Mason Holgate

[Paddock]

2 hours ago, nutmegwolf203 said:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/he-called-n-evertons-mason-11809267

As soon as this happened and I saw the replays I feared I knew the outcome. While this article is in no way conclusive, in terms of the FA investigation being done; they really didn't need a lip reading expert to confirm what many could see plainly. 

The push was immature. Just dumb. The same type of naive move we've been criticizing Mirallas for making during his whole Everton career. I remember seeing someone in the matchday thread say they "liked the push" or the passion it signified. Really? It was way too close to the touchline and it's a miracle he wasn't booked right away, but at the same time, Madley never had that match under control. This is going to look so messy once they finalize this investigation. I honestly don't know the rules here but perhaps since it was initiated by the officials there won't be anything retroactive against Holgate? I can see him getting a lengthy ban for a false accusation if that's even on the table.  

RF was speaking Portuguese, that'd be the first hurdle in even understanding him and the statement he most likely made wouldn't really sound like what MH is saying he heard. 

The reason I even bring this up is because 'crying wolf' in this situation helps no one. Justice and retribution in situations like this is already so rare. I bet Holgate realized he shouldn't have pushed Firmino and got caught up in the furor of the moment. At that point perhaps he misheard or embellished. I'm too familiar with this word to not know what it looks like being mouthed by someone. Perhaps MH just didn't want to deal with abuse via twitter and decided to step away, but personally, if I believed in my truth - I wouldn't back down for anything, especially from social media. 

I think he fucked up pretty bad and he knows it. 

Absolute bollocks- he doesn’t react at all to the first bit he says to him- he only reacts when Kennys heads in the way and nobody (as of yet) in the public domain has seen what else got said so how do you work out he’s lying??

What a crock of fucking shite that is- you have no idea what was said other than what you could see. One thing absolutely certain is that the way he reacted he 100% believes it was said- whether he has mis-heard or misinterpreted it I don’t know but absolutely no way has he made that up.

[Hafnia]

11 minutes ago, Paddock said:

Absolute bollocks- he doesn’t react at all to the first bit he says to him- he only reacts when Kennys heads in the way and nobody (as of yet) in the public domain has seen what else got said so how do you work out he’s lying??

What a crock of fucking shite that is- you have no idea what was said other than what you could see. One thing absolutely certain is that the way he reacted he 100% believes it was said- whether he has mis-heard or misinterpreted it I don’t know but absolutely no way has he made that up.

Andy dunn the journo has been on Sunday supplement basically repeating this bullshit.

The inflammatory comment was made when John Jo's head was in the way.

It will rely on witnesses not video evidence. 

[MikeO]

What's weird for me is that he didn't get a card of any sort, particularly after the ref consulted with the fourth official. There were two plain as day yellows, one for the push and the other for manhandling Madley, that's 100% a sending off and yet no action was taken? I was convinced he was walking. Can only assume he was treated leniently due to some sort of provocation; but in that case why was no action taken against Firmino? Be really interested to see the outcome of all this.

[markjazzbassist]

27 minutes ago, MikeO said:

What's weird for me is that he didn't get a card of any sort, particularly after the ref consulted with the fourth official. There were two plain as day yellows, one for the push and the other for manhandling Madley, that's 100% a sending off and yet no action was taken? I was convinced he was walking. Can only assume he was treated leniently due to some sort of provocation; but in that case why was no action taken against Firmino? Be really interested to see the outcome of all this.

i didn't understand why both weren't given a yellow.  firmino provoked and holgate acted, yellows and now they have to calm down or they're outta there.  ref did a horrible job.  textbook case of how not to ref a match or control the game.

[nutmegwolf203]

6 hours ago, hafnia said:

He made twitter posts to his mates referring as faggot and batty boy in 2012 when he was at school.... ffs... I mean yeah if he did it now as an adult the throw the book at him but he was at school! Kids don't understand the depth or importance of such things at 15/16. 

I'm sure all of us have said many simioar things at that daft age. 

No, I personally never have. I think homophobic is homophobic at any age. 

[Loz]

Good for you!  Some of the things I said and did as a schoolboy and up into my twenties are cringe-worthy now.and I do not just mean the Bob Latchford perm. 

[Hafnia]

12 minutes ago, nutmegwolf203 said:

No, I personally never have. I think homophobic is homophobic at any age. 

Let's just pretend we are all normal human beings and not all socially aware and immature at 15.... I think I fitted into that group.  What he did is probably something you would see from loads of kids.... watch the Inbetweeners for example. Just daft and very likely nothing nasty behind it at all.   Kids follow a behaviour... a culture of nastiness and cruel banter. 

[Haiku]

It's ridiculous that all that fight against racism, homophobia, sexism etc only make them stronger. It was a day when the forbidden N word described the native inhabitants of Niger valley, yet transformed into a deadly insult because of some freaks wearing white hoods century and a half ago.

[Palfy]

15 minutes ago, hafnia said:

Let's just pretend we are all normal human beings and not all socially aware and immature at 15.... I think I fitted into that group.  What he did is probably something you would see from loads of kids.... watch the Inbetweeners for example. Just daft and very likely nothing nasty behind it at all.   Kids follow a behaviour... a culture of nastiness and cruel banter. 

You have made a valid point when you mentioned the inbetweeners, comedy and comedians have a free pass to be close to the mark which to the majority of the people is excepted in the name of humour, but Holgate yourself and I make a comment in jest that may let's say not be PC we get jumped all over, why can't I make a joke about being gay yet Alan Carr, Jimmy Carr and many others can to be honest I think I'm funny so I still do.

[nutmegwolf203]

I'm just addressing the topic. It's not anti-Holgate, it's just my take on the situation. I agree the lip reading can only be done on the footage being seen. I just don't believe he decided to switch to English with the ref and other players between them to say something even more disgusting. Sure, I hope I'm wrong.

If he was told to take down his twitter then so be it. 

This is just my opinion on what I can see and the logic I'd apply to the situation, given the language he was using. It's not in defense of Firmino; I just read the whole episode as messy. If Firmino's guilty then how on earth are they going to prove that with Madley not even flinching at a sickeningly derogatory word being said over his shoulder? Furthermore, his friends and teammates on the Everton side of things react but they're not outraged. They side with him in general, anybody would. But when he's explaining things to them it's as if they're hearing it for the first time. Believe me you get that word hurled at you and no one else seems to care and things get real lonely all of a sudden. With that being said Madley should be ashamed for not throwing him out of the match. If Mason could hear it why not him? Or does verbal abuse of that sort not get punished in matches? (genuine question) So if it did happen and he performed that well for the rest of the match then more power to him. It's not easy. I like Holgate; think he's a good player and I love the club and you guys can gang up on me and think it's anti-Holgate rhetoric or whatever. My biggest fear is just a kid getting in over his head and providing more naysayers with ammunition to combat the effort that true activist make for equality.

Again, if Holgate's side of the story is corroborated I'll hold my hands up and you can all say I told you so, as it seems you're so eager to do. The alternative will be horrible and can undo a lot of good work. For the record I want the former scenario to be true. 

If Madley heard anything and didn't react in any way, but was tasked to do so as an official, HE should be investigated. It's easy to be uppity on the internet about these situations, but how many bigots are called out in real time. Hopefully I'm making myself clear here. He was there and still Mason is the only one reacting to the insult. He had to tell him what was said. Ni***r is a word in the English language, simple for those present to understand; where was the alarm from him or are we to suspect the presiding match official is so tone deaf or racist himself it didn't phase him? 

You may think I'm the enemy here, but I'm just trying to sift through an all too familiar scene to understand it better. 

[nutmegwolf203]

39 minutes ago, Loz said:

Good for you!  Some of the things I said and did as a schoolboy and up into my twenties are cringe-worthy now.and I do not just mean the Bob Latchford perm. 

 

33 minutes ago, hafnia said:

Let's just pretend we are all normal human beings and not all socially aware and immature at 15.... I think I fitted into that group.  What he did is probably something you would see from loads of kids.... watch the Inbetweeners for example. Just daft and very likely nothing nasty behind it at all.   Kids follow a behaviour... a culture of nastiness and cruel banter. 

Not trying to paint myself as a saint, just being honest. That's all.

[Palfy]

14 minutes ago, nutmegwolf203 said:

 

Not trying to paint myself as a saint, just being honest. That's all.

What are your feelings about seeing a comedian tell a joke about race, gender, sexuality whether gay or straight.

[nutmegwolf203]

More to the point of when things are reported. If Mason is proven right in all this then I hope we see some changes in how things are handled during matches by officials. Firmino should have been off right away and Madley should be reprimanded for ignoring that type of verbal abuse. They send managers in to the stands for less. 

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Based on some more recent articles it seem Holgate's been found out for some past homophobic tweets, that's why he deleted his account. The internet knows all. 

He called his mate a batty boy when he was 15, Nothing in it for me

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/he-called-n-evertons-mason-11809267
As soon as this happened and I saw the replays I feared I knew the outcome. While this article is in no way conclusive, in terms of the FA investigation being done; they really didn't need a lip reading expert to confirm what many could see plainly. 
The push was immature. Just dumb. The same type of naive move we've been criticizing Mirallas for making during his whole Everton career. I remember seeing someone in the matchday thread say they "liked the push" or the passion it signified. Really? It was way too close to the touchline and it's a miracle he wasn't booked right away, but at the same time, Madley never had that match under control. This is going to look so messy once they finalize this investigation. I honestly don't know the rules here but perhaps since it was initiated by the officials there won't be anything retroactive against Holgate? I can see him getting a lengthy ban for a false accusation if that's even on the table.  
RF was speaking Portuguese, that'd be the first hurdle in even understanding him and the statement he most likely made wouldn't really sound like what MH is saying he heard. 
The reason I even bring this up is because 'crying wolf' in this situation helps no one. Justice and retribution in situations like this is already so rare. I bet Holgate realized he shouldn't have pushed Firmino and got caught up in the furor of the moment. At that point perhaps he misheard or embellished. I'm too familiar with this word to not know what it looks like being mouthed by someone. Perhaps MH just didn't want to deal with abuse via twitter and decided to step away, but personally, if I believed in my truth - I wouldn't back down for anything, especially from social media. 
I think he fucked up pretty bad and he knows it. 

It is quite obvious that the bit that Holgate reacted to wasn’t caught on camera so the lip reader was wasting his time

[nutmegwolf203]

Just now, Palfy said:

What are your feelings about seeing a comedian tell a joke about race, gender, sexuality whether gay or straight.

Well, comedians take liberties and I'm a fan of some who use some crude language as I assume we all are, but in general I'm not in to crass humor. But at the same time you're talking about constructs that make up modern society as we know it, hard to avoid those topics if you want to tell a narrative of who we are right now, for better or worse. 

My social circles are really diverse so I'm lucky in that way, but I think that's conflating the fact that you can speak of being queer without using the word faggot. I'm pretty sure it's possible. But the point is, young or not, it was used as a negative, it wasn't celebratory in those tweets. That, as many have said can be a commonality in young people who learn those terms and the contexts to use them in from influential sources. 

Beyond all this, I'm really not here to judge his past tweets. Based on the series of events and the way people tend to cover their bases after high profile situations it did seem like a PR move, but as people have pointed out it was suggested by the authorities. I wish kids didn't learn to apply these terms so casually, because they don't sit casually with people on the other side. I could talk about that forever and not say anything we don't already know. 

[nutmegwolf203]

Just so I can properly give my stance on the twitter thing:

• I don't even know what batty boy means, don't care to look it up or have someone explain.
• Sure, he was young(er) than he is now
• I was merely saying that the internet is a deep archive and for anybody claiming discrimination in this day and age, especially about race, because race is a topic that's often bypassed in terms of social progress, it is incredibly common for people to try and slander your character. That's all. 

[Shukes]

I would be sacked as a professional in no time haha.

Im Sexist, I think women are different than men.

Im racist, animals are different than humans.

Im prejudice, I hate Liverpool and Love Everton.

Im homophobic, I call gay people gay!

Im basically fucked! 

[Palfy]

What Firmino did if Holgate is right was in a fit of anger let his guard down and show his true colours, if you harbour those thoughts and lose control they tend to come to the surface,  but Holgate calling a friend a batty boy is banter and a joke between friends, it does not make him homophobic because if it does then 90% of the comedians we see on our TV's would have been charged.

[Hafnia]

38 minutes ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

He called his mate a batty boy when he was 15, Nothing in it for me

 

Ali G..... nothing in it for me either.

A bit like the lad off Inbetweeners calling Neil's dad a bumder. 

I used to skit at people for having ginger hair when in as 15.... I just grew out of it. 

[Romey 1878]

4 minutes ago, patto said:

What I was thinking was why did Firmino shout at MH in Portuguese when he must surely speak English now he's been here about 3years

Because Portuguese is his first language?

I know that if I spoke another language I’d still call someone a cunt in English. 

[Haiku]

10 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Because Portuguese is his first language?

I know that if I spoke another language I’d still call someone a cunt in English. 

This discussion becomes hilarious considering the N word is just the same in almost every language including Portuguese. 

[Cornish Steve]

1 hour ago, Palfy said:

What are your feelings about seeing a comedian tell a joke about race, gender, sexuality whether gay or straight.

Personally, I get very frustrated that so many terrible things are said in the name of humour. When I object, the response is always, "don't you have a sense of humour?" Yes, I do have a sense of humour, but I don't agree that humour should be used as cover. It's not right, even though many disagree with me.

I get where nutmeg is coming from, but I do think it's way too soon to jump to any conclusions. Let's hope the FA take this seriously and impartially. Racism remains a major problem in Western societies. Taking the matter seriously in sports can go a long way to moving us forward in society in general.

[Romey 1878]

43 minutes ago, Haiku said:

This discussion becomes hilarious considering the N word is just the same in almost every language including Portuguese. 

Sorry for not being knowledgable on how you call people a nigger in different languages. 

[Bill]

Does anybody actually know what was said or are you all just guessing.??

[MikeO]

13 minutes ago, Bill said:

Does anybody actually know what was said or are you all just guessing.??

Nobody knows apart from those who were there, I don't think any TT member was on the pitch  at the time. It's obviously all speculation but plainly Mason heard (or thought he heard) something seriously abusive; there's no other rational explanation for his reaction. I'm not sure the truth will ever come out.

[pete0]

Considering how close the ref is surely all that was said would have been caught on his mike? 

Baffling that he missed it. Baffling that he didn't book either of them. 

[nutmegwolf203]

1 hour ago, Cornish Steve said:

Personally, I get very frustrated that so many terrible things are said in the name of humour. When I object, the response is always, "don't you have a sense of humour?" Yes, I do have a sense of humour, but I don't agree that humour should be used as cover. It's not right, even though many disagree with me.

I get where nutmeg is coming from, but I do think it's way too soon to jump to any conclusions. Let's hope the FA take this seriously and impartially. Racism remains a major problem in Western societies. Taking the matter seriously in sports can go a long way to moving us forward in society in general.

This is really my point. I'm not trying to call him a liar. But this really does have to be 100%. I've been called dishonest in these situations and there is nothing gained from a lack of proof. That's all I'm saying.

Sorry to make it seem like I was throwing him to the wolves. I hope he is backed up in all this, always want to support our players and I hope justice is served. I won't say any more on the subject. 

[Cornish Steve]

37 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Considering how close the ref is surely all that was said would have been caught on his mike? 

Baffling that he missed it. Baffling that he didn't book either of them. 

It is baffling. If words had not been said, Holgate would have received a yellow or red card. This implies the ref knew exactly what was said and was trying to defuse the situation. That's a very tough call on his part, and I'm not into blaming him at all at this point. Let's see how it plays out.

[pete0]

11 minutes ago, Cornish Steve said:

It is baffling. If words had not been said, Holgate would have received a yellow or red card. This implies the ref knew exactly what was said and was trying to defuse the situation. That's a very tough call on his part, and I'm not into blaming him at all at this point. Let's see how it plays out.

If that was me I'd be clarifying it straight away. I'd have expected them to have a conversation on the lines of I never called you that, I called you puta..  because you pushed me you little prick. 

The rules mean a yellow for the push. For me it's a shit bag foul so they should change the rules to make it a red. Not gonna lie though I do enjoy the bite it adds to the atmosphere when one of ours does it. But other way round I'm fuming. 

Firminio reaction is caused by Holgate, if I got pushed I'd be pissed too. If it wasn't so aggressive I'd say no yellow but as it's so aggressive it's a yellow maybe even verging on a red. If what Holgate obviously thinks he heard was said no need to explain why that's a red all day and much more. 

Referee has a lot to explain.