Martinez - Direction?

[Chach]

being a successful business man

 

Pretty sure he's a mob accountant mate.

Hopefully he's going to make offers that people cant refuse.

[MC11]

I'm still tipping us to finish 8th and win the cup

I have us 12th & knocked out in the semi

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

And we could have a brilliant first season under a new guy and all think he was the answer to all our prayers.

 

Like we did two years back.

It's looking increasingly like that first season was down to the Moyes effect

[Hafnia]

It's looking increasingly like that first season was down to the Moyes effect

 

I call it the "new manager effect" - not the David Moyes effect, Moyes effectively left us in the January that year.

 

David Moyes never got us Barry, McCarthy, Deulofeu, Lukaku, who were part of a far more attractive team going forward...

 

I call the David Moyes effect taking title winners and making them a laughing stock all in the space of a few months.

 

Next up Nigel Pearson will be wanting a Premier league winners medal...

 

I want Martinez gone for the same reason as I wanted Moyes gone - being unable to change footballing philosophy when other managers have sussed you out.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

Thing is Mike, I was on the same bus as you with the kendall 83 comparisons.

 

Thing is... kendall learned from his errors. He addressed his mistakes - Martinez appears to have no idea what he is doing any more. The alarm bells rang when 2-0 up at home to West ham and he took a midfielder off for a new half fit striker... fucking insanity. We've seen him do odd things before - that was negligence.

 

For me it was a defining moment in his Everton job. It was like a pilot safely flying his plane into land on auto pilot after a nice flight and he then thought "let's go manual and try a couple of maneuvers"... passengers being sick, alarms going. They get off the plane and think "I'm not flying again"

I honestly think things were better in 1983

 

Kendall was building his squad and we had some excellent young players coming through, the likes of Sheedy, Stevens, Sharp, McMahon and Ratcliffe

 

We just didn't have a goal scorer and had no leaders , then in came Reid and Gray and the rest is history. Kendall didn't change the way we played when those 2 came in it all just clicked

 

The problem with Martinez' side is we look so unbalanced . It's his philosophy rather than missing players that is the issue, although a Reidy type leader wouldn't go a miss

 

I just don't think his philosophy works and he is showing no signs of budging from that , so I don't think it matters who we sign nothing will change

[dlblue]

 

Pretty sure he's a mob accountant mate.

Hopefully he's going to make offers that people cant refuse.

 

either way its an improvement surely!

[dlblue]

 

I call it the "new manager effect" - not the David Moyes effect, Moyes effectively left us in the January that year.

 

David Moyes never got us Barry, McCarthy, Deulofeu, Lukaku, who were part of a far more attractive team going forward...

 

I call the David Moyes effect taking title winners and making them a laughing stock all in the space of a few months.

 

Next up Nigel Pearson will be wanting a Premier league winners medal...

 

I want Martinez gone for the same reason as I wanted Moyes gone - being unable to change footballing philosophy when other managers have sussed you out.

 

 

I think it was a bit of both, Moyes certainly left a more defensive mindset which was completely forgotten come Martinez second season.

 

I always expected us to be average defensively under Martinez but i also thought we would be great going forward, So far there have only been glimpses of that.

[Hafnia]

I honestly think things were better in 1983

 

Kendall was building his squad and we had some excellent young players coming through, the likes of Sheedy, Stevens, Sharp, McMahon and Ratcliffe

 

We just didn't have a goal scorer and had no leaders , then in came Reid and Gray and the rest is history. Kendall didn't change the way we played when those 2 came in it all just clicked

 

The problem with Martinez' side is we look so unbalanced . It's his philosophy rather than missing players that is the issue, although a Reidy type leader wouldn't go a miss

 

I just don't think his philosophy works and he is showing no signs of budging from that , so I don't think it matters who we sign nothing will change

 

I only got to see Everton in late 1984 when the fans knew we had a team ready to compete - my first game was meant to be the one against Sheff Wed where Inchy got done in a tackle by Marwood and Reid put Marwood in the ambulance that arrived for Heath. Yes - we do miss that Reid character - who alongside Ratcliffe, Van Den Hauwe, Sharp and Gray would not allow us to be bullied or second best to anything.

 

I made the next one 5-0 vs Forest.

 

My brother said it felt like Kendall identified where he needed to improve and did it well.

 

Martinez can't and won't.

[MikeO]

It's looking increasingly like that first season was down to the Moyes effect

 

Moyes averaged 57 points in his last three seasons with us and then we got 72 when he left, think it's a bit of a stretch to put that improvement down to him personally; though he did gift us six in the United games, I'll give him that.

[StevO]

I think we saw some of Roberto's attacking style, in front of a back five well drilled on how to defend from years under Moyes.

 

It was the perfect balance for me, but one half has eroded and we are left with five good players at the back who don't know how to work together. The biggest worry is that the goals have dried up a bit too.

[MikeO]

I honestly think things were better in 1983

 

Kendall was building his squad and we had some excellent young players coming through, the likes of Sheedy, Stevens, Sharp, McMahon and Ratcliffe

 

We just didn't have a goal scorer and had no leaders , then in came Reid and Gray and the rest is history. Kendall didn't change the way we played when those 2 came in it all just clicked

 

The problem with Martinez' side is we look so unbalanced . It's his philosophy rather than missing players that is the issue, although a Reidy type leader wouldn't go a miss

 

I just don't think his philosophy works and he is showing no signs of budging from that , so I don't think it matters who we sign nothing will change

 

I obviously wasn't in Liverpool or at games outside of London back then so had far less interaction with Evertonians than I do now via the miracle of the internet. But my feeling is that the feeling against Kendall was far more toxic than it is currently for Martinez. He was 100% certain on the verge of the sack and would have got it had it not been for the cup runs/Kevin Brock. Martinez, whatever people may wish, isn't yet on the verge of being sacked.

 

Today we are playing great football at times, back then we were shit week in week out playing in front of a half empty Goodison. Today we're still full to virtual capacity.

 

You may well (probably are) all be right and I'm wrong but if we sack him we'll never know, but you could say that about any sacking.

 

First and foremost I want success as we all do, if it's with another manager I'll be delighted but I'd also be happy if Kendall's "click" hit Roberto,

 

(And a Reidy would be welcome, I agree)

[c1982]

I think we saw some of Roberto's attacking style, in front of a back five well drilled on how to defend from years under Moyes.

 

It was the perfect balance for me, but one half has eroded and we are left with five good players at the back who don't know how to work together. The biggest worry is that the goals have dried up a bit too.

My thoughts exactly.

 

It'd never happen but I'd have Moyes and Martinez as joint managers... Moyes our home/defensive tactic manager and Martinez away/attacking tactic manager.

[dlblue]

I think we saw some of Roberto's attacking style, in front of a back five well drilled on how to defend from years under Moyes.

 

It was the perfect balance for me, but one half has eroded and we are left with five good players at the back who don't know how to work together. The biggest worry is that the goals have dried up a bit too.

 

Shipping goals the way we are and not scoring is only going to end one way. No club is too big to go down as they say, next year it could easily be us at this rate.

[chalkpie]

As an elementary orchestra teacher who starts kids in 4th grade and has them for 5th as well, regardless of the bunch I get, there is always substantial progress shown. I literally take them from nothing in the beginning of 4th to a spring concert at the end of 5th grade that has parents weeping for joy and in awe of their accomplishments (yes I am proud and quite good at my job). Bottom line is my job would be in sincere jeopardy IF substantial progress wasn't shown in two years, and tenure system aside, they would most likely find a replacement. As a teacher, I am only as good as my last concert, and it is up to me to inspire and guide my students to achieve an ultra high level of playing, and I make sure that happens. I also do not make millions $$$ per year either (unfortunately)

 

What parallels can I draw from what I do to EFC? Well, Roberto has had three years with this team, and the results speak for themselves. This latest match against Man United should (on paper) have been Evertons greatest match display based on three years of progress, leadership, teamwork, etc in the same manner that my upcoming 5th grade spring concert will be (and should be). What we witnessed was one of the teams worst displays, and almost zero sense of any progress made whatsoever. If this is what I presented in May, I would have some serious problems on multiple levels. As a veteran of 20 years and a musician for basically my entire existence, I am consistently tweaking my methods, plans, ideas, to achieve an even higher level. If I was a pigheaded person who refused to alter my thinking, I would no doubt be an ineffective teacher.

 

In effect, RM is a teacher to this team. His inability to alter his failing methodologies and show progress is in effect a failed campaign. Most of us would lose our positions after two or three years if our end product was consistent with what Martinez has shown.

[Lowensda]

As an elementary orchestra teacher who starts kids in 4th grade and has them for 5th as well, regardless of the bunch I get, there is always substantial progress shown. I literally take them from nothing in the beginning of 4th to a spring concert at the end of 5th grade that has parents weeping for joy and in awe of their accomplishments (yes I am proud and quite good at my job). Bottom line is my job would be in sincere jeopardy IF substantial progress wasn't shown in two years, and tenure system aside, they would most likely find a replacement. As a teacher, I am only as good as my last concert, and it is up to me to inspire and guide my students to achieve an ultra high level of playing, and I make sure that happens. I also do not make millions $$$ per year either (unfortunately)

 

What parallels can I draw from what I do to EFC? Well, Roberto has had three years with this team, and the results speak for themselves. This latest match against Man United should (on paper) have been Evertons greatest match display based on three years of progress, leadership, teamwork, etc in the same manner that my upcoming 5th grade spring concert will be (and should be). What we witnessed was one of the teams worst displays, and almost zero sense of any progress made whatsoever. If this is what I presented in May, I would have some serious problems on multiple levels. As a veteran of 20 years and a musician for basically my entire existence, I am consistently tweaking my methods, plans, ideas, to achieve an even higher level. If I was a pigheaded person who refused to alter my thinking, I would no doubt be an ineffective teacher.

 

In effect, RM is a teacher to this team. His inability to alter his failing methodologies and show progress is in effect a failed campaign. Most of us would lose our positions after two or three years if our end product was consistent with what Martinez has shown.

 

[chalkpie]

Thanks. I think we can all draw parallels to what we do, our own expectations, our own failures (and how we address them), our successes, etc

[markjazzbassist]

Thanks. I think we can all draw parallels to what we do, our own expectations, our own failures (and how we address them), our successes, etc

 

yes wait till next week you see chalkpie out :shaking fist: posters at your school. i said i wanted Satie regardless of the age of those children. the school board will hear about this!

[chalkpie]

 

yes wait till next week you see chalkpie out :shaking fist: posters at your school. i said i wanted Satie regardless of the age of those children. the school board will hear about this!

 

Ha - early retirement?

 

Probably could pull off one of the Gnossiennes if it weren't for the crazy accidentals!

[markjazzbassist]

 

Ha - early retirement?

 

Probably could pull off one of the Gnossiennes if it weren't for the crazy accidentals!

 

i'm partial to the gymnopedies but back on thread we've got till the summer to find out. unless moshiri/bill are working secretly to bring in pellegrini or someone. they did pull off the whole new owner thing and we were all shocked. they could be doing the same with the manager.

[MikeO]

As an elementary orchestra teacher who starts kids in 4th grade and has them for 5th as well, regardless of the bunch I get, there is always substantial progress shown. I literally take them from nothing in the beginning of 4th to a spring concert at the end of 5th grade that has parents weeping for joy and in awe of their accomplishments (yes I am proud and quite good at my job). Bottom line is my job would be in sincere jeopardy IF substantial progress wasn't shown in two years, and tenure system aside, they would most likely find a replacement. As a teacher, I am only as good as my last concert, and it is up to me to inspire and guide my students to achieve an ultra high level of playing, and I make sure that happens. I also do not make millions $$$ per year either (unfortunately)

 

What parallels can I draw from what I do to EFC? Well, Roberto has had three years with this team, and the results speak for themselves. This latest match against Man United should (on paper) have been Evertons greatest match display based on three years of progress, leadership, teamwork, etc in the same manner that my upcoming 5th grade spring concert will be (and should be). What we witnessed was one of the teams worst displays, and almost zero sense of any progress made whatsoever. If this is what I presented in May, I would have some serious problems on multiple levels. As a veteran of 20 years and a musician for basically my entire existence, I am consistently tweaking my methods, plans, ideas, to achieve an even higher level. If I was a pigheaded person who refused to alter my thinking, I would no doubt be an ineffective teacher.

 

In effect, RM is a teacher to this team. His inability to alter his failing methodologies and show progress is in effect a failed campaign. Most of us would lose our positions after two or three years if our end product was consistent with what Martinez has shown.

 

Interesting analogy but doesn't work for me.

 

Firstly Roberto wasn't taking on beginners and secondly your orchestra aren't in competition with nineteen other orchestras; they're just trying to improve themselves with your guidance which they obviously do.

 

Comparison would be if you give the man twenty-two talentless individuals and asked them to put on an exhibition match they'd be shit. Two years practice later they'd put on a better show.

[Matt]

Interesting analogy but doesn't work for me.

 

Firstly Roberto wasn't taking on beginners and secondly your orchestra aren't in competition with nineteen other orchestras; they're just trying to improve themselves with your guidance which they obviously do.

 

Comparison would be if you give the man twenty-two talentless individuals and asked them to put on an exhibition match they'd be shit. Two years practice later they'd put on a better show.

thought it was a very good analogy. Chalkie evolves to adapt and helps people grow, Roberto had not. The standards and competition are irrelevant, the point is to stay agile to succeed.

[MikeO]

thought it was a very good analogy. Chalkie evolves to adapt and helps people grow, Roberto had not. The standards and competition are irrelevant, the point is to stay agile to succeed.

 

But his orchestra has no competition, Everton do. Fundamental difference.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

 

Moyes averaged 57 points in his last three seasons with us and then we got 72 when he left, think it's a bit of a stretch to put that improvement down to him personally; though he did gift us six in the United games, I'll give him that.

Sorry I should have been clearer in what I meant by the Moyes effect. I am not for one minute suggesting the attacking flair had anything to do with him

 

I meant that under Moyes they were extremely well drilled and well organised to the extent every single player knew what his job was and who he was picking up at corners etc

It was just second nature to them but over time that understanding has eroded due to no longer putting the hours in on the training ground

 

Under Moyes there was a terrific team spirit, a lot of the players would run through a brick wall for the manager and there was a clear bond between the players , sadly this also seems to have slowly ebbed away

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/whats-causing-evertons-current-pressing-11147573

 

In other words nobody has got a clue what they are supposed to be doing

[Hafnia]

Take a look at @BallysBoots's Tweet:

[Romey 1878]

 

Just fuck off, Roberto, fuck right off.

[Hafnia]

 

Just fuck off, Roberto, fuck right off.

 

sometimes it takes a stat to really hit home - if ever a stat had P45 that is that one... someone send it to Kenwright & Moshiri.

[EFC-Paul]

I obviously don't know the man personally (I'd have banjo'd him if I did!) but under this over the top Mr nice guy routine I think lies a petulant smacked arse who thinks he's always right

 

Why should Baines take responsibility for speaking the truth and not himself for his shite performances as a manager and what nearly most Evertonians pundits and general football fans think and can see... Tit

Edited April 7, 2016 by EFC-Paul

[Lowensda]

I'm with Paul on that.

 

You get the impression, when that went public, Baines was called into the office like a child and told off.

 

Wouldn't surprise me if the likes of Baines wanted out this summer, if the joker's still in charge.

 

Edit: Bet they didn't call Lukaku in after his comments. I'm guessing that's because

a ) He's too valuable to the team

b ) Didn't directly aim the lack of ambition back at the club

Edited April 7, 2016 by Lowensda

[Hafnia]

I obviously don't know the man personally (I'd have banjo'd him if I did!) but under this over the top Mr nice guy routine I think lies a petulant smacked arse who thinks he's always right

 

Why should Baines take responsibility for speaking the truth and not himself for his shite performances as a manager and what nearly most Evertonians pundits and general football fans think and can see... Tit

 

Hmmm I believe there are a few managers like that - Old Roy Hodgson for one... his nice guy act has dropped though, I'm sure Steve Bruce is meant to be a nasty piece of work , I may have dreamed it.

 

The nagging thing I had with Roberto like Moyes before him was that he was a lower level footballer. Don't get me wrong, many great managers weren't good players. The problem can be the "chip on the shoulder", they like players in their own image who are making it at the highest level.

 

Moyes loved his "hard working honest players" - Martinez loves his "players expressing themselves" - anyone doing the opposite is an issue. Put simply - if Martinez went up against Moyes on the pitch Roberto would be looking to nutmeg Moyes and Moyes would be launching into him. Its all about the ego.

 

Fact is - managing Everton F.C was the biggest thing to happen to them at the stage of their careers - they needed to remember that. Its not about them.

 

What has annoyed me about Martinez is that he gives the impression that anyone questioning him is a philistine - "how dare they question me - I am the only Spanish manager in the premier league - I am from the best footballing nation - more than that I am Catalan - I represent Barcelona's ideologies in this league." - you can imagine that going through his mind.

 

As I say there will be some interesting biographies to come out in years to come.