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1 hour ago, Bailey said:

He must be a bit disappointed that someone like Mason Mount and Nathanial Chalobah are being called up to the England side ahead of him. 

The Mason Mount decision is ridiculous. 

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12 minutes ago, Romey 1878 said:

Not so sure about that. But there’s no way Chalobah should be there before him. 

I think it's a bit of a joke when they bang on about English players not getting game time in the Prem then pick a kid playing in the Championship over lads who are playing week in week out in the top division. It sends out the wrong message, Dowell banged in a load of goals on the Championship last season, what has Mount done that he didn't? I'm not saying I'd stick Davies in the senior side either, but the likes of him and Lewis Cook should be in front of a kid who has never played a game in the Prem. 

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Chalobah is a very odd decision tbh but Mount is a talent he has attributes Davies doesn't he's very Lampard/Gerrard esq  

Not saying Davies won't improve but as players and what they possess naturally is completely different, he'll go onto bigger things he's just stuck in the Chelsea waste pipe as many young lads are and have been 

 

 

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At the moment though Mount has only proven it in the Championship. I am not saying he wont go on to do it in the Prem or internationally but there are a lot of promising young players that only ever become good championship players. A bit like Will Hughes really.

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21 hours ago, Bailey said:

At the moment though Mount has only proven it in the Championship. I am not saying he wont go on to do it in the Prem or internationally but there are a lot of promising young players that only ever become good championship players. A bit like Will Hughes really.

This will definitely be a situation more like Maddison 

Hughes was/is a flash in the pan highlight reel player was never much more this lad is a completely different type of player 

Agreed though it is only the Championship not that it isn'tt a tough and unforgiving league like but he does look very good 

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He gets a lot of shit and I think it’s harsh. He’s not exactly my favourite player- do I think he should arart? Probably not- Captain? Defo not but he’s 20, young and learning. Some of our fans on Twitter especially are utter utter gobshites the grief they give the kid.

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8 hours ago, Paddock said:

He gets a lot of shit and I think it’s harsh. He’s not exactly my favourite player- do I think he should arart? Probably not- Captain? Defo not but he’s 20, young and learning. Some of our fans on Twitter especially are utter utter gobshites the grief they give the kid.

I'm not on Twitter, don't see the point or need for it TBH, are they deffo Everton fans or trolls?

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Wasn't in the u21 squad today for their win.  Anyone know what is up with that?  Hopefully not another injured midfielder from the international break (Gana scored but was injured in Senegal's last game and is not starting in their game today).

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51 minutes ago, plaidharper said:

Wasn't in the u21 squad today for their win.  Anyone know what is up with that?  Hopefully not another injured midfielder from the international break (Gana scored but was injured in Senegal's last game and is not starting in their game today).

Think it was more a case of give a few other players a chance against a very average Scotland team.

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1 hour ago, duncanmckenzieismagic said:

Really don't get the hate for Davies. Far from the worst player last week and laughable to say Schneiderlin was noticeably better. 

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1 minute ago, Romey 1878 said:

Really surprised at his performance yesterday. Being League 1 standard I expected a decent game against a League 2 side. Instead I'm forced to reevaluate his level.

Still not a fan, eh?

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I just don't think he's good enough. Whether it's down to the change in managers/poor managers at a key development stage I don't know but to get where we want to be we need better.  A loan deal may be an idea. 

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14 minutes ago, Matt said:

Still not a fan, eh?

He is utter shite, Matt.

I'm definitely willing to admit I was wrong about him because I thought he was better than what he actually is. But he's nowhere near being good enough.

Honestly thought he'd have a good game yesterday against a lower league side, but instead it was the usual little boy lost routine where he does absolutely nothing.

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Echo what Mark says 

He shows nothing that can be built upon for me 

No pace no vision or range of passing, 99% of the time turns the ball over backwards or sideways and slows play right down 

He's a plodder who's not cut out for this level and you can tell he never will be imo 

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After 2 years he’s still got this tendency to rush forward blindly and over commit himself, get hoodwinked and find himself way out of position.  Got caught out and exposed the team several times yesterday. Just hasn’t kicked on in the way that we hoped. Still young enough to develop but needs more effective coaching or the right loan, I feel.

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2 minutes ago, badaids said:

After 2 years he’s still got this tendency to rush forward blindly and over commit himself, get hoodwinked and find himself way out of position.  Got caught out and exposed the team several times yesterday. Just hasn’t kicked on in the way that we hoped. Still young enough to develop but needs more effective coaching or the right loan, I feel.

That’s more how I see it too

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I have been a big supporter of his but his last two performances in particular have been crap. 

When a player is on the fringes and they get a chance they need to come in show why they should be starting but he does the opposite.

Thats the same for many young players but he needs to start pulling his finger out. If Gueye or Gomes get injured we are fucked.

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I liked him when he came on the scene. Liked his look, socks around his ankles always wanting the ball, confident. Now I just see a decent footballer that screams championship player all over him. I’d love to be proved wrong but has anyone seen him play a killer ball threaded through to a striker or something that makes you think wow? 

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He doesn’t have anything to his game unfortunately. He’s not good enough for this level. So many English players fail to kick on....it would be interesting to know how dedicated some are off the field, or whether they are always out, etc, or whether they lose the motivation once nailing a big contract. You can’t have millions of Harry Kanes but we’ve seen so many just stand still

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I’d send him to Spain for a bit to be honest. He’s got the tenacity and bite. He is technically a good player just needs to find that little bit extra.

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He needs game time, and a manager to decide what type of midfielder he is, box to box, attacking midfielder, or central midfielder and then help him develop.

I think a loan is the best option for him. He is still only 20 after all. He has the skills, just needs the time to develop, maybe away from the critical eye of Goodison.  

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1 hour ago, Btay said:

I’d send him to Spain for a bit to be honest. He’s got the tenacity and bite. He is technically a good player just needs to find that little bit extra.

Academy’s in Spain have better players in there teenage groups 

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33 minutes ago, London Blue said:

He needs game time, and a manager to decide what type of midfielder he is, box to box, attacking midfielder, or central midfielder and then help him develop.

I think a loan is the best option for him. He is still only 20 after all. He has the skills, just needs the time to develop, maybe away from the critical eye of Goodison.  

That's the problem he has very little about him to suggest he's anything but a plodding central midfielder

He certainly isn'tt a box to box mid nor an attacking mid either 

I'm genuinely curious as to what skills some see in him? 

Does he have pace? No 

Good feet and skills? Not a bad touch etc but very little else in the technical department

Range of passing? No 

Vision or able to turn the ball over positively? No 

He seems a good lad with a good work rate but I just don't see what some see in him that would suggest that he or a manaher will suddenly change his natural abilities 

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Last season when we needed to keep hold of the ball and waste time Davies was the player the team looked for. No doubt the coaches would have practiced keeping hold of the ball near the corner flag in training and Davies must have been the best. 

Said it yesterday but what player has played well next to Gana? You look at Gomes' good performances and he's had to take on two or three players at a time. You look at the bad and it's because he's lost the ball when the two of three players have come at him. 

How any one can moan Davies doesn't do anything with the ball yet don't say anything about Gana is beyond me. Night and day difference in their passing quality. 

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54 minutes ago, pete0 said:

Last season when we needed to keep hold of the ball and waste time Davies was the player the team looked for. No doubt the coaches would have practiced keeping hold of the ball near the corner flag in training and Davies must have been the best. 

Said it yesterday but what player has played well next to Gana? You look at Gomes' good performances and he's had to take on two or three players at a time. You look at the bad and it's because he's lost the ball when the two of three players have come at him. 

How any one can moan Davies doesn't do anything with the ball yet don't say anything about Gana is beyond me. Night and day difference in their passing quality. 

Your credibility is shrinking each day. 

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4 hours ago, Paddock said:

I just don’t think he’s good enough. Sorry but I just don’t see him adding anything to the side when he plays. He’s a headless chicken.

Makes me want to cry after "that" goal against City:(.

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19 minutes ago, sibdane said:

He needs to go out on loan. His progress has really stalled (or even digressed). I hate it for him, because when he first burst onto the scene he showed some real potential.

He could just be a late bloomer like Ossie was. I’m not writing him off but he does have a lot to learn and he needs to play to do that

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Just now, Matt said:

He could just be a late bloomer like Ossie was. I’m not writing him off but he does have a lot to learn and he needs to play to do that

I feel like he could be. I'm definitely not giving up on him just yet. He is only 20 after all.

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1 hour ago, Matt said:

He could just be a late bloomer like Ossie was. I’m not writing him off but he does have a lot to learn and he needs to play to do that

I feel like its the opposite. He came onto the scene and looked like he had the world at his feet but never really progressed as expected. What we thought was the bottom of his first team level may have been nearer the top.

As I said in the other thread, I am coming round to the idea of him going out and playing football at a lower level where he can learn how to control games.

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20 hours ago, Matt said:

He could just be a late bloomer like Ossie was. I’m not writing him off but he does have a lot to learn and he needs to play to do that

Ossie was shite though, and unfortunately its looking like Davies is the same. I really hope im wrong but just cant see him ever becoming any good.

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4 hours ago, aaron said:

Ossie was shite though, and unfortunately its looking like Davies is the same. I really hope im wrong but just cant see him ever becoming any good.

Ossie was far from shite. He was a footballers footballer. Wasn’t fancy.. though he scored some wonders... but was the finest piece ina jigsaw puzzle. The one that fits in with no effort at all. 

Silky player Ozzie.

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Ozzie was underrated big time. I like to look at it this way. Barkley was a far superior player in my humble opinion and was hit and miss for us. He won’t last long at Chelsea either. His lack of football intelligence stands out in more profile games. Davies just hasn’t got the all round game you need in the premier league 

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6 hours ago, aaron said:

Ossie was shite though, and unfortunately its looking like Davies is the same. I really hope im wrong but just cant see him ever becoming any good.

Rubbish. Ossie should’ve been better except he was continuously played out of position. But he was far from shite. 

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2 hours ago, Matt said:

Rubbish. Ossie should’ve been better except he was continuously played out of position. But he was far from shite. 

Yep this. Should have been in the middle of the park but still did a job for us. If he was Spanish or Brazilian people would have thought a lot more of him as a technical player.

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4 hours ago, Shukes said:

Ossie was far from shite. He was a footballers footballer. Wasn’t fancy.. though he scored some wonders... but was the finest piece ina jigsaw puzzle. The one that fits in with no effort at all. 

Silky player Ozzie.

First name on the teamsheet for years imo.

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Ossie did a great job. Seemed every year Moyes would buy a replacement, give them a few games and end up putting Ossie back in again. Also got better with age, great feet and great mentality to go with it. 

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18 hours ago, aaron said:

Ossie was shite though, and unfortunately its looking like Davies is the same. I really hope im wrong but just cant see him ever becoming any good.

Ha yeah pal whatever. 

Think the comparison with Ossie is useful though - shows its ridiculous to write a player off at 21. What was Ossie doing at that age? He was on loan at Carlisle, and I bet plenty of Everton fans had put him in the 'not good enough' category by then. He went on to play more than 350 games for Everton, enough said. 

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It’s the need for instant success now that doesn’t give players like this a chance. 

I’m just as bad with Dowell, and most of the time DCL, I don’t think they will be top level. I hope they are though I can’t see it. 

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Are we not romanticising about Ossie a little? He was a great club player but he spent 50% of the season being fantastic and the other 50% of the season being frustrating as hell.

Whilst I understand the argument that players should be kept on to for longer because they might go on to be decent players but Ossie is a very rare example, and I still dont think he would get into this side and he might not even get on the bench.

The interesting thing with him is that he only played 32 times at a lower level on loan (all comps) across 2 seasons. I'm not sure why he took so long to go on loan, apart from a season long injury a couple of years before. At Derby he played roughly 1500 minutes on his second loan.

With Osman I think its more important to look at his minutes because we kept him as an older young player for a reason, presumably because he was talented, and when he got his chance on loan he took it and played plenty of minutes.

In comparison Tom has played over 4000 premier league minutes alone,  DCL over 3900 league football minutes and Kenny has had over 4000 league football minutes. These lads have also had a lot of minutes in various cups and for the international teams.

As a better example of late developers, Kane had roughly 3000 minutes at a lower level before he broke into the Spurs team.

I am not saying that our 3 players wont improve because I would hope they would as they get more experience and learn about their own game more, but I expect that it is rare for a player to suddenly kick on to become an above average premier league player with that amount of time under their belts.

 

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24 minutes ago, Finn balor said:

Good comparison due to their lack of pace but I think ossie was underrated but was more creative than Davies. I’m struggling to see what the best part of toms game is 

Tom Davies doesn’t have a game. He just kicks a football. Usually to no one. 

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Bailey - how is saying 'Ossie wasn't shite' 'romanticising' him?? And you say 'he was fantastic 50% of a season' - well in what world does being fantastic 19 games out of 38 in the Premier League over a decade not make you a very good player? Not world class, not top 4 material maybe, but very good?

I think Steve has it bang on talking about the demand for instant success. Where the fuck does that come from? You don't click your fingers and win league titles and cups, you don't get youngsters becoming superstars when fans scream 'shite' coz they find it hard to adapt to elite football, you don't start calling for a managers head after half a season in charge without turning into a tin pot outfit like Nottingham Forest who have fuck all chance of getting back 'where they belong' until they ditch their idiotic sense of entitlement and realise that success comes from planning, painstaking work, patience and perseverance. 

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1 hour ago, Romey 1878 said:

Tom Davies doesn’t have a game. He just kicks a football. Usually to no one. 

All footballers essentially "Just kick a football". Tom Davies's  pass completion is quite good.

He's 20 years old, been captain of Everton and an England 21 regular, let's not write him off just yet.

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25 minutes ago, nogs said:

Bailey - how is saying 'Ossie wasn't shite' 'romanticising' him?? And you say 'he was fantastic 50% of a season' - well in what world does being fantastic 19 games out of 38 in the Premier League over a decade not make you a very good player? Not world class, not top 4 material maybe, but very good?

I think Steve has it bang on talking about the demand for instant success. Where the fuck does that come from? You don't click your fingers and win league titles and cups, you don't get youngsters becoming superstars when fans scream 'shite' coz they find it hard to adapt to elite football, you don't start calling for a managers head after half a season in charge without turning into a tin pot outfit like Nottingham Forest who have fuck all chance of getting back 'where they belong' until they ditch their idiotic sense of entitlement and realise that success comes from planning, painstaking work, patience and perseverance. 

I was referring to the general points on Ossie not Romey's post directly.

I am probably guilty of romanticising him myself by saying fantastic but Ossie was regularly pelted by fans for half the season for not being good enough for various reasons. I feel like there is more love for him now than there was when he was playing because when we look back we think about that goal in Europe as opposed to the 30 daisy cutters a season.

In respect of your second paragraph, the difficulty is deciding when you do give up on a player. How many players that have left at 18/19 have gone on to become top 10 PL players (or similar abroad). Mustafi is probably the only one and that's debatable IMO. Duffy has done well for himself but he is at the highest level he will get to.  Those two wouldnt have been bad players to have on the bench. Vic wasnt good enough, Vaughan and maybe Rodwell might have been if they didnt keep getting injured, Forshaw, Bidwell, Ledson and Jutkovich have made careers for themselves but they arent going to move us forward in anyway.

The worst thing for me is that the ones that have come through have spent their careers elsewhere. Rooney, Barkley and Stones all came through the academy (loosely in the latters case), made their name and then moved on.

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