Martinez - Direction?

[Newty82]

Although much of the more negative talk has come from sitting at mid table like we were last Christmas, for me the feeling is totally different this year.

 

Statically we are better off (basic league stats anyway). Compare us today to were we sat after game 20 (end of Xmas fixtures), we already have more points, have scored more goals and (unless we concede an average of 3 in the next 3 games) are better off defensively (hard to believe!!!). Currently we are 6 points off 4th...end of Xmas last season we were 15 points off 4th and just 4 off the relegation places.

 

That stuff can be brushed off quite easily. The reason I don't feel quite so frustrated now as I did last season is because of our overall play. Last season we definately deserved no more than we had. The style was aweful, the players were shite. Everything was so below par. I remember arguing that we weren't in a relegation fight, that it would get better, simply because it couldn't get any worse!!! That was my only argument. It had to get better.. it would click and we would go on a run. We didn't of course. This season all the pieces are in place, the football is there, the players are doing better. I see no reason to panic and every reason to believe we will do better.

 

Yes, it is massively frustrating to see us concede the same type of goals again and again. It is massively frustrating to see us throw away games that we are in control of. But these are things that both manager and players can learn from and improve. It's not from a lack of talent from either.

 

Martinez has built a good squad here. I don't see how sacking him mid season would help us. It's a pointless exercise unless we were in the depths of a relegation fight. There would be a fair argument at the end of the season, if we finish mid table, to seriously assess the whole thing and see where we are at. At that point, if we are still continously conceding at corners, throwing games away etc, then questions should be asked.

 

We still have a Cup semi final to play in. Still are in the chasing pack up top. It's all still to play for. Nobody is running away this season, results are all over the place.

 

We'll see.

[MikeO]

Although much of the more negative talk has come from sitting at mid table like we were last Christmas, for me the feeling is totally different this year.

 

Statically we are better off (basic league stats anyway). Compare us today to were we sat after game 20 (end of Xmas fixtures), we already have more points, have scored more goals and (unless we concede an average of 3 in the next 3 games) are better off defensively (hard to believe!!!). Currently we are 6 points off 4th...end of Xmas last season we were 15 points off 4th and just 4 off the relegation places.

 

That stuff can be brushed off quite easily. The reason I don't feel quite so frustrated now as I did last season is because of our overall play. Last season we definately deserved no more than we had. The style was aweful, the players were shite. Everything was so below par. I remember arguing that we weren't in a relegation fight, that it would get better, simply because it couldn't get any worse!!! That was my only argument. It had to get better.. it would click and we would go on a run. We didn't of course. This season all the pieces are in place, the football is there, the players are doing better. I see no reason to panic and every reason to believe we will do better.

 

Yes, it is massively frustrating to see us concede the same type of goals again and again. It is massively frustrating to see us throw away games that we are in control of. But these are things that both manager and players can learn from and improve. It's not from a lack of talent from either.

 

Martinez has built a good squad here. I don't see how sacking him mid season would help us. It's a pointless exercise unless we were in the depths of a relegation fight. There would be a fair argument at the end of the season, if we finish mid table, to seriously assess the whole thing and see where we are at. At that point, if we are still continously conceding at corners, throwing games away etc, then questions should be asked.

 

We still have a Cup semi final to play in. Still are in the chasing pack up top. It's all still to play for. Nobody is running away this season, results are all over the place.

 

We'll see.

 

Pretty much how I feel.

[Shukes]

Although much of the more negative talk has come from sitting at mid table like we were last Christmas, for me the feeling is totally different this year.

 

Statically we are better off (basic league stats anyway). Compare us today to were we sat after game 20 (end of Xmas fixtures), we already have more points, have scored more goals and (unless we concede an average of 3 in the next 3 games) are better off defensively (hard to believe!!!). Currently we are 6 points off 4th...end of Xmas last season we were 15 points off 4th and just 4 off the relegation places.

 

That stuff can be brushed off quite easily. The reason I don't feel quite so frustrated now as I did last season is because of our overall play. Last season we definately deserved no more than we had. The style was aweful, the players were shite. Everything was so below par. I remember arguing that we weren't in a relegation fight, that it would get better, simply because it couldn't get any worse!!! That was my only argument. It had to get better.. it would click and we would go on a run. We didn't of course. This season all the pieces are in place, the football is there, the players are doing better. I see no reason to panic and every reason to believe we will do better.

 

Yes, it is massively frustrating to see us concede the same type of goals again and again. It is massively frustrating to see us throw away games that we are in control of. But these are things that both manager and players can learn from and improve. It's not from a lack of talent from either.

 

Martinez has built a good squad here. I don't see how sacking him mid season would help us. It's a pointless exercise unless we were in the depths of a relegation fight. There would be a fair argument at the end of the season, if we finish mid table, to seriously assess the whole thing and see where we are at. At that point, if we are still continously conceding at corners, throwing games away etc, then questions should be asked.

 

We still have a Cup semi final to play in. Still are in the chasing pack up top. It's all still to play for. Nobody is running away this season, results are all over the place.

 

We'll see.

100% this for me.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Although much of the more negative talk has come from sitting at mid table like we were last Christmas, for me the feeling is totally different this year.

 

Statically we are better off (basic league stats anyway). Compare us today to were we sat after game 20 (end of Xmas fixtures), we already have more points, have scored more goals and (unless we concede an average of 3 in the next 3 games) are better off defensively (hard to believe!!!). Currently we are 6 points off 4th...end of Xmas last season we were 15 points off 4th and just 4 off the relegation places.

 

That stuff can be brushed off quite easily. The reason I don't feel quite so frustrated now as I did last season is because of our overall play. Last season we definately deserved no more than we had. The style was aweful, the players were shite. Everything was so below par. I remember arguing that we weren't in a relegation fight, that it would get better, simply because it couldn't get any worse!!! That was my only argument. It had to get better.. it would click and we would go on a run. We didn't of course. This season all the pieces are in place, the football is there, the players are doing better. I see no reason to panic and every reason to believe we will do better.

 

Yes, it is massively frustrating to see us concede the same type of goals again and again. It is massively frustrating to see us throw away games that we are in control of. But these are things that both manager and players can learn from and improve. It's not from a lack of talent from either.

 

Martinez has built a good squad here. I don't see how sacking him mid season would help us. It's a pointless exercise unless we were in the depths of a relegation fight. There would be a fair argument at the end of the season, if we finish mid table, to seriously assess the whole thing and see where we are at. At that point, if we are still continously conceding at corners, throwing games away etc, then questions should be asked.

 

We still have a Cup semi final to play in. Still are in the chasing pack up top. It's all still to play for. Nobody is running away this season, results are all over the place.

 

We'll see.

I would have to agree with most of that, the big issue for me though is that we are still so vulnerable at the back

It's a similar situation to the early Kendall side in the 80's. We have a very good group of young players and we are playing some great football but not getting the results we deserve . I honestly believe we are only a couple of players away from being an excellent side. Back then it was Gray and Reid maybe this time it just needs a top keeper and Yarmelenko

[Deacs]

I would have to agree with most of that, the big issue for me though is that we are still so vulnerable at the back

It's a similar situation to the early Kendall side in the 80's. We have a very good group of young players and we are playing some great football but not getting the results we deserve . I honestly believe we are only a couple of players away from being an excellent side. Back then it was Gray and Reid maybe this time it just needs a top keeper and Yarmelenko

A keeper that instills confidence would be a massive addition and the prospect of Yarmelenko is mouth watering.

[Newty82]

I would have to agree with most of that, the big issue for me though is that we are still so vulnerable at the back

It's a similar situation to the early Kendall side in the 80's. We have a very good group of young players and we are playing some great football but not getting the results we deserve . I honestly believe we are only a couple of players away from being an excellent side. Back then it was Gray and Reid maybe this time it just needs a top keeper and Yarmelenko

Yes, agree with that. I had to go out the other night so rushed the original post...I didn't quite put all that I wanted. I missed out my areas of concern.

 

So, yeah, areas of concern are...

 

Defence: As you say, we still look vulnerable back there. The frustrating thing is seeing the same mistakes over and over. It starts to wear a bit thin. Fair enough, Martinez says players need to learn from their mistakes...but sometimes the learning needs to be forced, and not just allowed to happen 'as and when'. T-How is also starting to worry me a bit. I feel his reflexes are starting to slow down a bit.

 

Rotation of Players: I'm not a fan of continuous rotation, but I feel Martinez gives players who haven't performed a few too many games more. I think if a player has been a bit flat for 3 games on the bounce, say a Kone or a Barkley, they need to be benched and another given a chance. Otherwise, a natural human instinct to get complacent kicks in. On the flipside to that, the lads sat on the bench watching start to get agitated. Martinez needs to keep this squad on their toes to keep getting the best out of them.

 

Subs: Yep, seen it a few times now. The pattern of waiting, waiting, waiting. If the 10 players we have out there are struggling to kill the game off, get another one on, some fresh kegs and brains, with new ideas and skill sets. Rather than waiting for the opposition to get their tails up, and get back into the game. Be confident in your subs abilities and take the initiative!

 

I think they are my 3 main gripes with Martinez. I'm a fan of his, but I'm keen for him to keep progressing as a manager. And that means dealing with the above. I'm not a fan of these 'stubborn' remarks aimed at him as a put down, as I believe every manager is 'stubborn'...if they weren't, they wouldn't last in the game.

 

Although I'm a fan of his, and he has my full support, I wouldn't be happy with a mid table position come May. He deserves credit for the way he has built this squad. He just needs to make sure he is the man to get the best out of them.

[Finn balor]

We won't get a goalie till at least the summer. I'd go all out for dembele at Fulham this kid is gonna be a superstar. Would be nice to think we have first dibs after loaning them Garbutt

[MC11]

One Direction - Harry

[MC11]

Wrong direction

[Newty82]

This defensive stuff has gone too far.

 

This could turn out to be Martinez undoing.

 

It can't carry on.

[Matt]

I'm getting too angry to continue defending him. He's just a tanned Moyes who prefers out scoring rather than out defending. Arrogant beyond belief.

[Shukes]

I think we need to get Keegan in.

[Romey 1878]

Today has pushed me over the edge.

[Mogsy]

Down!!! When u got someone who scores every game all you need is a solid defence, frustrating

[Newty82]

Surely surely surely Martinez has to realise how much this defending is costing us? It's not even that it needs big scale changes...the players are there, the talent is there, but something is going badly wrong. The players are so nervy and uncertain at the back.

 

It's not even an exaggeration to say that from the last handful of games we have done enough in our overall play to have 12 more points on the board, but we've let them go at the back.

 

It doesn't make sense to me that this keeps happening.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Newty82

[nogs]

First, the facts. In October we took 2 points from four games, admittedly against tough opponents, but poor nonetheless.

 

In November, we took an impressive 8 from four games. But the end of that run was the debacle at Bournemouth, when we managedto throw the game away twice.

 

Since then, in December, we have taken five points from five games, meaning we have taken a grand total of 15 points from 39 available in the past 3 months. In that period, we have only beaten the current bottom 3 and we have conceded 15 goals in 8 home games, including 7 in the last two (Leicester and Stoke).

 

Now after I calmed down and looked at the table, I noticed we are still miraculously only 5 points from 5th. I also thought about how we have a young team, full of potential, but inevitably prone to the sort of disastrous mistakes that are making me dread match days.

 

The question is, is Martinez capable of improving this young squad? And can he do so quickly enough to get us into Europe, which is all I see preventing Lukaku, Stones and Deu leaving? Defensively, no, not from what I have seen of us at the back the last 3 seasons. Lukaku must be crying himself tp sleep at playing the football of hislife only to see us fuck it up at the other end. I wouldn't blame him if he was looking for an out in January, his goals deserve better. And if I was Stones, I would be asking if Martinez was the manager to make me the world beater I should be, and deciding no he probably isn't.

 

Martinez now has to win a cup to have any chance of keeping this exciting young squad together. If he doesn't, we'll have gone backwards under him and should be looking elsewhere. The next 5 months (if not 2 weeks!) are all or nothing for him as our manager.

[Matt]

I can see Moyes coming back, a season later than I predicted (albeit as a joke)

[Romey 1878]

Here are a few more facts for you nogs -

 

Our win against Newcastle was our first away win for three months.

 

We haven't won two league games in a row this season.

 

We also haven't managed to beat a side that's above us in the league.

[markjazzbassist]

I'm getting too angry to continue defending him. He's just a tanned Moyes who prefers out scoring rather than out defending. Arrogant beyond belief.

Spot on. Not using subs again, sjambok ice defending with some amazing players and sticking with a shit goalie when he's consistently terrible. plays McCarthy when he's still injured and gets re-injured and I'm just fed up.

 

I hope the Americans shell out big money and being in a top notch manager.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

I will be honest out of the managers being touted for the job when Moyes left I wanted Martinez. My big worry was his woeful record defensively. I remember Haf putting up a strong defence of him saying that was due mainly to Alcaraz being out most of the season and so I was open minded about him ( although in hindsight it would appear that if Alcaraz had stayed fit they would have been down by Christmas! )

All my fears are now being realised and as much as I like his brand of football I firmly believe that every good team is built from the back and it's abundantly clear we are an absolute mess defensively

 

I honestly don't think he can take us forward and if the new owners want to bring in their own manager I wouldn't exactly cry myself to sleep

[HKR toffee]

Martinez direction straight out the fucking door hopefully had enough of the Spanish prick and his Bullshit

[Guest rusty747]

Its not about Martinez ability. It's about his arrogance and his refusal to try to fix something that is so obviously broken - namely, our defence.

 

He has to go. Soon.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Here are a few more facts for you nogs -

 

Our win against Newcastle was our first away win for three months.

 

We haven't won two league games in a row this season.

 

We also haven't managed to beat a side that's above us in the league.

 

Facts don't lie , we are a mid table team unfortunately

 

Hate to say it but there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Moyes would have this squad in the top 4

Edited December 28, 2015 by duncanmckenzieismagic

[adziom]

I'm still behind Roberto. He has the potential to be an excellent coach if he improves on the weak areas of his management - game management and substitutions, defensive coaching, squad rotation.

 

What is a concern that these weak areas have showed very little sign of improving. Some of them, in fact, have looked worse.

 

I don't want us to become another typical football club though and sack managers when they could be given more time. Don't look at other clubs and think "this underachievement would never be accepted at Spurs etc." - clubs who sack manager after manager are the ones getting it wrong, we should stick with this guy until it becomes 100% conclusive that he cannot take us forward.

[Newty82]

 

Facts don't lie , we are a mid table team unfortunately

 

Hate to say it but there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Moyes would have this squad in the top 4

The only problem with that is that Moyes wouldn't have put this squad together.

 

We really need to stop these Moyes references. Not solely aimed at you Dunc, but whoever else makes them. He had a good decade, thanks and all that.

 

He's had 2 jobs since he left us...sacked from them both.

[Guest rusty747]

It is a conundrum sn't it. Roberto has definitely brought some talented players to Everton. And he is 'phenomenal' at coaching them from an attacking point of view.

 

The problem is, he is 'phucking awphul' at coaching them dephensively.

[MC11]

Martinez has brought some good players in - no doubt. However and a big however, he is failing to produce results on the pitch.

 

In reference to Moyes, LVG looks to be going the same way he did albeit after spending a lot more money and being given much more time. Sociedad are only going one way.

 

I'd love to see Moyes with this squad.

[Newty82]

I'm really hoping he address' this defensive frailty. Just watched his post match interview. He looks pissed off. Good to hear him say it's not good enough at the back and needs improving. Please dort it out!

 

And the reason I really want him to sort it out is because he has done quite a bit right this season. We are playing some real good football. He is getting some good stuff out of most players.

 

A lot of credit is going to Lukaku. But you look at that whole attacking quartet and there are some brilliant efforts this season. Lukaku has 15 league goals, 4 assists, Geri 2 goals, 7 assists, Barkley 6 goals, 7 assists and Kone 5 goals, 4 assists. You can't ask for more than that.

 

Behind them, Barry is having a very good season, McCarthy is overall doing fine and Cleverly has covered very well.

 

The back 4 individually no one is having a nightmare and the talent is there.

 

As I said earlier, I fear that this defensive malarkey will destroy all his other good work. That will be a real shame.

 

I do still support him, I don't think he needs sacking now, and if this defensive crap carries on right to the end of the season, then no, a cup run wouldn't mask over it.

[Guest rusty747]

If Moyes would accept the position of defensive coach I would have him back tomorrow. But I cant see him accepting such a position and I dont think Roberto would go for the 'row z' school of dephending as he wants to play tippy tappy across the back phive.

[markjazzbassist]

9 points off 4th, 9 points off bottom 3. Mid table side with one of the most talented sides. That's how you judge a manager. Look at ranieri. Mahrez, vardy the only real class players. Drink water and schmeichel are solid too. But he gets the most out of them and the system is designed to do so. to me that's the sign of a good managers same with watford. Same with palace. Those rosters are average. Managers are the difference for them. Not so for us.