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MC11

Martinez - Direction?

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thank you. the system is outdated. what next the players bring back "frosted tips" hair style and parachute pants? it's not 2009 Barca, it's 2016 and that has been sussed out. Clearly evident by the shit teams beating us due to the known "park the bus" kryptonite to barca's style. best team we've had in years, moyes had the likes of neville, straq, bily, etc on the bench some real shit and we have mirallas lennon naisy and we need more time? half the teams in the prem wish they had our squad, it's not their fault, its the manager.

I agree with this crazy 'Murican!

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Thanks to peteO for this link. The analysis in this article hits home, repeatedly. Repeatedly. Easily the most pointed yet sensible critique I have read.

 

RM's "endless capacity to embrace phantom positives is a hollow virtue." Check. "His ability to sidestep salient negatives is a rich source of frustration." Check. Everton "are never more than one mis-step away from falling over themselves.... [and] have come to specialize in self-defeat." Check and check. "The story is [Everton's] sloppiness and the growing suspicion that these players aren't being held to anything like a high enough standard." Check. "There are never any visible consequences of defeat and players don't appear to suffer as a result of under-performance." Check.

 

"This team needs to grow a winning texture." Check. "That's a manager's job and, from the week-to-week evidence, it's a task which Martinez is evidently neglecting." Triple check.

 

If Roberto's philosophy, strategy, and tactics do not in fact change but nevertheless soon produce wins, maybe it's just been some bad luck, and the above analysis will be shown to have been overwrought, silly panic. I'd prefer that he show some flexibility, beginning Saturday with a somewhat altered starting team and active use of 3 substitutes.

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So, only people who have done something in the game can have an opinion? Do you not have opinions?

 

Pretty much the ones I pay attention too, I apply it across all aspects of my life too not just football.

Medical opinions from people in medicine, financial opinions from people who have actually made some money etc etc

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On the one hand the critics of Martinez say that Everton have the best team for years and on the other hand they say Martinez should go. But the present team is largely down to Martinez.

He joined Everton in May 2013 the following September he signed Romelu Lukaku on loan in an audacious swoop under the noses of West Brom.

He signed Gerry Deulofeu on loan from Barcelona ~ not mant managers would have been able to do.

John Stones and Barkley were at the club when he came but he has developed them from teenagers to the players they are today.

He brought in Robles, Kone and McCarthy from Wigan ~ they have all been successes ~ in fact I can't think of anyone he has brought in who has been a failure.

Martinez has done all this on a relative shoestring and made millions for Everton Football club.

Who do the doom-mongers want to replace Roberto? Brendan Rogers, Louis Val Gaal or other celebrity managers who have lost their clubs hundreds of millions. The first thing a celebrity manager will ask is what is my transfer budget.

 

Please don't think I think he is perfect He grates me in his post match interviews. nobody's perfect so I put up with that

I think he should use substitutes better. every match 14 players should be used, if there are no enforced Substitutes the bench should be used at roughly 60mins, 70mins, and 80mins. Again I put up with that rather than call for him to be sacked.

 

Last season everthing went wrong for Leicester, but this season everything is going right for them.

Lets hope the tide will turn for Everton in the New year starting with 9 points over the Festive Season

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Pretty much the ones I pay attention too, I apply it across all aspects of my life too not just football.

Medical opinions from people in medicine, financial opinions from people who have actually made some money etc etc

Why do you come on a forum then? I mean, it's a place for people to share their opinions and the majority of us have never been involved in the game in any real way.

 

You don't have to have been involved in the game, or achieved anything in the game, to be right about a subject. The same way having achieved something in the game doesn't make you right either.

 

Just seems a bit of an odd stance to me. Oh well!

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Why do you come on a forum then? I mean, it's a place for people to share their opinions and the majority of us have never been involved in the game in any real way.

 

You don't have to have been involved in the game, or achieved anything in the game, to be right about a subject. The same way having achieved something in the game doesn't make you right either.

 

Just seems a bit of an odd stance to me. Oh well!

 

Because occasionally there is some chat other than "should the manager be sacked or not."

I asked for opinions on what Gerry was doing when Bournemouth scored that first goal in the Gerry thread, people are more interested in discussing why it was Roberto's fault we lost that game though.

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Because occasionally there is some chat other than "should the manager be sacked or not."

I asked for opinions on what Gerry was doing when Bournemouth scored that first goal in the Gerry thread, people are more interested in discussing why it was Roberto's fault we lost that game though.

 

Surely nobody on here would be qualified to tell you what Gerry was doing? :P;)

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Surely nobody on here would be qualified to tell you what Gerry was doing? :P;)

 

Funnily enough I've seen my kids take up better defensive positions, I should ask them.

 

Regardless, its the 80th minute and were 2 nil up away from home, what are both these players still doing on the field?

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Funnily enough I've seen my kids take up better defensive positions, I should ask them.

More to the point! I thought Kone was the main culprit for that goal. If he'd have closed him down he wouldn't have been able to shoot!

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A blast from the past...

 


[James McCarthy] has played 13 games where he has played +45 minutes and there are 13 games where he never played or didn't complete more than 45 minutes. So its a good sample size.

  • In the 13 games he has featured as per criteria above. We have won 23 points - 1.76 per game. In the 13 games he never featured we have won 9 points - 0.69 per game.
  • In the 13 games he featured we scored 28 goals - 2.15 per game. In the games he never we scored 11 goals - 0.84 per game
  • In the 13 games he featured we conceded 18 goals - 1.38 per game. The games he didnt play we conceded 19.
top and bottom, of it MC is he is soooooo important to us,

 

 

Personally, I suggest this has been a factor in the last few games. James McCarthy is a key member of this team.

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In the Echo

'Funes Mori, 24, has revealed that the Blues continue to work hard on defending corners and free-kicks in training and know they must become nastier.We have been conceding set-piece goals recently and so we have been working on that and we know we need to maintain our concentration and focus in those situations, he said.'

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In the Echo

'Funes Mori, 24, has revealed that the Blues continue to work hard on defending corners and free-kicks in training and know they must become nastier.We have been conceding set-piece goals recently and so we have been working on that and we know we need to maintain our concentration and focus in those situations, he said.'

The words horse and bolt spring to mind but at least the penny has finally dropped

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In the Echo

'Funes Mori, 24, has revealed that the Blues continue to work hard on defending corners and free-kicks in training and know they must become nastier.We have been conceding set-piece goals recently and so we have been working on that and we know we need to maintain our concentration and focus in those situations, he said.'

That would take common sense to believe. Sadly most Evertonians can only read black and white and believe that we don't EVER train on defending or attacking free kicks.

 

Must be true because Ossie said ;-)

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Its not panic. Its not willing to settle for 10th place mid-table shite. That's where were headed again.

 

traditionally we've only gotten stronger as the season goes on, even last season after Feb we improved. So mid table this season will really surprise me.

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traditionally we've only gotten stronger as the season goes on, even last season after Feb we improved. So mid table this season will really surprise me.

If it's a tradition it's surely not down to the manager.... All the big boys away from home in second half of season

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If it's a tradition it's surely not down to the manager.... All the big boys away from home in second half of season

im not sayin its goin to be easy, but this season we've corrected the boring bullshit play of last season, we just need to tighten up. As frustrating as this season has been at times we've improved massively. There's progress, it's just annoying to suffer through.

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More to the point! I thought Kone was the main culprit for that goal. If he'd have closed him down he wouldn't have been able to shoot!

 

He sees Gerry coming across and moves back to block any pass back to the corner

 

Wa2PeM4.png

 

Gerry then abandons his post and goes for a jog up field

 

FaqL5NG.png

 

The way I see it Kone had two jobs to do, Gerry had one.

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He sees Gerry coming across and moves back to block any pass back to the corner

 

Wa2PeM4.png

 

Gerry then abandons his post and goes for a jog up field

 

FaqL5NG.png

 

The way I see it Kone had two jobs to do, Gerry had one.

Disagree, if you'd shown the frame as the balls been cleared and before King? takes a touch Kone is running straight towards him. Most Likely Gerry's seen that and is banking on Kone winning the challenge.

 

What Kone then does is suicidal. He completely stops closing him down to try and cover the bloke who's taken the corner! And that's what you get for having a striker playing LM, he had an absolute stinker of a second half there.

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We'll have to agree to disagree then, at no stage is Kone closing him down he's always looking to stop the pass back to the corner because Gerry has reacted first and is best placed to make the challenge.

It's a split second thing, position dictates Kone has choices to make, Gerry doesn't.

 

bgZh281.png

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Although much of the more negative talk has come from sitting at mid table like we were last Christmas, for me the feeling is totally different this year.

 

Statically we are better off (basic league stats anyway). Compare us today to were we sat after game 20 (end of Xmas fixtures), we already have more points, have scored more goals and (unless we concede an average of 3 in the next 3 games) are better off defensively (hard to believe!!!). Currently we are 6 points off 4th...end of Xmas last season we were 15 points off 4th and just 4 off the relegation places.

 

That stuff can be brushed off quite easily. The reason I don't feel quite so frustrated now as I did last season is because of our overall play. Last season we definately deserved no more than we had. The style was aweful, the players were shite. Everything was so below par. I remember arguing that we weren't in a relegation fight, that it would get better, simply because it couldn't get any worse!!! That was my only argument. It had to get better.. it would click and we would go on a run. We didn't of course. This season all the pieces are in place, the football is there, the players are doing better. I see no reason to panic and every reason to believe we will do better.

 

Yes, it is massively frustrating to see us concede the same type of goals again and again. It is massively frustrating to see us throw away games that we are in control of. But these are things that both manager and players can learn from and improve. It's not from a lack of talent from either.

 

Martinez has built a good squad here. I don't see how sacking him mid season would help us. It's a pointless exercise unless we were in the depths of a relegation fight. There would be a fair argument at the end of the season, if we finish mid table, to seriously assess the whole thing and see where we are at. At that point, if we are still continously conceding at corners, throwing games away etc, then questions should be asked.

 

We still have a Cup semi final to play in. Still are in the chasing pack up top. It's all still to play for. Nobody is running away this season, results are all over the place.

 

We'll see.

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Although much of the more negative talk has come from sitting at mid table like we were last Christmas, for me the feeling is totally different this year.

 

Statically we are better off (basic league stats anyway). Compare us today to were we sat after game 20 (end of Xmas fixtures), we already have more points, have scored more goals and (unless we concede an average of 3 in the next 3 games) are better off defensively (hard to believe!!!). Currently we are 6 points off 4th...end of Xmas last season we were 15 points off 4th and just 4 off the relegation places.

 

That stuff can be brushed off quite easily. The reason I don't feel quite so frustrated now as I did last season is because of our overall play. Last season we definately deserved no more than we had. The style was aweful, the players were shite. Everything was so below par. I remember arguing that we weren't in a relegation fight, that it would get better, simply because it couldn't get any worse!!! That was my only argument. It had to get better.. it would click and we would go on a run. We didn't of course. This season all the pieces are in place, the football is there, the players are doing better. I see no reason to panic and every reason to believe we will do better.

 

Yes, it is massively frustrating to see us concede the same type of goals again and again. It is massively frustrating to see us throw away games that we are in control of. But these are things that both manager and players can learn from and improve. It's not from a lack of talent from either.

 

Martinez has built a good squad here. I don't see how sacking him mid season would help us. It's a pointless exercise unless we were in the depths of a relegation fight. There would be a fair argument at the end of the season, if we finish mid table, to seriously assess the whole thing and see where we are at. At that point, if we are still continously conceding at corners, throwing games away etc, then questions should be asked.

 

We still have a Cup semi final to play in. Still are in the chasing pack up top. It's all still to play for. Nobody is running away this season, results are all over the place.

 

We'll see.

 

Pretty much how I feel.

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Although much of the more negative talk has come from sitting at mid table like we were last Christmas, for me the feeling is totally different this year.

 

Statically we are better off (basic league stats anyway). Compare us today to were we sat after game 20 (end of Xmas fixtures), we already have more points, have scored more goals and (unless we concede an average of 3 in the next 3 games) are better off defensively (hard to believe!!!). Currently we are 6 points off 4th...end of Xmas last season we were 15 points off 4th and just 4 off the relegation places.

 

That stuff can be brushed off quite easily. The reason I don't feel quite so frustrated now as I did last season is because of our overall play. Last season we definately deserved no more than we had. The style was aweful, the players were shite. Everything was so below par. I remember arguing that we weren't in a relegation fight, that it would get better, simply because it couldn't get any worse!!! That was my only argument. It had to get better.. it would click and we would go on a run. We didn't of course. This season all the pieces are in place, the football is there, the players are doing better. I see no reason to panic and every reason to believe we will do better.

 

Yes, it is massively frustrating to see us concede the same type of goals again and again. It is massively frustrating to see us throw away games that we are in control of. But these are things that both manager and players can learn from and improve. It's not from a lack of talent from either.

 

Martinez has built a good squad here. I don't see how sacking him mid season would help us. It's a pointless exercise unless we were in the depths of a relegation fight. There would be a fair argument at the end of the season, if we finish mid table, to seriously assess the whole thing and see where we are at. At that point, if we are still continously conceding at corners, throwing games away etc, then questions should be asked.

 

We still have a Cup semi final to play in. Still are in the chasing pack up top. It's all still to play for. Nobody is running away this season, results are all over the place.

 

We'll see.

100% this for me.

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Although much of the more negative talk has come from sitting at mid table like we were last Christmas, for me the feeling is totally different this year.

 

Statically we are better off (basic league stats anyway). Compare us today to were we sat after game 20 (end of Xmas fixtures), we already have more points, have scored more goals and (unless we concede an average of 3 in the next 3 games) are better off defensively (hard to believe!!!). Currently we are 6 points off 4th...end of Xmas last season we were 15 points off 4th and just 4 off the relegation places.

 

That stuff can be brushed off quite easily. The reason I don't feel quite so frustrated now as I did last season is because of our overall play. Last season we definately deserved no more than we had. The style was aweful, the players were shite. Everything was so below par. I remember arguing that we weren't in a relegation fight, that it would get better, simply because it couldn't get any worse!!! That was my only argument. It had to get better.. it would click and we would go on a run. We didn't of course. This season all the pieces are in place, the football is there, the players are doing better. I see no reason to panic and every reason to believe we will do better.

 

Yes, it is massively frustrating to see us concede the same type of goals again and again. It is massively frustrating to see us throw away games that we are in control of. But these are things that both manager and players can learn from and improve. It's not from a lack of talent from either.

 

Martinez has built a good squad here. I don't see how sacking him mid season would help us. It's a pointless exercise unless we were in the depths of a relegation fight. There would be a fair argument at the end of the season, if we finish mid table, to seriously assess the whole thing and see where we are at. At that point, if we are still continously conceding at corners, throwing games away etc, then questions should be asked.

 

We still have a Cup semi final to play in. Still are in the chasing pack up top. It's all still to play for. Nobody is running away this season, results are all over the place.

 

We'll see.

I would have to agree with most of that, the big issue for me though is that we are still so vulnerable at the back

It's a similar situation to the early Kendall side in the 80's. We have a very good group of young players and we are playing some great football but not getting the results we deserve . I honestly believe we are only a couple of players away from being an excellent side. Back then it was Gray and Reid maybe this time it just needs a top keeper and Yarmelenko

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I would have to agree with most of that, the big issue for me though is that we are still so vulnerable at the back

It's a similar situation to the early Kendall side in the 80's. We have a very good group of young players and we are playing some great football but not getting the results we deserve . I honestly believe we are only a couple of players away from being an excellent side. Back then it was Gray and Reid maybe this time it just needs a top keeper and Yarmelenko

A keeper that instills confidence would be a massive addition and the prospect of Yarmelenko is mouth watering.

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I would have to agree with most of that, the big issue for me though is that we are still so vulnerable at the back

It's a similar situation to the early Kendall side in the 80's. We have a very good group of young players and we are playing some great football but not getting the results we deserve . I honestly believe we are only a couple of players away from being an excellent side. Back then it was Gray and Reid maybe this time it just needs a top keeper and Yarmelenko

Yes, agree with that. I had to go out the other night so rushed the original post...I didn't quite put all that I wanted. I missed out my areas of concern.

 

So, yeah, areas of concern are...

 

Defence: As you say, we still look vulnerable back there. The frustrating thing is seeing the same mistakes over and over. It starts to wear a bit thin. Fair enough, Martinez says players need to learn from their mistakes...but sometimes the learning needs to be forced, and not just allowed to happen 'as and when'. T-How is also starting to worry me a bit. I feel his reflexes are starting to slow down a bit.

 

Rotation of Players: I'm not a fan of continuous rotation, but I feel Martinez gives players who haven't performed a few too many games more. I think if a player has been a bit flat for 3 games on the bounce, say a Kone or a Barkley, they need to be benched and another given a chance. Otherwise, a natural human instinct to get complacent kicks in. On the flipside to that, the lads sat on the bench watching start to get agitated. Martinez needs to keep this squad on their toes to keep getting the best out of them.

 

Subs: Yep, seen it a few times now. The pattern of waiting, waiting, waiting. If the 10 players we have out there are struggling to kill the game off, get another one on, some fresh kegs and brains, with new ideas and skill sets. Rather than waiting for the opposition to get their tails up, and get back into the game. Be confident in your subs abilities and take the initiative!

 

I think they are my 3 main gripes with Martinez. I'm a fan of his, but I'm keen for him to keep progressing as a manager. And that means dealing with the above. I'm not a fan of these 'stubborn' remarks aimed at him as a put down, as I believe every manager is 'stubborn'...if they weren't, they wouldn't last in the game.

 

Although I'm a fan of his, and he has my full support, I wouldn't be happy with a mid table position come May. He deserves credit for the way he has built this squad. He just needs to make sure he is the man to get the best out of them.

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Surely surely surely Martinez has to realise how much this defending is costing us? It's not even that it needs big scale changes...the players are there, the talent is there, but something is going badly wrong. The players are so nervy and uncertain at the back.

 

It's not even an exaggeration to say that from the last handful of games we have done enough in our overall play to have 12 more points on the board, but we've let them go at the back.

 

It doesn't make sense to me that this keeps happening.

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First, the facts. In October we took 2 points from four games, admittedly against tough opponents, but poor nonetheless.

 

In November, we took an impressive 8 from four games. But the end of that run was the debacle at Bournemouth, when we managedto throw the game away twice.

 

Since then, in December, we have taken five points from five games, meaning we have taken a grand total of 15 points from 39 available in the past 3 months. In that period, we have only beaten the current bottom 3 and we have conceded 15 goals in 8 home games, including 7 in the last two (Leicester and Stoke).

 

Now after I calmed down and looked at the table, I noticed we are still miraculously only 5 points from 5th. I also thought about how we have a young team, full of potential, but inevitably prone to the sort of disastrous mistakes that are making me dread match days.

 

The question is, is Martinez capable of improving this young squad? And can he do so quickly enough to get us into Europe, which is all I see preventing Lukaku, Stones and Deu leaving? Defensively, no, not from what I have seen of us at the back the last 3 seasons. Lukaku must be crying himself tp sleep at playing the football of hislife only to see us fuck it up at the other end. I wouldn't blame him if he was looking for an out in January, his goals deserve better. And if I was Stones, I would be asking if Martinez was the manager to make me the world beater I should be, and deciding no he probably isn't.

 

Martinez now has to win a cup to have any chance of keeping this exciting young squad together. If he doesn't, we'll have gone backwards under him and should be looking elsewhere. The next 5 months (if not 2 weeks!) are all or nothing for him as our manager.

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I'm getting too angry to continue defending him. He's just a tanned Moyes who prefers out scoring rather than out defending. Arrogant beyond belief.

Spot on. Not using subs again, sjambok ice defending with some amazing players and sticking with a shit goalie when he's consistently terrible. plays McCarthy when he's still injured and gets re-injured and I'm just fed up.

 

I hope the Americans shell out big money and being in a top notch manager.

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I will be honest out of the managers being touted for the job when Moyes left I wanted Martinez. My big worry was his woeful record defensively. I remember Haf putting up a strong defence of him saying that was due mainly to Alcaraz being out most of the season and so I was open minded about him ( although in hindsight it would appear that if Alcaraz had stayed fit they would have been down by Christmas! )

All my fears are now being realised and as much as I like his brand of football I firmly believe that every good team is built from the back and it's abundantly clear we are an absolute mess defensively

 

I honestly don't think he can take us forward and if the new owners want to bring in their own manager I wouldn't exactly cry myself to sleep

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Guest rusty747

Its not about Martinez ability. It's about his arrogance and his refusal to try to fix something that is so obviously broken - namely, our defence.

 

He has to go. Soon.

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Here are a few more facts for you nogs -

 

Our win against Newcastle was our first away win for three months.

 

We haven't won two league games in a row this season.

 

We also haven't managed to beat a side that's above us in the league.

 

Facts don't lie , we are a mid table team unfortunately

 

Hate to say it but there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Moyes would have this squad in the top 4

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I'm still behind Roberto. He has the potential to be an excellent coach if he improves on the weak areas of his management - game management and substitutions, defensive coaching, squad rotation.

 

What is a concern that these weak areas have showed very little sign of improving. Some of them, in fact, have looked worse.

 

I don't want us to become another typical football club though and sack managers when they could be given more time. Don't look at other clubs and think "this underachievement would never be accepted at Spurs etc." - clubs who sack manager after manager are the ones getting it wrong, we should stick with this guy until it becomes 100% conclusive that he cannot take us forward.

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Facts don't lie , we are a mid table team unfortunately

 

Hate to say it but there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Moyes would have this squad in the top 4

The only problem with that is that Moyes wouldn't have put this squad together.

 

We really need to stop these Moyes references. Not solely aimed at you Dunc, but whoever else makes them. He had a good decade, thanks and all that.

 

He's had 2 jobs since he left us...sacked from them both.

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Guest rusty747

It is a conundrum sn't it. Roberto has definitely brought some talented players to Everton. And he is 'phenomenal' at coaching them from an attacking point of view.

 

The problem is, he is 'phucking awphul' at coaching them dephensively.

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Martinez has brought some good players in - no doubt. However and a big however, he is failing to produce results on the pitch.

 

In reference to Moyes, LVG looks to be going the same way he did albeit after spending a lot more money and being given much more time. Sociedad are only going one way.

 

I'd love to see Moyes with this squad.

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I'm really hoping he address' this defensive frailty. Just watched his post match interview. He looks pissed off. Good to hear him say it's not good enough at the back and needs improving. Please dort it out!

 

And the reason I really want him to sort it out is because he has done quite a bit right this season. We are playing some real good football. He is getting some good stuff out of most players.

 

A lot of credit is going to Lukaku. But you look at that whole attacking quartet and there are some brilliant efforts this season. Lukaku has 15 league goals, 4 assists, Geri 2 goals, 7 assists, Barkley 6 goals, 7 assists and Kone 5 goals, 4 assists. You can't ask for more than that.

 

Behind them, Barry is having a very good season, McCarthy is overall doing fine and Cleverly has covered very well.

 

The back 4 individually no one is having a nightmare and the talent is there.

 

As I said earlier, I fear that this defensive malarkey will destroy all his other good work. That will be a real shame.

 

I do still support him, I don't think he needs sacking now, and if this defensive crap carries on right to the end of the season, then no, a cup run wouldn't mask over it.

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Guest rusty747

If Moyes would accept the position of defensive coach I would have him back tomorrow. But I cant see him accepting such a position and I dont think Roberto would go for the 'row z' school of dephending as he wants to play tippy tappy across the back phive.

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