December 22, 2014 by MC11

[MikeO]

I've read it and it's an anti-Moyes pro Martinez agenda. The type of fella who can't see Martinez short falls and exactly what I was expecting. The two comments below the article sum it up.

 

The poor pre-season and lack of performance this season has to lie solely with Martinez. I don't want him sacked just yet. But right now he's showing no intentions of changing his failing philosophy.

 

I think he absolutely does flag up Roberto's recent failings, it's by no means a eulogistic piece; just says, "keep the faith" because he believes we'll.come good. Justifiable position that I agree with.

 

Anti/pro Moyes is irrelevant, ancient history.

[MC11]

I think he absolutely does flag up Roberto's recent failings, it's by no means a eulogistic piece; just says, "keep the faith" because he believes we'll.come good. Justifiable position that I agree with.

 

Anti/pro Moyes is irrelevant, ancient history.

It's not irrelevant. He's saying he'd rather see this poor football than throwing the long ball into the box all game. Which again is absolute rubbish. We play to win and this season his possession based football is making us look a terrible side. Why does plan B have to mean the long ball? That's just a dig at Moyes. Moyes had us playing good football. His last season in charge was as exciting as any I've witnessed. It certainly wasn't just hoof ball.

 

Plan B can be a change of formation whilst still implying the tika taka.... Why not go two up front for example? What's wrong with throwing a few crosses in the box? Beckham at United anyone?

[Paddock]

I don't agree with this theory that Moyes had us playing shit football and it most certainly wasn't hoof ball. We played some wonderful stuff under Moyes, Pienaar and Baines were fantastic together, we were a strong unit and defended resiliantly but we were by no means a hoof ball side.

 

People forget what Moyes done for us. Yes he left like a twat and yes we had gone stale and he also wasn't perfect but to say we were soley a hoof ball team is just ridiculous.

 

As I've said elsewhere. I wonder how well we would have progressed if he had been given 35 million to spend in one window instead of having to constantly find gems. Imagine he'd of got Negredo when we were linked or another top name striker when we were crying out for one.

[Romey 1878]

It's not irrelevant. He's saying he'd rather see this poor football than throwing the long ball into the box all game. Which again is absolute rubbish. We play to win and this season his possession based football is making us look a terrible side. Why does plan B have to mean the long ball? That's just a dig at Moyes. Moyes had us playing good football. His last season in charge was as exciting as any I've witnessed. It certainly wasn't just hoof ball.

 

Plan B can be a change of formation whilst still implying the tika taka.... Why not go two up front for example? What's wrong with throwing a few crosses in the box? Beckham at United anyone?

 

I thought you stopped reading at the second paragraph? So how do you know what he's saying? :dont know:

[Romey 1878]

http://toffeeweb.com/season/14-15/news/28953.html

 

How can he not be worried by the performances? How?!