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On 13/02/2019 at 19:35, StevO said:

He’s 21, it’s not like he’s a young kid. He is young, but he needs to be further along in his development if he wants to make it at Everton. That ship has sailed for me though. 

21 is young in footballing terms, players don't reach their peak till 27/28.

With a focus on youth and a lack of creativity in the side he still has time to make his way into the first team.

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Just now, London Blue said:

21 is young in footballing terms, players don't reach their peak till 27/28.

With a focus on youth and a lack of creativity in the side he still has time to make his way into the first team.

Yeah it is still young, but from what I’ve seen of him I just don’t think he’s good enough. I’d love to be wrong and him turn into a player like David Silva, but I’ll be shocked if it happens. I think we are holding on for a decent transfer fee. 

Do you honestly think we won’t just buy more players who are better than him? Focus on youth is all nice and good, but if we want to get to the levels Moshiri has talked about we won’t be waiting around. 

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11 hours ago, StevO said:

Yeah it is still young, but from what I’ve seen of him I just don’t think he’s good enough. I’d love to be wrong and him turn into a player like David Silva, but I’ll be shocked if it happens. I think we are holding on for a decent transfer fee. 

Do you honestly think we won’t just buy more players who are better than him? Focus on youth is all nice and good, but if we want to get to the levels Moshiri has talked about we won’t be waiting around. 

This is essentially what I mean about Davies as well although I do think Davies is a better player who has shown some good signs lately 

It's a tough and potentially costly game gambling on youth that don't have that crystal clear natural ability, hopefully though they do kick on but I fully get Steve's point 

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Example in the papers today - remember Suso? Not good enough for Liverpool at 21, now at 25 Spurs and Arsenal are rumoured to be in for him for £35m.

You just can't say for definite that players aren't going to be top class at 21.

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59 minutes ago, nogs said:

Example in the papers today - remember Suso? Not good enough for Liverpool at 21, now at 25 Spurs and Arsenal are rumoured to be in for him for £35m.

You just can't say for definite that players aren't going to be top class at 21.

Suso was never going to become a first teamer whilst Coutinho was there plus the lad was clearly a very naturally gifted player 

No one is saying you can definitely rule out a 20/21 year old, it's judging their current ability and whether they have the ability to step it up 

 

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7 hours ago, nogs said:

Example in the papers today - remember Suso? Not good enough for Liverpool at 21, now at 25 Spurs and Arsenal are rumoured to be in for him for £35m.

You just can't say for definite that players aren't going to be top class at 21.

He would have to prove himself over here for that point to be worth making IMO. There will be other examples though. 

The other thing is how many players do you hold onto to see if they make it that far? If you think our U23 squad holds probably 20 players. Where do you draw the line? No matter what you do, some players will slip through the net.

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12 minutes ago, Bailey said:

He would have to prove himself over here for that point to be worth making IMO. There will be other examples though. 

The other thing is how many players do you hold onto to see if they make it that far? If you think our U23 squad holds probably 20 players. Where do you draw the line? No matter what you do, some players will slip through the net.

There's tons of other examples. Kevin de Bruyne immediately springs to mind. And I'm not sure Dowell has played for our U23s in over a year, when he's not been on loan he's been in the first team squad. So we're not talking keeping every U23 player just in case. We're talking giving the very best prospects every chance to become £35m players with us. And that only happens by playing them. 

I think an example coming at it from the other way is Luke Garbutt. I have no idea what he is still doing on our books, he's 25 and has made five first team appearances. It's senseless, you either keep hold of young players and play them or let them go. He is the perfect example of how not to handle a player. 

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1 hour ago, nogs said:

There's tons of other examples. Kevin de Bruyne immediately springs to mind. And I'm not sure Dowell has played for our U23s in over a year, when he's not been on loan he's been in the first team squad. So we're not talking keeping every U23 player just in case. We're talking giving the very best prospects every chance to become £35m players with us. And that only happens by playing them. 

I think an example coming at it from the other way is Luke Garbutt. I have no idea what he is still doing on our books, he's 25 and has made five first team appearances. It's senseless, you either keep hold of young players and play them or let them go. He is the perfect example of how not to handle a player. 

KDB was already a promising player before he came to Chelsea rather than a young lad coming through the ranks. I guess Mustafi would be one, Duffy another. Im not sure I would say either of them are good enough for what we want but they both came good later in their careers. Neither would make an impact on this squad other than being a bench player.

As I said, the question is how long do you keep them for them to prove themselves and then whether keeping them will really make a difference. How good is Dowell really going to become, even at 23, 24, 25? The chance of him "making it" at the level we want is slim. Do we keep him and commit to playing him? Do we keep him going on loan each year? Do we just sell him on as its probably the best for the player? 

I think in an ideal world, you would like to see a player go on loan to a club for 2 or 3 years where he is playing regularly and doing well. In Dowell's case, hopefully get promoted with Sheffield and then stay there for another 12 months in the Premiership. Same with Holgate at West Brom. 

Whatever happens I am sure Brands will do a better job than Walsh!

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10 hours ago, nogs said:

There's tons of other examples. Kevin de Bruyne immediately springs to mind. And I'm not sure Dowell has played for our U23s in over a year, when he's not been on loan he's been in the first team squad. So we're not talking keeping every U23 player just in case. We're talking giving the very best prospects every chance to become £35m players with us. And that only happens by playing them. 

I think an example coming at it from the other way is Luke Garbutt. I have no idea what he is still doing on our books, he's 25 and has made five first team appearances. It's senseless, you either keep hold of young players and play them or let them go. He is the perfect example of how not to handle a player. 

I think Luke is more an example of how not to handle yourself when you want to have a long football career. 

The lad will have made loads of money at Everton, but his next club (if he gets one) will be way down the piramid as he’s not played for so long. 

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9 hours ago, Bailey said:

KDB was already a promising player before he came to Chelsea rather than a young lad coming through the ranks. I guess Mustafi would be one, Duffy another. Im not sure I would say either of them are good enough for what we want but they both came good later in their careers. Neither would make an impact on this squad other than being a bench player.

As I said, the question is how long do you keep them for them to prove themselves and then whether keeping them will really make a difference. How good is Dowell really going to become, even at 23, 24, 25? The chance of him "making it" at the level we want is slim. Do we keep him and commit to playing him? Do we keep him going on loan each year? Do we just sell him on as its probably the best for the player? 

I think in an ideal world, you would like to see a player go on loan to a club for 2 or 3 years where he is playing regularly and doing well. In Dowell's case, hopefully get promoted with Sheffield and then stay there for another 12 months in the Premiership. Same with Holgate at West Brom. 

Whatever happens I am sure Brands will do a better job than Walsh!

Yeah I think the long term loan idea is a good one. I think English clubs could start looking at sending young prospects abroad more for their development, maybe with the current trend of going to Germany that will happen. The Championship is a great league for learning how tough first team football really is but it definitely prioritises stamina over technical ability. I don't know if that is what a player like Dowell really nerds or not - toughen him up or let him go somewhere where his main attributes (i.e. a beaut of a left foot) can shine through and develop. 

I'm not sure I agree with you on Mustafi or Duffy though, given how poor our current CBs are I'd be quite happy with either of them. 

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On 14/02/2019 at 22:25, StevO said:

Yeah it is still young, but from what I’ve seen of him I just don’t think he’s good enough. I’d love to be wrong and him turn into a player like David Silva, but I’ll be shocked if it happens. I think we are holding on for a decent transfer fee. 

Do you honestly think we won’t just buy more players who are better than him? Focus on youth is all nice and good, but if we want to get to the levels Moshiri has talked about we won’t be waiting around. 

I think he can pick a pass, and has an eye for goal, and one hell of a shot, I think he has a good chance of making it.

I imagine that as he would be slotted to play in the free role behind the striker, when he ready to play there will be when Siggy is being moved on.

Also I think the priorities for spending are a striker, Gomes and a right back, if we have a chance of using a youth player then they will give them a chance.

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