Martinez - Direction?

[adziom]

9 points off 4th, 9 points off bottom 3. Mid table side with one of the most talented sides. That's how you judge a manager. Look at ranieri. Mahrez, vardy the only real class players. Drink water and schmeichel are solid too. But he gets the most out of them and the system is designed to do so. to me that's the sign of a good managers same with watford. Same with palace. Those rosters are average. Managers are the difference for them. Not so for us.

 

Ranieri is a very experienced manager though and Leicester's season has been a fluke, not in the sense that they don't deserve to be where they are, because the league table doesn't lie, but in the sense that the chances of them having all of their players fit and in their best form all season as well as catching opponents at the right time and getting the rub of the green in close matches like when they played us, were minimal. Not that I want to take anything away from them, their players and manager have done fantastic, but the way the league has been this season has made them look even better than they are.

 

Martinez has built a very good side that aren't getting the results they deserve. I was floored by what we saw today but as long as we have Stones (a Moyes signing but a Martinez player), Barkley (substitute to England international under Martinez), Lukaku (brought to the club by Martinez on loan then permanently), Deulofeu (another Roberto player) in this side, we're only a bit of luck and a few changes away from success.

 

As horrible is it is to watch this side with such talent throw away points, the reason for it is that he's put together such an exciting side in the first place. And they're a young side too, inconsistency is to be expected.

 

That's not to excuse the problems though, persisting with out of form players and failing to manage football matches. While I believe we are only small tweaks away from being a force to be reckoned with, those tweaks still have to happen or the potential comes to nothing.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

The only problem with that is that Moyes wouldn't have put this squad together.

 

We really need to stop these Moyes references. Not solely aimed at you Dunc, but whoever else makes them. He had a good decade, thanks and all that.

 

He's had 2 jobs since he left us...sacked from them both.

You are correct Moyes would not have had the money to put this squad together

[MikeO]

You are correct Moyes would not have had the money to put this squad together

 

And when he had money at United he spent it very wisely as we all know.

[Newty82]

You are correct Moyes would not have had the money to put this squad together

Oh Jesus. And suddenly I remember why I stay away so much these days! Bring back work tomorrow...I need it back!!!

[Mogsy]

Individual our defenders are excellent, but collectively they are total shite at the moment! Is it down to roberto? Partly, but there is no leadership there at all, with jags out nobody is marshalling that defence. Bainesy and Coleman are to quiet plus they are off on attacks all the time(which isn't a criticism), stones is to young and mori is to new, so that leaves us with Tim who I personally think doesn't even come close to sorting out his defence! We need a leader in there, really speaking two, in case one is injured, we have none at the moment, I think it is critical that we get a new keeper who also needs to be very vocal and a new CB who isn't afraid to boss everyone around.

[Finn balor]

No don't want moyes back at all. Today was a game most neutral fans will wonder what the problem is. End to end. Sounds mad but we got had off to a poor penalty decision. The squad is super talented but unfortunately the blame lies on Martinez. Defensively we are all over the place. Because we are too offensive . Giving the ball away in stupid positions all the time. Too rigid in his formation.

[Hafnia]

You are correct Moyes would not have had the money to put this squad together

Martinez has spent pretty much what he has sold. No different to Moyes.

 

People think he has been given 28m to buy lukaku whilst forgetting he sold fellaini to do it.

 

I gave moyes 4 years, it doesn't mean I'll give roberto 4 years but I will draw relevance to it. He can knock his arrogant ways on the head, that's for sure.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Hafnia

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

https://twitter.com/philmcnulty/status/681619576023560192

 

100% agree with this

[Craigyboy08]

Martinez is very good attacking manager as we can see with how many goals Everton have scored this year already and if we could defend we would be top 4 now. Everton need to address only the defensive side of our game and that has to start with the coaches, whatever it is they are relaying to the players is clearly not good enough, the players in the back 4 have bags of ability and are more than capable of producing clean sheets, (need a leader in there).

 

For me investing in quality coaching staff is as important as investing in players, so bringing coaching staff from Wigan with Martinez which guided Wigan to relegation is strange to me, Kenwright see potential in Martinez as a manager and that is all that should have come. Everton before Martinez were a solid defensive side lacking in attacking creativity at times but Martinez does bring this to Everton and it worked in his first season as the defensive ethic was still in place and it had us all believing but over time the defensive solidarity diminished as coaching staff which come with him have put their mark on the team, better defensive coaching staff need to be hired.

 

Super frustrated with Everton against Stoke yesterday. I am a big fan of John Stones he is top quality but making a lung in the box like he did when the angle was all but lost to Arnautovic to score only leaves the potential for the ref to give a penalty regardless to the slight touch Stones managed to get on the ball. I have lost all confidence of Howard in goal these days, so many errors which are costing use dearly.

 

Anyhow i just wanted to air some thoughts of mine as I'm super frustrated as we all are.

[Guest rusty747]

Howard has to be dropped, new defensive coach and system needed asap and Martinez needs to give his head a wobble with regard to game management.

[Hafnia]

I'm losing patience with him is what I will say.

[Romey 1878]

Super frustrated with Everton against Stoke yesterday. I am a big fan of John Stones he is top quality but making a lung in the box like he did when the angle was all but lost to Arnautovic to score only leaves the potential for the ref to give a penalty regardless to the slight touch Stones managed to get on the ball. I have lost all confidence of Howard in goal these days, so many errors which are costing use dearly.

 

 

Tbf, an angle is never lost to score when the goalkeeper is Tim Howard. He's always capable of jumping out of the way.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/everton-boss-roberto-martinez-points-10659975

 

Apparently we know how to protect a lead!

[Shukes]

At least he recognises there is a bigger picture. Changing our goalkeeper wouldn't have changed much yesterday....Maybe the third, maybe not.

But changing our defense around or having a few concentrated coaching sessions with them and getting them to work as a unit....could make a huge difference to the second half of our season.

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

At least he recognises there is a bigger picture. Changing our goalkeeper wouldn't have changed much yesterday....Maybe the third, maybe not.

But changing our defense around or having a few concentrated coaching sessions with them and getting them to work as a unit....could make a huge difference to the second half of our season.

 

Does he though?

 

He has taken one of the meanest defences in the country, one full of international defenders, and transformed them into Wigans back 4

 

I personally don't think the blame can be totally put on Tim Howard but he is certainly a major contributor and he should have been dropped 18 months ago. We missed a trick not signing a keeper in the summer

[Hafnia]

 

Does he though?

 

He has taken one of the meanest defences in the country, one full of international defenders, and transformed them into Wigans back 4

 

I personally don't think the blame can be totally put on Tim Howard but he is certainly a major contributor and he should have been dropped 18 months ago. We missed a trick not signing a keeper in the summer

How? Has he told John Stones to forget he is £30m+ rated defender, or that coleman should play like he is at sligo? These are professional footballers.

 

I'm as pissed off as anyone but the constant reminders of Wigan is elitist snobbery. Is that why most people didn't want him? Because it's Wigan not Porto?

 

Look at the players who have come on so well under him... Stones, galloway, lukaku (massively), barkley, he has brought Barry into the side along with James mccarthy, let's not forget deulofeu... he got Cleverley for nothing.

 

There are many many positives yet his few downfalls are damning but that doesn't take away the great things he's done.

 

I'm not happy with him and he is frustrating me to the point I would maybe like to see who is out there who can get us playing to our potential but let's get sensible about things.

[pete0]

 

Does he though?

 

He has taken one of the meanest defences in the country, one full of international defenders, and transformed them into Wigans back 4

 

I personally don't think the blame can be totally put on Tim Howard but he is certainly a major contributor and he should have been dropped 18 months ago. We missed a trick not signing a keeper in the summer

The last couple of Moyes years the defense was rubbish. After Carsley left we conceded time after time on the left hand side because baines was no where near his position and no one convered. Jags distin is the worst partnership the clubs had in the prem. Jags would rather concede than get a yellow, offering no cover for distin. Have a look at the amount of clean sheets and there is no difference between moyes and Martinez. We were just as shit from set plays as well.

 

A new keeper alone would make a massive difference. Teams are confident when we have Tim in the net and that boost for the opposition makes our team have to work harder.

[pete0]

Yesterday only one goal was the fault of the team, and the main person was Howard. Terrible flap, from a man with no confidence.

1. Good goal. Had our defenders twisting. Probs be more composed or the opposition not confident enough of it coming off of we were in better form.

2. Worldie

3. Keeper flapped

4. Twatenberg

[nogs]

Everton need to address only the defensive side of our game and that has to start with the coaches, whatever it is they are relaying to the players is clearly not good enough, the players in the back 4 have bags of ability and are more than capable of producing clean sheets, (need a leader in there).

 

For me investing in quality coaching staff is as important as investing in players, so bringing coaching staff from Wigan with Martinez which guided Wigan to relegation is strange to me, Kenwright see potential in Martinez as a manager and that is all that should have come. Everton before Martinez were a solid defensive side lacking in attacking creativity at times but Martinez does bring this to Everton and it worked in his first season as the defensive ethic was still in place and it had us all believing but over time the defensive solidarity diminished as coaching staff which come with him have put their mark on the team, better defensive coaching staff need to be hired.

 

 

For me though the problem is all about philosophy. Martinez priorities possession and creativity going forward; he wants his teams to play a game that is easy on the eye, expansive and full of goals. It doesn't matter who your coaches are, if the manager is insisting on prioritising, say, touch, passing and movement during training, other areas of the game will begin to suffer.

 

By contrast, Moyes was a manager who prioritised defensive solidity and shape, his Everton sides were very well coached in being hard to break down. The counter balance to this was that we often looked a bit one dimensional going forward.

 

If we areto improve at the back, it has to come from the manager. Maybe a new defensive coach would help set the tone, but there needs to be a serious reevaluatiin of the emphasis put on defence during training. In particular, we need to work very, very hard on how to defend crosses and how to get back into shape when we lose the ball.

 

As an aside, the pundits on Football Focus were talking about how much shadow play work Flores does in training at Watford. Does anyone have any idea if Martinez does the same? It would certainly be one way we could improve our shape in transitions and defending set pieces.

[MC11]

He WONT get sacked and that's the problem that's why it's so frustrating reading this thread.

 

There's some absolute shite scribbled in here to.

[Hafnia]

He WONT get sacked and that's the problem that's why it's so frustrating reading this thread.

 

There's some absolute shite scribbled in here to.

Under the current board he has no reason to be sacked. He's a manager who is operating on a very modest budget and under those conditions like his manager before him he could not be fairly sacked.

 

As many times before I have to remind people "who is going to want to work under elstone and the wooden bunch upstairs?" Who in fact can be trusted to spend what little money we have as wisely?

 

Neutral observers are very complimentary about us as a club and we have yet to see what impact his philosophies have had at the youth level. The likes of Ledson and Kenny will be the first generation who have had enough time to show that.

 

If we have a board who backs a manager with 25m every year then yes he could be held accountable.

 

We need a new keeper, whether that be Robles or a n other. We need a creative player and we need someone to lead us on the pitch. Aside from that, if Martinez doesn't get a defensive coach sorted then he is signing his own p45 one way or another.

[Romey 1878]

For me there is so much to like about him being our manager. He talks a brilliant game. We play some cracking attacking football. He can attract exciting players to the club. He has the basis of a good philosophy that we'd all like to see succeed.

 

Then there are the downsides to him. He's a bullshitter that either refuses to be honest or genuinely believes what he says. He's stubborn to the point that it's costing us points week in, week out. His odd team selections. His weird substitutions, or a complete lack of them.

 

There are more (of both positive and negative), and I so want him to succeed here because his plus points are very positive but his negative points are slowly but surely breaking me.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Romey 1878

[nogs]

I think the bottom line is, under Martinez, unless he sorts out how we play at the back, we'll never be more than a mid-table side who play fancy football but ultimately flatter to deceive.

[Hafnia]

For me there is so much to like about him being our manager. He talks a brilliant game. We play some cracking attacking football. He can attract exciting players to the club. He has the basis of a good philosophy that we'd all like to see succeed.

 

Then there are the downsides to him. He's a bullshitter that either refuses to be honest or genuinely believes what he says. He's stubborn to the point that it's costing us points week in, week out. His odd team selections. His weird substitutions, or a complete lack of them.

 

There are more (of both positive and negative), and I so want him to succeed here because his plus points are very positive but his negative points are slowly but surely breaking me.

This is where I am with him. He's getting all the "I told you so" merchants coming out the woodwork.

 

I said at the time he would excite and frustrate in equal measure. That appears to be true. I want him to learn. His predecessor was loathe to do this, it was his way or no way.

[chalkpie]

I think the bottom line is, under Martinez, unless he sorts out how we play at the back, we'll never be more than a mid-table side who play fancy football but ultimately flatter to deceive.

True. Why? Because it's happening before our very eyes. Talk is cheap. There is more bullshit with Martinez than in Oklahoma and Texas combined.

Edited December 29, 2015 by chalkpie

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

The last couple of Moyes years the defense was rubbish. After Carsley left we conceded time after time on the left hand side because baines was no where near his position and no one convered. Jags distin is the worst partnership the clubs had in the prem. Jags would rather concede than get a yellow, offering no cover for distin. Have a look at the amount of clean sheets and there is no difference between moyes and Martinez. We were just as shit from set plays as well.

 

A new keeper alone would make a massive difference. Teams are confident when we have Tim in the net and that boost for the opposition makes our team have to work harder.

The reality is that in Moyes final season we conceded 40 goals all season , bettered only by City, Chelsea and Arsenal

[duncanmckenzieismagic]

How? Has he told John Stones to forget he is £30m+ rated defender, or that coleman should play like he is at sligo? These are professional footballers.

 

I'm as pissed off as anyone but the constant reminders of Wigan is elitist snobbery. Is that why most people didn't want him? Because it's Wigan not Porto?

 

Look at the players who have come on so well under him... Stones, galloway, lukaku (massively), barkley, he has brought Barry into the side along with James mccarthy, let's not forget deulofeu... he got Cleverley for nothing.

 

There are many many positives yet his few downfalls are damning but that doesn't take away the great things he's done.

 

I'm not happy with him and he is frustrating me to the point I would maybe like to see who is out there who can get us playing to our potential but let's get sensible about things.

I have no idea how, probably a combination of piss poor training ,naive tactics and standing by a shite keeper way beyond his sell by date

 

I can't see how you can say that comparing our defensive frailties to Wigan is elitist snobbery when the similarities are there for all to see

 

As Romey says there is a lot to like about Martinez and I admire his philosophy however until he accepts that the art of defending is an integral part of the game we will remain a mid table side

[MikeO]

Hate to keep harking back to it but this time in 1983 we were abject shite, Philip Carter kept the faith against massive media and fan pressure (which makes current unrest look an irrelevance) and look what happened.

 

Different times now admittedly but I really feel we are a few tweaks away from an excellent side, the biggest of which for me is that we need Jags back.

 

Talk of sacking the manager and relegation fights are absurd over-reactions imo.

 

Edit: Wish the internet had been invented back then so we could search back and "out" the doubters (although most of you guys weren't born ).

[milesey05]

Hate to keep harking back to it but this time in 1983 we were abject shite, Philip Carter kept the faith against massive media and fan pressure (which makes current unrest look an irrelevance) and look what happened.

 

Different times now admittedly but I really feel we are a few tweaks away from an excellent side, the biggest of which for me is that we need Jags back.

 

Talk of sacking the manager and relegation fights are absurd over-reactions imo.

Hey Mike,

 

One and a half seasons have gone by and we are still bickering/ questioning Roberto's direction for our club?

 

We all know the guy wants the best and in his heart believes he can deliver but. .....it's those simple tweaks I don't think he is capable of.

[MikeO]

Hey Mike,

 

One and a half seasons have gone by and we are still bickering/ questioning Roberto's direction for our club?

 

We all know the guy wants the best and in his heart believes he can deliver but. .....it's those simple tweaks I don't think he is capable of.

 

Nobody believed Kendall was capable of them either, and they thought we needed major surgery rather than simple tweaks.

 

I kept the faith then and I'm keeping the faith now. 13,000 odd at Goodison for a 0-0 v Coventry? It's not often been worse, we are so much better than we were then, so much potential. To make a change now would be knee-jerk madness.